Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 One of my beginning students is part of the transgender community and has asked several provocative questions about treatment. (I'm not sure it matters, but it appears she is biologically female and still identified that way.) This first came up during a brief talk about qi gong and stopping the menses. She especially, it would seem, interested in those transmitting from female to male. Although I have treated a few females transiting to male I was at a loss of what to say. My first thought was that is quite conservative in matters such as this. At first glance CM might call this a real bad idea, to change gender, to stop the menses, to go through surgeries etc. Such a thing seems incomprehensible or maybe just confusing to me if not many of us. However I don't think we need to hear about " morality " of the issue nor doubt the sincerity of the intent. But then I thought about all those eunuchs through the centuries, which darn if I haven't see a word written about in the CM literature. So I'm asking you folks out there if they have run across any discussion of this. I will admit I have to yet read the Flourishing of Yin- but I'm wondering if there was ever a book on how to treat eunuchs or something else in the Chinese language canon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 I've seen quite a few homosexuals become heterosexual after being treated a few times on the qiao mai-- one of them after only ONE treatment on yin qiao mai. I've seen other sexual " deviances " also " straighten out " that way. NOTE: I've also seen many more homosexuals NOT turn straight after treatment on the qiao mai, too! It seems as though it only happens sometimes-- I can't tell you what to make of that. Anyone else notice this? This is not to make any moral judgement about it-- just what I've noticed. I wonder about this, in the case of transgender people-- I have not had the chance to find out if there would be a similar effect. Thea Elijah On Mar 9, 2010, at 2:20 PM, wrote: > One of my beginning students is part of the transgender community > and has asked several provocative questions about treatment. (I'm > not sure it matters, but it appears she is biologically female and > still identified that way.) This first came up during a brief talk > about qi gong and stopping the menses. She especially, it would > seem, interested in those transmitting from female to male. > > Although I have treated a few females transiting to male I was at a > loss of what to say. My first thought was that is > quite conservative in matters such as this. At first glance CM might > call this a real bad idea, to change gender, to stop the menses, to > go through surgeries etc. Such a thing seems incomprehensible or > maybe just confusing to me if not many of us. However I don't think > we need to hear about " morality " of the issue nor doubt the > sincerity of the intent. > > But then I thought about all those eunuchs through the centuries, > which darn if I haven't see a word written about in the CM > literature. So I'm asking you folks out there if they have run > across any discussion of this. I will admit I have to yet read the > Flourishing of Yin- but I'm wondering if there was ever a book on > how to treat eunuchs or something else in the Chinese language canon. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Well, so many things to say here. Like, were they upset that you did this? Or how many straight people became gay after you needled the wrong points? Sorry I don't buy it Thea, even in quotes the implication is that straight is normal and gay is abnormal. If you were to say that your acupuncture resolved internal sexual conflicts I would say fine but this seems badly put. Not the conversation I was asking for. Doug , Thea Elijah <parkinglot wrote: > > I've seen quite a few homosexuals become heterosexual after being > treated a few times on the qiao mai-- one of them after only ONE > treatment on yin qiao mai. I've seen other sexual " deviances " also > " straighten out " that way. NOTE: I've also seen many more > homosexuals NOT turn straight after treatment on the qiao mai, too! > It seems as though it only happens sometimes-- I can't tell you what > to make of that. Anyone else notice this? > > This is not to make any moral judgement about it-- just what I've > noticed. I wonder about this, in the case of transgender people-- I > have not had the chance to find out if there would be a similar effect. > > Thea Elijah > > > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 2:20 PM, wrote: > > > One of my beginning students is part of the transgender community > > and has asked several provocative questions about treatment. (I'm > > not sure it matters, but it appears she is biologically female and > > still identified that way.) This first came up during a brief talk > > about qi gong and stopping the menses. She especially, it would > > seem, interested in those transmitting from female to male. > > > > Although I have treated a few females transiting to male I was at a > > loss of what to say. My first thought was that is > > quite conservative in matters such as this. At first glance CM might > > call this a real bad idea, to change gender, to stop the menses, to > > go through surgeries etc. Such a thing seems incomprehensible or > > maybe just confusing to me if not many of us. However I don't think > > we need to hear about " morality " of the issue nor doubt the > > sincerity of the intent. > > > > But then I thought about all those eunuchs through the centuries, > > which darn if I haven't see a word written about in the CM > > literature. So I'm asking you folks out there if they have run > > across any discussion of this. I will admit I have to yet read the > > Flourishing of Yin- but I'm wondering if there was ever a book on > > how to treat eunuchs or something else in the Chinese language canon. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 On Mar 10, 2010, at 3:39 AM, wrote: > Well, so many things to say here. Like, were they upset that you did > this? > it definitely gave rise to external turmoil, but internally they felt quite " settled. " > Or how many straight people became gay after you needled the wrong > points? > So far none have gone from straight to gay following 8 Extra tx. > Sorry I don't buy it Thea, even in quotes the implication is that > straight is normal and gay is abnormal. If you were to say that your > acupuncture resolved internal sexual conflicts I would say fine but > this seems badly put. > It does seem a very good hypothesis that the tx resolved internal sexual conflicts. It hasn't happened nearly often enough to call it a theory, but generally speaking I would agree that this is what seems to have happened. I don't really have any clarity about being gay or straight being normal or abnormal, or what that means specifically within Chinese medicine--- any more than you do. I just don't know enough about it. My job is to help people be themselves, in the trust that this is what health means for them. But do clients always come in with that kind of clarity about themselves? If the client's gender dysphoria is a yin qiao mai problem, should I support their problem just because they request that I do so? How do I evaluate whether a desire or an orientation is healthy or pathological? Personally, I don't. It's not for me to evaluate. Exactly as you say, I will treat for the sake of clarifying and balancing so that internal conflicts may be resolved-- and then we see what happens. There is no way acupuncture can " make " someone's sexual orientation change--- at least I cannot imagine so! But txing the 8 Extras certainly can promote clarity/self-congruence on that level. What I am saying is, before acceding to your client's request, perhaps it is best to evaluate where the request is coming from in her-- from self-rejection on an 8EV level, or somewhere very balanced and whole in herself? As a practitioner, I would want that clarity. Since I cannot get that clarity from my judgments, I must get it through practice results. How might I do that? As you say, do what I can to resolve internal sexual or gender identity conflicts, and see what happens next. I know it is not politically correct to question anyone's sexual or gender orientation. But I think we need to, just as much as we question everything else about them, in the attempt to help the person " come home " to health. I'm not saying that the sociological norm equals health. I'm saying it's worth questioning, and doing so via tx, so that you do not find yourself possibly in the position of assisting a pathology. > Not the conversation I was asking for. > Is that (above) better put? I'm not being a Nazi here; I'm just not buying that health is whatever the client comes in asking for. While we don't " need to hear about " morality " of the issue nor doubt the sincerity of the intent, " it does seem clear that health is not just a matter of " anything goes " Right? No conclusions--- but the responsibility to clarify on a client by client basis. Thea Elijah > Doug > > , Thea Elijah > <parkinglot wrote: > > > > I've seen quite a few homosexuals become heterosexual after being > > treated a few times on the qiao mai-- one of them after only ONE > > treatment on yin qiao mai. I've seen other sexual " deviances " also > > " straighten out " that way. NOTE: I've also seen many more > > homosexuals NOT turn straight after treatment on the qiao mai, too! > > It seems as though it only happens sometimes-- I can't tell you what > > to make of that. Anyone else notice this? > > > > This is not to make any moral judgement about it-- just what I've > > noticed. I wonder about this, in the case of transgender people-- I > > have not had the chance to find out if there would be a similar > effect. > > > > Thea Elijah > > > > > > > > On Mar 9, 2010, at 2:20 PM, wrote: > > > > > One of my beginning students is part of the transgender community > > > and has asked several provocative questions about treatment. (I'm > > > not sure it matters, but it appears she is biologically female and > > > still identified that way.) This first came up during a brief talk > > > about qi gong and stopping the menses. She especially, it would > > > seem, interested in those transmitting from female to male. > > > > > > Although I have treated a few females transiting to male I was > at a > > > loss of what to say. My first thought was that is > > > quite conservative in matters such as this. At first glance CM > might > > > call this a real bad idea, to change gender, to stop the menses, > to > > > go through surgeries etc. Such a thing seems incomprehensible or > > > maybe just confusing to me if not many of us. However I don't > think > > > we need to hear about " morality " of the issue nor doubt the > > > sincerity of the intent. > > > > > > But then I thought about all those eunuchs through the centuries, > > > which darn if I haven't see a word written about in the CM > > > literature. So I'm asking you folks out there if they have run > > > across any discussion of this. I will admit I have to yet read the > > > Flourishing of Yin- but I'm wondering if there was ever a book on > > > how to treat eunuchs or something else in the Chinese language > canon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Doug - if you're asking for a TCM perspective on this issue, then you need to be able to separate the ethnocentric view from the TCM one. This topic came up in clinic in Seattle and the Chinese profs had a very different take on this than many of the students did (as you already have guessed) - but that's arguing political correctness and not TCM. If you think of TCM as restoring the norm, and equating castration with sex change... (please pardon the humor...) does that make a woman a man without testicles? (runs and ducks for cover). Geoff , " " wrote: the wrong points? Sorry I don't buy it Thea, even in quotes the implication is that straight is normal and gay is abnormal. If you were to say that your acupuncture resolved internal sexual conflicts I would say fine but this seems badly put. Not the conversation I was asking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 11:06 AM, yingsuke2002 <ozark.canuckwrote: > This topic came up in clinic in Seattle and the Chinese profs had a very > different take on this than many of the students did... > Can you encapsulate that discussion? -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. http://twitter.com/algancao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Okay, so I am new to this group. I am also relatively new to TCM, being a third year student. What I am not new to is transgender issues. I am a trained sex educator and have spent time with many transgendered individuals. First and foremost, a discussion about transgender identity is not a discussion about sexuality. It is a discussion about external expression of what is internal. I have thought a lot about TCM in regards to people who are transgendered, mostly because I have friends who have asked me to treat them and I have been confused about the method that would benefit my patient the most. The immediate response from most of my instructors is that a transgendered person is moving against what is natural, yin and yang. This, I decided, I don't buy. I will tell you why. Going back to basics, there is no yin here and yang there. There is yin and yang, and they are mutually dependant. They transform into each other and in nature, we always see yin within yang and yang within yin. Discussions of how men have sperm, which is white and yin, while women have menses, which is red and yang. Going further into anything you will find there is always yin within yang, yang within yin. Our tai chi symbol shows us that there are varying degrees of this as well, not just a finite percent. In my opinion, I find transgendered people to be on this spectrum, as we all are, of yin within yang or yang within yin. It's helping them find the balance that works for them. Many times (not always) people who feel a gender variance also have physiological variances as well. This can present as hormone imbalances (PCOS is one example)or physical variances (undecended testicles, elongated clitoris, etc.). This is a natural variation that has occurred throughout history. Two-spirits in some cultures, dieties in others. It is not new. What is new is trying to squash them into a gender binary, which is just not the case. There are always degrees, the tai chi can show us that. As far as treatment goes, I think that a discussion with each individual patient can tell you what is needed. Some people I know merely want to be percieved as male (or female) but who have no need to alter their bodies. Others cannot have peace until their body matches what they feel inside. It's up to us as practitioners to find out what they REALLY want, not what they are feeling societal pressure to do. Once that is established, we are here to help them find balance. For those taking testosterone, which is very hot, their blood needs to be cooled and yang sedated. Most often you will see irritability, anger and lots of patients report acne. Treat what you see, right? Those taking estrogen can have lower libidos and signs of central qi fall. That is what you treat, always keeping in mind what the chemicals they may be taking are causing to happen in their bodies. It is not our place to judge, just to treat and help our patients be healthy, balanced, and at peace. Sarah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Again, I'm not looking for a conversation about any of our contemporary thoughts. I'm just asking if medical issues around trans sexuality have appeared in the CM literature before. Doug , " yingsuke2002 " <ozark.canuck wrote: > > Doug - if you're asking for a TCM perspective on this issue, then you need to be able to separate the ethnocentric view from the TCM one. This topic came up in clinic in Seattle and the Chinese profs had a very different take on this than many of the students did (as you already have guessed) - but that's arguing political correctness and not TCM. If you think of TCM as restoring the norm, and equating castration with sex change... (please pardon the humor...) does that make a woman a man without testicles? (runs and ducks for cover). > > Geoff > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 It seems that having a tradition of eunuchs since ancient times, many of whom were in the Imperial system, and even were doctors, it seems there should be quite a bit or information somewhere in the literature or oral tradition. In India, eunuchs are considered neutral in gender. The Sanskrit language has three genders- masculine, feminine and neutral, so that may have influenced this as well. Eric On Mar 10, 2010, at 11:47 AM, wrote: > Again, I'm not looking for a conversation about any of our contemporary thoughts. I'm just asking if medical issues around trans sexuality have appeared in the CM literature before. > > Doug > > , " yingsuke2002 " <ozark.canuck wrote: > > > > Doug - if you're asking for a TCM perspective on this issue, then you need to be able to separate the ethnocentric view from the TCM one. This topic came up in clinic in Seattle and the Chinese profs had a very different take on this than many of the students did (as you already have guessed) - but that's arguing political correctness and not TCM. If you think of TCM as restoring the norm, and equating castration with sex change... (please pardon the humor...) does that make a woman a man without testicles? (runs and ducks for cover). > > > > Geoff > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 Doesn't Tibetan medicine have pulses that can indicate gender, including hermaphrodites? Does Chinese medicine have anything like this? K On Wed, Mar 10, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Eric Rosenbush <adividya wrote: > > > It seems that having a tradition of eunuchs since ancient times, many of > whom were in the Imperial system, and even were doctors, it seems there > should be quite a bit or information somewhere in the literature or oral > tradition. > > In India, eunuchs are considered neutral in gender. The Sanskrit language > has three genders- masculine, feminine and neutral, so that may have > influenced this as well. > > Eric > > > On Mar 10, 2010, at 11:47 AM, wrote: > > > Again, I'm not looking for a conversation about any of our contemporary > thoughts. I'm just asking if medical issues around trans sexuality have > appeared in the CM literature before. > > > > Doug > > > > --- In <%40>, > " yingsuke2002 " <ozark.canuck wrote: > > > > > > Doug - if you're asking for a TCM perspective on this issue, then you > need to be able to separate the ethnocentric view from the TCM one. This > topic came up in clinic in Seattle and the Chinese profs had a very > different take on this than many of the students did (as you already have > guessed) - but that's arguing political correctness and not TCM. If you > think of TCM as restoring the norm, and equating castration with sex > change... (please pardon the humor...) does that make a woman a man without > testicles? (runs and ducks for cover). > > > > > > Geoff > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 , " Sarah " <sarah.liners wrote: > It is not our place to judge, just to treat and help our patients be healthy, balanced, and at peace. Nice post. Eric Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 10, 2010 Report Share Posted March 10, 2010 , " " wrote: > > Well, so many things to say here. Like, were they upset that you did this? Or how many straight people became gay after you needled the wrong points? It's amazing our malpractice rates are as reasonable as they are when you consider the risks involved. (joking, obviously:) Better not tell Fox News about this treatment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 I agree with you Sarah. In my opinion, religious/society based judgement needs to left at the door and we need to concentrate on treatments that will ultimately bring balance to that individual.  A smile lightens the heart Warmly, Dianne ________________________________ Sarah <sarah.liners Wed, March 10, 2010 2:42:56 PM Re: Changes  Okay, so I am new to this group. I am also relatively new to TCM, being a third year student. What I am not new to is transgender issues. I am a trained sex educator and have spent time with many transgendered individuals. First and foremost, a discussion about transgender identity is not a discussion about sexuality. It is a discussion about external expression of what is internal. I have thought a lot about TCM in regards to people who are transgendered, mostly because I have friends who have asked me to treat them and I have been confused about the method that would benefit my patient the most. The immediate response from most of my instructors is that a transgendered person is moving against what is natural, yin and yang. This, I decided, I don't buy. I will tell you why. Going back to basics, there is no yin here and yang there. There is yin and yang, and they are mutually dependant. They transform into each other and in nature, we always see yin within yang and yang within yin. Discussions of how men have sperm, which is white and yin, while women have menses, which is red and yang. Going further into anything you will find there is always yin within yang, yang within yin. Our tai chi symbol shows us that there are varying degrees of this as well, not just a finite percent. In my opinion, I find transgendered people to be on this spectrum, as we all are, of yin within yang or yang within yin. It's helping them find the balance that works for them. Many times (not always) people who feel a gender variance also have physiological variances as well. This can present as hormone imbalances (PCOS is one example)or physical variances (undecended testicles, elongated clitoris, etc.). This is a natural variation that has occurred throughout history. Two-spirits in some cultures, dieties in others. It is not new. What is new is trying to squash them into a gender binary, which is just not the case. There are always degrees, the tai chi can show us that. As far as treatment goes, I think that a discussion with each individual patient can tell you what is needed. Some people I know merely want to be percieved as male (or female) but who have no need to alter their bodies. Others cannot have peace until their body matches what they feel inside. It's up to us as practitioners to find out what they REALLY want, not what they are feeling societal pressure to do. Once that is established, we are here to help them find balance. For those taking testosterone, which is very hot, their blood needs to be cooled and yang sedated. Most often you will see irritability, anger and lots of patients report acne. Treat what you see, right? Those taking estrogen can have lower libidos and signs of central qi fall. That is what you treat, always keeping in mind what the chemicals they may be taking are causing to happen in their bodies. It is not our place to judge, just to treat and help our patients be healthy, balanced, and at peace. Sarah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 lol On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:04 AM, smilinglotus wrote: > > > , " " > wrote: > > > > Well, so many things to say here. Like, were they upset that you > did this? Or how many straight people became gay after you needled > the wrong points? > > It's amazing our malpractice rates are as reasonable as they are > when you consider the risks involved. (joking, obviously:) Better > not tell Fox News about this treatment. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 As I understand our insurance malpractice policy we can treat heterosexuality, we just can't claim to cure it. :-) Doug , " A. Brameier " <snakeoil.works wrote: > > lol > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:04 AM, smilinglotus wrote: > > > > > > > , " " <taiqi@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Well, so many things to say here. Like, were they upset that you > > did this? Or how many straight people became gay after you needled > > the wrong points? > > > > It's amazing our malpractice rates are as reasonable as they are > > when you consider the risks involved. (joking, obviously:) Better > > not tell Fox News about this treatment. > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 .... and no telling how many treatments will be needed, either. (If we keep on with this line of questioning, I'm sure some factions will soon be getting started on treating those dolphins.) On Mar 11, 2010, at 3:23 PM, wrote: > As I understand our insurance malpractice policy we can treat > heterosexuality, we just can't claim to cure it. > :-) > Doug > > , " A. Brameier " > <snakeoil.works wrote: > > > > lol > > > > On Mar 11, 2010, at 2:04 AM, smilinglotus wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > , " " <taiqi@> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Well, so many things to say here. Like, were they upset that you > > > did this? Or how many straight people became gay after you needled > > > the wrong points? > > > > > > It's amazing our malpractice rates are as reasonable as they are > > > when you consider the risks involved. (joking, obviously:) Better > > > not tell Fox News about this treatment. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 11, 2010 Report Share Posted March 11, 2010 Sarah It is not our place to judge, just to treat and help our patients be healthy, balanced, and at peace. Stephen Sarah, thank you for your excellent posting! What a great reminder of what practice is all about, so eloquently summed up in your final sentence! Stephen Woodley LAc -- http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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