RE: Western attributes for Chinese herbs

[Guest guest]

I guess the real question is what does a " tonic for the immune system "

really mean? The immune system is such a vast array of complicated factors,

that merely stating that something boosts or modulates the immune system (or

is a tonic) is pretty meaningless at this point. I would imagine that a

large percentage of medicinals under the appropriate testing conditions

would show a boost in the immune system.

 

 

 

This is precisely why I've always been unimpressed with such superficial

Western herb attributes for Chinese medicinals. The term " Anti-inflammatory "

also has the same issue. Inflammation is complicated and the markers that

are associated with it are vast. There are so many herbs ranging from huang

lian to fu zi that are said to be anti-inflammatory. As exciting as this is

for some this is completely useless to me.

 

This is not to discount the work of great herbalists like John Chen who

actually understand the details of this stuff, but I think we need to be

careful thinking we can run our finger down a list of herbs (under some

Western action) and think that a chosen medicinal will actually have this

effect in our patient.

 

 

 

Of course things get a little more exciting when we can actually pinpoint

the mechanism of action of the herb under the broad category of something

like " boosts the immune system " . For example, does a given medicinal work on

the mast cells and if so in what way, does it inhibit the production or the

release of histamine etc.. If we are going to attempt to look at things

through a Western lens it seems imperative for we step up and not only learn

enough about Western medicine to understand the details of what boosts the

immune system means but how to evaluating medicinals in this context.

 

 

 

I just get the impression that many people are using such superficial

research/thinking to justify an herb's action within a Western medical

paradigm. This is precisely why I prefer the majority of the time to keep

things in a Chinese medicine system which accounts for the intricacies of

the individual. This way every herb can boost the immune system (or not).

Hence I agree with what Stephen previously said,

 

" any herb is anti-anything-it-needs-to-be when given to the right

person, at the right time, in the right amount "

 

 

 

Comments?

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of alon marcus

Saturday, October 24, 2009 9:52 AM

 

Re:More on Weil Whacked

 

 

 

 

 

Doest astragalus has a western traditional use? Is that tradition

conceder astragalus as a tonic for immune system?

 

 

400 29th St. Suite 419

Oakland Ca 94609

 

 

 

alonmarcus <alonmarcus%40wans.net>

 

 

[Guest guest]

Just one quick comment.

 

This is just another reason why I think using 'tonification' for bu3補

is not the best choice of translation, as people immediately think of

'tonics' and get the wrong idea vis a vis Western herbal concepts.

Jethro Kloss, for example, considered such herbs as golden seal (which

Chinese medicine would consider most likely to be a bitter, draining

medicinal on the order of huang lian/coptis) to be a 'tonic' as it

increased gastric motility and secretion (physiologically speaking).

 

 

On Oct 25, 2009, at 7:03 AM, wrote:

 

>

>

> I guess the real question is what does a " tonic for the immune system "

> really mean? The immune system is such a vast array of complicated

> factors,

> that merely stating that something boosts or modulates the immune

> system (or

> is a tonic) is pretty meaningless at this point. I would imagine

> that a

> large percentage of medicinals under the appropriate testing

> conditions

> would show a boost in the immune system.

>

> This is precisely why I've always been unimpressed with such

> superficial

> Western herb attributes for Chinese medicinals. The term " Anti-

> inflammatory "

> also has the same issue. Inflammation is complicated and the markers

> that

> are associated with it are vast. There are so many herbs ranging

> from huang

> lian to fu zi that are said to be anti-inflammatory. As exciting as

> this is

> for some this is completely useless to me.

>

> This is not to discount the work of great herbalists like John Chen

> who

> actually understand the details of this stuff, but I think we need

> to be

> careful thinking we can run our finger down a list of herbs (under

> some

> Western action) and think that a chosen medicinal will actually have

> this

> effect in our patient.

>

> Of course things get a little more exciting when we can actually

> pinpoint

> the mechanism of action of the herb under the broad category of

> something

> like " boosts the immune system " . For example, does a given medicinal

> work on

> the mast cells and if so in what way, does it inhibit the production

> or the

> release of histamine etc.. If we are going to attempt to look at

> things

> through a Western lens it seems imperative for we step up and not

> only learn

> enough about Western medicine to understand the details of what

> boosts the

> immune system means but how to evaluating medicinals in this context.

>

> I just get the impression that many people are using such superficial

> research/thinking to justify an herb's action within a Western medical

> paradigm. This is precisely why I prefer the majority of the time to

> keep

> things in a Chinese medicine system which accounts for the

> intricacies of

> the individual. This way every herb can boost the immune system (or

> not).

> Hence I agree with what Stephen previously said,

>

> " any herb is anti-anything-it-needs-to-be when given to the right

> person, at the right time, in the right amount "

>

> Comments?

>

> -

>

>

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Good point. Astragalus and huang lian were a good pair in treating hiv for a

while. But no one could stomach huang lian, so we made it into pills to take

along with the teas.

 

--- On Sun, 10/25/09, <zrosenbe wrote:

 

<zrosenbe

Re: Western attributes for Chinese herbs

 

Sunday, October 25, 2009, 6:29 PM

 

 

Just one quick comment.

 

 

This is just another reason why I think using 'tonification' for bu3補

is not the best choice of translation, as people immediately think of

'tonics' and get the wrong idea vis a vis Western herbal concepts.

Jethro Kloss, for example, considered such herbs as golden seal (which

Chinese medicine would consider most likely to be a bitter, draining

 

medicinal on the order of huang lian/coptis) to be a 'tonic' as it

 

increased gastric motility and secretion (physiologically speaking).

 

 

 

 

 

On Oct 25, 2009, at 7:03 AM, wrote:

[Guest guest]

I agree with the thinking here in terms of " any herb is

anti-anything-it-needs-to-be when given to the right person, at the right time,

in the right amount " .

 

To me this means that we have to base the treatment on proper differential

diagnosis.

 

I do think it is important, some times, to be able to verify a treatment result

via certain western tests. For example, patients suffering with rheumatoid

arthritis often have elevated ESR (erythrocyte sedimentation rate) and CRP

(C-reactive protein). Now if we are able to alleviate the pain in a patient

suffering with RA using Chinese herbal medicine, and we are able to see these

numbers go back to normal, our treatment gains a lot more weight and credibility

within the western community. This is a good thing. It does not mean that we

have to necessarily figure out which herbs are the ones that lowered the

inflammation and then use these particular herbs for every single RA case, it

just tells us that CHinese herbs can do it. As we all know the range of how RA

can manifest is large, ranging from wind-cold-damp invasion, to cold

transforming to heat, to liver and kidney yang exhaustion, to stasis of phlegm

and blood. Obviously the herbs to treat these varying patterns will differ, but

the end result of less pain and, hopefully, reduced inflammatory markers will be

the same.

 

Having western lab data to verify our results is good, as it strengthens

evidence based medicine. We just need to educate people that the result was

achieved on pattern differentiation.

 

That being said, I have seen some practitioners gain excellent results by

combining western known attributes of herbs in with a properly designed formula

that is based on pattern. The immune suppressing qualities of Lei Gong Teng for

RA is a good example of this.

 

Trevor

[Guest guest]

I thought I would add some thinking to this.....

 

I think that it is important to realize, like Jason pointed out, that systems

like the immune system are very complex, and to say an herb has something like

immune tonifying or modulating effects doesn't mean much unless we are being

more specific.

 

I do think that certain herbs like Huang Qi, Ji Xue Teng, and Nu Zhen Zi have

immune boosting functions- in that they increase white blood cell counts, which

is a very specific immune system function. Does it mean that they increase

B-cell antibodies, that are a learned ability based on previous exposure to an

antigen? Probably not. Can all herbs increase white cell counts? I think it

would be foolish and misleading to think so.

 

Where would such a function come in handy? Well in regards to my last statement

about lei gong teng and it's immune suppressing quality, (which means it is

actually lowering white cell counts). Herbs like the above mentioned can

actually protect and guard against damage done from LGT's ability to lower white

cell counts. This method is used in clinics, particularly by Mazin. Having

regular blood tests done throughout treatment can show/ verify this. This is one

reason that many western specialists are comfortable with someone like Mazin

treating their recalcitrant RA patients with such potentially deadly herbs like

LGT. He can prove both efficacy and safety.

 

Now if someone catches a flu or common cold, does this mean that their white

blood cell counts are lowered? Not usually! They are most likely elevated. Hence

the use of the " immune boosting " effects of Huang Qi, in a western sense, would

NOT make sense :-)

 

Again, treatment based on a proper differential diagnosis will help determine

the right herb, whether it is in western or eastern medicine. A herb that

matches a patients CM pattern and as well fits the western research is, in my

mind, combining the best of two worlds.

 

Trevor