Lingering pathogens and vaccine-triggered autoimmune conditions

[Guest guest]

Greetings, all:

 

This is my first post to CHA, so if I transgress on any mores please be gentle.

 

I have a patient coming in this week with a Western diagnosis of Guillain-Barre

syndrome, with an onset in 2005 following a vaccine injection and increasing

severity of back and lower limb dysesthesia through the present. The patient

has recently upgraded his pain management method to fentanyl, and wishes to

avoid dependency on this level of medication - he is therefore coming to OM for

the first time.

 

Sight unseen I am lacking the relevant information to assemble a pattern

diagnosis, but I am curious as to whether the vaccine trigger for the main

complaint would meet the criterion of a lingering pathogen by TCM standards, and

whether anyone has experienced success in alleviating or halting the progression

of autoimmune conditions through expelling lingering pathogens. My education on

Xiao Chai Hu Tang covered a list of appropriate symptoms indicating its use, but

also included the notion that it is used for all sorts of " off-label " cases when

lingering pathogens are suspected. Your thoughts are appreciated.

 

Best,

David

[Guest guest]

Hi David,

 

 

 

In my opinion, labeling something as a lurking pathogens is a double edged

sword, especially when doing so based on a disease and/ or event. The

presentation is still the most important determinant.

 

 

 

Quite simply, any condition of a chronic nature (with some sort of pathogen,

e.g. heat, cold, wind, damp etc) can be a " lingering pathogen " . However,

this label gives us little additional insight into how to treat it. Actually

any formula that deals with pathogens of a chronic nature can be considered

as addressing " lurking pathogens " in a general sense. Consequently, giving

something like XCHT because we say it is a " lurking pathogen " is simply

incorrect.

 

 

 

Therefore, one must still do a normal diagnosis. If one is familiar with the

specific lurking pathogens theories, e.g. such as discussed by physicians

like Liu Bao-Yi, and the specific pattern fits, then by all means one should

utilize it. However, just because there is a vaccination involved one cannot

assume that these lurking pathogens treatment strategies will be effective.

Furthermore, do not rule out merely tonifying the patient if that is how the

presentation presents.

 

 

 

Finally, because of the confusion of this term, specifically its tendency to

be used in a very general sense (rendering it completely useless) as well as

use very specific way to describe certain warm disease presentations, many

physicians such as Qin Bo-Wei dislike the term and suggest not using it. It

only muddies the waters.

 

 

 

To summarize, Guillain-Barre syndrome (from some vaccination) can just as

easily manifest as a lurking pathogen presentation as not. And yes, I have

treated autoimmune conditions through expelling lingering pathogens, but it

is only when it presents in a specific way.

 

 

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

 

 

 

Further reading:

 

Chinese Medicine/practitioners/articles/

 

 

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Acupuncture

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of davidconnormarble

Monday, January 11, 2010 9:03 AM

 

Lingering pathogens and vaccine-triggered autoimmune

conditions

 

 

 

 

 

Greetings, all:

 

This is my first post to CHA, so if I transgress on any mores please be

gentle.

 

I have a patient coming in this week with a Western diagnosis of

Guillain-Barre syndrome, with an onset in 2005 following a vaccine injection

and increasing severity of back and lower limb dysesthesia through the

present. The patient has recently upgraded his pain management method to

fentanyl, and wishes to avoid dependency on this level of medication - he is

therefore coming to OM for the first time.

 

Sight unseen I am lacking the relevant information to assemble a pattern

diagnosis, but I am curious as to whether the vaccine trigger for the main

complaint would meet the criterion of a lingering pathogen by TCM standards,

and whether anyone has experienced success in alleviating or halting the

progression of autoimmune conditions through expelling lingering pathogens.

My education on Xiao Chai Hu Tang covered a list of appropriate symptoms

indicating its use, but also included the notion that it is used for all

sorts of " off-label " cases when lingering pathogens are suspected. Your

thoughts are appreciated.

 

Best,

David

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Jason,

 

Thank you for your response.

 

I appreciate the caution against ignoring pattern diagnosis, but simply lack any

relevant information to base pattern diagnosis on prior to seeing the patient.

I must admit that my training on lurking pathogens was very sketchy - I came

away with the sense that in China XCHT is one of the " big 10 " formulas, but I

certainly don't see enough patients who fit the specific XCHT presentation to

make it a go-to formula. Therefore, I was wondering if a pattern-independent

notion of lurking pathogens served to make up some of the difference - from your

response, I would guess not.

 

I have begun to read through the further reading, however, and there is much of

interest there re: my query. Do you have a special affinity for the study of

lurking pathogens, or was that a sub-set of your articles?

 

Thank you again.

 

Best,

David

 

--- In

[Guest guest]

David,

 

 

 

Yes, lurking pathogens has been a strong interest of mine for about 10

years. I've translated numerous articles and case studies on the subject

from classical and modern sources. I plan to be putting a few more of them

on my website over the next couple of months. Although clearly XCHT can be

used in a very wide range of situations, it was also called a " Quack "

formula for some time (especially through the 80s-90s).

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of davidconnormarble

Tuesday, January 12, 2010 5:37 PM

 

Re: Lingering pathogens and vaccine-triggered autoimmune

conditions

 

 

 

 

 

Hi Jason,

 

Thank you for your response.

 

I appreciate the caution against ignoring pattern diagnosis, but simply lack

any relevant information to base pattern diagnosis on prior to seeing the

patient. I must admit that my training on lurking pathogens was very sketchy

- I came away with the sense that in China XCHT is one of the " big 10 "

formulas, but I certainly don't see enough patients who fit the specific

XCHT presentation to make it a go-to formula. Therefore, I was wondering if

a pattern-independent notion of lurking pathogens served to make up some of

the difference - from your response, I would guess not.

 

I have begun to read through the further reading, however, and there is much

of interest there re: my query. Do you have a special affinity for the study

of lurking pathogens, or was that a sub-set of your articles?

 

Thank you again.

 

Best,

David

 

--- In

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I like this response from Jason about lurking pathogens (LP). The trouble with

their diagnosis is that they, well, lurk. So by definition they have few

symptoms that can be seen. Once seen then treat what appears. When I was a

student I had an old doctor tell me to use XCHT when you can't figure out what

is going on. It took me a number of disastrous treatments to realize he was

being sarcastic. Dooohhhh! So if you haven't seen the patient, as Jason says,

don't assume its an LP. that being said, I find XCHT to be not appropriate for

my chronic HepC patients but often do use the " spirit " of XCHT in their

formulas.

Doug

 

 

 

, " " wrote:

>

> Hi David,

>

>

>

> In my opinion, labeling something as a lurking pathogens is a double edged

> sword, especially when doing so based on a disease and/ or event. The

> presentation is still the most important determinant.

>

>

>

> Quite simply, any condition of a chronic nature (with some sort of pathogen,

> e.g. heat, cold, wind, damp etc) can be a " lingering pathogen " . However,

> this label gives us little additional insight into how to treat it. Actually

> any formula that deals with pathogens of a chronic nature can be considered

> as addressing " lurking pathogens " in a general sense. Consequently, giving

> something like XCHT because we say it is a " lurking pathogen " is simply

> incorrect.

>

>

>

> Therefore, one must still do a normal diagnosis. If one is familiar with the

> specific lurking pathogens theories, e.g. such as discussed by physicians

> like Liu Bao-Yi, and the specific pattern fits, then by all means one should

> utilize it. However, just because there is a vaccination involved one cannot

> assume that these lurking pathogens treatment strategies will be effective.

> Furthermore, do not rule out merely tonifying the patient if that is how the

> presentation presents.

>

>

>

> Finally, because of the confusion of this term, specifically its tendency to

> be used in a very general sense (rendering it completely useless) as well as

> use very specific way to describe certain warm disease presentations, many

> physicians such as Qin Bo-Wei dislike the term and suggest not using it. It

> only muddies the waters.

>

>

>

> To summarize, Guillain-Barre syndrome (from some vaccination) can just as

> easily manifest as a lurking pathogen presentation as not. And yes, I have

> treated autoimmune conditions through expelling lingering pathogens, but it

> is only when it presents in a specific way.

>

>

>

> Hope this helps.

>

>

>

>

>

> Further reading:

>

> Chinese Medicine/practitioners/articles/

>

>

>

>

>

> -Jason

>

>

Acupuncture

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of davidconnormarble

> Monday, January 11, 2010 9:03 AM

>

> Lingering pathogens and vaccine-triggered autoimmune

> conditions

>

>

>

>

>

> Greetings, all:

>

> This is my first post to CHA, so if I transgress on any mores please be

> gentle.

>

> I have a patient coming in this week with a Western diagnosis of

> Guillain-Barre syndrome, with an onset in 2005 following a vaccine injection

> and increasing severity of back and lower limb dysesthesia through the

> present. The patient has recently upgraded his pain management method to

> fentanyl, and wishes to avoid dependency on this level of medication - he is

> therefore coming to OM for the first time.

>

> Sight unseen I am lacking the relevant information to assemble a pattern

> diagnosis, but I am curious as to whether the vaccine trigger for the main

> complaint would meet the criterion of a lingering pathogen by TCM standards,

> and whether anyone has experienced success in alleviating or halting the

> progression of autoimmune conditions through expelling lingering pathogens.

> My education on Xiao Chai Hu Tang covered a list of appropriate symptoms

> indicating its use, but also included the notion that it is used for all

> sorts of " off-label " cases when lingering pathogens are suspected. Your

> thoughts are appreciated.

>

> Best,

> David

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I am curious if this idea of lurking pathogen is related to the same concept of

" hidden " or " deep seated " heat in the blood, which the herbs Mu Dan PI and Ling

XIao Hua are said to be specifics for clearing. This deep seated heat is the

type that may be present in long standing, chronic, and virulent skin diseases

like psoriasis and eczema, whereby the condition may burn hot for decades.

 

(Meaning that Mu dan pi would be a good herb to use in hot diseases that have

endured for a very long time, as Mu dan pi is said to " plumb the depths " and

clear the hidden heat from the blood.)

 

Is this the same as lurking pathogen?

 

Trevor

[Guest guest]

Trevor,

 

 

 

Yes and no. The problem with the term lurking pathogen is that it is used by

many doctors to describe all sorts of things, such as just heat in the blood

(that is lurking- meaning it is simply chronic.) Therefore we have herbs and

formulas with attributes relating to things " lurking. " . So there are authors

that use the term as a normal descriptive term (like chronic with a little

more color / entrenched) and others more specifically describing a whole

treatment / theoretical approach.

 

This general use of lurking / lingering / hidden (just meaning entrenched

and chronic) is different than the more specific strategies that many of

the warm disease doctors pioneered for specific presentations. These warm

disease presentations also may have (or not) long standing heat in the

blood.

 

This is why lurking pathogen as descriptive term is problematic. So yes mu

dan pi can be great for chronic 'deep' lurking heat in the blood. That is

what it does. However thinking in this way is not really related to what the

much of what the warm disease lurking pathogen specialists were thinking.

Although there are plenty of lurking pathogen formulas that use mu dan pi.

There is of course overlap of these distinctions which further complicates

the issue. But to use lurking pathogen theory and formula ideas one must

understand warm disease theory not just give an herb or formula for lurking

pathogens. I think you know this.

 

 

 

Does this help or am I creating more confusion?

 

 

 

To clarify for some: the term " lurking " is usually the same character as

hidden or lingering. I am pretty sure deep seated is different, and far less

common.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of trevor_erikson

Wednesday, January 13, 2010 1:01 PM

 

Re: Lingering pathogens and vaccine-triggered autoimmune

conditions

 

 

 

 

 

I am curious if this idea of lurking pathogen is related to the same concept

of " hidden " or " deep seated " heat in the blood, which the herbs Mu Dan PI

and Ling XIao Hua are said to be specifics for clearing. This deep seated

heat is the type that may be present in long standing, chronic, and virulent

skin diseases like psoriasis and eczema, whereby the condition may burn hot

for decades.

 

(Meaning that Mu dan pi would be a good herb to use in hot diseases that

have endured for a very long time, as Mu dan pi is said to " plumb the

depths " and clear the hidden heat from the blood.)

 

Is this the same as lurking pathogen?

 

Trevor

 

 

 

Internal Virus Database is out of date.

Checked by AVG - www.avg.com

Version: 9.0.709 / Virus Database: 270.14.96/2549 - Release 12/06/09

12:37:00

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

 

> To clarify for some: the term " lurking " is usually the same character as

> hidden or lingering. I am pretty sure deep seated is different, and far less

> common.

 

I think the terms " hidden, " " deep-lying, " and " latent " are all English

variations used for the same Chinese term (fu, usually appearing in compounds

like Fu Xie, deep-lying evil). The same term shows up in the context of Mu Dan

Pi, but the implications vary depending on context.

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

Since we now have mentioned few very closely sounding terms, I will clarify

a bit more:

 

 

 

As both Eric and I have stated lurking, hidden, and lingering (and latent)

are usually translated from the same character (Éú, fu). However

¡Èdeep-seated¡É is NOT from this character. Deep seated is from the

character (½É, su), as in deep seated pathogenic influences (½É¼Ù,

su xie)

or deep seated phlegm (½Éáâ, su tan) (which is also translated as

¡Èdeep,

dormant, or harbored phlegm¡É)- FTR, Wiseman translates ½É (su) as

¡Èabiding¡É as in ¡Èabiding phlegm or abiding food.¡É

 

 

 

As far as I know Wiseman does not use the English ¡Ædeep seated¡Ç

for

anything. However as Eric interjected, he does use ¡Èdeep-lying¡É

which is

just another way of rendering (Éú, fu). Therefore deep-lying and deep

seated

are different Chinese characters.

 

 

 

-

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of smilinglotus

Wednesday, January 13, 2010 6:07 PM

 

Re: Lingering pathogens and vaccine-triggered autoimmune

conditions

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

<%40> , " "

wrote:

 

> To clarify for some: the term " lurking " is usually the same character as

> hidden or lingering. I am pretty sure deep seated is different, and far

less

> common.

 

I think the terms " hidden, " " deep-lying, " and " latent " are all English

variations used for the same Chinese term (fu, usually appearing in

compounds like Fu Xie, deep-lying evil). The same term shows up in the

context of Mu Dan Pi, but the implications vary depending on context.

 

Eric Brand

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

(these characters rendered correctly as GB 2312 - simplified chinese on my

firefox browser)

 

, " " wrote:

>

> Since we now have mentioned few very closely sounding terms, I will clarify

> a bit more:

>

>

>

> As both Eric and I have stated lurking, hidden, and lingering (and latent)

> are usually translated from the same character (Éú, fu). However

> ¡Èdeep-seated¡É is NOT from this character. Deep seated is from the

> character (½É, su), as in deep seated pathogenic influences (½É¼Ù, su xie)

> or deep seated phlegm (½Éáâ, su tan) (which is also translated as ¡Èdeep,

> dormant, or harbored phlegm¡É)- FTR, Wiseman translates ½É (su) as

> ¡Èabiding¡É as in ¡Èabiding phlegm or abiding food.¡É

>

>

>

> As far as I know Wiseman does not use the English ¡Ædeep seated¡Ç for

> anything. However as Eric interjected, he does use ¡Èdeep-lying¡É which is

> just another way of rendering (Éú, fu). Therefore deep-lying and deep seated

> are different Chinese characters.

>

>

>

> -

>

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of smilinglotus

> Wednesday, January 13, 2010 6:07 PM

>

> Re: Lingering pathogens and vaccine-triggered autoimmune

> conditions

>

 

> <%40> , " "

> <@> wrote:

>

> > To clarify for some: the term " lurking " is usually the same character as

> > hidden or lingering. I am pretty sure deep seated is different, and far

> less

> > common.

>

> I think the terms " hidden, " " deep-lying, " and " latent " are all English

> variations used for the same Chinese term (fu, usually appearing in

> compounds like Fu Xie, deep-lying evil). The same term shows up in the

> context of Mu Dan Pi, but the implications vary depending on context.

>

> Eric Brand

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Jason and Eric,

 

Thank you for clarifying this. I just looked over my notes and see that the term

" Hidden heat " is used in reference to Mu dan pi, not " deep seated " (this was

just my own failed memory!)

 

Cheers,

T

 

, " " wrote:

>

> Since we now have mentioned few very closely sounding terms, I will clarify

> a bit more:

>

>

>

> As both Eric and I have stated lurking, hidden, and lingering (and latent)

> are usually translated from the same character (Éú, fu). However

> ¡Èdeep-seated¡É is NOT from this character. Deep seated is from the

> character (½É, su), as in deep seated pathogenic influences (½É¼Ù, su xie)

> or deep seated phlegm (½Éáâ, su tan) (which is also translated as ¡Èdeep,

> dormant, or harbored phlegm¡É)- FTR, Wiseman translates ½É (su) as

> ¡Èabiding¡É as in ¡Èabiding phlegm or abiding food.¡É

>

>

>

> As far as I know Wiseman does not use the English ¡Ædeep seated¡Ç for

> anything. However as Eric interjected, he does use ¡Èdeep-lying¡É which is

> just another way of rendering (Éú, fu). Therefore deep-lying and deep seated

> are different Chinese characters.

>

>

>

> -

>

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of smilinglotus

> Wednesday, January 13, 2010 6:07 PM

>

> Re: Lingering pathogens and vaccine-triggered autoimmune

> conditions

>

 

> <%40> , " "

> <@> wrote:

>

> > To clarify for some: the term " lurking " is usually the same character as

> > hidden or lingering. I am pretty sure deep seated is different, and far

> less

> > common.

>

> I think the terms " hidden, " " deep-lying, " and " latent " are all English

> variations used for the same Chinese term (fu, usually appearing in

> compounds like Fu Xie, deep-lying evil). The same term shows up in the

> context of Mu Dan Pi, but the implications vary depending on context.

>

> Eric Brand

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " " wrote:

> As both Eric and I have stated lurking, hidden, and lingering (and latent)

> are usually translated from the same character (Éú, fu). However

> ¡Èdeep-seated¡É is NOT from this character. Deep seated is from the

> character (½É, su), as in deep seated pathogenic influences (½É¼Ù, su xie)

> or deep seated phlegm (½Éáâ, su tan) (which is also translated as ¡Èdeep,

> dormant, or harbored phlegm¡É)- FTR, Wiseman translates ½É (su) as

> ¡Èabiding¡É as in ¡Èabiding phlegm or abiding food.¡É

 

Jason, Thanks for the correction, it can be hard to keep all these term systems

straight sometimes.

 

Al, Wiseman's term that corresponds to Bensky's " superficial visual obstruction "

is called " eye screen " ( & #30446; & #32755; mù yì). It refers to any

vision-impeding opacity of the eye external to the " dark of the eye, " i.e., the

iris and pupil, rather than in the interior of the eye.

 

Wiseman's complete glossary (just the term list, not the dictionary with

definitions) can be downloaded here:

http://www.legendaryherbs.com/professionalcorner.html

 

I'll put the correspondence chart between Wiseman, Bensky, and Xie Zhu-Fan up

there as well.

 

Eric Brand