Lots Institute teachings

[Guest guest]

Hi Michael

 

I’m not familiar with the Lotus institute, but I’m familiar with

Dr.Chang’s work, Dr.Chang is a doctor that attained his license thru the

special examination in Taiwan, the tekao. I can also tell you that this system

of pulse diagnosis is solidly based on Chinese medical theory, six qi, five

phases and yin yang. I studied this pulse system some time ago with one of his

students named Marcus Brinkman who’s been living in Taiwan for many years. In

Taiwan there are many pulse systems as well as acupuncture systems that are

taught, and many are family systems; one thing is that all the systems that I

have come across are all grounded in sound Chinese medical theory, as opposed to

Judeo Christian/New Age/ Jungian/ western theory! As far as standard TCM pulse

diagnosis, if you’re referring to what is taught in schools well that’s just

one system out of many.

 

 The simultaneous use of formulas is a system of combining formulas that has

evolved in Taiwan, using a formula as a flavor. For this topic I recommend you

look at Blue poppy’s site for articles written on this subject by Eric Brand

 

Gabe Fuentes

 

 

 

 

________________________________

Michael Tierra <mtierra

 

Sun, March 7, 2010 2:16:57 AM

Lots Institute teachings

 

 

I wonder why there has been no discussion on this form about the way that the

Taiwanese exponents and teachers associated with Lotus Institute Practice. It

seems to me that it represents a radical departure both in terms of diagnosis

and treatment from ‘standard’ TCM. For one, they espouse the simultaneous

use of several formulas and then the pulse diagnosis based on Jimmy Chang’s by

his own admission retains only about 20% of what is taught and learned in TCM

school. Then they had a teacher teaching TCM Iridology based on the same bogus

and flimsy methodology espoused by Bernard Jensen and Dr. Christopher in the

early 1970’s. The upshot of which is prescribing several formulas

simultaneously even those with opposing properties such as Long Dan with Ba Wei

di huang wan.

 

I know that are a large number of ‘orthodox’ TCM’ers on this list ( I

respect them but have argued that there are several way to practice TCM) and

I’m wondering what they think about Lotus Institutes way of diagnosis and

treatment.

 

Michael Tierra

 

 

[Guest guest]

, " Michael Tierra " <mtierra wrote:

>

> I wonder why there has been no discussion on this form about the way that the

Taiwanese exponents and teachers associated with Lotus Institute Practice.

 

Basically the main reason that we don't see many people writing about Taiwan's

style of Chinese medicine is related to a relatively simple set of factors:

1) Most people aren't aware that Taiwan has a distinctive style of Chinese

medicine

2) Most people go to mainland China to study instead of Taiwan

3) Most good Taiwanese doctors make a ton of money and have no interest in

immigrating to America, and the ones that do tend not to teach in schools for

$25/hr so we have limited access to them when we study in school

4) Studying in Taiwan requires fluency in Mandarin, so fewer foreigners

undertake it

 

There is a lot of interesting stuff going on in Taiwan. I studied in Taiwan for

several years and I've written any number of blogs about Chinese medicine in

Taiwan, but I don't have any personal experience to share about the Lotus

seminars because I've never taken them. From what I hear, the main thing that

is " new " to students here that take Jimmy Chang's seminars is the exposure to

the Taiwanese method of formula combining. This is influenced by the heavy use

of granules in Taiwan (which is related to their insurance coverage), and it has

also likely been influenced a bit by Japanese Kampo, which itself was related to

the development of the granule industry in Taiwan.

 

Here's some blogs:

 

http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/08/12/data-on-taiwanese-presc\

ription-trends#more216

 

http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/02/24/chinese-medicine-in-the\

-taiwanese-health#more90

 

http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/02/23/the-influence-of-chines\

e-medicine-on-tai#more89

 

http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/02/20/chinese-medical-devices\

-in-taiwan#more88

 

http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/05/08/the-art-of-formula-comb\

ining#more139

 

http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/08/28/the-virtues-of-digital-\

patient-records#more233

 

http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/06/19/ebm-and-tcm-research-on\

-tongue-diagnosis#more168

 

http://www.bluepoppy.com/blog/blogs/blog1.php/2009/02/04/global-trends-in-concen\

trated-extracts

 

Eric Brand

[Guest guest]

As a practitioner of Taiwanese acupuncture and herbology, I highly recommend

Lotus Institute's work.

 

I do Master Tung's Acupuncture and I combine herbals into a matrix as

building blocks, rather than using the " Jia Jian " method of using individual

herbs to add or take out of a formula. I find this method so much more

practical, especially for complex cases.

 

I do not do iridology, and have a smattering of knowledge in Dr. Chang's

pulses, so these are not part of Taiwanese Medicine as a whole. Dr. Chang

as an herbalist is excellent and he is the source of many of Evergreen's

formulas, his basis is drawn from Shang Han Lun and other classics.

 

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 6:05 AM, Gabriel Fuentes <fuentes120wrote:

 

> Hi Michael

>

> I’m not familiar with the Lotus institute, but I’m familiar with Dr.Chang’s

> work, Dr.Chang is a doctor that attained his license thru the special

> examination in Taiwan, the tekao. I can also tell you that this system of

> pulse diagnosis is solidly based on Chinese medical theory, six qi, five

> phases and yin yang. I studied this pulse system some time ago with one of

> his students named Marcus Brinkman who’s been living in Taiwan for many

> years. In Taiwan there are many pulse systems as well as acupuncture systems

> that are taught, and many are family systems; one thing is that all the

> systems that I have come across are all grounded in sound Chinese medical

> theory, as opposed to Judeo Christian/New Age/ Jungian/ western theory! As

> far as standard TCM pulse diagnosis, if you’re referring to what is taught

> in schools well that’s just one system out of many.

>

> The simultaneous use of formulas is a system of combining formulas that

> has evolved in Taiwan, using a formula as a flavor. For this topic I

> recommend you look at Blue poppy’s site for articles written on this subject

> by Eric Brand

>

> Gabe Fuentes

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> Michael Tierra <mtierra

>

> Sun, March 7, 2010 2:16:57 AM

> Lots Institute teachings

>

>

> I wonder why there has been no discussion on this form about the way that

> the Taiwanese exponents and teachers associated with Lotus Institute

> Practice. It seems to me that it represents a radical departure both in

> terms of diagnosis and treatment from ‘standard’ TCM. For one, they espouse

> the simultaneous use of several formulas and then the pulse diagnosis based

> on Jimmy Chang’s by his own admission retains only about 20% of what is

> taught and learned in TCM school. Then they had a teacher teaching TCM

> Iridology based on the same bogus and flimsy methodology espoused by Bernard

> Jensen and Dr. Christopher in the early 1970’s. The upshot of which is

> prescribing several formulas simultaneously even those with opposing

> properties such as Long Dan with Ba Wei di huang wan.

>

> I know that are a large number of ‘orthodox’ TCM’ers on this list ( I

> respect them but have argued that there are several way to practice TCM) and

> I’m wondering what they think about Lotus Institutes way of diagnosis and

> treatment.

>

> Michael Tierra

>

>

[Guest guest]

Using three formulas together would be around 30 herbs, right?

This sounds like some contemporary Mainland China formulation as well,

but definitely not classical... less than 12 herbs usually.

 

Any problems with creating modifications, since there are so many

ingredients,

or are modifications about adding and subtracting whole formulas?

 

Thanks,

K

[Guest guest]

These are complete formulas that are cooked and granulated first. So, a

prescription with three formulas wouldn't so much have 30 herbs in it, but 3

homogeneous powders. I believe that they can and do add some herbs now and

then, but they can't remove herbs from the homogeneous powders.

 

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 2:35 PM, <johnkokko wrote:

 

>

>

> Using three formulas together would be around 30 herbs, right?

> This sounds like some contemporary Mainland China formulation as well,

> but definitely not classical... less than 12 herbs usually.

>

> Any problems with creating modifications, since there are so many

> ingredients,

> or are modifications about adding and subtracting whole formulas?

>

> Thanks,

> K

>

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

You're not making them - you're using it as a complete herb - so 3 Rx's

would be like 3 herbs. The Taiwanese method is using powders.

 

On Mon, Mar 8, 2010 at 2:35 PM, <johnkokko wrote:

 

> Using three formulas together would be around 30 herbs, right?

> This sounds like some contemporary Mainland China formulation as well,

> but definitely not classical... less than 12 herbs usually.

>

> Any problems with creating modifications, since there are so many

> ingredients,

> or are modifications about adding and subtracting whole formulas?

>

> Thanks,

> K

>

>

> ---

>

> Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including a

> practitioner's directory and a moderated discussion forum.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I would echo Eric's experience. Taiwan has a unique blend of medicine that has

traditional influences from the mainland, Japan, and its own homegrown medicine.

What many people do not realize is that Taiwan has much more traditional culture

than the mainland, and its medicine thus has its own unique flavor.

 

The teacher I had there grew up on the mainland and fled with the KMT to Taiwan

in 1949. Schooled in the classics, but if you took a look at the formulas he

wrote you surely would think his 90+ years had caught up with him. Like many

Taiwanese doctors he often used a number of formulas in granular form, and

modified them with a few single herbs. For those of us schooled in the west with

modern TCM thinking it was the strangest thing to see. But, he got results. In

essence, when using this approach he thought of formulas much like we think of

herbs. He was thinking about the main function of the Fx, much like we would

think of the main function of an herb. He build his Rx on Fx instead of on

herbs. Lots of Taiwanese docs work like this.

 

As Eric points out, many Taiwanese docs are doing fine in their practices and

not interested in immigrating (Taiwan is a pretty great place) or teaching for

the low wage of an American Chinese medicine instructor. That being said, many I

have run into are very open with their knowledge and willing to have you follow

them in clinic. Often without a tuition fee if you really show sincere interest.

This is very different from the mainland where the medicine is only for sale.

All and all, Taiwan has some real treasure when it comes to the medicine, but

you do know to know your Mandarin to have access to it.

 

Michael

 

, " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus

>

> Basically the main reason that we don't see many people writing about Taiwan's

style of Chinese medicine is related to a relatively simple set of factors:

> 1) Most people aren't aware that Taiwan has a distinctive style of Chinese

medicine

> 2) Most people go to mainland China to study instead of Taiwan

> 3) Most good Taiwanese doctors make a ton of money and have no interest in

immigrating to America, and the ones that do tend not to teach in schools for

$25/hr so we have limited access to them when we study in school

> 4) Studying in Taiwan requires fluency in Mandarin, so fewer foreigners

undertake it

>

> There is a lot of interesting stuff going on in Taiwan. I studied in Taiwan

for several years and I've written any number of blogs about Chinese medicine in

Taiwan, but I don't have any personal experience to share about the Lotus

seminars because I've never taken them. From what I hear, the main thing that

is " new " to students here that take Jimmy Chang's seminars is the exposure to

the Taiwanese method of formula combining. This is influenced by the heavy use

of granules in Taiwan (which is related to their insurance coverage), and it has

also likely been influenced a bit by Japanese Kampo, which itself was related to

the development of the granule industry in Taiwan.

[Guest guest]

So far, what I've been able to ascertain - there's not a lot of

modifications happening, That's why I was surprised to see such opposing

whole formulas being used like Ba wei Di huang wan and Long Dan.

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of

Monday, March 08, 2010 2:36 PM

 

Re: Lots Institute teachings

 

 

 

 

 

Using three formulas together would be around 30 herbs, right?

This sounds like some contemporary Mainland China formulation as well,

but definitely not classical... less than 12 herbs usually.

 

Any problems with creating modifications, since there are so many

ingredients,

or are modifications about adding and subtracting whole formulas?

 

Thanks,

K

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I totally agree with Michael and Eric's experience.

I just went back to Taiwan at last December.

I was able to visit 3 herbal companies, 3 major medical centers with acupuncture

and herbal clinics, and follow/observe with a very well know OMD who specialized

in GYN issues in Taipei. It was amazing to see how he takes care of 200+

patients in 8 hrs for herbal consultation.

I arranged all of these learning trips while I was in the United States.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to organized a group trip for last 2 years, because

most of people don't know about Taiwan.

It's nice to visit my families and learned from OMDs in Taiwan.

Ta-Ya

______

On

Behalf Of MichaelM [michael]

Monday, March 08, 2010 11:19 PM

 

Re: Lots Institute teachings

 

I would echo Eric's experience. Taiwan has a unique blend of medicine that has

traditional influences from the mainland, Japan, and its own homegrown medicine.

What many people do not realize is that Taiwan has much more traditional culture

than the mainland, and its medicine thus has its own unique flavor.

 

The teacher I had there grew up on the mainland and fled with the KMT to Taiwan

in 1949. Schooled in the classics, but if you took a look at the formulas he

wrote you surely would think his 90+ years had caught up with him. Like many

Taiwanese doctors he often used a number of formulas in granular form, and

modified them with a few single herbs. For those of us schooled in the west with

modern TCM thinking it was the strangest thing to see. But, he got results. In

essence, when using this approach he thought of formulas much like we think of

herbs. He was thinking about the main function of the Fx, much like we would

think of the main function of an herb. He build his Rx on Fx instead of on

herbs. Lots of Taiwanese docs work like this.

 

As Eric points out, many Taiwanese docs are doing fine in their practices and

not interested in immigrating (Taiwan is a pretty great place) or teaching for

the low wage of an American Chinese medicine instructor. That being said, many I

have run into are very open with their knowledge and willing to have you follow

them in clinic. Often without a tuition fee if you really show sincere interest.

This is very different from the mainland where the medicine is only for sale.

All and all, Taiwan has some real treasure when it comes to the medicine, but

you do know to know your Mandarin to have access to it.

 

Michael

 

--- In

<%40>,

" smilinglotus " <smilinglotus

>

> Basically the main reason that we don't see many people writing about Taiwan's

style of Chinese medicine is related to a relatively simple set of factors:

> 1) Most people aren't aware that Taiwan has a distinctive style of Chinese

medicine

> 2) Most people go to mainland China to study instead of Taiwan

> 3) Most good Taiwanese doctors make a ton of money and have no interest in

immigrating to America, and the ones that do tend not to teach in schools for

$25/hr so we have limited access to them when we study in school

> 4) Studying in Taiwan requires fluency in Mandarin, so fewer foreigners

undertake it

>

> There is a lot of interesting stuff going on in Taiwan. I studied in Taiwan

for several years and I've written any number of blogs about Chinese medicine in

Taiwan, but I don't have any personal experience to share about the Lotus

seminars because I've never taken them. From what I hear, the main thing that is

" new " to students here that take Jimmy Chang's seminars is the exposure to the

Taiwanese method of formula combining. This is influenced by the heavy use of

granules in Taiwan (which is related to their insurance coverage), and it has

also likely been influenced a bit by Japanese Kampo, which itself was related to

the development of the granule industry in Taiwan.

[Guest guest]

Yes and I think it's because the strict orthodox rigors of the TCM

diagnostic method is bypassed. I suspect it to be a TCM 'shotgun' approach

to herbal medicine. Perhaps not very satisfying for a more probing

analytical mindset, certainly not something you'd want to tell 1st or 2nd

year TCM students about but -- shotguns and shotgun approaches I suppose

have their place. It just lacks the aesthetic profundity of Jiao Shu de's

method.

 

I think the approach works but perhaps not for the reasons claimed by its

adherents -- but I reserve judgment as I'm still learning it. I highly

recommend Alex Chen's webinar - seminar Mix & Match 30 formulas for clinical

Success. That was an immediately practical and useful workshop for me.

 

Some highlights that seemed to cut through a lot of dogma:

 

Si ni san used for diarrhea and bloating and a major formula for IBS.

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Ta-Ya Lee

Tuesday, March 09, 2010 8:43 PM

 

RE: Re: Lots Institute teachings

 

I totally agree with Michael and Eric's experience.

I just went back to Taiwan at last December.

I was able to visit 3 herbal companies, 3 major medical centers with

acupuncture and herbal clinics, and follow/observe with a very well know OMD

who specialized in GYN issues in Taipei. It was amazing to see how he takes

care of 200+ patients in 8 hrs for herbal consultation.

I arranged all of these learning trips while I was in the United States.

Unfortunately I wasn't able to organized a group trip for last 2 years,

because most of people don't know about Taiwan.

It's nice to visit my families and learned from OMDs in Taiwan.

Ta-Ya

______

 

On Behalf Of MichaelM

[michael]

Monday, March 08, 2010 11:19 PM

 

Re: Lots Institute teachings

 

I would echo Eric's experience. Taiwan has a unique blend of medicine that

has traditional influences from the mainland, Japan, and its own homegrown

medicine. What many people do not realize is that Taiwan has much more

traditional culture than the mainland, and its medicine thus has its own

unique flavor.

 

The teacher I had there grew up on the mainland and fled with the KMT to

Taiwan in 1949. Schooled in the classics, but if you took a look at the

formulas he wrote you surely would think his 90+ years had caught up with

him. Like many Taiwanese doctors he often used a number of formulas in

granular form, and modified them with a few single herbs. For those of us

schooled in the west with modern TCM thinking it was the strangest thing to

see. But, he got results. In essence, when using this approach he thought of

formulas much like we think of herbs. He was thinking about the main

function of the Fx, much like we would think of the main function of an

herb. He build his Rx on Fx instead of on herbs. Lots of Taiwanese docs work

like this.

 

As Eric points out, many Taiwanese docs are doing fine in their practices

and not interested in immigrating (Taiwan is a pretty great place) or

teaching for the low wage of an American Chinese medicine instructor. That

being said, many I have run into are very open with their knowledge and

willing to have you follow them in clinic. Often without a tuition fee if

you really show sincere interest. This is very different from the mainland

where the medicine is only for sale. All and all, Taiwan has some real

treasure when it comes to the medicine, but you do know to know your

Mandarin to have access to it.

 

Michael

 

--- In

<%40.c

om>, " smilinglotus " <smilinglotus

>

> Basically the main reason that we don't see many people writing about

Taiwan's style of Chinese medicine is related to a relatively simple set of

factors:

> 1) Most people aren't aware that Taiwan has a distinctive style of Chinese

medicine

> 2) Most people go to mainland China to study instead of Taiwan

> 3) Most good Taiwanese doctors make a ton of money and have no interest in

immigrating to America, and the ones that do tend not to teach in schools

for $25/hr so we have limited access to them when we study in school

> 4) Studying in Taiwan requires fluency in Mandarin, so fewer foreigners

undertake it

>

> There is a lot of interesting stuff going on in Taiwan. I studied in

Taiwan for several years and I've written any number of blogs about Chinese

medicine in Taiwan, but I don't have any personal experience to share about

the Lotus seminars because I've never taken them. From what I hear, the main

thing that is " new " to students here that take Jimmy Chang's seminars is the

exposure to the Taiwanese method of formula combining. This is influenced by

the heavy use of granules in Taiwan (which is related to their insurance

coverage), and it has also likely been influenced a bit by Japanese Kampo,

which itself was related to the development of the granule industry in

Taiwan.

 

 

 

 

 

---

 

Chinese Herbal Medicine offers various professional services, including a

practitioner's directory and a moderated discussion forum.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

IBS is largely Liver overacting on St/Sp or wood invading Earth... Xiao Yao

San and Tong Xie Yao Fang can work 50 - 50 powder mix and you're ready to

go!

 

On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 12:42 AM, Michael Tierra <mtierrawrote:

 

> Yes and I think it's because the strict orthodox rigors of the TCM

> diagnostic method is bypassed. I suspect it to be a TCM 'shotgun' approach

> to herbal medicine. Perhaps not very satisfying for a more probing

> analytical mindset, certainly not something you'd want to tell 1st or 2nd

> year TCM students about but -- shotguns and shotgun approaches I suppose

> have their place. It just lacks the aesthetic profundity of Jiao Shu de's

> method.

>

> I think the approach works but perhaps not for the reasons claimed by its

> adherents -- but I reserve judgment as I'm still learning it. I highly

> recommend Alex Chen's webinar - seminar Mix & Match 30 formulas for

> clinical

> Success. That was an immediately practical and useful workshop for me.

>

> Some highlights that seemed to cut through a lot of dogma:

>

> Si ni san used for diarrhea and bloating and a major formula for IBS.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Michael,

 

 

 

1. What do you mean dogma? I use si ni san all the time for such

symptoms and to me this is just basic TCM.

 

2. Consequently, what do you mean by the " strict orthodox rigors of

the tcm diagnostic method " ? - IMHO, TCM is a very flexible system, but am

curious what you mean by this because the way you present it seems so

negative.

 

 

 

-Jason

 

 

 

 

On Behalf Of Michael Tierra

 

 

 

 

 

Some highlights that seemed to cut through a lot of dogma:

 

Si ni san used for diarrhea and bloating and a major formula for IBS.

 

 

 

Yes and I think it's because the strict orthodox rigors of the TCM

diagnostic method is bypassed. I suspect it to be a TCM 'shotgun' approach