Guest guest Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 <encodings set to Unicode> Jason, It’s been a while but I like to follow up on the conversation we started about your Neijing dictionary. In the mean time, much has been said in other mails already, so forgive me if there is unnecessary repetition in this mail. For clear reference, here are the lists you’ve quoted for shen2 and ming4: shen2 : 1. essence-spirit 2. magical, miraculous 3. smart or intelligent 4. extremely clever 5. the attention of the physician 6. the natural law of things 7. the body's correct qi ming4: 1. Life 2. A Name 3. an order or command, lecture or lesson 4. inborn; natural gift, talent << 1. The name of the dictionary is 黄å¸å†…ç»è¯å…¸ (天津ç§`å¦æŠ€æœ¯å‡ºç‰ˆç¤¾)， it is about 1200 pages。>> Thanks. I think it is good to know for everyone following this that you translated an entry from a modern Chinese dictionary into English. A question: Since this is a modern Chinese dictionary, why did you translate jing1shen2 (as the first ‘definition’ of shen2) as ‘essence-spirit’? I mean, why wouldn’t ‘mind, consciousness’ (or ‘spirit’ ;-)) apply? <<I find it extremely helpful and there is no question that it is much more comprehensive compared to Unschuld’s ‘abridged’ version. >> Well, you haven't convinced me that it is so extremely helpful yet. The list of meanings you quoted (in translation) for shen2 is, in my opinion, insufficient to translate /understand the two phrases I quoted as examples of my problems with it, and it has other problems, such as meaning no. 6. ‘the natural law of things’ †" where in the Neijing do we have to understand shen2 that way? I also haven’t seen a context in the Neijing for ming4 in the meaning ‘inborn; natural gift, talent’ yet. Can it be found it in Lingshu? Anyway, I don't think you should use Unschuld's Suwen dictionary without studying his other published work on the Suwen. There is a lot of interesting stuff on shen2 in his Suwen introduction. <<Hence why I returned that dictionary.>> Hmm, and then you ask us to look things up in it (jokingly). << I will send you a photocopy of the shen entry so that you can have the full information. But very quickly, yes shen can mean “the attention of the physician†and is specifically discussed in the article by Bensky and Chase that I mentioned yesterday.>> I have read that mail and looked at Lingshu 3. From your mail, quoting B. & C.: <<Ling Shu 3.1 states ¡°That the superior attend to the spirit means that they attend to the patient¡¯s surplus or insufficiency of qi and blood, and this enables them to tonify or drain.>> I’m sorry, but I see no clue here that what is translated as ‘spirit’ (shen2) here actually means ‘the attention of the physician’. In other words, ‘attend to the spirit’ is B. & C.’s translation of 守神 [shou3shen2] and that does not mean ‘attend to the attention of the physician’ if you see what I mean. Hence, I find it incorrect when a dictionary lists that meaning for shen2. The text that follows defines, as you noted, shen2 as ‘right /proper /correct qi4’ in this context and that is what is important. By the way, I prefer Unschuld’s ‘observe’ for 守 [shou3] : The superior [physician] observes the spirit, that is, he or she observes the surplus or insufficiency of qi and blood in the patient which enables him or her to [make a choice between] supplementation and draining. Thinking about this, reading Unschuld, and reading the Chinese commentaries, a question has begun to form in my mind: The expression 守神 [shou3shen2] appears in Suwen 1 in the meaning ‘to guard the spirit’ (one of the things the ‘true men’ of ancient times did). In Lingshu 1 and 3, the same expression means ‘observe the spirit’. In Lingshu 3, some of the rather compact language of Chapter One is explained. Lingshu 1 : 粗守形上守神 [cu1 shou3 xing2 shang4 shou3 shen2] The uneducated [physician/ practitioner] observes the physical appearance (i.e., the body), the superior one observes the spirit. If we follow Lingshu 3 and interpret spirit as meaning ‘right / proper qi’; we translate xing2 as physical appearance / the body; and we take note of the fact that xing4 and shen2 are juxtaposed in other sections of the Suwen as well, can we really claim that shen2 cannot stand for a ‘nonmaterial constituent of the body’? Does that maybe lead to the conclusion that we have to understand ‘right / proper qi’ to be nonmaterial as well? As you see, it is confusing and I hope that you, Jason, or others can shed more light on this. Anyway, I still think that your Neijing dictionary shows a hiatus in this respect. Another example of shen2 in the Suwen that might be of interest in this discussion is in Suwen 3: æ•…è–人傳精神 æœå¤©æ°£è€Œé€šç¥žæ˜Ž in simplified characters: æ•…åœ£äººä¼ ç²¾ç¥ž æœå¤©æ° " 而通神明 in pin1yin1: gu4 sheng4 ren2 chuan2 jing1 shen2 fu2 tian1 qi4 er2 tong1 shen2 ming2 which I would translate (with the help of P.U.U.'s dictionary) as: .... therefore the sage concentrates essence and spirit, ingests the qi4 of heaven, and communicates with the spirit brilliance ... Questions could be: What meanings would you choose from your dictionary (no. 5, attention of the physician? no. 7, the body’s correct qi?), and what would it add to our understanding of what the sage is actually doing? & With what is the sage communicating? How ‘basic’ and ‘down to earth’ (to quote you) is this? Zhang Jiebin’s comment on this phrase (in my ‘a prima vista’ translation): “Only the sage can obtain the essence and spirit of heaven and ingest heaven’s original qi. Therefore [the sage] is one with heaven and [his or her] spirit brilliance is able to communicate with heaven.†A (typical?) modern Chinese commentary says that æœå¤©æ° " [fu2 tian1 qi4] means: “to follow the yin1 yang2 transformations of the natural worldâ€, 通 [tong1] is explained as “harmonize / adjust†and 神明 [shen2 ming2] = “the transformations of yin1 and yang2â€. I return to your mail: << Unfortunately I cannot read your characters so my comments are limited.>> I hope this problem can be solved as it is rather essential for the communication that we are able to see the characters. << But you ask, how does this list help you translate?>> << Of course, one can just choose to use the term " spirit " for every time they see the term shen (神)。 However, in doing so, if one does not provide the proper commentary (which is rarely done in English), then the reader is left to their own imagination to what this term the “spirit†can mean. Hence a huge problem in the West and the point of my recent posts. Context with commentary is just absolutely essential in deciphering these classical texts.>> I absolutely agree and I recognize the problem of westerners attributing notions to ‘spirit’ that do not apply to what Chinese authors (might) have meant. My problems concern the dictionary entries that you’ve brought up, and that you say (somewhere in another mail) that shen2 means correct qi4 in the Suwen, nothing more nothing less. I don’t think that is true. <<You also ask, “Why is there no definition amongst these seven that reflects shen2 as a nonmaterial constituent of the organism (at least not in a direct and clear way)?†- my answer: I'm not sure, but I would guess because this is not what it means to classical Chinese authors.>> I'm glad you say that you're not sure. Although magico-religious beliefs were largely left out of the Neijing, they are not entirely absent from it (and they survived in other traditions, as mentioned in the mails you, Lonny, and others have written of late). My opinion is largely based on Unschuld. I agree with him that we should interpret jing1 and shen2 as nonmaterial constituents of the human body in various contexts in the Suwen (at least, that is what I gathered from his writings). I also think it is valid to ask: To what extent do the worldviews of the dictionary makers play a role in their decisions how to draw up lists of meanings for concepts like shen2 in the Suwen? Does the fact that they leave out the definition of shen2 as nonmaterial constituent tell us something about the meaning classical Chinese authors ascribed to it or is it rather a reflection of the dictionary makers’ worldviews? Is it unimaginable that those worldviews have coloured their work? {... edit: in the last ‘ming4=destiny?’ and ‘shen nong ben cao con’t’ mails this issue has been discussed. Bloody hell, it’s hard to keep up with all the discussions...} As an aside: I always find it amusing to hear people say that the communists 'edited the s/Spirit and spirituality out' of Chinese medicine. As far as I understand, this 'editing out' process applies for the period in which the Neijing took shape. Nevertheless, as Unschuld has argued, the texts concerning the medicine of systematic correspondence that were construed in this period are to a certain degree eclectic in nature, that is, notions from several belief systems and philosophical concepts from various origins found there way into them. That is probably an important reason why we have so much difficulty with describing all the meanings of, in this case, shen2 in this text. I hope you or others will find the time for discussing these issues a bit further. All the Best, N. Herman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 13, 2010 Report Share Posted March 13, 2010 Herman, I am having a hard time understanding the beef here. Yes this is a modern NeiJIng Dictionary. This is only a starting point when investigating these issues, no one is suggesting otherwise. But the definitions that it represents are the common understandings that are prevalent throughout the centuries. There certainly may be more. Furthermore the people that put these dictionaries together are light years beyond me in Classical Chinese as well as Nei Jing understanding. So I have no beef with them and they seem to correspond to commentaries that I have consulted. Therefore, I present these entries as nothing more than a starting point and to demonstrate that it is pretty common knowledge that shen (and ming) can mean a variety of things. That is it. I happen to agree. Although you may not agree that is your prerogative to go against the grain and the commentaries that say otherwise. Hence presenting some supporting commentary would be useful. Also, you may not find it adequate for certain scenarios, and that is fine. Anyone who seriously studies Nei Jing has to have many resources. Finally the quote that I present is explained in detail in the Chace and Bensky article as well as many more expamples. You might not agree but they have done some serious scholarship on this issue based on multiple commentaries – not just one dictionary. Therefore, at the least it represents an educated and well thought out viewpoint. Check it out and let me know what you think… - On Behalf Of aowenherman Well, you haven't convinced me that it is so extremely helpful yet. The list of meanings you quoted (in translation) for shen2 is, in my opinion, insufficient to translate /understand the two phrases I quoted as examples of my problems with it, and it has other problems, such as meaning no. 6. ‘the natural law of things’ …quot; where in the Neijing do we have to understand shen2 that way? I also haven’t seen a context in the Neijing for ming4 in the meaning ‘inborn; natural gift, talent’ yet. Can it be found it in Lingshu? Anyway, I don't think you should use Unschuld's Suwen dictionary without studying his other published work on the Suwen. There is a lot of interesting stuff on shen2 in his Suwen introduction. <<Hence why I returned that dictionary.>> Hmm, and then you ask us to look things up in it (jokingly). << I will send you a photocopy of the shen entry so that you can have the full information. But very quickly, yes shen can mean “the attention of the physician†and is specifically discussed in the article by Bensky and Chase that I mentioned yesterday.>> I have read that mail and looked at Lingshu 3. From your mail, quoting B. & C.: <<Ling Shu 3.1 states ¡°That the superior attend to the spirit means that they attend to the patient¡¯s surplus or insufficiency of qi and blood, and this enables them to tonify or drain.>> I’m sorry, but I see no clue here that what is translated as ‘spirit’ (shen2) here actually means ‘the attention of the physician’. In other words, ‘attend to the spirit’ is B. & C.’s translation of 守神 [shou3shen2] and that does not mean ‘attend to the attention of the physician’ if you see what I mean. Hence, I find it incorrect when a dictionary lists that meaning for shen2. The text that follows defines, as you noted, shen2 as ‘right /proper /correct qi4’ in this context and that is what is important. By the way, I prefer Unschuld’s ‘observe’ for 守 [shou3] : The superior [physician] observes the spirit, that is, he or she observes the surplus or insufficiency of qi and blood in the patient which enables him or her to [make a choice between] supplementation and draining. Thinking about this, reading Unschuld, and reading the Chinese commentaries, a question has begun to form in my mind: The expression 守神 [shou3shen2] appears in Suwen 1 in the meaning ‘to guard the spirit’ (one of the things the ‘true men’ of ancient times did). In Lingshu 1 and 3, the same expression means ‘observe the spirit’. In Lingshu 3, some of the rather compact language of Chapter One is explained. Lingshu 1 : 粗守形上守神 [cu1 shou3 xing2 shang4 shou3 shen2] The uneducated [physician/ practitioner] observes the physical appearance (i.e., the body), the superior one observes the spirit. If we follow Lingshu 3 and interpret spirit as meaning ‘right / proper qi’; we translate xing2 as physical appearance / the body; and we take note of the fact that xing4 and shen2 are juxtaposed in other sections of the Suwen as well, can we really claim that shen2 cannot stand for a ‘nonmaterial constituent of the body’? Does that maybe lead to the conclusion that we have to understand ‘right / proper qi’ to be nonmaterial as well? As you see, it is confusing and I hope that you, Jason, or others can shed more light on this. Anyway, I still think that your Neijing dictionary shows a hiatus in this respect. Another example of shen2 in the Suwen that might be of interest in this discussion is in Suwen 3: æ•…è–人傳精神 æœå¤©æ°£è€Œé€šç¥žæ˜Ž in simplified characters: æ•…åœ£äººä¼ ç²¾ç¥ž æœå¤©æ°¦quot;而通神明 in pin1yin1: gu4 sheng4 ren2 chuan2 jing1 shen2 fu2 tian1 qi4 er2 tong1 shen2 ming2 which I would translate (with the help of P.U.U.'s dictionary) as: .... therefore the sage concentrates essence and spirit, ingests the qi4 of heaven, and communicates with the spirit brilliance ... Questions could be: What meanings would you choose from your dictionary (no. 5, attention of the physician? no. 7, the body’s correct qi?), and what would it add to our understanding of what the sage is actually doing? & With what is the sage communicating? How ‘basic’ and ‘down to earth’ (to quote you) is this? Zhang Jiebin’s comment on this phrase (in my ‘a prima vista’ translation): “Only the sage can obtain the essence and spirit of heaven and ingest heaven’s original qi. Therefore [the sage] is one with heaven and [his or her] spirit brilliance is able to communicate with heaven.†A (typical?) modern Chinese commentary says that æœå¤©æ°¦quot; [fu2 tian1 qi4] means: “to follow the yin1 yang2 transformations of the natural worldâ€, 通 [tong1] is explained as “harmonize / adjust†and 神明 [shen2 ming2] = “the transformations of yin1 and yang2â€. I return to your mail: << Unfortunately I cannot read your characters so my comments are limited.>> I hope this problem can be solved as it is rather essential for the communication that we are able to see the characters. << But you ask, how does this list help you translate?>> << Of course, one can just choose to use the term " spirit " for every time they see the term shen (神)。 However, in doing so, if one does not provide the proper commentary (which is rarely done in English), then the reader is left to their own imagination to what this term the “spirit†can mean. Hence a huge problem in the West and the point of my recent posts. Context with commentary is just absolutely essential in deciphering these classical texts.>> I absolutely agree and I recognize the problem of westerners attributing notions to ‘spirit’ that do not apply to what Chinese authors (might) have meant. My problems concern the dictionary entries that you’ve brought up, and that you say (somewhere in another mail) that shen2 means correct qi4 in the Suwen, nothing more nothing less. I don’t think that is true. <<You also ask, “Why is there no definition amongst these seven that reflects shen2 as a nonmaterial constituent of the organism (at least not in a direct and clear way)?†- my answer: I'm not sure, but I would guess because this is not what it means to classical Chinese authors.>> I'm glad you say that you're not sure. Although magico-religious beliefs were largely left out of the Neijing, they are not entirely absent from it (and they survived in other traditions, as mentioned in the mails you, Lonny, and others have written of late). My opinion is largely based on Unschuld. I agree with him that we should interpret jing1 and shen2 as nonmaterial constituents of the human body in various contexts in the Suwen (at least, that is what I gathered from his writings). I also think it is valid to ask: To what extent do the worldviews of the dictionary makers play a role in their decisions how to draw up lists of meanings for concepts like shen2 in the Suwen? Does the fact that they leave out the definition of shen2 as nonmaterial constituent tell us something about the meaning classical Chinese authors ascribed to it or is it rather a reflection of the dictionary makers’ worldviews? Is it unimaginable that those worldviews have coloured their work? {... edit: in the last ‘ming4=destiny?’ and ‘shen nong ben cao con’t’ mails this issue has been discussed. Bloody hell, it’s hard to keep up with all the discussions...} As an aside: I always find it amusing to hear people say that the communists 'edited the s/Spirit and spirituality out' of Chinese medicine. As far as I understand, this 'editing out' process applies for the period in which the Neijing took shape. Nevertheless, as Unschuld has argued, the texts concerning the medicine of systematic correspondence that were construed in this period are to a certain degree eclectic in nature, that is, notions from several belief systems and philosophical concepts from various origins found there way into them. That is probably an important reason why we have so much difficulty with describing all the meanings of, in this case, shen2 in this text. I hope you or others will find the time for discussing these issues a bit further. All the Best, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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