RE: Ling definition / shen

February 27, 2010

K,

shen2 (¿À) ¡Êspirit¡ËIn the NeiJing has seven basic

definitions:

1. essence-spirit

2. magical, miraculous

3. smart or intelligent

4. extremely clever

5. the attention of the physician

6. the natural law of things

7. the body's correct qi

Clearly, shen (spirit) does not only refer to emotional states. I don't

think that is what Bob was exactly saying. However, what commonly happens is

that all of these usages (above) get translated with the same word spirit.

People without the proper training can easily mistake such usages in various

passages as Spirit with a capital S. Quite simply, something as simple as

the body's correct qi all of a sudden takes on some spiritual

interpretation.

Now I am no NeiJing expert, therefore who am I to say if that person is

right or wrong, I am not. However, when making such an interpretation from

such a passage with a Spirit with a capital S, quite simply, goes against

the thousands of years of commentary and understanding of that passage from

clinicians, experts, scholars, and people with classical Chinese fluency.

This is not about some communist repression of the spirit. If one reads

Chinese one can access commentaries from 1000 years ago and verify how

people thought about it then (as well as 500 years ago, and as well as now).

Therefore it is not up to others to prove such (spiritual) interpretations

are wrong, it is up to the person who goes against the grain to prove that

their definition is correct. If a person is making such a claim and has no

classical Chinese ability then I agree with Thomas, how can anyone take this

seriously? This is not to say that such a person might not have incredible

insights from the NeiJing and be able to use a clinically. This person may

also just have incredible insight into healing, medicine and understanding

people. Such a person might think everything is related to Spirit, I have no

argument there. But saying that classical Chinese physicians are also saying

this is just unsubstantiated (at least from historical record). In my

opinion, why even make it about classical Chinese medicine or the NeiJing.

Why not just state that this is the way that I believe things are now?

This is really not an argument about how important Spirit is or is not. It

only has to do with respecting the hundreds of generations of great thinkers

before us and how they understand Chinese medicine and the core text it is

based on. If there is some Westerner (who reads know Chinese) who comes

along and says no no no, this is all wrong, really the Chinese are talking

about Spirit with a big S and not the ¡Èbody's correct qi¡É or even

just

¡Èintelligence¡É then this is going to be a hard sell for me.

Just for the record, I have no opinion either way about Lonny's or

Steve¡Çs

work and am not making any judgment about it.

-

On Behalf Of

Friday, February 26, 2010 7:20 PM

Ling definition

Ling as in " Ling shu " and " Ling zhi " has been translated as " cosmic " ,

" spiritual " and " divine " .

How is " Ling " different from " Shen " and is this commented on in the Nei jing

aside from the title of the 2nd classic?

Is this an example of Spirit with a capital S?

Ling shu 8th issue:

" Qi-Bo replied: Virtue (de) is what heaven (tian) bestows on us.

Qi is what Earth (di) bestows on us. Life is a product of an interaction

between the virtue (de)

of heaven (tian) and the Qi of earth (di). Jing is the source of life. "

(from Henry Lu's 2nd edition of Nei jing/Nan jing with Qi substituted for

" energy " )

Bob said that spirit in the Chinese medical classics was referring to

emotional states (psychological).

It seems as though in the Ling shu 8th issue, " Shen " points to something

beyond purely psychological:

" The laws of needling dictate that acupuncture should be, first and

foremost, based upon the spirit (shen). "

K

February 27, 2010

However, what commonly happens is

that all of these usages (above) get translated with the same word spirit.

People without the proper training can easily mistake such usages in various

passages as Spirit with a capital S. Quite simply, something as simple as

the body's correct qi all of a sudden takes on some spiritual

interpretation.

Lonny: All these meanings contextualize each other. Of course, as you say,

context is everything. The more meanings and contexts one understands for a

character, or phrase, the more depth of understanding one will have regarding

any particular usage.

But through all of it, from beginning to end, top to bottom, and inside and out

" Spirit " , with a capital " S " is the reference point that contextualizes all

phenomena. Spirit is primary (yi- " one " stroke=heaven). This recognition is the

foundation of the language let alone the texts written in it.

That is why the beginning of many texts start by pointing toward, Spirit (jia

yi jing for example), Destiny (shen nong ben cao), and the biggest possible

picture (Nei jing " living in harmony with the laws of yin and yang " with all

that implies regarding consciousness and human choice).

February 27, 2010

Jason,

Thank you very much for your thorough and thoughtful comment. Can you (or

anyone) say what aspect of shen (capital or small) accounts for an

individual developing disease due to internal pathogenic factors and which

aspect accounts for the intrinsic capacity to heal at any time?

Steve

February 27, 2010

Steve,

First of all, to answer your question, I really have no idea. I don¡¯t even

know what we are really talking about with a small or large spirit anymore.

J - but whatever it is, I don't think shen can be reduced just to a capital

or small shen. As posted previously, shen has a multitude of meanings

depending on context. Many of the usages are clearly not " spiritual " and

refer to just things such as manifested vitality, intelligence, emotions,

and the body's correct qi.

But to further look your question, are you asking me what I personally think

or are you asking me what I think classical Chinese physicians thought? If

the latter, looking at specific lines in Chinese is the best way to remedy

such a situation. Do you have something specific in mind?

If you're asking what I think, I don¡¯t know and try not to get too involved

in philosophical questions. I like to understand the problem the patient is

experiencing and how to correct it. But when I see a line in Chinese such

as ¡°shen losing its attachment ÉñÊ§Ëù¹é (shen shi suo gui)¡± I often just

look at the symptoms and try to understand it from that point of view. For

example such a pattern will have ¡°insomnia, excessive dreams, or difficulty

in concentration.¡± I don't see this as a capital ¡°S¡±pirit problem.

I think a worthwhile read, from an ethnographic point of view, is

Transforming Emotions with Chinese medicine. It is very clear that Bob's

point of view is prevalent in Chinese medicine's past. This text very

clearly states that shen may refer specifically to an individual's mental

and emotional activity. I like such perspectives because they are usually a

little more unbiased. Clearly Lonny and Claude Larre et al, have a biased

lens that they are viewing things through.

As much as people like Lonny like to argue, that ¡°through all of it ¡

" Spirit " , with a capital " S " ¡ recognition is the foundation of the language

let alone the texts written in it¡± I find no evidence from Chinese sources

that support this. I respect Lonnie's idea and his belief in this concept. I

certainly understand his point of view. However, at this point in time I

have no reason to believe that this is the way classical Chinese medicine

viewed shen (at least exclusively) and find this authoritative blanket

statement more than odd. However, since there is plenty that I have not

read, I kindly ask, where does this come from? Is there something in Chinese

we can read that supports this?

-Jason

On Behalf Of Steven Alpern

Saturday, February 27, 2010 11:22 AM

Re: Ling definition / shen

Jason,

Thank you very much for your thorough and thoughtful comment. Can you (or

anyone) say what aspect of shen (capital or small) accounts for an

individual developing disease due to internal pathogenic factors and which

aspect accounts for the intrinsic capacity to heal at any time?

Steve

February 27, 2010

Jason, I'm glad you mentioned the Transforming emotions book. It had a profound

effect on my understanding of " Chinese emotions " along with simultaneously

working on a PMPH " Depression " book with Par Scott who also provided profound

insight for me. To understand some concepts for editing our book I dug out

Zhang's book. She has a simple explanation of shenti, which we call body right?

Simple enough it seemed. But she explains that this word also means the self for

the Chinese. Meanwhile I'm working on what I thought was a book about

" depression " and Par made me realize that it was a book about " constraint " . (Or

was it the other way around, I forget, it doesn't matter) And that constraint

(physical) and depression (emotional) were the same and now I knew why. And yet

to my Western Mind they are different. It was Basics 101, they are different and

they are the same.

The good person, one with a good self, expresses that through actions not an

" intrinsic " goodness. To be obvious: a person with constraint disorder has

depression and vice versa.

All those CHA arguments I had with Marnae et al. about this " translation " issue

came into focus. It was a cultural/anthropological issue not especially a

linguistic one. I am at peace.

Doug

>

> I think a worthwhile read, from an ethnographic point of view, is

> Transforming Emotions with Chinese medicine. It is very clear that Bob's

> point of view is prevalent in Chinese medicine's past. This text very

> clearly states that shen may refer specifically to an individual's mental

> and emotional activity. I like such perspectives because they are usually a

> little more unbiased. Clearly Lonny and Claude Larre et al, have a biased

> lens that they are viewing things through.

>

> As much as people like Lonny like to argue, that ¡°through all of it ¡

> " Spirit " , with a capital " S " ¡ recognition is the foundation of the language

> let alone the texts written in it¡± I find no evidence from Chinese sources

> that support this. I respect Lonnie's idea and his belief in this concept. I

> certainly understand his point of view. However, at this point in time I

> have no reason to believe that this is the way classical Chinese medicine

> viewed shen (at least exclusively) and find this authoritative blanket

> statement more than odd. However, since there is plenty that I have not

> read, I kindly ask, where does this come from? Is there something in Chinese

> we can read that supports this?

>

> -Jason

>

February 28, 2010

Doug,

Yes I have found this book very interesting and like you I really enjoyed the

section explaining shenti (èº«ä½“). There are many insights into the culture and

language to help clarify how Chinese medicine actually conceptualize emotions.

There is so many misconceptions floating around schools around this topic we

need some scholarly works to help decipher the truth.

I think éƒ (yu) is the term that you are talking about, and yes it is

translated by some as constraint by some as depression, and some as stagnation.

I prefer constraint for the following reason.

â€œFrom another perspective, depression is not an appropriate translation at

all. The original meaning of the word depression

means to be pressed down, a usage that is still common in English. However, the

word (yÃ¹) does not mean this but instead has a

set of meanings that relate to being pent-up or stagnated. This connects to its

use in Chinese medicine where, as Wiseman points

out above, (yÃ¹) refers to a type of stagnation. We suggest the word

â€œconstraintâ€ as a default translation for this term, although

sometimes â€œpent-upâ€ works better. To us this has the advantage of being

accurate and appropriate across a variety of uses. For example in (biÃ¢o yÃ¹)

(which we translate as exterior constraint) cold is compressing the exterior of

the body, not slowing it down

nor pressing it downwards; the same is true of (yÃ¹ rÃ¨) (which we translate as

heat from constraint). (Bensky, , Chace, and Mitchell, 2006)â€

I would though like to hear more about your thoughts when you say " a person with

constraint disorder has depression and vice versa.â€

Maybe we have a terminological issue, but my understanding is that patients with

a constraint pattern éƒè¯ (yu zheng) does not have to emotional depression.

Consequently, patients with the emotional depression do not have to have

constraintéƒ (yu). Can you explain more on your thinking? I do not have the

book, Transforming Emotions, in front of me, but later I will have to review

that chapter and see what it says. I personally love reviewing the basics and

more clarity we can have on the ground level the more solid our foundation for

building on top of it. I look forward to more clarity on the subject.

-Jason

On Behalf Of

Saturday, February 27, 2010 9:30 PM