Guest guest Posted October 29, 2009 Report Share Posted October 29, 2009 <<<I think it's important to remember that we don't treat disease. We direct energy>>>. Dear group members: I wonder if this is the general norm or individually-based thought. Chinese medicine can definitely treat diseases or it had been extinguished long time ago. Jin Gui Yao Lue, written 1800 years ago and the world's first ever book discussed internal medicine, discussed over 43 diseases can be treated with formulas. Besides common cold, they range from malaria, jaundice, joint pain (rheumotoid), vomiting, diarrhea, and most major gynecological issues. Many other symptoms such as abdominal fullness, lung atrophy, swelling are also treatable. It basically covered most major internal diseases in cardio, respiratory, digesive, metabolistic, reproductive, neurological, and immune systems. Over the following hundreds of years, dozens and dozens of literature discussed many other diseases including cancer ENT, derma. were written, documented, taught and their knowledge were used by fellow TCM doctors. The recent three hundred years the school of Warm Disease had developed and half a dozen great literature had put forth theories that targeted at tackling pandemic. The theories, formulas, and knowledge were applied to successfully treat pandemic or any other influ. Almost all influ can be treated with Chinese herbal medicine alone, without the benefit of vaccine or tamiflu. For example, no causalties had been reported if the confirmed influ patients of H1N1 were treated with Chinese medicine so far. I hope the above is considered evidence by evidence-based advocates. <<<we direct Qi>>> I guess it is referred to the effect of acup and it sounds mystic. Unfortunately, today only clinical efficacy counts. My 2 cents Sung, Yuk-ming Phd (Chengdu U TCM) PCEd (HKU), L Ac (Hong Kong) > > I think it's important to remember that we don't treat disease. We direct energy. As for training and license, I also did not wish to produce a bachelors degree to get into OCOM or PCOM and then spend 4 more years to have a license that allows me to do the same as a stock boy especially at 50 and after 25 years of practicing. The important thing is the client knows you have some qualification. I feel I was fortunate to find NHI in Encinitas and get certified by a school and teacher that are state certified. At least this gives my clients confidence that I have some verifiable training. > Patrick Edgmon > --- On Sat, 10/24/09, wrote: > > > Re: Nov 2009 Student Edition of Acupuncture Today > > Saturday, October 24, 2009, 12:43 PM > > > > > > > ?> > > > > > I believe tne distinction that has to be made regarding #4 is that the stock person can sell the herb but cannot say that any particular customer/patient has the condition that calls for that herb. I assume this is also an issue in much of below. > > Doug > > > > , Al Stone <al@> wrote: > > > > > > Can we flush out these laws regulating the CM practice of herbal medicine? > > > I'm confounded. > > > > > > Are any of these statements correct? > > > > > > 1. Herbs are part of our scope of practice in California, so when we use > > > herbs as part of our practice in support of one-to-one relationships, we are > > > protected by malpractice insurance. > > > 2. If I were to drop my acupuncture license, and still use herbs to help > > > people, I would need product liability insurance instead. > > > 3. Is doing a CM intake and prescribing herbs practicing medicine without > > > a license if I have no license of any sort? > > > 4. Acupuncturists in Ohio cannot provide herbal medicines, but presumably > > > the stock boy at the local health foods store can? > > > > > > -al. > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 8:48 AM, alon marcus <alonmarcus@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are not allowed to Prescribe herbs as an LAc as well. You cannot > > > > practice herbal medicine as medicine anywhere regardless of LAc > > > > license. So would you want to spend money on some kind of license > > > > anyhow. Herbalists have been practicing for many years you can do the > > > > same. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > , DAOM > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > http://twitter. com/algancao > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I beg to differ....Ebers Papyrus is about twice as old and evidence suggests that it is based on texts that were much older. And there were a whole slew of other texts written in Greece, the Middle East, etc. that were written before Jin Gui Yao Lue, in fact isn't the Shang Han Lun older....? , " Yuk Ming " <sxm2649 wrote: > Jin Gui Yao Lue, written 1800 years ago and the world's first ever book discussed internal medicine, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 30, 2009 Report Share Posted October 30, 2009 I *think* this may be a USA-thing as in most states, we are not allowed to say that we " treat, cure, mitigate " any " disease " as only MDs/DOs are allowed to say that...so we come up with different phrasing. However, I personally feel that we do within our scope - I'm sure we all see it in our clinics every day...we just can't say that we do in most instances. I'm not sure I, personally, would make such a limiting statement that I only " direct energy " - something that may, in a limited way, describe acupuncture but would certainly not cover the use of herbal therapy nor diet/lifestyle recommendations, etc., and so therefore doesn't adequately describe the complex system of Chinese medicine that we practice (imho). Joy On Thu, Oct 29, 2009 at 6:57 PM, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 wrote: > > > > <<<I think it's important to remember that we don't treat disease. We > direct energy>>>. > > Dear group members: I wonder if this is the general norm or > individually-based thought. Chinese medicine can definitely treat diseases > or it had been extinguished long time ago. > > Jin Gui Yao Lue, written 1800 years ago and the world's first ever book > discussed internal medicine, discussed over 43 diseases can be treated with > formulas. Besides common cold, they range from malaria, jaundice, joint pain > (rheumotoid), vomiting, diarrhea, and most major gynecological issues. Many > other symptoms such as abdominal fullness, lung atrophy, swelling are also > treatable. It basically covered most major internal diseases in cardio, > respiratory, digesive, metabolistic, reproductive, neurological, and immune > systems. > > [post snipped] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Dear Yuk Ming, I know this and you know this. But in the US the AMA decides who treats disease. So myself being and herbalist, I'm only allowed to direct energy, now if that energy can help then that's great! Best Regards, Patrick Edgmon --- On Thu, 10/29/09, Yuk Ming <sxm2649 wrote: Yuk Ming <sxm2649 Re: Laws and practicing Thursday, October 29, 2009, 6:57 PM <<<I think it's important to remember that we don't treat disease. We direct energy>>>. Dear group members: I wonder if this is the general norm or individually- based thought. Chinese medicine can definitely treat diseases or it had been extinguished long time ago. Jin Gui Yao Lue, written 1800 years ago and the world's first ever book discussed internal medicine, discussed over 43 diseases can be treated with formulas. Besides common cold, they range from malaria, jaundice, joint pain (rheumotoid) , vomiting, diarrhea, and most major gynecological issues. Many other symptoms such as abdominal fullness, lung atrophy, swelling are also treatable. It basically covered most major internal diseases in cardio, respiratory, digesive, metabolistic, reproductive, neurological, and immune systems. Over the following hundreds of years, dozens and dozens of literature discussed many other diseases including cancer ENT, derma. were written, documented, taught and their knowledge were used by fellow TCM doctors. The recent three hundred years the school of Warm Disease had developed and half a dozen great literature had put forth theories that targeted at tackling pandemic. The theories, formulas, and knowledge were applied to successfully treat pandemic or any other influ. Almost all influ can be treated with Chinese herbal medicine alone, without the benefit of vaccine or tamiflu. For example, no causalties had been reported if the confirmed influ patients of H1N1 were treated with Chinese medicine so far. I hope the above is considered evidence by evidence-based advocates. <<<we direct Qi>>> I guess it is referred to the effect of acup and it sounds mystic. Unfortunately, today only clinical efficacy counts. My 2 cents Sung, Yuk-ming Phd (Chengdu U TCM) PCEd (HKU), L Ac (Hong Kong) > > I think it's important to remember that we don't treat disease. We direct energy. As for training and license, I also did not wish to produce a bachelors degree to get into OCOM or PCOM and then spend 4 more years to have a license that allows me to do the same as a stock boy especially at 50 and after 25 years of practicing. The important thing is the client knows you have some qualification. I feel I was fortunate to find NHI in Encinitas and get certified by a school and teacher that are state certified. At least this gives my clients confidence that I have some verifiable training. > Patrick Edgmon > --- On Sat, 10/24/09, wrote: > > > Re: Nov 2009 Student Edition of Acupuncture Today > > Saturday, October 24, 2009, 12:43 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ?> > > > > > I believe tne distinction that has to be made regarding #4 is that the stock person can sell the herb but cannot say that any particular customer/patient has the condition that calls for that herb. I assume this is also an issue in much of below. > > Doug > > > > , Al Stone <al@> wrote: > > > > > > Can we flush out these laws regulating the CM practice of herbal medicine? > > > I'm confounded. > > > > > > Are any of these statements correct? > > > > > > 1. Herbs are part of our scope of practice in California, so when we use > > > herbs as part of our practice in support of one-to-one relationships, we are > > > protected by malpractice insurance. > > > 2. If I were to drop my acupuncture license, and still use herbs to help > > > people, I would need product liability insurance instead. > > > 3. Is doing a CM intake and prescribing herbs practicing medicine without > > > a license if I have no license of any sort? > > > 4. Acupuncturists in Ohio cannot provide herbal medicines, but presumably > > > the stock boy at the local health foods store can? > > > > > > -al. > > > > > > On Sat, Oct 24, 2009 at 8:48 AM, alon marcus <alonmarcus@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You are not allowed to Prescribe herbs as an LAc as well. You cannot > > > > practice herbal medicine as medicine anywhere regardless of LAc > > > > license. So would you want to spend money on some kind of license > > > > anyhow. Herbalists have been practicing for many years you can do the > > > > same. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > , DAOM > > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > > http://twitter. com/algancao > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 It really doesn't matter which medical book is the oldest (they are all amazing and are the pride of our civilization). To the best of my knowledge, an Iranaian medical book written 900 years ago is one of the oldest. I agree with you Shang Han Lun was written earlier than JGYL. Although they were written by the same author in the same book at the same period of time, in logical order, SHL should be written earlier as it is about external diseases while the latter is about miscellaneous diseases. Sung, Yuk-ming Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 31, 2009 Report Share Posted October 31, 2009 Americans have done a whole lot more than the rest of the world in terms of development of Chinese medicine and I tip my hats to you. At least layman Americans expect something more than some Chalie Chan with a long pony tail in herbal shops in Chinatown. To be honest, to run a tiny herbal shop with a cute little cat lying in the counter in a small layback town in Wyoming or New Mexico is not bad. The most important thing is we know we can treat lupus, psorarsis, eczema, gyneco issues, H1N1, imptence, insomina, cardio etc and beat our wm counterpart in clinical efficacy. However, things needed to be done soon enough as they have attempted to detach acupuncture from herbal medicine and in no time herbal medicine becomes the only tool of treatment in CM. And we are left to treat untreatable or nonprofitable (fr viewpt of phramceutical giants)diseases like post-stroke sydrome or cancer(difficult but treatable). My 2 cents Sung, Yuk-ming Phd (Chengdu U TCM), PCEd(HKU), L Ac (Hong Kong) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Rather than say I move energy, which sounds pretty lame, I focus on what I treat. I treat patients, not disease. The difference isn't trivial. I was once told by a doctor that he shouldn't give me thyroid eventhough it might help because it would be treating the patient instead of the test. Karen S. Vaughan, L.Ac., MSTOM Registered Herbalist (AHG) Creationsgarden1 253 Garfield Place Brooklyn, NY 11215 (718) 622-6755 See my Acupuncture and Herbalism website at: _www.acupuncturebrooklyn.com_ (http://www.acupuncturebrooklyn.com/) Twitter: Herblady22 Facebook: Karen Vaughan and Facebook group: Swine Flu and Herbalism Stop Mountaintop Removal Mining: _www.Ilovemountains.org_ (http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizations/appvoices/campaign.jsp?campa\ ign_KEY=14105 & t=iLoveMountainsMAIN.dwt) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 6, 2009 Report Share Posted November 6, 2009 Karen, Of course the intention is always helping someone. But for the FDA and AMA using their references and phrasing of disease and healing could be detrimental if your not an MD. It's pretty fundamental that everything (one) operates with energy and a lot of people understand analogies about it so I use them. Sorry you find this lame, there are many ways and many work. Blessings, Patrick Edgmon --- On Thu, 11/5/09, creationsgarden1 <creationsgarden1 wrote: creationsgarden1 <creationsgarden1 Re: Laws and practicing Thursday, November 5, 2009, 9:58 PM  Rather than say I move energy, which sounds pretty lame, I focus on what I treat. I treat patients, not disease. The difference isn't trivial. I was once told by a doctor that he shouldn't give me thyroid eventhough it might help because it would be treating the patient instead of the test. Karen S. Vaughan, L.Ac., MSTOM Registered Herbalist (AHG) Creationsgarden1@ aol.com 253 Garfield Place Brooklyn, NY 11215 (718) 622-6755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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