Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 does huang qin actually vent? I am not sure about the word vent. Isn't venting a way to clear a pathogenic factor from the surface? Am I missing something? Chai hu vents. We could say that Ma huang vents, but it vents cold. I think you are correct, sweat, urination and purgation are the 3 main ways we clear heat in the body. Shi Gao is pungent or acrid, but I don't fully grasp how it's acridity affects its function. We use Shi Gao for clearing Yang Ming heat. for thirst, for fevers, epidemics and sweating. but it doesn't VENT per se, because it clears heat to stop sweating. and when ma huang and shi Gao are combined, MH's diaphoretic action is moderated Dr Huang has a really interesting take on ma huang. He really opens up its use. He talks about doors being open and doors being closed. Ma huang and ma huang formula families are used to open the doors: thus we can use it to promote sweating, but he also might use it to promote ovulation for a woman with a ma haunt constitution. He talks about its use to help dilate the cervix for prolonged labor. Gui Zhi and gui zhi formulas, on the other hand, are used when the doors are open. LIke using gui zhi tang for a person who catches colds or sweats easily from deficiency. Cara On Mar 27, 2010, at 5:01 PM, wrote: > Yes, Huang qin for venting heat... > Huang Huang describes 3 levels of Huang qin combinations for this in > " Clinical Application of 50 Medicinals " pg. 280 > > 1. Heat accumulation in the Qi level, use with Chai hu.. ie. Xiao chai hu > tang, Da chai hu tang, > Chai hu gui zhi gan jiang tang and Chai hu gui zhi tang > > 2. Heat accumulation in the Blood level, use with Shao yao... Gui zhi Chai > hu tang, Huang qin tang, > Da chai hu tang, Huang lian e jiao tang, Bie jia jian wan, Da huang zhe > chong wan, Ben tun tang, > Wang bu liu xing san, Dang gui san > > 3. Damp-heat obstructing the Center, use with Huang lian... > Xie xin tang formulas, Ge gen huang qin huang lian tang, Gan jiang huang qin > huang lian ren shen tang, > Huang lian e jiao tang > > What about Chai hu? any others in the Shang han lun? > Most pungent herbs fan fire for shang han... > How do you see heat being vented other than purging and through urination? > Sweat? > Ma huang opens pores in the Tai yin, is this considered heat ventilation? > Is Shi gao really pungent? (Cara) > > Cara, I didn't go to Huang Huang's SF seminar. I've been doing Arnaud > Versluys' 1.5 year program > and reading both of Huang Huang's books. > > K > > > > > O Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 5:39 AM, cara <herbbabe wrote: > > > > I think you are correct, sweat, urination and purgation are the 3 main ways > we clear heat in the body. > > Shi Gao is pungent or acrid, but I don't fully grasp how it's acridity > affects its function. > Tiende Yang speaks of how shi gao's pungent flavor can spray heat outward, then the cold qi cools it. The premise being that if you spread out the heat to reduce its concentrated and localized quality, it is easier to cool. -al. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. http://twitter.com/algancao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Cara: Shi Gao is pungent or acrid, but I don't fully grasp how it's acridity affects its function. We use Shi Gao for clearing Yang Ming heat. for thirst, for fevers, epidemics and sweating. but it doesn't VENT per se, because it clears heat to stop sweating. and when ma huang and shi Gao are combined, MH's diaphoretic action is moderated Stephen it doesn't VENT per se... I think you are exactly correct here. The model we practice under goes something like this: What is referred to as Yangming " channel " presentation is a failure of Yangming closure (Suwen 6). Due to this failed closure, the patient's yang has moved to the exterior, causing it to open and sweat to issue and heat to be greatly emitted. Shigao's acrid nature (which can be experienced by putting a little pulverized shigao on your tongue) brings its function to the exterior. The extremely cold nature closes the exterior. The heavy nature then descends and internalizes the yang (as it should in health) basically undoing the pathology described in SHL Line 176. So, I agree with your observation, Cara, it doesn't vent heat, it internalizes it Stephen Woodley LAc www.shanghanlunseminars.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Hi Cara, Jason and all, Yes... it would be useful to clarify how the SHL methodologies differ from the Wen bing ones... and then later develop ways to understand both schools better through this differentiation. The SHL developed between Yellow/ Yangtse river (Hunan) = north/west = cold-dryness. The Wen bing school began at Fujian (below the Yangtse river) = south-east = wind-heat, port city (pathogen trade) = wind-heat, damp-heat. Would you agree with this statement? SHL = formulaism (find the formulation). Wen bing = herbalism (find the herb that works) It seems that they're both useful for different situations, but it would be erroneous to say that the SHL formulations are not effective for warm disease. It's just that the Han dynasty thinkers (Nei jing/ Nan jing / Shang han za bing lun) were " sun-worshippers " who believed in the preservation of yang Qi, even while effusing pathogenic heat from the body or regulating the ying Qi with the wei Qi. Here's a bit of my notes from A. Versluys' lecture on SHL patho-physiology... " Cold = acute element, when one falls ill immediately; If one doesn’t fall immediately, the toxin is stored in the muscles and skin and in spring time, people becomes sick (warm dz) and in summer time (heat dz). In spring time yang rises and pushes out the dz. The Qi of spring is warm. Qi of summer is hot, Qi of autumn is cool, Qi of winter is cold. Your body borrows the Qi of nature. If you don’t store in winter, then you’ll be sick the next season. If the patient doesn’t get sick in one season, they’ll show the signs next season " This follows lines from the Nei jing in connection with time and nature that we forget these days. This is the profound relationship that the Han dynasty thinkers had with our inner/ outer nature. Nan jing 58. There are 5 types of cold damage… wind strike (wood), cold damage(water), damp warmth(earth), heat (fire) and warmth (metal)… The Shang han zan bing lun formulas can treat all of these pathogenic factors, but the underlying theme seems to be preservation of yang Qi, as we're warm-blooded animals, requiring yang Qi for life functioning. Yang Qi is life... when it leaves us completely (separation), we're done for. Zhang Zhong Jing's formulas are the original Spleen/Stomach school... check out the formulas..consistently preserving the central burner and upholding the clear Yang Qi. How was the Wen bing school(s) a reaction or development of this? and in what cases do you choose Wen bing formulas over SHL formulas? K -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Stephen, Cara, Jason and all, yes.. Venting is an interesting concept in the SHL sense... Which herbs or herbal combination would make this happen? Does Ma huang vent heat? Ma huang is a Tai yin/Tai yang herb. If it opens the doors/pores, would it also " vent " heat in combination with Shi gao? by opening the door and letting the heat escape? What about Chai hu? Shao yang is the pivot... supposedly it brings the fire downwards. Is it true that yang conformational herbs generally descend, while yin conformational herbs ascend? Yang channels descend, while Yin channels ascend. Then, Chai hu would be primarily a descending herb, not an ascending herb, as we're taught in TCM, right? When Li Dong Yuan uses Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang, is it to downbear the turbid yin, in order to raise the clear yang? or is it a cool, light herb that makes the Qi float and " vent " ? Does it's directionality depend on the dosage and the combination of herbs it's used with? K On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 9:32 AM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote: > > > Cara: > > Shi Gao is pungent or acrid, but I don't fully grasp how it's > acridity affects its function. We use Shi Gao for clearing Yang > Ming heat. for thirst, for fevers, epidemics and sweating. but it > doesn't VENT per se, because it clears heat to stop sweating. and > when ma huang and shi Gao are combined, MH's diaphoretic action > is moderated > > Stephen > it doesn't VENT per se... > I think you are exactly correct here. The model we practice under > goes something like this: > > What is referred to as Yangming " channel " presentation is a > failure of Yangming closure (Suwen 6). Due to this failed > closure, the patient's yang has moved to the exterior, causing it > to open and sweat to issue and heat to be greatly emitted. > Shigao's acrid nature (which can be experienced by putting a > little pulverized shigao on your tongue) brings its function to > the exterior. The extremely cold nature closes the exterior. The > heavy nature then descends and internalizes the yang (as it > should in health) basically undoing the pathology described in > SHL Line 176. > So, I agree with your observation, Cara, it doesn't vent heat, it > internalizes it > > Stephen Woodley LAc > www.shanghanlunseminars.com > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: > http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Thanks John (and others) for the notes/thoughts you are sharing. All very interesting. RoseAnne On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 12:47 PM, <johnkokko wrote: > Hi Cara, Jason and all, > > Yes... it would be useful to clarify how the SHL methodologies > differ from the Wen bing ones... and then later develop ways to understand > both schools better through this differentiation. > > The SHL developed between Yellow/ Yangtse river (Hunan) = north/west = > cold-dryness. > The Wen bing school began at Fujian (below the Yangtse river) = south-east > = > wind-heat, port city (pathogen trade) = wind-heat, damp-heat. > > Would you agree with this statement? > > SHL = formulaism (find the formulation). Wen bing = herbalism (find the > herb that works) > It seems that they're both useful for different situations, > but it would be erroneous to say that the SHL formulations are not > effective > for warm disease. > It's just that the Han dynasty thinkers (Nei jing/ Nan jing / Shang han za > bing lun) were " sun-worshippers " who believed in the preservation of yang > Qi, even while effusing pathogenic heat from the body or regulating the > ying > Qi with the wei Qi. > > Here's a bit of my notes from A. Versluys' lecture on SHL > patho-physiology... > > " Cold = acute element, when one falls ill immediately; If one doesn’t fall > immediately, the toxin is stored in the muscles and skin and in spring > time, > people becomes sick (warm dz) and in summer time (heat dz). In spring time > yang rises and pushes out the dz. The Qi of spring is warm. Qi of summer > is > hot, Qi of autumn is cool, Qi of winter is cold. Your body borrows the Qi > of nature. If you don’t store in winter, then you’ll be sick the next > season. If the patient doesn’t get sick in one season, they’ll show the > signs next season " > > This follows lines from the Nei jing in connection with time and nature > that > we forget these days. This is the profound relationship that the Han > dynasty thinkers had with our inner/ outer nature. > Nan jing 58. There are 5 types of cold damage… wind strike (wood), cold > damage(water), damp warmth(earth), heat (fire) and warmth (metal)… > > The Shang han zan bing lun formulas can treat all of these pathogenic > factors, but the underlying theme seems to be preservation of yang Qi, as > we're warm-blooded animals, requiring yang Qi for life functioning. Yang > Qi > is life... when it leaves us completely (separation), we're done for. > Zhang > Zhong Jing's formulas are the original Spleen/Stomach school... check out > the formulas..consistently preserving the central burner and upholding the > clear Yang Qi. > > How was the Wen bing school(s) a reaction or development of this? > and in what cases do you choose Wen bing formulas over SHL formulas? > > K > -- > > > "" > > > www.tcmreview.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 (see below) On Behalf Of (John) SHL = formulaism (find the formulation). Wen bing = herbalism (find the herb that works) - I think this is a bit incorrect, any misunderstanding of warm disease theory... (John) but it would be erroneous to say that the SHL formulations are not effective for warm disease. - I don't believe for a minute that SHL can treat the full range of warm diseases. -Jason Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Do you have any source that says that Chai Hu descends? -Jason On Behalf Of What about Chai hu? Shao yang is the pivot... supposedly it brings the fire downwards. Is it true that yang conformational herbs generally descend, while yin conformational herbs ascend? Yang channels descend, while Yin channels ascend. Then, Chai hu would be primarily a descending herb, not an ascending herb, as we're taught in TCM, right? When Li Dong Yuan uses Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang, is it to downbear the turbid yin, in order to raise the clear yang? or is it a cool, light herb that makes the Qi float and " vent " ? Does it's directionality depend on the dosage and the combination of herbs it's used with? K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 thank you Stephen. that is a very helpful image Cara On Mar 28, 2010, at 12:32 PM, stephen woodley wrote: > Cara: > Shi Gao is pungent or acrid, but I don't fully grasp how it's > acridity affects its function. We use Shi Gao for clearing Yang > Ming heat. for thirst, for fevers, epidemics and sweating. but it > doesn't VENT per se, because it clears heat to stop sweating. and > when ma huang and shi Gao are combined, MH's diaphoretic action > is moderated > > Stephen > it doesn't VENT per se... > I think you are exactly correct here. The model we practice under > goes something like this: > > What is referred to as Yangming " channel " presentation is a > failure of Yangming closure (Suwen 6). Due to this failed > closure, the patient's yang has moved to the exterior, causing it > to open and sweat to issue and heat to be greatly emitted. > Shigao's acrid nature (which can be experienced by putting a > little pulverized shigao on your tongue) brings its function to > the exterior. The extremely cold nature closes the exterior. The > heavy nature then descends and internalizes the yang (as it > should in health) basically undoing the pathology described in > SHL Line 176. > So, I agree with your observation, Cara, it doesn't vent heat, it > internalizes it > > Stephen Woodley LAc > www.shanghanlunseminars.com > > -- > http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: > http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 I think it does vent heat when combined with shi gao. that is the basis for ma xing shi gan tang. and also yue bi tang. another formula that uses this dui yao is fang feng tong sheng san and the focus there is on interior/ exterior excess. I have never seen ay reference to chai hu descending. The closest analogy to that that i can think of is the use of sheng ma in the formula Ji Chuan Jian; in that formula the sheng ma raises the clear qi so that the turbid can descend. in BZYQT, chai hu supports huang qi in raising the qi- collapse, prolapse, etc. and also may have a role in venting a latent pathogenic factor ( BZYQT is referenced for low grade lingering fevers). Yang comes down from heaven, yin comes up from the earth: this may be the imagery that you are looking for?? Cara On Mar 28, 2010, at 2:55 PM, wrote: > Stephen, Cara, Jason and all, > yes.. Venting is an interesting concept in the SHL sense... > Which herbs or herbal combination would make this happen? > > Does Ma huang vent heat? Ma huang is a Tai yin/Tai yang herb. > If it opens the doors/pores, would it also " vent " heat in combination with > Shi gao? > by opening the door and letting the heat escape? > > What about Chai hu? Shao yang is the pivot... supposedly it brings the > fire downwards. > Is it true that yang conformational herbs generally descend, while yin > conformational herbs ascend? Yang channels descend, while Yin channels > ascend. Then, Chai hu would be primarily a descending herb, not an > ascending herb, as we're taught in TCM, right? > > When Li Dong Yuan uses Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang, is it to downbear the > turbid yin, in order to raise the clear yang? or is it a cool, light herb > that makes the Qi float and " vent " ? > Does it's directionality depend on the dosage and the combination of herbs > it's used with? > > K > > On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 9:32 AM, stephen woodley <learntcmwrote: > > > > > > > Cara: > > > > Shi Gao is pungent or acrid, but I don't fully grasp how it's > > acridity affects its function. We use Shi Gao for clearing Yang > > Ming heat. for thirst, for fevers, epidemics and sweating. but it > > doesn't VENT per se, because it clears heat to stop sweating. and > > when ma huang and shi Gao are combined, MH's diaphoretic action > > is moderated > > > > Stephen > > it doesn't VENT per se... > > I think you are exactly correct here. The model we practice under > > goes something like this: > > > > What is referred to as Yangming " channel " presentation is a > > failure of Yangming closure (Suwen 6). Due to this failed > > closure, the patient's yang has moved to the exterior, causing it > > to open and sweat to issue and heat to be greatly emitted. > > Shigao's acrid nature (which can be experienced by putting a > > little pulverized shigao on your tongue) brings its function to > > the exterior. The extremely cold nature closes the exterior. The > > heavy nature then descends and internalizes the yang (as it > > should in health) basically undoing the pathology described in > > SHL Line 176. > > So, I agree with your observation, Cara, it doesn't vent heat, it > > internalizes it > > > > Stephen Woodley LAc > > www.shanghanlunseminars.com > > > > -- > > http://www.fastmail.fm - One of many happy users: > > http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/quotes.html > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Jason, the Shen nong ben cao jing lists Chai hu as a superior class herb that has the following properties: bitter taste with balanced Qi. (Blue Poppy pg. 28) Since channels were not listed until around a thousand years later, the taste of the herb told us about the directionality of the herbs. I don't think anyone would debate that the bitter taste is down-bearing / draining, according to the classics. (well, maybe we can debate about this too) If Chai hu is listed with a sweet and pungent (acrid) taste as it does today in most materia medicas ie. Bensky, that reflects the perspective that we're looking at it, as up-bearing or out-bearing and assisting Tai yin herbs such as Huang qi and Ren shen to raise the clear yang Qi. I posed this as a question, not a statement. So, is it a consensus that Chai hu is sweet and acrid, raising the clear yang Qi?... not according to the Shen nong ben cao jing. Is this the way that the SHL viewed Chai hu (sweet and acrid) or is this a development from the Pi wei lun school? Li dong yuan uses 2-3 fen of Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang in relation to 1 qian of Huang qi, 5 fen of Zhi gan cao and between 2-3 fen each for the rest of the ingredients in the formula... pg. 87 Treatise on the Spleen & Stomach New edition 2004 Blue Poppy. Dosages in the SHL of Chai hu range from 1/2 Jin (~24 gms) for Xiao chai hu tang to 8 gms for Si ni san (pgs. 158-159 Clinical Application of 50 Medicinals Huang Huang) How does the directionality of Chai hu change when the dosage goes up and down? K On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 1:05 PM, < > wrote: > > > Do you have any source that says that Chai Hu descends? > > -Jason > > > <%40> > [ <%40>\ ] > On Behalf Of > > What about Chai hu? Shao yang is the pivot... supposedly it brings the > fire downwards. > Is it true that yang conformational herbs generally descend, while yin > conformational herbs ascend? Yang channels descend, while Yin channels > ascend. Then, Chai hu would be primarily a descending herb, not an > ascending herb, as we're taught in TCM, right? > > When Li Dong Yuan uses Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang, is it to downbear > the > turbid yin, in order to raise the clear yang? or is it a cool, light herb > that makes the Qi float and " vent " ? > Does it's directionality depend on the dosage and the combination of herbs > it's used with? > > K > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Jason: do you have any source that says that Chai Hu descends? Stephen: Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing Chai Hu is bitter and balanced... Stephen Woodley LAc www.shanghanlunseminars.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Email service worth paying for. Try it for free Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Kokko SHL = formulaism (find the formulation). Wen bing = herbalism (find the herb that works) Stephen: I agree with the non-parenthetical part SHL = formulaism (is that a word?) Wen Bing = herbalism but I am not sure that the exact wording: find the herb that works represents your thoughts accurately. It could be interpreted as saying that Wen Bing treats with single herbs which I know is not what you meant. how about this one? SHL = functional (pulse based) WB = material (tongue based) Stephen Woodley LAc www.shanghanlunseminars.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - IMAP accessible web-mail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Just to be clear SNBCJ does not say chai hu descends. I think you are reading into this idea of bitterness. I am not aware of anything that says that a bitter herb must descend. Just for the record, in the SNBCJ both ju hua and ma huang (among others) are bitter. Modern materia medicas often assign an herb to be ¡°bitter¡± and also ¡°ascend¡±, for example, ma huang is ¡°bitter its taste is thin, and it is the yang within yin, it therefore produces sweat and ascends.¡± Jiao Shu-de also says Chai hu is *bitter* yet uplifts yang qi. (as does Bensky) BTW ¨C draining does not equal downbearing or descending, I think we have a terminology issue here. Drains = xie (ža or й), and descend or directs downwards is usually something like jiang (½µ). So we have phrases that clearly talk about downbearing with bitterness such as ¡°open with acridity and downbear with bitterness¡± (ÐÁ¿ª¿à½µ xin kai ku jiang), but as with all Chinese medicine it does not mean that all bitterness downbears. Quite simply, many herbs¡¯ taste are due to the actual taste, for example bitter. But such a taste still can ascend. -Jason On Behalf Of Sunday, March 28, 2010 3:34 PM Re: Shang Han Herbs/ Wen Bing Herbs Jason, the Shen nong ben cao jing lists Chai hu as a superior class herb that has the following properties: bitter taste with balanced Qi. (Blue Poppy pg. 28) Since channels were not listed until around a thousand years later, the taste of the herb told us about the directionality of the herbs. I don't think anyone would debate that the bitter taste is down-bearing / draining, according to the classics. (well, maybe we can debate about this too) If Chai hu is listed with a sweet and pungent (acrid) taste as it does today in most materia medicas ie. Bensky, that reflects the perspective that we're looking at it, as up-bearing or out-bearing and assisting Tai yin herbs such as Huang qi and Ren shen to raise the clear yang Qi. I posed this as a question, not a statement. So, is it a consensus that Chai hu is sweet and acrid, raising the clear yang Qi?... not according to the Shen nong ben cao jing. Is this the way that the SHL viewed Chai hu (sweet and acrid) or is this a development from the Pi wei lun school? Li dong yuan uses 2-3 fen of Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang in relation to 1 qian of Huang qi, 5 fen of Zhi gan cao and between 2-3 fen each for the rest of the ingredients in the formula... pg. 87 Treatise on the Spleen & Stomach New edition 2004 Blue Poppy. Dosages in the SHL of Chai hu range from 1/2 Jin (~24 gms) for Xiao chai hu tang to 8 gms for Si ni san (pgs. 158-159 Clinical Application of 50 Medicinals Huang Huang) How does the directionality of Chai hu change when the dosage goes up and down? K Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Stephen, that's funny... I'm not sure if the WB network would agree with your statement either... " SHL = functional (pulse based) WB = material (tongue based) " I can definitely agree that the SHL is not tongue based, as this is a much later diagnostic feature used in the SHL, but the Wen bing might also be pulse based as well. I think that most people will think that the WB is functional as well as material, just as the SHL is both. One thing that seems clear is that the SHL can deal with both cold and warm pathogens, but emphasizes shang han, while the WB emphatically does not deal with shang han. My question is... if you live in a northern city are you seeing more SHL or WB cases? and what about in Miami? What about in a climate like Boulder, CO, where it's dry and hot in the summer and dry and cold in the Winter? K e <> > . > > > -- "" www.tcmreview.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 There are a lot of issues and questions to be asked here... 1. Are herb tastes more functional or literal in the SNBCJ and in modern materia medicas? 2. Did the SHL follow the SNBCJ herb flavors and Qi descriptions or a different materia medica that existed at that time period? 3. Did the SHL follow the Nei jing rules of tastes? (Chap 22, 74) 4. Are we to follow the SNBCJ herb flavors and descriptions or a modern materia medica, such as Jiao Shu-De or Bensky for our understandings of herbs today? What about for our understanding of SHL formulas? Does the SNBCJ say that bitter Ju hua or Ma huang ascends or descends? It does say that Ma huang is " bitter and warm.... effuses the exterior through sweating (doesn't say ascend)... suppresses cough and counterflow qi ascent (this could be construed actually that this bitter herb actually makes Qi descend) pg. 51 Blue Poppy SNBCJ Ju hua is also listed as " bitter and balanced " , but does not say that it makes Qi ascend or descend. I'm wondering if the Ju hua listed in the SNBCJ was closer to ye ju hua, which definitely tastes bitter to the tongue or the bai ju hua that grows in Hang zhou, which literally tastes sweet. Su wen chapter 74 : Of the six flavors, 3 are yin and 3 are yang. Yin = salty, bitter, sour Yang = sweet, pungent, bland Line 122... " Qi-bo replied: Pungent and sweet flavors, which can initiate and disperse, belong to yang. Sour and bitter flavors, which can excrete belong to yin. Salty flavor, which can excrete belongs to yin. Mild flavor (bland), which can penetrate and excrete, belongs to yang. " pg. 350 Henry Lu 2004 Jason, I never said that downbearing (jiang) equals draining (xie) in terminology, but if an herb is draining, really which direction is it going to go? K 2010/3/28 > > > > > Just to be clear SNBCJ does not say chai hu descends. I think you are > reading into this idea of bitterness. I am not aware of anything that says > that a bitter herb must descend. Just for the record, in the SNBCJ both ju > hua and ma huang (among others) are bitter. > > Modern materia medicas often assign an herb to be " bitter " and also > " ascend " , for example, ma huang is " bitter its taste is thin, and it is > the yang within yin, it therefore produces sweat and ascends. " Jiao Shu-de > also says Chai hu is *bitter* yet uplifts yang qi. (as does Bensky) > > BTW - draining does not equal downbearing or descending, I think we have a > terminology issue here. Drains = xie (ža or й), and descend or directs > downwards is usually something like jiang (½µ). > > So we have phrases that clearly talk about downbearing with bitterness such > as " open with acridity and downbear with bitterness " (ÐÁ¿ª¿à½µ xin kai ku > jiang), but as with all Chinese medicine it does not mean that all > bitterness downbears. Quite simply, many herbs' taste are due to the actual > taste, for example bitter. But such a taste still can ascend. > > > -Jason > > <%40> > [ <%40>\ ] > On Behalf Of > Sunday, March 28, 2010 3:34 PM > <%40> > Re: Shang Han Herbs/ Wen Bing Herbs > > > Jason, > the Shen nong ben cao jing lists Chai hu as a superior class herb that has > the following properties: bitter taste with balanced Qi. (Blue Poppy pg. > 28) > > Since channels were not listed until around a thousand years later, the > taste of the herb told us about the directionality of the herbs. I don't > think anyone would debate that the bitter taste is down-bearing / draining, > according to the classics. (well, maybe we can debate about this too) > > If Chai hu is listed with a sweet and pungent (acrid) taste as it does > today > in most materia medicas ie. Bensky, that reflects the perspective that > we're > looking at it, as up-bearing or out-bearing and assisting Tai yin herbs > such > as Huang qi and Ren shen to raise the clear yang Qi. > > I posed this as a question, not a statement. So, is it a consensus that > Chai hu is sweet and acrid, raising the clear yang Qi?... not according to > the Shen nong ben cao jing. > > Is this the way that the SHL viewed Chai hu (sweet and acrid) or is this a > development from the Pi wei lun school? > > Li dong yuan uses 2-3 fen of Chai hu in Bu zhong yi qi tang in relation to > 1 qian of Huang qi, 5 fen of Zhi gan cao and between 2-3 fen each for the > rest of the ingredients in the formula... > pg. 87 Treatise on the Spleen & Stomach New edition 2004 Blue Poppy. > > Dosages in the SHL of Chai hu range from 1/2 Jin (~24 gms) for Xiao chai hu > tang to 8 gms for Si ni san (pgs. 158-159 Clinical Application of 50 > Medicinals Huang Huang) > > How does the directionality of Chai hu change when the dosage goes up and > down? > > K > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 Jason- With respect to chaihu, it is predominantly a gallbladder/shaoyang medicinal in the SHL/JGYL, no? I think we can agree that chaihu frees the flow within the gallbladder channel. The flow of the gallbladder channel (and yang in general) is from top to bottom. Wouldn't it make more sense to talk of bitter chaihu as descending gallbladder qi? Perhaps the way in which it " lifts " is in ensuring that the gallbladder properly descends thus allowing the liver qi to rise? The main reason I think that chaihu has a strong descending property (and maybe this is because of the dose I regularly use in XCHT and its modifications) is that I have used it to great effect like that in clinic so often. -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. O.M. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak 773-470-6994 On Mar 28, 2010, at 9:53 PM, wrote: > I am not aware of anything that says > that a bitter herb must descend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2010 Report Share Posted March 28, 2010 On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 2:33 PM, <johnkokko wrote: > > > If Chai hu is listed with a sweet and pungent (acrid) taste as it does > today > in most materia medicas ie. Bensky, that reflects the perspective that > we're > looking at it, as up-bearing or out-bearing and assisting Tai yin herbs > such > as Huang qi and Ren shen to raise the clear yang Qi. > I don't think that Chai hu lifts through the tai yin. This is a shao yang herb. The shao yang has a natural upward direction. It is like the rising warming sun. Tiende Yang once said that the shao yang is the warm energy that lifts the tai yin upward. > > How does the directionality of Chai hu change when the dosage goes up and > down? > chai hu for guiding to or regulating the shao yang: small dosage chai hu for lifting: medium dosage chai hu for venting heat: large dosage This is how I think of it, anyway. -al. -- , DAOM Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. http://twitter.com/algancao Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Stephen B I think we can agree that chaihu frees the flow within the gallbladder channel. The flow of the gallbladder channel (and yang in general) is from top to bottom. Wouldn't it make more sense to talk of bitter chaihu as descending gallbladder qi? Stephen W Excellent point - well made Jason, in the past you've made the excellent point that when analyzing classical texts, one should use classical dictionaries. Along these lines, quoting 20th century texts to define something from the Han Dynasty is perhaps off target. Question: What functions do you ascribe to the bitter taste and what are the mechinisms by which you would say that this is accomplished? Stephen Woodley LAc www.shanghanlunseminars.com -- http://www.fastmail.fm - Same, same, but different... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Steve et al, This is a interesting proposition, but I still do not understand why it " makes sense to talk about bitter chai hu as descending gallbladder qi? " It might be useful for you to submit such a case study that demonstrates that Chai Hu descends gallbladder qi. As is, I just don't get it. It is my opinion, instead of trying to create a new function for the herb it may be useful to try to explain things from what we know from historical record and theory. There are many ways to explain why one might see a " descending " result from something like chai hu. For example, constraint of wood can inhibit the qi dynamic (e.g. ascending and descending functions) of the liver and gallbladder as well as the middle burner. Therefore merely resolving constraint can have an effect on the ascending and descending functions. However possibly more important is what is said in The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Internal Medicine-The Simple Questions-Hung Di Nei Jing-Su Wen. It states, " When the clear yang is not upborne then the turbid yin cannot be downborne. " The Medical Chapters (Yi Pian) states, " If one desires upbear it, one must first downbear it and only afterward will it be upborne, if one desires to downbear it, one must first upbear it and only afterward will it be downborne. " This point is simple. If one has turbid yin in the head (and it needs to descend) then one does *not* employ descending medicinals. Contrarily, one employs ascending medicinals which then creates a descending action. Consequently, these medicinals that ascend are not considered descending medicinals because they have this secondary action. Li Gao sums this up, " Although down-bearing [methods] are indicated, one may simultaneously use up-bearing methods, Once the clear yang has been up-borne, the [qi] of a turbid nature must easily be down-borne. When upbearing, one may not simultaneously use down-bearing [methods in equal degrees] lest one assist in the force of its downward fall. In addition, [such a strategy] does not support the strength of the up-bearing medicinals. " Therefore jie geng ascends the clear yang and consequently assists and descending turbid yin. It is *not* that jie geng descends. The same can be said for others such as chaihu. I still would like to see some historical evidence of people talking about chai hu descending otherwise I see no point in trying to make up new theory (at my level at least). Regards, -Jason On Behalf Of Stephen Bonzak Sunday, March 28, 2010 10:15 PM Re: Shang Han Herbs/ Wen Bing Herbs Jason- With respect to chaihu, it is predominantly a gallbladder/shaoyang medicinal in the SHL/JGYL, no? I think we can agree that chaihu frees the flow within the gallbladder channel. The flow of the gallbladder channel (and yang in general) is from top to bottom. Wouldn't it make more sense to talk of bitter chaihu as descending gallbladder qi? Perhaps the way in which it " lifts " is in ensuring that the gallbladder properly descends thus allowing the liver qi to rise? The main reason I think that chaihu has a strong descending property (and maybe this is because of the dose I regularly use in XCHT and its modifications) is that I have used it to great effect like that in clinic so often. -Steve Stephen Bonzak, L.Ac., Dipl. O.M. http://www.health-traditions.com sbonzak <sbonzak%40pacificcollege.edu> 773-470-6994 On Mar 28, 2010, at 9:53 PM, wrote: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Al, we're not exactly on the same page.... I'm saying that Chai hu is a shao yang conformation herb (SHL), which is viewed as assisting tai yin conformational herbs such as Ren shen and Huang qi to upbear clear yang Qi.. The Spleen (tai yin) is known as the predominant organ to upbear clear yang Qi, right? Now, the mechanism in which Chai hu does this is the matter of debate. Does it downbear turbid yin or dredge the shao yang channel (GB) in order to allow for the clear yang Qi to ascend? or does it ascend directly through the GB channel? For dosages of Chai hu I learned it a little differently than you listed... small dose to raise Qi (Bu zhong yi qi tang), middle dose to harmonize Qi (Si ni san, Xiao yao san) high dose to clear heat from Shao yang (Xiao chai hu tang) K On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Al Stone <al wrote: > > > On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 2:33 PM, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > > > > > If Chai hu is listed with a sweet and pungent (acrid) taste as it does > > today > > in most materia medicas ie. Bensky, that reflects the perspective that > > we're > > looking at it, as up-bearing or out-bearing and assisting Tai yin herbs > > such > > as Huang qi and Ren shen to raise the clear yang Qi. > > > I don't think that Chai hu lifts through the tai yin. This is a shao yang > herb. The shao yang has a natural upward direction. It is like the rising > warming sun. Tiende Yang once said that the shao yang is the warm energy > that lifts the tai yin upward. > > > > > > How does the directionality of Chai hu change when the dosage goes up and > > down? > > > > chai hu for guiding to or regulating the shao yang: small dosage > chai hu for lifting: medium dosage > chai hu for venting heat: large dosage > > This is how I think of it, anyway. > > > -al. > > -- > , DAOM > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > http://twitter.com/algancao > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 this is how I learned it as well. > > small dose to raise Qi (Bu zhong yi qi tang), > middle dose to harmonize Qi (Si ni san, Xiao yao san) > high dose to clear heat from Shao yang (Xiao chai hu tang) > K > > On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 11:55 PM, Al Stone <al wrote: > > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 28, 2010 at 2:33 PM, <johnkokko<johnkokko%40gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > If Chai hu is listed with a sweet and pungent (acrid) taste as it does > > > today > > > in most materia medicas ie. Bensky, that reflects the perspective that > > > we're > > > looking at it, as up-bearing or out-bearing and assisting Tai yin herbs > > > such > > > as Huang qi and Ren shen to raise the clear yang Qi. > > > > > I don't think that Chai hu lifts through the tai yin. This is a shao yang > > herb. The shao yang has a natural upward direction. It is like the rising > > warming sun. Tiende Yang once said that the shao yang is the warm energy > > that lifts the tai yin upward. > > > > > > > > > > How does the directionality of Chai hu change when the dosage goes up and > > > down? > > > > > > > chai hu for guiding to or regulating the shao yang: small dosage > > chai hu for lifting: medium dosage > > chai hu for venting heat: large dosage > > > > This is how I think of it, anyway. > > > > > > -al. > > > > -- > > , DAOM > > Pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. > > http://twitter.com/algancao > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 John, WB also deals with cold damage. For example, spring warmth disease is spurred by a new attack of wind or cold that stirs up latent warmth. . . On Mar 28, 2010, at 8:11 PM, wrote: > Stephen, > that's funny... I'm not sure if the WB network would agree with your > statement either... > " SHL = functional (pulse based) > WB = material (tongue based) " > > I can definitely agree that the SHL is not tongue based, as this is a much > later diagnostic feature used in the SHL, > but the Wen bing might also be pulse based as well. > I think that most people will think that the WB is functional as well as > material, > just as the SHL is both. > > One thing that seems clear is that the SHL can deal with both cold and warm > pathogens, > but emphasizes shang han, while the WB emphatically does not deal with shang > han. > > My question is... if you live in a northern city are you seeing more SHL or > WB cases? > and what about in Miami? What about in a climate like Boulder, CO, where > it's dry and hot in the summer > and dry and cold in the Winter? > > K > > e <> > > . > > > > > > > > -- > > > "" > > > www.tcmreview.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Jason- On Mar 29, 2010, at 8:02 AM, wrote: > Steve et al, > > This is a interesting proposition, but I still do not understand > why it > " makes sense to talk about bitter chai hu as descending gallbladder > qi? " It > might be useful for you to submit such a case study that > demonstrates that > Chai Hu descends gallbladder qi. As is, I just don't get it. > I would be happy to provide one when I get a bit of time to do so. Hopefully this week. > It is my opinion, instead of trying to create a new function for > the herb it > may be useful to try to explain things from what we know from > historical > record and theory. There are many ways to explain why one might see a > " descending " result from something like chai hu. For example, > constraint of > wood can inhibit the qi dynamic (e.g. ascending and descending > functions) of > the liver and gallbladder as well as the middle burner. Therefore > merely > resolving constraint can have an effect on the ascending and > descending > functions. > I fail to see how this is " creat[ing] a new function for the herb " as all I am doing is trying to understand the herb as it is used in the context of the SHL/JGYL (my current topic of study and practice). The SNBCJ was main materia medica during the time of the SHL/JGYL and chaihu is clearly a bitter herb in that text. Maybe you know when CH became known as predominantly an acrid herb and why? If CH is considered acrid, then I can absolutely see why lifting and liver dispersing functions are ascribed to it. If it is considered bitter, then it becomes problematic. There is no function in the Neijing or other classical text describing bitter as a lifting and dispersing medicinal, at least as far as I know. > However possibly more important is what is said in The Yellow > Emperor's > Classic of Internal Medicine-The Simple Questions-Hung Di Nei Jing- > Su Wen. > It states, " When the clear yang is not upborne then the turbid yin > cannot be > downborne. " The Medical Chapters (Yi Pian) states, " If one desires > upbear > it, one must first downbear it and only afterward will it be > upborne, if one > desires to downbear it, one must first upbear it and only afterward > will it > be downborne. " > I cannot locate this in my copy of the Neijing. What chapter are you referring to? > This point is simple. If one has turbid yin in the head (and it > needs to > descend) then one does *not* employ descending medicinals. > Contrarily, one > employs ascending medicinals which then creates a descending action. > Consequently, these medicinals that ascend are not considered > descending > medicinals because they have this secondary action. Li Gao sums > this up, > > " Although down-bearing [methods] are indicated, one may > simultaneously use > up-bearing methods, Once the clear yang has been up-borne, the [qi] > of a > turbid nature must easily be down-borne. When upbearing, one may not > simultaneously use down-bearing [methods in equal degrees] lest one > assist > in the force of its downward fall. In addition, [such a strategy] > does not > support the strength of the up-bearing medicinals. " > > Therefore jie geng ascends the clear yang and consequently assists and > descending turbid yin. It is *not* that jie geng descends. The same > can be > said for others such as chaihu. > I am familiar with this theory and Li Dong-Yuan, thanks. If it is your contention that chaihu descends because it lifts first (which is what I think you are saying here), then CH has to have an acrid flavor. This understanding of CH falls apart, however, if it is considered a bitter herb, as bitter does not lift or ascend. According to the Neijing Suwen Chapter 22 bitter has the following actions: 1) it dries the spleen, 2) it purges the spleen, 3) it drains the lung, and 4) it tonifies the kidney. If we consider that CH is bitter according to the SNBCJ, how would you describe its functionality? > I still would like to see some historical evidence of people > talking about > chai hu descending otherwise I see no point in trying to make up > new theory > (at my level at least). > At least according to SNBCJ standards, Li Dong-Yuan and others were the ones making up a new theory. I do not want to imply that this is not a popular and intriguing theory, as many many who practice TCM use it as if it were acrid, lifting, and dispersing. It is not my intention to say that those that think that are wrong. I want to know how it was used in the formulas I am studying. In those formulas it is considered to be bitter. I have no idea how and when it became acrid instead of bitter. I would love to know more about who made this theory up and why. If you have anything that can clear that up, I would love to hear about it. Best -Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2010 Report Share Posted March 29, 2010 Stephan x2, a) When we started this conversation about chai hu it was John who brought it up. From the e-mail, there was nothing that suggested we are only talking about SHL. Quite simply he stated Chai Hu would be primarily a descending herb not an ascending herb. Therefore I approached this investigation by looking at a survey of historical record in understanding of chai hu, all the way up to the present. b) However, I did reference over 20 classical texts/Materia Medica's discussing chai hu, and none of them mention anything about descending. If there is one that I missed, please let me know. The reason I mentioned Bensky and Jiao Shu-De is because most people have access to these English texts, which really are just reporting what centuries of physicians have already said. Talking about the Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing is not very useful because there is no mention of ascending or descending function at this period of time. Since they didn't, it is all just pure speculation. When speculating, I would rather trust the thousands of commentators that came before me who which have a much better understanding of the time period than myself. c) Consequently, I do not buy the fact that just because the Shen Nong Ben Cao Jing attributes a bitter quality to chai hu that it must descend. You can create any story you like if it fits your needs, however the fact remains that centuries of doctors consider it ascending (and they still call it bitter today! As well centuries ago). There are hundreds of commentaries on the Shang Han Lun, if conceptualizing chai hu in this manner was a useful idea then someone should be able to find a mention of this. Otherwise, I see no point in going against the grain on this one. If we cannot find any major thread of thought/reference in historical record that really there is no debate in my opinion. If we find something, then we can look at exactly what they are talking about and maybe it will give us a further insight into this medicinal. d) For the record, drain (xie) often refers to merely eliminating heat (or other pathogens). There is no indication, that I know of, that herbs that drain must descend. Furthermore, to answer Stephan herbs that are bitter are said to drain you (among other things). This quite simply means in many cases clearing heat and has nothing do with descending nature. Also herbs that enter the heart were attributed to bitter. Again, nothing to do with downbearing. As shown, many herbs are bitter and have an ascending nature and some no ascending or descending nature. Sometimes in classical times this is purely is in reference to taste. That is it for me. Enjoy. -Jason On Behalf Of Stephen Bonzak Monday, March 29, 2010 6:13 PM Re: Shang Han Herbs/ Wen Bing Herbs Jason- On Mar 29, 2010, at 8:02 AM, wrote: > Steve et al, > > This is a interesting proposition, but I still do not understand > why it > " makes sense to talk about bitter chai hu as descending gallbladder > qi? " It > might be useful for you to submit such a case study that > demonstrates that > Chai Hu descends gallbladder qi. As is, I just don't get it. > I would be happy to provide one when I get a bit of time to do so. Hopefully this week. > It is my opinion, instead of trying to create a new function for > the herb it > may be useful to try to explain things from what we know from > historical > record and theory. There are many ways to explain why one might see a > " descending " result from something like chai hu. For example, > constraint of > wood can inhibit the qi dynamic (e.g. ascending and descending > functions) of > the liver and gallbladder as well as the middle burner. Therefore > merely > resolving constraint can have an effect on the ascending and > descending > functions. > I fail to see how this is " creat[ing] a new function for the herb " as all I am doing is trying to understand the herb as it is used in the context of the SHL/JGYL (my current topic of study and practice). The SNBCJ was main materia medica during the time of the SHL/JGYL and chaihu is clearly a bitter herb in that text. Maybe you know when CH became known as predominantly an acrid herb and why? If CH is considered acrid, then I can absolutely see why lifting and liver dispersing functions are ascribed to it. If it is considered bitter, then it becomes problematic. There is no function in the Neijing or other classical text describing bitter as a lifting and dispersing medicinal, at least as far as I know. > However possibly more important is what is said in The Yellow > Emperor's > Classic of Internal Medicine-The Simple Questions-Hung Di Nei Jing- > Su Wen. > It states, " When the clear yang is not upborne then the turbid yin > cannot be > downborne. " The Medical Chapters (Yi Pian) states, " If one desires > upbear > it, one must first downbear it and only afterward will it be > upborne, if one > desires to downbear it, one must first upbear it and only afterward > will it > be downborne. " > I cannot locate this in my copy of the Neijing. What chapter are you referring to? > This point is simple. If one has turbid yin in the head (and it > needs to > descend) then one does *not* employ descending medicinals. > Contrarily, one > employs ascending medicinals which then creates a descending action. > Consequently, these medicinals that ascend are not considered > descending > medicinals because they have this secondary action. Li Gao sums > this up, > > " Although down-bearing [methods] are indicated, one may > simultaneously use > up-bearing methods, Once the clear yang has been up-borne, the [qi] > of a > turbid nature must easily be down-borne. When upbearing, one may not > simultaneously use down-bearing [methods in equal degrees] lest one > assist > in the force of its downward fall. In addition, [such a strategy] > does not > support the strength of the up-bearing medicinals. " > > Therefore jie geng ascends the clear yang and consequently assists and > descending turbid yin. It is *not* that jie geng descends. The same > can be > said for others such as chaihu. > I am familiar with this theory and Li Dong-Yuan, thanks. If it is your contention that chaihu descends because it lifts first (which is what I think you are saying here), then CH has to have an acrid flavor. This understanding of CH falls apart, however, if it is considered a bitter herb, as bitter does not lift or ascend. According to the Neijing Suwen Chapter 22 bitter has the following actions: 1) it dries the spleen, 2) it purges the spleen, 3) it drains the lung, and 4) it tonifies the kidney. If we consider that CH is bitter according to the SNBCJ, how would you describe its functionality? > I still would like to see some historical evidence of people > talking about > chai hu descending otherwise I see no point in trying to make up > new theory > (at my level at least). > At least according to SNBCJ standards, Li Dong-Yuan and others were the ones making up a new theory. I do not want to imply that this is not a popular and intriguing theory, as many many who practice TCM use it as if it were acrid, lifting, and dispersing. It is not my intention to say that those that think that are wrong. I want to know how it was used in the formulas I am studying. In those formulas it is considered to be bitter. I have no idea how and when it became acrid instead of bitter. I would love to know more about who made this theory up and why. If you have anything that can clear that up, I would love to hear about it. Best -Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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