Ming=destiny? & daoism

[Guest guest]

Jason, thanks for mentioning this. I am still working on an answer to your mail

regarding the Shennong line...

 

Why is 'long life decreed by heaven' much different from the mandate of heaven

notion? Have you read the Unschuld reference?

 

Best,

 

Herman

 

, " " wrote:

>

> I want to correct an error from my previous (below) e-mail. Actually, Tian

> ming (ÌìÃü) occurs in quite a few of these 600 texts (my search engine was

> not set up properly on my new computer). For example, the pi wei lun in its

> introduction quotes the su wen (... ³¤ÓÐÌìÃü)¡£ Bob, for example, translates

> this as ¡° ...long life decreed by heaven.¡±- this meaning (or at least his

> translation) is much different than the philosophical usage tian ming

> (mandate of heaven).

>

>

>

> -Jason

>

>

>

>

> On Behalf Of

> Sunday, March 07, 2010 10:30 AM

>

> RE: Re: Ming=destiny? & daoism

>

>

>

>

>

> Herman,

>

> I've given this a little more thought and have searched through about 600 +

> classical / pre-modern texts. Tian ming (ÌìÃü) is found only in a few

> instances. For example, it appears in the Suwen as ³¤ÓÐÌìÃü(chang you tian

> ming). This exact same phrase also appears in the ben cao gang mu.

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

<<Reading through these examples makes your question about Unschuld's

interpretation even more interesting. For example we have the following line

from the ben cao gang mu:

 

& #39592; & #27491; & #31563; & #26580; & #65292; & #27668; & #34880; & #20197; & #27969; & #65292;\

& #33120; & #29702; & #20197; & #23494; & #65292; & #39592; & #27668; & #20197; & #31934; & #65292;\

& #38271; & #26377; & #22825; & #21629;.

 

I have a hard time imagining that this `tian ming' here means anything

more than long life. Can anyone envision something different?>>

 

Apparently, Unschuld can. That's why I referred to the epilogue in his

introduction to the Suwen. The `exhaustion of this mandate to its full length'

is the goal, the `adherence to law' (observance of the Way) is how you reach it.

Of course, in simple words this means obtaining long life, but the point is that

Unschuld shows that `the association of Confucian and Huang-Lao maxims with the

medicine of systematic correspondence was more than merely coincidental'.

 

<<However, I would not even begin to suggest that ming ( & #21629;) or tian ming

cannot have very profound and complicated meanings in Chinese history.

Historically, ming is understood as " command, " " allotted lifespan, " " fate, "

or " life. " It also is central to debates on the legitimacy of rulership and

is the " crucial variable in Daoist manuals for prolonging one's life. "

Although many sinologists dislike the translation of ming as destiny,

instead favoring mandate. >>

 

You are talking about tian1ming4 in the meaning of mandate of heaven. I don't

know who the sinologists are who favour mandate as translation of ming4.

Depends on context, doesn't it? It's not a matter of like and dislike, really.

 

<<The interesting question to me are the differences between philosophical texts

and medical texts.

 

Philosophical texts generally are written for the elite.>>

 

Ancient medical texts are too. Maybe even more so! Harper (a.o.) has

documented that.

 

<<They contain very elaborate discussions; everything from morality to

enlightenment. Medical texts have the main purpose of treating disease and

saving lives, possibly written with the treatment of the more common folk. For

example, SHL experts often talk about the formulas treating soldiers and common

people, not the elite. Hence, one find little if any philosophical discussion.>>

 

Ancient medical texts are very interwoven with philosophical thought. Unschuld

mentions the philosopher Dong Zhongshu and the historian Ban Biao when he talks

about `mandate of heaven' in the Suwen, and gives many other references to

illustrate the connection between medical thought and philosophy.

 

<<However, one can only wonder why medical texts in general did not contain

these elaborate philosophical discussions.>>

 

Maybe not the discussions as in purely philosophical texts but, again, the

interwovenness of philosophy and medicine is ... everywhere.

 

<<Although there seems to be some debate on this list between the meanings of

a couple words here and there, I do not think anyone can deny the absence of

straightforward philosophical discourse in medical texts.>>

 

I do not know what exactly you mean by `straightforward philosophical discourse'

but one of the main reasons I am interested in ancient medical texts is the

philosophy behind (and in!) them. The origins of Chinese medicine are very

philosophical aren't they?

 

<<For example, one of the most well known daoists, Ma Dang-Yang (considered

one of the seven immortals), was also an acupuncturist who wrote about the

12 miraculous points. If there was any Chinese medicine doctor out there

that was going to talk about esoteric/spiritual type of medicine it would be

him. However, when he discussed these 12 acupuncture points, the

descriptions and indications for these points were all completely physical

with no mention of any spiritual connotations. Clearly, there is a

disconnect between the presentation of medicine and his presentation of

daoism/philosophy. Obviously, if Ma Dang-Yang thought that acupuncture or

herbs nourished destiny, or had anything to do with some spiritual/esoteric

pursuits, I think he would have had no hesitation mentioning this.>>

 

I don't know his texts. I can imagine he took some herbs to prolong his life

though...

 

<<[Charles Chace] also said when it comes to Daoist philosophy, cannons, and

ideas the amount of debate and disagreement is a bigger mess than Chinese

medicine. There's so many ideas and contradictions in thought that clearly there

is no right answer.>>

 

Very true. There's enough to spend several lifetimes on.

 

<<Clearly, daoism Confucianism etc. have some impact on the development of

Chinese medicine.>>

 

Some???

 

<<I guess the magical question is in what way, how much, and what aspects, if

any, were purposely held out. Any Unschuld scholars out there want to chime

in?>>

 

I do not call myself an Unschuld scholar but when we discuss this topic his work

is one of the sources we can and should not avoid. And Harper for the early

medical literature of course. Two other books that I never seem able to finish

reading/ studying but keep picking up are Allyn Rickett's work on the Guanzi

(Volume II) and John Major's book on chapters three, four, and five of the

Huainanzi.

 

N. Herman

[Guest guest]

Gentlemen,

I am sorry it has been difficult for me to respond and take part in this

discussion, it is very interesting to me, but it requires deep thought beyond

the usual e-mail flurries that swirl around us.

 

I was thinking about Thomas and his teacher, and the availability of

classical texts in mainland China. It is difficult to separate oneself from

prevailing modes of thought in a society, and any Confucian or Taoist currents

must be more 'underground' when compared with the prevailing 'winds of

scientism' (see Volker's " Currents of Tradition " for an in-depth discussion on

this). Just as it is difficult for us to see clearly what Chinese medicine is

in the West in the prevailing culture of biomedicine, individualism, and 'new

age' thought. One can have the texts available, but can one live in them and

truly understand them in the way that is necessary?

 

Herman, I've really enjoyed your posts although the Chinese characters are

still not coming through. I think that Chinese medicine is applied philosophy,

and that philosophy comes from philosophical Confucian and Taoist thought

primarily. As you point out, it is clear throughout the literature (see the

opening chapter of the Jin Gui Yao Lue, for example). What is brilliant, and

not always apparent, is that the Chinese are very practical, and in the

clinically oriented texts, the philosophy is distilled into the specific

recommendations, patterns, and prescriptions. The Wen Bing literature and Shang

Han Lun were borne out of real-time epidemics and loss of life, not just scholar

gardens. However, whether we are speaking of 'wind strike', 'cold damage',

'warm disease', ministerial fire, or any of the great currents in Chinese

medicine, these are based on philosophies born in the Yi Jing and other

classical sources. The cosmology is everywhere in the medicine, and, yes,

Unschuld is a great source for discussion on this.

 

For example, the " Fire god school " is based on the understanding of how yang

associated with heaven mobilizes and transforms yin qi, and the two fires in the

human body, the ministerial and emperor fire. One needs to understand the

philosophy as taught by Liu Li-hong, Heiner Fruehauf and Yaron Seidman in order

to understand how this approach works clinically.

 

More later,

 

 

 

 

On Mar 9, 2010, at 10:02 AM, aowenherman wrote:

 

> Philosophical texts generally are written for the elite.>>

>

> Ancient medical texts are too. Maybe even more so! Harper (a.o.) has

documented that.

>

> <<They contain very elaborate discussions; everything from morality to

enlightenment. Medical texts have the main purpose of treating disease and

saving lives, possibly written with the treatment of the more common folk. For

example, SHL experts often talk about the formulas treating soldiers and common

people, not the elite. Hence, one find little if any philosophical discussion.>>

>

> Ancient medical texts are very interwoven with philosophical thought. Unschuld

mentions the philosopher Dong Zhongshu and the historian Ban Biao when he talks

about `mandate of heaven' in the Suwen, and gives many other references to

illustrate the connection between medical thought and philosophy.

>

> <<However, one can only wonder why medical texts in general did not contain

> these elaborate philosophical discussions.>>

>

> Maybe not the discussions as in purely philosophical texts but, again, the

interwovenness of philosophy and medicine is ... everywhere.

>

> <<Although there seems to be some debate on this list between the meanings of

> a couple words here and there, I do not think anyone can deny the absence of

> straightforward philosophical discourse in medical texts.>>

>

> I do not know what exactly you mean by `straightforward philosophical

discourse' but one of the main reasons I am interested in ancient medical texts

is the philosophy behind (and in!) them. The origins of Chinese medicine are

very philosophical aren't they?

 

 

Chair, Department of Herbal Medicine

Pacific College of Oriental Medicine

San Diego, Ca. 92122

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I've been teaching for a few days and will respond further shortly. Just a bit

of context:

 

Life span as ordained by heaven is the outer, material form of a potential to be

fulfilled. That potential is fulfilled by " aligning one's will with the will of

heaven " or " following the way " . Every choice either builds yin (mundanity, death

in this context, hexagram 23) or yang (heaven's influence, light, pure motive,

Hexagram 24).

 

Ming: " orders " , mundane usage is a decree, a law. Philosophically this is

recognized as " heaven's will " . The point being to discover the mandate of heaven

within as life's purpose, follow ones heart, and not transgress the way.

 

At fifteen I had my will [zhi] bent on learning.

At thirty I stood firm.

At forty I had no doubts.

At fifty I knew the decrees of heaven [ming].

At sixty my ear was an obedient organ

for the reception of truth.

At seventy I could follow what my heart desired,

without transgressing what was right.-Gongfuzi

 

(I wonder if Hur Jun had studied Gongfuzi and been influenced? What are the

chances?)

 

(Seven of course being the number of return to original nature mirrored in the

function of K-7, the central point for returning yang to the root ala hexagram

24.)

 

Ming: " Destiny, fate " Generally, used as synonyms in English but I make a

distinction. The lower fate that the masses are victims to is shu

(numbers/fortune telling). Destiny is forged through conscious choice based on

the recognition of divine will within (tian ming).

 

Like the philosophical, religious, alchemical and vitality texts the medical

texts emphasize " tong shen ming " as the highest vitrue of the sage/physician.

" TO be one with, interpenetrated by, the spiritual brightness (ming) of heaven. "

Of course this ming is a homophone with the ming signifying destiny.

 

Hence the SNBC establishes the relationship in the first lines between ming

(Life span/destiny) and heaven. The the first herb listed is cinnabar. Cinnabar

is red like the color of the Heart/Shen (blood becomes red when the heart as

emperor invests its mandate (ming) into blood as shen). Mercuric sulfide is ta

rock standing for ego-fixed consciousness bond by form, the fire of the heart is

applied, the impurities of ego burned away, and mercury is revealed. Metal flows

into water, recapitulating the function of K-7 and conception. The Daoist cannon

tells us " in the trigram for water the two yin lines are the mothers opening the

yang is the fathers penis, the yin the mothers blood the yang the father's jing,

The yin is water and the yang line between them is metal " . Hence we have

conception of a new self. Cinnabar/mercury being the only substance to exist as

a solid and a liqued at room temperature. Interestingly, the character for jing

contains on it's right the symbol of an alchemists furnace containing cinnabar.

 

Interestingly enough too, Bl-1 in the Nei Jing is named " Gate of Destiny " , Ming

Men. Reflecting that when one abides by one's mandate, aligns one's will with

heaven, lives in harmony with yin and yang, the fires of heaven radiate through

the eyes as spirit. Hence the SNBC tells us that cinnabar, " Brightens the eyes " .

When one discovers who and what one is and knows life's purpose the illumination

of heaven and the fires of destiny burn in his or her eyes.

 

Ming: Name (new character)-Another interesting homophone-denotes one's personal

name. " TO have name " , youming, means " ego " in the Daoist texts. (mingming,

destiny/name, means to " distinguish a thing " or to give it a detiny by naming

it. )

 

Ming: Enlightenment, the sun and moon, GB-24, yet another homophone. " TO see

from the absolute perspective through all duality " . " The sage possesses the

vision that rolls the 10,000 tings back into one " .

 

Ming: Another homophone, " to sleep " , hell in religious Daoism, meditate.

 

Warm regards, Lonny

[Guest guest]

Apologies, my spell check stopped working in firefox hence the typos. My last

post was rushed as I'm working in clinic but conveys some context regarding

SNBC, various homophones of ming, relationship to K-7 and cinnabar, conception,

and assorted related observations.

[Guest guest]

Herman,

 

 

 

I've been waiting until I had something intersting to say. Fortunately

yesterday I got to spend some time with one of our leading Chinese medicine

practitioners in the West who happens to have a Masters in classical Chinese

as well as a PhD from China and is completely fluent in Chinese. He had some

interesting comments...

 

 

 

* Ming* (in the first line of the shen nonben cao jing)

 

 

 

Number one, (and I know you agree) he stated it is completely incorrect to

think that one can ¡Ènourish¡É destiny (ming), and this idea is

completely

unsubstantiated in classical Chinese. This is just an incorrect reading of

Chinese and misunderstanding of what ming means. Since we have yet to find

any evidence from commentaries that support this idea how can one argue?

Quite simply, he agrees that from the shen non ben cao jing - this is simply

¡Èlife.¡É Really he says there is no debate here. But I'm still

certainly

open to it having a broader meaning, and await some supporting commentary.

 

 

 

*yi* (in the first line of the shen nonben cao jing)

 

 

 

I do agree that translating this ¡Èyi¡É as just ¡Èand¡É

is a little

unsatisfying. However, Unschuld's Chinese is a very high level - this means

something in and of itself.

 

 

 

But, this above friend, after much discussion, also agrees with Unschuld.

Most important he said was to look at the overall meaning of the passages

and one must decide how they relate to each other.

 

 

 

He also had a similar rationale as I explained. He stated that the first two

lines might make sense with a more active yi, but the last one does not. For

example, he presented many scenarios but here is one interesting one:

 

 

 

¡È... nourishing life in order to resonate with heaven¡É -- this

makes

sense.

 

 

 

" ... nourishing one's character in order to resonate with humanity " -- this

makes sense.

 

" ... treating disease in order to resonate with Earth " -- this just does not

make sense.

 

 

 

He gave a couple other scenarios but in the end he said Unschuld is

*probably* right. More importantly he said people that write these

commentaries as well as someone like Unschuld understand perfectly well what

¡Èyi¡É means. This is not an issue of understanding a deeper meaning

of a

character but of basic classical Chinese skills. We also verified that yi

can be translated as ¡Èand¡É (¼©) even here. But I have

nothing that

specifically discusses this ¡Èyi¡É in Chinese, but then again why

would

there be?

 

 

 

However, I hear your point and there seems to be room for discussion least

among us about the possible significance. So maybe we are just happy with

reading it different ways.

 

 

 

*tian*(in the first line of the shen nonben cao jing)

 

 

 

There seems to be some debate on the significance of this tian. I have no

further insight and am personally unsure what to make of it. Either way we

interpret it, it must make sense in context with both ren (human) and di

(earth).

 

 

 

* Commentaries *

 

 

 

I agree 100% with everything Herman has said about commentaries. There will

always be problems, and one needs to know how to navigate these. However,

when we find that all commentaries agree this is hard to argue with.

 

 

 

To summarize: Chinese medicine is clearly formed with a backdrop of

philosophy, Confucian thought and to a lesser degree Daoist thought. As

Lonny has stated, one cannot separate one from the other. I agree. Because

of the wide range of ideas in Chinese philosophy, if one reads things with

certain lens one will always find what they want. Navigating classical

medical Chinese interpretations through merely reading translated text of

Chinese philosophy might make for interesting conversation, but it surely

not an academic approach to deciphering the mysteries of ancient Chinese

doctors.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of aowenherman

Tuesday, March 09, 2010 11:02 AM

 

Re: Ming=destiny? & daoism

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Jason,

 

Thanks for your interesting mail. I've inserted some comments below.

 

<<<> *yi* (in the first line of the shen nonben cao jing)

>

> > Most important he said was to look at the overall meaning of the passages

> and one must decide how they relate to each other.

>

>

>

> He also had a similar rationale as I explained. He stated that the first two

> lines might make sense with a more active yi, but the last one does not. For

> example, he presented many scenarios but here is one interesting one:

[...]

>

> " ... treating disease in order to resonate with Earth " -- this just does not

> make sense.>>>

 

 

No it doesn't and that's why I have not considered to read yi3 in that meaning.

As explained, the two readings:

 

.... nourish life and therefore correspond to heaven

.... nourish life by corresponding to heaven

 

are the ones I like to consider. And yi3 in those meanings ('and therefore' and

'by') do make sense for all of the three lines.

 

(... treat disease and therefore correspond to earth

.... treat disease by corresponding to earth )

 

 

<<<> This is not an issue of understanding a deeper meaning of a

> character but of basic classical Chinese skills. >>>

 

I agree.

 

Did you have a chance to ask your friend what he thinks the commentary from the

Xinxiu bencao means? -- I've quoted in my previous mail on this subject -- and

do not dare to repeat the characters right now because I am writing from this

prehistoric PC ;-)

 

<<<We also verified that yi

> can be translated as ¡Èand¡É (¼©) even here. But I have nothing that

> specifically discusses this ¡Èyi¡É in Chinese, but then again why would

> there be?>>>

 

It is not completely uncommon that such characters are discussed in

commentaries, or that you can find a clue about their meaning in the way

commentators rephrase things. That's why I quoted the Xinxiu bencao commentary.

 

 

<<<

> *tian*(in the first line of the shen nonben cao jing)

>

>

>

> There seems to be some debate on the significance of this tian. I have no

> further insight and am personally unsure what to make of it. Either way we

> interpret it, it must make sense in context with both ren (human) and di

> (earth).>>>

 

tian1 ren2 di4 are not strange concepts, are they? What is the debate you are

referring to?

 

Best Wishes,

 

Herman