Guest guest Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 There are some interesting differences in salt energetics that I'd appreciate getting some of your views on. I believe TCM classifies salt as cold Ayurveda classifies it as hot or warm Japanese macrobiotics ala Ohsawa classified it as the most yang (I wonder if this is consistent with Kanpo?) Any thoughts about the energetic differences in these. I've been bantering this on Herbal Hall and received some interesting views but none regarding energetics. Does TCM classify salt as cold - and does it not stimulate hydrochloric acid (hot)? Is there such a thing as something being yang and cold? Off hand, I can't imagine how this could be so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Hi Michael- According to the Neijing Suwen Chapter 22 salty tonifies the heart and purges the kidney. This means salty goes with the action of the fire phase - softening - and against the action of the kidneys - firming. This could be why salt(y flavors) are considered to be the most yang in Kanpo and in other systems. As far as I know, mangxiao is considered cold as far back as the SNBCJ, but rongyan qi is not mentioned there and is listed in later bencaos as cold. Hope that helps. -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. O.M. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On Nov 2, 2009, at 2:13 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > There are some interesting differences in salt energetics that I'd > appreciate getting some of your views on. > > I believe TCM classifies salt as cold > > Ayurveda classifies it as hot or warm > > Japanese macrobiotics ala Ohsawa classified it as the most yang (I > wonder if > this is consistent with Kanpo?) > > Any thoughts about the energetic differences in these. I've been > bantering > this on Herbal Hall and received some interesting views but none > regarding > energetics. > > Does TCM classify salt as cold - and does it not stimulate > hydrochloric acid > (hot)? > > Is there such a thing as something being yang and cold? Off hand, I > can't > imagine how this could be so. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Didn't Ohsawa classify yang based on the velocity of concentration force? For instance, apples are more yang (harder and smaller), while pineapples are more yin (softer and larger). Apples grow in more yin climates (temperate), so are balanced in nature by becoming more yang. People eat these yang fruits in yin climates. Pineapples grow in more yang climates (tropical), so are balanced in nature by becoming more yin. People eat these yin fruits in yang climates. If you look at it this way, salt is hard and concentrated and extremely yang. People who eat a lot of salt become more yang (hypertension.. LV yang rising/ LV heat (blood vessels harden). People who eat more sugar become more yin (diabetes and obesity (muscles soften). In TCM, salt is yin, connected with the KD (yin organ), is collected from dried up water-beds (water =yin) or salt-water or sea-vegetables. That which softens hardness, must be considered yin-natured, as yin counteracts yang. But, salt is also drying, which is a yang action. Salt can dry up ice. So, is this considered yin or yang? I personally would side with salt being yang within yin (warming and drying functionally, but yin-natured). Sweet might be considered yin within yang (cooling and moistening functionally, but yang-natured). Ayurvedic qualities of foods also takes into consideration what happens before and after the food is digested. I'm not sure if Chinese food therapy has that element. Also, ayurvedic medicine takes doshas (consitution) into account for food therapy, which is lacking in TCM (except for Korean Sa-sang therapy). I don't think we can compare the principles from the Neijing with the Macrobiotic philosophy, unless yin and yang are viewed consistently. What is yin in TCM could be yang in Macrobiotics and vice versa. K On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 1:32 PM, Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzakwrote: > > > Hi Michael- > > According to the Neijing Suwen Chapter 22 salty tonifies the heart > and purges the kidney. This means salty goes with the action of the > fire phase - softening - and against the action of the kidneys - > firming. This could be why salt(y flavors) are considered to be the > most yang in Kanpo and in other systems. As far as I know, mangxiao > is considered cold as far back as the SNBCJ, but rongyan qi is not > mentioned there and is listed in later bencaos as cold. > > Hope that helps. > > -Steve > > Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. O.M. > http://www.health-traditions.com > sbonzak <sbonzak%40pacificcollege.edu> > 773-470-6994 > > > On Nov 2, 2009, at 2:13 PM, Michael Tierra wrote: > > > There are some interesting differences in salt energetics that I'd > > appreciate getting some of your views on. > > > > I believe TCM classifies salt as cold > > > > Ayurveda classifies it as hot or warm > > > > Japanese macrobiotics ala Ohsawa classified it as the most yang (I > > wonder if > > this is consistent with Kanpo?) > > > > Any thoughts about the energetic differences in these. I've been > > bantering > > this on Herbal Hall and received some interesting views but none > > regarding > > energetics. > > > > Does TCM classify salt as cold - and does it not stimulate > > hydrochloric acid > > (hot)? > > > > Is there such a thing as something being yang and cold? Off hand, I > > can't > > imagine how this could be so. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 , Stephen Bonzak <stephenbonzak wrote: > > Hi Michael- > > According to the Neijing Suwen Chapter 22 salty tonifies the heart > and purges the kidney. Zhong Yao Da Ci Dian (Great Encyclopedia of Chinese Medicinals) says the following: Guang Ming Yan, crystal salt balanced; salty Dispels wind and brightens the eyes. Treats all types of head and face wind; sore red eyes; copious discharge and tearing. Yan, cooking salt cold; salty. nontoxic Enters stomach, kidney, large intestine, small intestine Actions: Promotes ejection, clears heat, cools the blood, and resolves toxin. Treats food accumulation in the upper stomach duct; painful distention of the stomach and the region of the heart; phlegm aggregation in the chest; urinary and fecal stoppage; bleeding of the gums; sore throat; toothache; eyescreen; sores; poisonous insect stings. Eric Brand blog: http://bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/index.php Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 I really appreciate all of your reflections on the varying energetics of salt. I think john, you've got it just right about the difference of macrobiotics and TCM. In my opinion, Ohsawa made an arrogant fundamental error in adopting his theories for the Western mind. He obviously didn't want to get caught in the web of an excess of one creates the other and the difficulty of explaining yin deficiency (yang within yin) phenomenon so I basically abandoned classifying things by temperature in favor of the high court of yin and yang. I think in general TCM avoids to classifying things as either yin or yang and is more comfortable hanging out at the lower level of practical energetics which involves the temperatures and other qualities. I guess the question that still nags me about macrobiotics is how much of Ohsawa's theories were Kanpo which I know in some regards does have a different perspective and emphasis than TCM? It seems to me the macrobiotic dietetics if one takes a true macrobiotic approach to dietetics and allows more animal and flesh foods, is a good elucidation of TCM dietetics, albeit more rigid. The Chinese favor white rice while the macrobiotic orientation was around brown rice. I remember when this was a burning question and I asked Miriam Lee about the use of white rice, lacking bran and minerals, she said it's easier to digest and all one has to do is eat it with meat to make up for what is missing. - Well almost. Strict macrobiotics is a " skinny " diet I would say partially from long term malabsorption of eating only brown rice. Any thoughts? I still interested in more thoughts on the energetics of salt. I want to write a blog on it because teaching a fusion of different ethnic herbal approaches this is one presents a fundamental stumbling block for students. I think these differences are only apparent and are really a difference in perspective which is what john is alluding to. One perspective is what a substance is as opposed to what it does and still another perspective considering the secondary tastes of Ayurveda is what happens to the body after it is and causes the initial reaction. In this sense Yin and Yang as a description becomes a little like appealing to a rationale that is too high and lofty to be of any practical significance. Michael On Behalf Of Tuesday, November 03, 2009 2:57 PM Re: energetics of salt Didn't Ohsawa classify yang based on the velocity of concentration force? For instance, apples are more yang (harder and smaller), while pineapples are more yin (softer and larger). Apples grow in more yin climates (temperate), so are balanced in nature by becoming more yang. People eat these yang fruits in yin climates. Pineapples grow in more yang climates (tropical), so are balanced in nature by becoming more yin. People eat these yin fruits in yang climates. If you look at it this way, salt is hard and concentrated and extremely yang. People who eat a lot of salt become more yang (hypertension.. LV yang rising/ LV heat (blood vessels harden). People who eat more sugar become more yin (diabetes and obesity (muscles soften). In TCM, salt is yin, connected with the KD (yin organ), is collected from dried up water-beds (water =yin) or salt-water or sea-vegetables. That which softens hardness, must be considered yin-natured, as yin counteracts yang. But, salt is also drying, which is a yang action. Salt can dry up ice. So, is this considered yin or yang? I personally would side with salt being yang within yin (warming and drying functionally, but yin-natured). Sweet might be considered yin within yang (cooling and moistening functionally, but yang-natured). Ayurvedic qualities of foods also takes into consideration what happens before and after the food is digested. I'm not sure if Chinese food therapy has that element. Also, ayurvedic medicine takes doshas (consitution) into account for food therapy, which is lacking in TCM (except for Korean Sa-sang therapy). I don't think we can compare the principles from the Neijing with the Macrobiotic philosophy, unless yin and yang are viewed consistently. What is yin in TCM could be yang in Macrobiotics and vice versa. K O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2009 Report Share Posted November 11, 2009 I remember from one of my professor's lecture at TCM school that traditionally white rice was only eaten by Chinese aristocrats because they were the only ones who could afford the extra labor to remove the bran. I liken this to early status of white flour and white sugar in Europe, when such things where more expensive than their unrefined counterparts and only affordable to upperclass people. In my mind, it's not difficult to see how white rice could have taken on it's " healthier " status. Interestingly, in India nowadays, to be diagnosed with diabetes is a sign of one's increased social status, some even announce their ailment with such dignity. According to the Mayo Clinic, South Asians have the highest rates of diabetes in the world. In all my travels in India, I have never been able to find brown rice. Given what we know about refined foods and diabetes, it seems obvious to me that white rice is a contributing factor. AS --- In Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2009 Report Share Posted November 12, 2009 I sort of remember a filial Confucian story about a son who was so bad, 'he even fed his parents brown rice'. Geoff , " amadeashakti " <lakukulu wrote: > In all my travels in India, I have never been able to find brown rice. Given what we know about refined foods and diabetes, it seems obvious to me that white rice is a contributing factor. > > AS > > --- In > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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