Prescribing of secret formulas like Yunnan Baiyao unethical?

[Guest guest]

Hi All & Eric,

 

Paraphrasing Eric:

> The formulation of Yunnan Baiyao (YNBY) ... is a protected secret...

> it used to be a ... family recipe from Yunnan province ... believed to

> contain ... local medicinals beyond the standard Chinese herbs common

> in international commerce. One of my teachers ... did extensive

> research on the chemistry and composition of YNBY [but] it isn't

> ...appropriate for me to discuss his research results on a public

> forum... Sanqi is NOT its main ingredient... One of its main

> ingredients is something that we are familiar with but it is likely

> that it has other active ingredients that are more obscure... It isn't

> related to Qili San. Of course, Sanqi powder can be used on its own for

> bleeding just like YNBY, but Sanqi and Yunnan Baiyao are not

> interchangeable. I'm sorry that I can't say more ... but it would be

> disrespectful of my teacher's work to go blabbing about it, and I don't

> know all the details myself in the first place.

 

Eric, I respect your wish not to discuss your teacher's private research.

 

However, failure of manufacturers to disclose the ingredients in a medicinal

formula is quite

another issue; it unacceptable to me.

 

De facto, secret formulas should be anathema to ethical professionals.

 

Under Irish / EU medical and veterinary medicinal legislation, it is

professional misconduct

[for which one can lose one's licence to practice] to use any medicinal whose

formulation is

undisclosed (secret formulas).

 

I would like to see an international, coordinated programme, backed by national

government

legislation, to ensure that:

 

1. All National CHM Discipilinary Committees make a public statement that

members who

use secret formulas will have their licence withdrawn on proof of that.

 

2. Pressure is put on all companies who manufacture for sale secret formulas to

change

their policy and list their ingredients properly.

 

3. Companies who sell products that deviate significantly from the ingredients

listed on the

labels, or who add adulterants / unlisted medicinals / unlisted substitutes be

prosecuted and

fined severely, or lose their manufacturing licence if they offend repeatedly.

 

What do you all think of those proposals?

 

CHM is getting a bad time from allopathic interests. IMO, national CHM groups

need to be

seen by the public to be 100% serious about using medicinals that can satisfy QC

protocols

that match (as far as possible) those of allopathic medicine.

 

Best regards,

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I support a movement such as what Phil is articulated. This formula full of

undisclosed herbs could ultimately come back to bite our entire profession.

 

You know, when a Chinese herbal preparation kills a few people, they don't

call it " ignorant weight-loss clinic nephropathy " but " Chinese herb

nephropathy " .

 

The undisclosed ingredients of one formula can make all of us look bad, even

those that are manufactured elsewhere.

 

-al.

 

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 9:11 AM, < wrote:

 

>

>

> Hi All & Eric,

>

> Paraphrasing Eric:

> > The formulation of Yunnan Baiyao (YNBY) ... is a protected secret...

> > it used to be a ... family recipe from Yunnan province ... believed to

> > contain ... local medicinals beyond the standard Chinese herbs common

> > in international commerce. One of my teachers ... did extensive

> > research on the chemistry and composition of YNBY [but] it isn't

> > ...appropriate for me to discuss his research results on a public

> > forum... Sanqi is NOT its main ingredient... One of its main

> > ingredients is something that we are familiar with but it is likely

> > that it has other active ingredients that are more obscure... It isn't

> > related to Qili San. Of course, Sanqi powder can be used on its own for

> > bleeding just like YNBY, but Sanqi and Yunnan Baiyao are not

> > interchangeable. I'm sorry that I can't say more ... but it would be

> > disrespectful of my teacher's work to go blabbing about it, and I don't

> > know all the details myself in the first place.

>

> Eric, I respect your wish not to discuss your teacher's private research.

>

> However, failure of manufacturers to disclose the ingredients in a

> medicinal formula is quite

> another issue; it unacceptable to me.

>

> De facto, secret formulas should be anathema to ethical professionals.

>

> Under Irish / EU medical and veterinary medicinal legislation, it is

> professional misconduct

> [for which one can lose one's licence to practice] to use any medicinal

> whose formulation is

> undisclosed (secret formulas).

>

> I would like to see an international, coordinated programme, backed by

> national government

> legislation, to ensure that:

>

> 1. All National CHM Discipilinary Committees make a public statement that

> members who

> use secret formulas will have their licence withdrawn on proof of that.

>

> 2. Pressure is put on all companies who manufacture for sale secret

> formulas to change

> their policy and list their ingredients properly.

>

> 3. Companies who sell products that deviate significantly from the

> ingredients listed on the

> labels, or who add adulterants / unlisted medicinals / unlisted substitutes

> be prosecuted and

> fined severely, or lose their manufacturing licence if they offend

> repeatedly.

>

> What do you all think of those proposals?

>

> CHM is getting a bad time from allopathic interests. IMO, national CHM

> groups need to be

> seen by the public to be 100% serious about using medicinals that can

> satisfy QC protocols

> that match (as far as possible) those of allopathic medicine.

>

> Best regards,

>

>

 

 

--

, DAOM

Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

http://twitter.com/algancao

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Phil and Al,

That's a good point... why should we keep the formula secret?

Those herbs are so weird, no one can find them anyway.

 

All of the other companies disclose their ingredients, but sometimes keep

the percentages to themselves.

 

K

 

 

 

On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 4:21 PM, Al Stone <al wrote:

 

>

>

> I support a movement such as what Phil is articulated. This formula full of

> undisclosed herbs could ultimately come back to bite our entire profession.

>

> You know, when a Chinese herbal preparation kills a few people, they don't

> call it " ignorant weight-loss clinic nephropathy " but " Chinese herb

> nephropathy " .

>

> The undisclosed ingredients of one formula can make all of us look bad,

> even

> those that are manufactured elsewhere.

>

> -al.

>

>

> On Tue, Mar 16, 2010 at 9:11 AM,

<<%40tinet.ie>>

> wrote:

>

> >

> >

> > Hi All & Eric,

> >

> > Paraphrasing Eric:

> > > The formulation of Yunnan Baiyao (YNBY) ... is a protected secret...

> > > it used to be a ... family recipe from Yunnan province ... believed to

> > > contain ... local medicinals beyond the standard Chinese herbs common

> > > in international commerce. One of my teachers ... did extensive

> > > research on the chemistry and composition of YNBY [but] it isn't

> > > ...appropriate for me to discuss his research results on a public

> > > forum... Sanqi is NOT its main ingredient... One of its main

> > > ingredients is something that we are familiar with but it is likely

> > > that it has other active ingredients that are more obscure... It isn't

> > > related to Qili San. Of course, Sanqi powder can be used on its own for

> > > bleeding just like YNBY, but Sanqi and Yunnan Baiyao are not

> > > interchangeable. I'm sorry that I can't say more ... but it would be

> > > disrespectful of my teacher's work to go blabbing about it, and I don't

> > > know all the details myself in the first place.

> >

> > Eric, I respect your wish not to discuss your teacher's private research.

> >

> > However, failure of manufacturers to disclose the ingredients in a

> > medicinal formula is quite

> > another issue; it unacceptable to me.

> >

> > De facto, secret formulas should be anathema to ethical professionals.

> >

> > Under Irish / EU medical and veterinary medicinal legislation, it is

> > professional misconduct

> > [for which one can lose one's licence to practice] to use any medicinal

> > whose formulation is

> > undisclosed (secret formulas).

> >

> > I would like to see an international, coordinated programme, backed by

> > national government

> > legislation, to ensure that:

> >

> > 1. All National CHM Discipilinary Committees make a public statement that

> > members who

> > use secret formulas will have their licence withdrawn on proof of that.

> >

> > 2. Pressure is put on all companies who manufacture for sale secret

> > formulas to change

> > their policy and list their ingredients properly.

> >

> > 3. Companies who sell products that deviate significantly from the

> > ingredients listed on the

> > labels, or who add adulterants / unlisted medicinals / unlisted

> substitutes

> > be prosecuted and

> > fined severely, or lose their manufacturing licence if they offend

> > repeatedly.

> >

> > What do you all think of those proposals?

> >

> > CHM is getting a bad time from allopathic interests. IMO, national CHM

> > groups need to be

> > seen by the public to be 100% serious about using medicinals that can

> > satisfy QC protocols

> > that match (as far as possible) those of allopathic medicine.

> >

> > Best regards,

> >

> >

>

> --

> , DAOM

> Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional.

> http://twitter.com/algancao

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

When I was practising in Europe it was illegal to import Yunnan Baiyao according

to European law (and I think it still is). Prescribing I only did 'secretly' in

cases for which I found it to be in the best interest of my patients.

 

Herman

 

, Al Stone <al wrote:

>

> I support a movement such as what Phil is articulated. This formula full of

> undisclosed herbs could ultimately come back to bite our entire profession.

>

> You know, when a Chinese herbal preparation kills a few people, they don't

> call it " ignorant weight-loss clinic nephropathy " but " Chinese herb

> nephropathy " .

>

> The undisclosed ingredients of one formula can make all of us look bad, even

> those that are manufactured elsewhere.

>

> -al.

>