Ming=destiny?

February 28, 2010

Lonny,

I don't think it is Bob or anyone else that is choosing to materialize a

character such as Ì¿ ¡Êming¡Ë. I think it is Lonny who is

choosing to go

against the grain and interpret it in a much more " esoteric " or " spiritual " .

Bob is simply understanding this term in the way that Chinese medicine

authorities have for thousands of years.

For example, Defrancis agrees that in modern times this character means life

or destiny, among other definitions. However, one cannot use a modern

dictionary, pick the definition they like, and insert it into classical

texts passages. Meaning, one cannot just assume that whenever they seeÌ¿

(ming) they are referring to destiny. Since Lonny does not read classical

Chinese I am a bit perplexed how he can be so certain about these

definitions and usages. Let us just look at a primary resource for

understanding the NeiJing.

For example, in the NeiJing there are four basic meanings forÌ¿ (ming).

1. Life

2. A Name

3. an order or command, lecture or lesson

4. inborn; natural gift, talent

This is not my opinion, nor Bob's opinion. This is the consensus from over

2000 years on what this term actually means. If one decides= to disagree

because of whatever ¡Èrepressions¡É might have happened in the past.

One

will have to do some serious scholarship, with Chinese language of course,

to uncover the " truth " .

This is not to say that if you write 1500 pages about the word that your

book doesn't have clinical value. I'm sure people in the West (searching for

spirituality in life) love this. That is far from my argument.

But your sweeping statements of how classical Chinese writers MUST be

talking about " Spirit¡É and ¡Èdestiny¡É because a couple of

books (and I

mean a couple, <1%) use these words (shen and ming) in their opening texts

is in my opinion bad logic. NOTE SHL, JGYL, Nanjing and most texts do not

start with these words.

I am not about to say that classical authors did not have this concept and

were not thinking about this at some point in time. Actually, I have no

idea. However what we do know is that people much more in touch with these

books over years of the time said about these terms. From this we can safely

say they terms the majority of the time, if not all, do not have these

modernized spiritual connotations that people like to write about in the

West. Again, this is not to devalue these concepts but let us be clear on

where we are getting our information.

Finally just because the NeiJing starts off, as you say, by " living in

harmony with the laws of yin and yang¡É to meet gives new special credence

to your interpretation of shen and ming and ¡ÈS¡Épirit being the

basis for

everything written.

My two cents, take it with a grain of salt...

-Jason

On Behalf Of Lonny

Friday, February 26, 2010 7:12 AM

Re: Research methodology and experimental design

While Bob may choose to impart a materialistic interpretation such as " life

span " to the character " ming " in a text such as the Shen Nong Ben Cao, who

has Proof with a capital " P " that my reading of the character as " destiny " ,

with all its Spiritual and philosophical connotations, is " wrong " or less

correct?. No one. Texts can be read at many levels of depth and they don't

exist in isolation but in a cultural and memetic, context.

-and-

That is why the beginning of many texts start by pointing toward, Spirit

(jia yi jing for example), Destiny (shen nong ben cao), and the biggest

possible picture (Nei jing " living in harmony with the laws of yin and yang "

with all that implies regarding consciousness and human choice).

February 28, 2010

Jason

Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. You've made

many cogent points. I appreciate your measured and even-handed

approach.

Your point that we need to use dictionaries that are contemporary

to the text we site is of crucial importance. I think we also

need to consult other medical texts of the same period to gain

insight into what is being said.

My teacher always stressed that our primary function was

Alleviate suffering - as in physical suffering. There is no more

noble undertaking

In his preface, Zhang Zhongjing made it very clear that the

purpose of his book was to save lives.

Stephen Woodley LAc

www.shanghanlunseminars.com

--

http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders

wherever you are

February 28, 2010

Stephen,

I think that many would believe that there is a nobler undertaking than just

alleviating physical suffering.

As healers, trained in Chinese medicine, that may be our calling, but I'd

like to hear what others think.

In my experience, alleviating physical suffering is much easier than

alleviating apathy, addiction and attachment to

impermanence, illusion and ignorance, the root of all suffering.

Of course, this all depends on our intentions and the kind of work we're

doing on ourselves in this life.

There are several quotes from the classics stating that the superior

physician works on the " shen " and not just the physical.

I can get the references later. Thoughts?

K

On Sun, Feb 28, 2010 at 12:26 PM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote:

>

> Jason

> Thank you for your contributions to this discussion. You've made

> many cogent points. I appreciate your measured and even-handed

> approach.

>

> Your point that we need to use dictionaries that are contemporary

> to the text we site is of crucial importance. I think we also

> need to consult other medical texts of the same period to gain

> insight into what is being said.

>

> My teacher always stressed that our primary function was

> Alleviate suffering - as in physical suffering. There is no more

> noble undertaking

> In his preface, Zhang Zhongjing made it very clear that the

> purpose of his book was to save lives.

>

> Stephen Woodley LAc

> www.shanghanlunseminars.com

>

> --

> http://www.fastmail.fm - Access all of your messages and folders

> wherever you are

>

February 28, 2010

Maybe I am missing something here, but here's my take...

Practitioners that focus their treatments on the " emotional or spiritual "

often present with a bit of arrogance/superiority to practitioners who

" alleviate physical suffering " . (I really am not singling out any one here).

However, do we really think there is a difference between the physical and

emotional ? In my opinion, Chinese medicine makes much less of a distinction

between the mind, body, and spirit than we do here in the West. The more I

think about it the more I find this conversation a bit odd. If one treats

the physical one of course treats the emotional and what some people call

spiritual. This is basic Chinese medicine and Chinese medicine integrates

all of these into one system. Actually, not to keep talking about Ye

Tian-Shi, but many of the recent case studies on constraint that I have

posted on my website demonstrate these principles.

I can assure you that I have hundreds of patients that will testify that I

alleviated their emotional and spiritual symptoms, however, I just used

basic Chinese medicine. I quite simply treat the pattern in front of me. If

there is phlegm heat with food stagnation I transform phlegm, clear heat,

reduce food stagnation, and transform accumulation. As simple as this may

be, treating the presenting patterns not only eliminates physical symptoms

but all of the integrated psycho-emotional stuff that goes along with it.

Often such patients are coming to me with serious/semi-serious internal

medicine problems and through treatment these other things just get better.

Is this any surprise?

Interestingly sometimes, patients come to me with a emotional and even

spiritual chief complaint (often because I helped a friend of theirs with a

similar issue). I almost always explain how the physical, emotional, and

spiritual are all related. Chinese medicine is really good at understanding

this integration and is truly holistic, unlike most Western thought and

therapies (even alternative). After explaining how their symptoms are

related I treat using CM and presto. I don't have to get wrapped up into any

spiritual trip and the patients are happy.

Actually, I find that this " spiritual " aspect to human existence, as Lonnie

and many others on the group do, extremely important. However, I purposely

try not to superimpose my spiritual belief system onto the medicine (there

is no need) or onto my patients. Getting their body in balance (treating

their patterns), hence alleviating physical symptoms, allows their own

development to take shape in which ever way it is meant to be (hence

alleviating their psycho-spiritual symptoms). To think I have any control or