Guest guest Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 Ron, You mean this part? " And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat " . That sentence does not address the issue of eggs or dairy. It just says what God has given people " for meat. " Funny, when you think about it, if these were God's first instructions to man, why would he say that this is your food " for meat " ? It implies that man had been eating meat before, or even knew what meat was. Mark - Ron Koenig RawSeattle Monday, May 10, 2004 8:13 AM [RawSeattle] Vegan diet Regarding the Nazariah article, if you will read Genesis 1 in the Bible, the original diet given to man AND to the animals was a vegan diet. Nobody killed anything to eat. I find it impossible to believe that God would give His creation a diet that would have nutritional deficiencies that would require breaking the vegan diet to maintain ideal health. Ron Koenig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2004 Report Share Posted May 10, 2004 Mark, don't forget this is the translation. Maybe God didn't say 'for meat' at all. Ron, the original diet given to man includes variety of more than 100 plants a day, locally grown, wild, and fresh, right from the source. What do we eat??? 10 – 20 plants, genetically changed, seedless, from California, grown in greenhouses, have been picked unripe, and have been on shelves for several weeks. Do you have time to spend all day in the woods looking your wild foods? I am not. I am working 8 hours a day. Goat milk and eggs are alternative, a substitute for those 100 wild plants. Goat eat the plants and you then drink the milk :-) I like the article, everything what I believe. Thank you Shari. Mark Hovila <hovila wrote:Ron, You mean this part? " And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat " . That sentence does not address the issue of eggs or dairy. It just says what God has given people " for meat. " Funny, when you think about it, if these were God's first instructions to man, why would he say that this is your food " for meat " ? It implies that man had been eating meat before, or even knew what meat was. Mark - Ron Koenig RawSeattle Monday, May 10, 2004 8:13 AM [RawSeattle] Vegan diet Regarding the Nazariah article, if you will read Genesis 1 in the Bible, the original diet given to man AND to the animals was a vegan diet. Nobody killed anything to eat. I find it impossible to believe that God would give His creation a diet that would have nutritional deficiencies that would require breaking the vegan diet to maintain ideal health. Ron Koenig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 I have yet to read the article; but, after the flood and ark, God gave us all things to eat. - Ron Koenig RawSeattle Monday, May 10, 2004 8:13 AM [RawSeattle] Vegan diet Regarding the Nazariah article, if you will read Genesis 1 in the Bible, the original diet given to man AND to the animals was a vegan diet. Nobody killed anything to eat. I find it impossible to believe that God would give His creation a diet that would have nutritional deficiencies that would require breaking the vegan diet to maintain ideal health. Ron Koenig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Just to clarify, after the flood there wasn't much plant life yet on the earth, and flesh food was allowed at the time, but as humans have gotten weaker and more prone to disease over time, so has the rest of the animal world. Not only do we not need to eat flesh with the abundance of plant food available to us, it is not safe anymore because of the many diseases we can get from eating diseased animals. Ron Koenig RawSeattle , " KEVIN THURBER " <aikneada@p...> wrote: > I have yet to read the article; but, after the flood and ark, God gave us all things to eat. > > - > Ron Koenig > RawSeattle > Monday, May 10, 2004 8:13 AM > [RawSeattle] Vegan diet > > > Regarding the Nazariah article, if you will read Genesis 1 in the > Bible, the original diet given to man AND to the animals was a vegan > diet. Nobody killed anything to eat. I find it impossible to > believe that God would give His creation a diet that would have > nutritional deficiencies that would require breaking the vegan diet > to maintain ideal health. > > Ron Koenig > > > > -- ---------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 You have a source of raw, organic goat's milk produced by goats that eat a diet of over 100 plants? I can see your point if the goat was actually fed a diet of that many plants. Modern farming doesn't tend toward letting goats roam as they wish to find that many plants..and even if it did would the goat actually find that many? viola <Viola816 wrote: Mark, don't forget this is the translation. Maybe God didn't say 'for meat' at all. Ron, the original diet given to man includes variety of more than 100 plants a day, locally grown, wild, and fresh, right from the source. What do we eat??? 10 – 20 plants, genetically changed, seedless, from California, grown in greenhouses, have been picked unripe, and have been on shelves for several weeks. Do you have time to spend all day in the woods looking your wild foods? I am not. I am working 8 hours a day. Goat milk and eggs are alternative, a substitute for those 100 wild plants. Goat eat the plants and you then drink the milk :-) I like the article, everything what I believe. Thank you Shari. Mark Hovila wrote:Ron, You mean this part? " And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat " . That sentence does not address the issue of eggs or dairy. It just says what God has given people " for meat. " Funny, when you think about it, if these were God's first instructions to man, why would he say that this is your food " for meat " ? It implies that man had been eating meat before, or even knew what meat was. Mark - Ron Koenig RawSeattle Monday, May 10, 2004 8:13 AM [RawSeattle] Vegan diet Regarding the Nazariah article, if you will read Genesis 1 in the Bible, the original diet given to man AND to the animals was a vegan diet. Nobody killed anything to eat. I find it impossible to believe that God would give His creation a diet that would have nutritional deficiencies that would require breaking the vegan diet to maintain ideal health. Ron Koenig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 >>You have a source of raw, organic goat's milk produced by goats that eat a diet of over 100 plants? Heather, if you remember I am here not so long ago. In Russia people have very small backyards, but many of them manage to have chickens and goats. They pay little money to a person who will get goats from several houses and walk them to the woods, not to the park, but a real wild forest. Such forest was 2 minutes walk from my work. But I didn’t drink that milk anyway. And my son didn't want to drink it. I didn’t drink any milk. I just recently ( a week ago) decided to eat a little yogurt from pcc store. >>would the goat actually find that many? Oh yes, this animal eats everything it can reach. When I was a kid I used to go almost every weekend with my dad to a wild forest to pick something, in May for example it was wild strawberries. I didn’t count how many types of plants were there, but I am sure much more than a hundred. Heather Andersen <starrrie333 wrote: You have a source of raw, organic goat's milk produced by goats that eat a diet of over 100 plants? I can see your point if the goat was actually fed a diet of that many plants. Modern farming doesn't tend toward letting goats roam as they wish to find that many plants..and even if it did would the goat actually find that many? viola wrote: Mark, don't forget this is the translation. Maybe God didn't say 'for meat' at all. Ron, the original diet given to man includes variety of more than 100 plants a day, locally grown, wild, and fresh, right from the source. What do we eat??? 10 – 20 plants, genetically changed, seedless, from California, grown in greenhouses, have been picked unripe, and have been on shelves for several weeks. Do you have time to spend all day in the woods looking your wild foods? I am not. I am working 8 hours a day. Goat milk and eggs are alternative, a substitute for those 100 wild plants. Goat eat the plants and you then drink the milk :-) I like the article, everything what I believe. Thank you Shari. Mark Hovila wrote:Ron, You mean this part? " And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat " . That sentence does not address the issue of eggs or dairy. It just says what God has given people " for meat. " Funny, when you think about it, if these were God's first instructions to man, why would he say that this is your food " for meat " ? It implies that man had been eating meat before, or even knew what meat was. Mark - Ron Koenig RawSeattle Monday, May 10, 2004 8:13 AM [RawSeattle] Vegan diet Regarding the Nazariah article, if you will read Genesis 1 in the Bible, the original diet given to man AND to the animals was a vegan diet. Nobody killed anything to eat. I find it impossible to believe that God would give His creation a diet that would have nutritional deficiencies that would require breaking the vegan diet to maintain ideal health. Ron Koenig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Russia certainly sounds like a raw fooder's heaven by your description! Makes one wonder why you're here rather than there! I would say that if you could access such goat milk in a reasonable manner that it might have properties that were useful to the body. I wouldn't know by my own experience because I was raised here. Perhaps someday in the future I will move to Russia or another country less modernized than the US and enjoy such treasures. Until then the raw vegan diet is the way for me. viola <Viola816 wrote: >>You have a source of raw, organic goat's milk produced by goats that eat a diet of over 100 plants? Heather, if you remember I am here not so long ago. In Russia people have very small backyards, but many of them manage to have chickens and goats. They pay little money to a person who will get goats from several houses and walk them to the woods, not to the park, but a real wild forest. Such forest was 2 minutes walk from my work. But I didn’t drink that milk anyway. And my son didn't want to drink it. I didn’t drink any milk. I just recently ( a week ago) decided to eat a little yogurt from pcc store. >>would the goat actually find that many? Oh yes, this animal eats everything it can reach. When I was a kid I used to go almost every weekend with my dad to a wild forest to pick something, in May for example it was wild strawberries. I didn’t count how many types of plants were there, but I am sure much more than a hundred. Heather Andersen wrote: You have a source of raw, organic goat's milk produced by goats that eat a diet of over 100 plants? I can see your point if the goat was actually fed a diet of that many plants. Modern farming doesn't tend toward letting goats roam as they wish to find that many plants..and even if it did would the goat actually find that many? viola wrote: Mark, don't forget this is the translation. Maybe God didn't say 'for meat' at all. Ron, the original diet given to man includes variety of more than 100 plants a day, locally grown, wild, and fresh, right from the source. What do we eat??? 10 – 20 plants, genetically changed, seedless, from California, grown in greenhouses, have been picked unripe, and have been on shelves for several weeks. Do you have time to spend all day in the woods looking your wild foods? I am not. I am working 8 hours a day. Goat milk and eggs are alternative, a substitute for those 100 wild plants. Goat eat the plants and you then drink the milk :-) I like the article, everything what I believe. Thank you Shari. Mark Hovila wrote:Ron, You mean this part? " And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat " . That sentence does not address the issue of eggs or dairy. It just says what God has given people " for meat. " Funny, when you think about it, if these were God's first instructions to man, why would he say that this is your food " for meat " ? It implies that man had been eating meat before, or even knew what meat was. Mark - Ron Koenig RawSeattle Monday, May 10, 2004 8:13 AM [RawSeattle] Vegan diet Regarding the Nazariah article, if you will read Genesis 1 in the Bible, the original diet given to man AND to the animals was a vegan diet. Nobody killed anything to eat. I find it impossible to believe that God would give His creation a diet that would have nutritional deficiencies that would require breaking the vegan diet to maintain ideal health. Ron Koenig Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 >> Makes one wonder why you're here rather than there! I had two jobs, didn’t have time for my son, and was making very little money (with my master’s degree in Electrical Engineering). In other words I was very poor. I love America with abundance in everything and freedom. Thanks God I have now everything I want. I also feel myself very safety here. But it was difficult for me to get used to the quality of vegetables and fruits. Everything looks good, but tasteless and sour. For Martha, real life example (fight against Multiple Sclerosis): http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:rp0g9VRx134J:www.direct-ms.org/roger.html Heather Andersen <starrrie333 wrote: Russia certainly sounds like a raw fooder's heaven by your description! Makes one wonder why you're here rather than there! I would say that if you could access such goat milk in a reasonable manner that it might have properties that were useful to the body. I wouldn't know by my own experience because I was raised here. Perhaps someday in the future I will move to Russia or another country less modernized than the US and enjoy such treasures. Until then the raw vegan diet is the way for me. viola wrote: >>You have a source of raw, organic goat's milk produced by goats that eat a diet of over 100 plants? Heather, if you remember I am here not so long ago. In Russia people have very small backyards, but many of them manage to have chickens and goats. They pay little money to a person who will get goats from several houses and walk them to the woods, not to the park, but a real wild forest. Such forest was 2 minutes walk from my work. But I didn’t drink that milk anyway. And my son didn't want to drink it. I didn’t drink any milk. I just recently ( a week ago) decided to eat a little yogurt from pcc store. >>would the goat actually find that many? Oh yes, this animal eats everything it can reach. When I was a kid I used to go almost every weekend with my dad to a wild forest to pick something, in May for example it was wild strawberries. I didn’t count how many types of plants were there, but I am sure much more than a hundred. Heather Andersen wrote: You have a source of raw, organic goat's milk produced by goats that eat a diet of over 100 plants? I can see your point if the goat was actually fed a diet of that many plants. Modern farming doesn't tend toward letting goats roam as they wish to find that many plants..and even if it did would the goat actually find that many? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at HotJobs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2004 Report Share Posted May 11, 2004 Thanks, Viola. Roger MacDougall was one of the first people I read about after diagnosis, re: diet revision. I've been off grains since then. Besides possible wheat allergy/sensitivity, there's the micotoxin theory--fungi on stored grains, which would explain why people growing in the Grain Belt get MS and people growing up in the tropics don't. And then there's the Vitamin D theory, Epstein-Barr link, and about 20 other possible causes. Natural Hygiene wraps all the theories up in a neat little package: toxicity, enervation, deficiency. Martha >For Martha, real life example (fight against Multiple Sclerosis): >http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:rp0g9VRx134J:www.direct-ms.org/roger.html > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 31, 2006 Report Share Posted May 31, 2006 Hi Dusty, here are a few links to general vegan recipe sites that might help: http://vegweb.com/ http://www.veganchef.com/ http://www.veganvillage.co.uk/recipes.htm http://www.veganrecipes.com/ and of course, http://www.fatfreevegan.com/ and http://blog.fatfreevegan.com/ for the very healthy stuff. Hope that helps, Laura x On 5/31/06, dusty06282000 <dusty06282000 wrote: > > I'm looking for some help switching to a vegan diet. > Any good place to find recipes that are diet friendly? > > Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 2, 2006 Report Share Posted June 2, 2006 " dusty06282000 " said, " I'm looking for some help switching to a vegan diet. Any good place to find recipes that are diet friendly? " I think THIS place, vegetarian slimming, is as good as any. Since I am a vegan, when I put recipes up in the files, I try to list vegan options for most recipes. Vegan recipes will not only be vegetarian (no animal flesh), but will also not include dairy products, eggs or honey. from Maida Citizens for Pets in Condos, http://www.petsincondos.org South Florida Vegetarian Events, http://www.soflavegevents.net Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Hi Rosieliz, I am neither vegetarian nor vegan so I don't have much to offer there. But I do love vegetarian food and have some experience eating vegetarian for different lengths of time. I have found that I still need the .4 amount of protein, any less and my meals don't hold me as long and I don't feel as good. But I suppose that's a personal thing that may vary for everyone. I look forward to hearing what you discover! Tina rambling.rosey Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:43:54 +0000 Vegan Diet Hi again, I posted last fall asking about getting enough protein on a vegetarian diet. At the time my husband had been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer, and we were considering making the switch as part of his overall plan of action. We still haven't done anything except cut out dairy and red meat, not feeling quite ready to do more. However, we're both less and less interested in animal protein. Yesterday his newest doctor (an internist/oncologist specializing in prostate cancer) strongly recommended a vegan diet and a book called " The China Study " by Colin Campbell. We will read the book and see what we think. Babysteps! Does anyone here actually do the RR program on a vegan diet? If so, how is it working for you? And how do you get sufficient (RR program) protein? Despite the list I copied on vegetarian protein sources, I'm still unsure how to get sufficient protein on the RR program without eating lots of soy or more beans than I think I could choke down. :-) Perhaps I'm not understanding something? Of course, the doctor, knowing nothing about sugar sensitivity, maintains that we actually need less protein than most people think. Have any of you found this to be true after a period of time on step 7? Thanks for any help you can give us in sorting all of this out. It's an interesting process. Rosieliz _______________ Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/keepintouch.mspx?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC\ _VideoChat_distantfamily_012008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 10, 2008 Report Share Posted January 10, 2008 Many of my meals are vegan, not because of a lifestyle choice but because I simply can't tolerate dairy. And I have found that the main sources of protein are beans and soy and also rice protein powder which I have in a shake every morning for breakfast. I also supplement with nuts (so I'll have garbonzo beans and cashews which will cut down on the amounts of beans a little bit.) And about the protein, I feel unsteady very quickly if I have a meal with fewer grams of protein in it than I need. I also can't tell you how a vegan diet sustains me totally because I do eat chicken or fish once every other day. This is what works for me. My main advice is to try it. My lifestyle forced me into eating more and more vegetarian meals and at first I was terrified I was going to wobble, but with time and my journal I realized that with black beans, for instance, there's no difference from eating meat in how I feel. Good luck, and you're right, babysteps. Jess CO rovingrosey <rambling.rosey wrote: Hi again, I posted last fall asking about getting enough protein on a vegetarian diet. At the time my husband had been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer, and we were considering making the switch as part of his overall plan of action. We still haven't done anything except cut out dairy and red meat, not feeling quite ready to do more. However, we're both less and less interested in animal protein. Yesterday his newest doctor (an internist/oncologist specializing in prostate cancer) strongly recommended a vegan diet and a book called " The China Study " by Colin Campbell. We will read the book and see what we think. Babysteps! Does anyone here actually do the RR program on a vegan diet? If so, how is it working for you? And how do you get sufficient (RR program) protein? Despite the list I copied on vegetarian protein sources, I'm still unsure how to get sufficient protein on the RR program without eating lots of soy or more beans than I think I could choke down. :-) Perhaps I'm not understanding something? Of course, the doctor, knowing nothing about sugar sensitivity, maintains that we actually need less protein than most people think. Have any of you found this to be true after a period of time on step 7? Thanks for any help you can give us in sorting all of this out. It's an interesting process. Rosieliz Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 After trying for a while, I decided that I would just stop worrying about counting protein grams and do what worked for me. I was going crazy trying to get 42g (and not counting incidentals) at every meal, which is what the program says is what I need for my body weight. Now I just have my shake in the morning (which does have around 42g), but for my other meals, I just make sure to include browns and protein (and veggies if I can!) With support from my counselor, I decided that it was OK for me to just follow the basic principles the best I could without getting so caught up in the details, which was not working for me. I was eating way too much dairy in order to get the required grams and not feeling good at all. I had gotten stuck in a rut where I was letting myself get way out of control with my sugar intake because " I was only on step XX (2 or 3) " and the book says not to worry about giving up sugar till step 6. So after being stuck there in a bad place for about 9 months, I just followed my gut and went off all the sugar, even though the program says not to do so. And I'm glad I did. I feel much better, more energetic, and more productive. It's been 5 1/2 months now off sugar and the difference is pretty stark. My steps could perhaps be more solid, but I have my 3 meals each day, with protein and browns, incl. breakfast within an hour of waking (95% of the time). So I guess all I'm saying is that I think sometimes people just have to do what works for them, despite outside voices yelling otherwise. I tried to follow faithfully for 9 months, but I was getting nowhere so I took alternate measures. It's always an option. All the voices we hear here online are usually the faithful followers, but I don't think that necessarily means that those who personalize the program a bit don't get any results. Maybe some don't, but I'd bet that many do --- we just don't hear their voices here because they may fear the chorus of the faithful censuring them. Yes, yes I know I know " there's wisdom in the steps. " I don't disagree. But I'm working with what's working for me, and getting good results. I just wanted to share that. I'll also point out that in the books, there are references to " using your fist " as a reference for an appropriate serving size, instead of counting grams. And references to " a fist-sized serving of lentils " for those who are vegetarian. Well a fist-sized serving of lentils contains a lot less protein than a fist-sized serving of meat, with my fist I would guess it's between 10-16 grams. Yet it's still a " program-approved " method for counting protein. Peace, Aaron W On Jan 10, 2008 11:43 AM, rovingrosey <rambling.rosey wrote: > Hi again, > I posted last fall asking about getting enough protein on a vegetarian > diet. At the time my > husband had been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer, and we were > considering > making the switch as part of his overall plan of action. We still haven't > done anything > except cut out dairy and red meat, not feeling quite ready to do more. > However, we're > both less and less interested in animal protein. > > Yesterday his newest doctor (an internist/oncologist specializing in > prostate cancer) > strongly recommended a vegan diet and a book called " The China Study " by > Colin > Campbell. We will read the book and see what we think. Babysteps! > > Does anyone here actually do the RR program on a vegan diet? If so, how is > it working for > you? And how do you get sufficient (RR program) protein? Despite the list > I copied on > vegetarian protein sources, I'm still unsure how to get sufficient protein > on the RR > program without eating lots of soy or more beans than I think I could > choke down. :-) > Perhaps I'm not understanding something? Of course, the doctor, knowing > nothing about > sugar sensitivity, maintains that we actually need less protein than most > people think. > Have any of you found this to be true after a period of time on step 7? > > Thanks for any help you can give us in sorting all of this out. It's an > interesting process. > > Rosieliz > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I want to comment on your note, Aaron.... On Jan 10, 2008, at 7:08 PM, Aaron W wrote: > > I had gotten stuck in a rut where I was letting myself get way out of > control with my sugar intake because " I was only on step XX (2 or > 3) " and > the book says not to worry about giving up sugar till step 6. So > after > being stuck there in a bad place for about 9 months, I just followed > my gut > and went off all the sugar, even though the program says not to do so. The purpose of the program is to get you off sugar. Most people go through the steps in about 6 months. This means that your brain is healed when you do the detox. It sounds like you got stuck and never really connected with what was making you stuck. > And > I'm glad I did. I feel much better, more energetic, and more > productive. > It's been 5 1/2 months now off sugar and the difference is pretty > stark. My > steps could perhaps be more solid, but I have my 3 meals each day, > with > protein and browns, incl. breakfast within an hour of waking (95% of > the > time). it sounds like you have created what is working for you. > > > So I guess all I'm saying is that I think sometimes people just have > to do > what works for them, despite outside voices yelling otherwise. Aaron, I am going to respectfully disagree with you about the *yelling*. Here is the other side. The whole program is based on the scientific reality of reconstructing an addictive brain. There is a reason for the steps and a reason for the order Now, it is true that many people come in and decide they they know better and simply dump the experience of hundreds of thousands of people for whom the program is transformative. it is totally fine with me if you chose to make up a program that works for you. > I tried to > follow faithfully for 9 months, but I was getting nowhere so I took > alternate measures. And, what I would ask you is do you know why that was? Did you ask anyone? Did you do any problem solving with the experienced folks? > It's always an option. All the voices we hear here > online are usually the faithful followers, Actually, the voices you hear are the people who are trying to sort things out in a caring and collaborate way > but I don't think that > necessarily means that those who personalize the program a bit don't > get any > results. Maybe some don't, but I'd bet that many do --- we just > don't hear > their voices here because they may fear the chorus of the faithful > censuring > them. I always find it interesting that people who decide to make up their own rules use this term *censure*. What is that about? Everyone personalizes the program. And if you were connected to it and the people, you would experience that. This is especially true on this list. Is there some reason you feel the need to come in with a chip on your shoulder and bring this tone? > > > Yes, yes I know I know " there's wisdom in the steps. " I don't > disagree. > But I'm working with what's working for me, and getting good > results. I > just wanted to share that. I am actually very happy that you have found what works for you. > > > I'll also point out that in the books, there are references to > " using your > fist " as a reference for an appropriate serving size, instead of > counting > grams. And references to " a fist-sized serving of lentils " for > those who > are vegetarian. Well a fist-sized serving of lentils contains a lot > less > protein than a fist-sized serving of meat, with my fist I would > guess it's > between 10-16 grams. Yet it's still a " program-approved " method for > counting protein. All this says is that you have not been part of the whole dialogue here about working the program as a vegetarian. Actually, we have been having a whole lot of fun sorting out these very issues. > > > Peace, Aaron, when you have come in and blasted the way we do business, the way the senior people serve, the way people dialogue and then say *peace*, it feels dissonant to me. Now, you can read this as *censure* or you can take it as a request that you respect how we do business. It is fine for us to agree to disagree, but this edge is not necessary. Kathleen > > > Aaron W > > > On Jan 10, 2008 11:43 AM, rovingrosey <rambling.rosey > wrote: > >> Hi again, >> I posted last fall asking about getting enough protein on a >> vegetarian >> diet. At the time my >> husband had been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer, and we were >> considering >> making the switch as part of his overall plan of action. We still >> haven't >> done anything >> except cut out dairy and red meat, not feeling quite ready to do >> more. >> However, we're >> both less and less interested in animal protein. >> >> Yesterday his newest doctor (an internist/oncologist specializing in >> prostate cancer) >> strongly recommended a vegan diet and a book called " The China >> Study " by >> Colin >> Campbell. We will read the book and see what we think. Babysteps! >> >> Does anyone here actually do the RR program on a vegan diet? If so, >> how is >> it working for >> you? And how do you get sufficient (RR program) protein? Despite >> the list >> I copied on >> vegetarian protein sources, I'm still unsure how to get sufficient >> protein >> on the RR >> program without eating lots of soy or more beans than I think I could >> choke down. :-) >> Perhaps I'm not understanding something? Of course, the doctor, >> knowing >> nothing about >> sugar sensitivity, maintains that we actually need less protein >> than most >> people think. >> Have any of you found this to be true after a period of time on >> step 7? >> >> Thanks for any help you can give us in sorting all of this out. >> It's an >> interesting process. >> >> Rosieliz >> >> >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Hi RosieLiz, Nice to see you here! I agree with what others are saying. Baby steps and careful attention to the journal will tell both of you how your bodies like a vegan diet. Since you're in info gathering mode on health in general these days, I suggest that you do some internet research on vegan diets & recipes. THere's lots I don't know about it, even though I went vegan for a year many years ago. Also, it may be that you won't need a *totally* vegan diet. It might not have to be all or nothing. I know that different animal proteins affect me in different ways. Don't forget sources of protein such as quinoa (happens to have a complete amino acid profile), okra (yes, the seeds are relatively high in protein), nuts, seeds, etc. I'm finding that I can reduce my overall protein amount after being on step 7 for a year or so. I don't know if Ron will need to get further along in the steps in order for him to know what level is good for him. It'll be an interesting journey, so I'm excited to hear what you find and how we can help problem-solve. I bet it'll generate a lot of good info for us to support other folks who want to do RR as vegetarians & vegans. Cheers, Cinzia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 I'd like to share a little of my story if I may... I read Potatoes Not Prozac and was on step 5/6 the next day (except for the journal, I conveniently decided I didn't need that piece). And I felt great! I really did. I never got the sugar crash that some people do. Removing the sugar felt easy to me at that point. I worked the program as I understood it for a couple of months, I found the online community, I continued to feel great. And then...I don't know how to describe it...I felt my body wobble. It's not that I went on a sugar binge, it's just that I could tell I was not feeling as great anymore. So I started keeping a journal and realized I wasn't really getting as much protein as I had thought, and I wasn't doing as great with the browns as I had thought, and I was snacking... So I went back to breakfast and actually calculated how many protein grams I needed (I had been estimating previously) and I adjusted my breakfast to get the right amount. Wow! What a difference just four grams of protein made. I felt so much more solid, so grounded. It was the difference between feeling okay and feeling great. My next aha! had to do with the browns, the difference between getting " some " and getting " enough. " I used to think the browns were a secondary piece of the program, and now I understand they're just as central as the protein. Getting enough browns takes me from okay to great as well. My point is that I don't think RR is the only solution to taking care of yourself. But I do think that for us SS folks, really following the program is the difference between feeling just okay and feeling great. That's been my experience anyway. Blessings, Sharon in CA Aaron W <elhummus Thursday, January 10, 2008 4:08:23 PM Re: Vegan Diet After trying for a while, I decided that I would just stop worrying about counting protein grams and do what worked for me. I was going crazy trying to get 42g (and not counting incidentals) at every meal, which is what the program says is what I need for my body weight. Now I just have my shake in the morning (which does have around 42g), but for my other meals, I just make sure to include browns and protein (and veggies if I can!) With support from my counselor, I decided that it was OK for me to just follow the basic principles the best I could without getting so caught up in the details, which was not working for me. I was eating way too much dairy in order to get the required grams and not feeling good at all. I had gotten stuck in a rut where I was letting myself get way out of control with my sugar intake because " I was only on step XX (2 or 3) " and the book says not to worry about giving up sugar till step 6. So after being stuck there in a bad place for about 9 months, I just followed my gut and went off all the sugar, even though the program says not to do so. And I'm glad I did. I feel much better, more energetic, and more productive. It's been 5 1/2 months now off sugar and the difference is pretty stark. My steps could perhaps be more solid, but I have my 3 meals each day, with protein and browns, incl. breakfast within an hour of waking (95% of the time). So I guess all I'm saying is that I think sometimes people just have to do what works for them, despite outside voices yelling otherwise. I tried to follow faithfully for 9 months, but I was getting nowhere so I took alternate measures. It's always an option. All the voices we hear here online are usually the faithful followers, but I don't think that necessarily means that those who personalize the program a bit don't get any results. Maybe some don't, but I'd bet that many do --- we just don't hear their voices here because they may fear the chorus of the faithful censuring them. Yes, yes I know I know " there's wisdom in the steps. " I don't disagree. But I'm working with what's working for me, and getting good results. I just wanted to share that. I'll also point out that in the books, there are references to " using your fist " as a reference for an appropriate serving size, instead of counting grams. And references to " a fist-sized serving of lentils " for those who are vegetarian. Well a fist-sized serving of lentils contains a lot less protein than a fist-sized serving of meat, with my fist I would guess it's between 10-16 grams. Yet it's still a " program-approved " method for counting protein. Peace, Aaron WRecent Activity 3New Members Visit Your Group Health Looking for Love? Find relationship advice and answers. Need traffic? Drive customers With search ads on Cat Fanatics on Find people who are crazy about cats.. ______________________________\ ____ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Search. http://tools.search./newsearch/category.php?category=shopping Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Hi Aaron, I don't think I've met you before. From your reply, it's clear that you don't know me as others here do. I guess I should have made it clear that I'm on step 7 since September, having worked carefully through the steps, and staying very connected online, even though I came here already off sugar. I've been around here for over two years. I believe very strongly in the Radiant Recovery program, and in asking for help when facing new situations, as I have just done. My experience has been that the process of learning how to get the required amount of protein for our bodies, and journaling the results, is part of the healing. Asking for help and accepting guidance and correction is also part of the healing. I've never been yelled at, and I don't view it as " censure " . I asked my question seeking help from those who have experience as vegetarians/vegans. I'm sorry, but I don't really understand how your response addresses my request. Perhaps I've misread your reply, but appears to me that you have hijacked my question as a platform from which to complain about the RR program and those who participate. I hope that we can keep the focus on my question, if possible. Kathleen and Sharon have answered you, and perhaps if you need to discuss it further, you can start a new thread so that my question doesn't get lost. I certainly wish you well as you work the steps and I hope to see you on the step seven list someday. Warmly, Rosieliz , " Aaron W " <elhummus wrote: > > After trying for a while, I decided that I would just stop worrying about > counting protein grams and do what worked for me. I was going crazy trying > to get 42g (and not counting incidentals) at every meal, which is what the > program says is what I need for my body weight. Now I just have my shake in > the morning (which does have around 42g), but for my other meals, I just > make sure to include browns and protein (and veggies if I can!) With > support from my counselor, I decided that it was OK for me to just follow > the basic principles the best I could without getting so caught up in the > details, which was not working for me. I was eating way too much dairy in > order to get the required grams and not feeling good at all. > > I had gotten stuck in a rut where I was letting myself get way out of > control with my sugar intake because " I was only on step XX (2 or 3) " and > the book says not to worry about giving up sugar till step 6. So after > being stuck there in a bad place for about 9 months, I just followed my gut > and went off all the sugar, even though the program says not to do so. And > I'm glad I did. I feel much better, more energetic, and more productive. > It's been 5 1/2 months now off sugar and the difference is pretty stark. My > steps could perhaps be more solid, but I have my 3 meals each day, with > protein and browns, incl. breakfast within an hour of waking (95% of the > time). > > So I guess all I'm saying is that I think sometimes people just have to do > what works for them, despite outside voices yelling otherwise. I tried to > follow faithfully for 9 months, but I was getting nowhere so I took > alternate measures. It's always an option. All the voices we hear here > online are usually the faithful followers, but I don't think that > necessarily means that those who personalize the program a bit don't get any > results. Maybe some don't, but I'd bet that many do --- we just don't hear > their voices here because they may fear the chorus of the faithful censuring > them. > > Yes, yes I know I know " there's wisdom in the steps. " I don't disagree. > But I'm working with what's working for me, and getting good results. I > just wanted to share that. > > I'll also point out that in the books, there are references to " using your > fist " as a reference for an appropriate serving size, instead of counting > grams. And references to " a fist-sized serving of lentils " for those who > are vegetarian. Well a fist-sized serving of lentils contains a lot less > protein than a fist-sized serving of meat, with my fist I would guess it's > between 10-16 grams. Yet it's still a " program-approved " method for > counting protein. > > Peace, > > Aaron W > > > On Jan 10, 2008 11:43 AM, rovingrosey <rambling.rosey wrote: > > > Hi again, > > I posted last fall asking about getting enough protein on a vegetarian > > diet. At the time my > > husband had been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer, and we were > > considering > > making the switch as part of his overall plan of action. We still haven't > > done anything > > except cut out dairy and red meat, not feeling quite ready to do more. > > However, we're > > both less and less interested in animal protein. > > > > Yesterday his newest doctor (an internist/oncologist specializing in > > prostate cancer) > > strongly recommended a vegan diet and a book called " The China Study " by > > Colin > > Campbell. We will read the book and see what we think. Babysteps! > > > > Does anyone here actually do the RR program on a vegan diet? If so, how is > > it working for > > you? And how do you get sufficient (RR program) protein? Despite the list > > I copied on > > vegetarian protein sources, I'm still unsure how to get sufficient protein > > on the RR > > program without eating lots of soy or more beans than I think I could > > choke down. :-) > > Perhaps I'm not understanding something? Of course, the doctor, knowing > > nothing about > > sugar sensitivity, maintains that we actually need less protein than most > > people think. > > Have any of you found this to be true after a period of time on step 7? > > > > Thanks for any help you can give us in sorting all of this out. It's an > > interesting process. > > > > Rosieliz > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Thanks for your thoughts, Tina. This is helpful. I've always needed to keep my protein at .4 too, so I don't want to mess myself up at this point! Rosieliz , Tina Castronovo <tcastronovo18 wrote: > > Hi Rosieliz, > > I am neither vegetarian nor vegan so I don't have much to offer there. But I do love vegetarian food and have some experience eating vegetarian for different lengths of time. I have found that I still need the .4 amount of protein, any less and my meals don't hold me as long and I don't feel as good. But I suppose that's a personal thing that may vary for everyone. I look forward to hearing what you discover! > > Tina > > > rambling.rosey > Thu, 10 Jan 2008 18:43:54 +0000 > Vegan Diet > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi again, > > I posted last fall asking about getting enough protein on a vegetarian diet. At the time my > > husband had been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer, and we were considering > > making the switch as part of his overall plan of action. We still haven't done anything > > except cut out dairy and red meat, not feeling quite ready to do more. However, we're > > both less and less interested in animal protein. > > > > Yesterday his newest doctor (an internist/oncologist specializing in prostate cancer) > > strongly recommended a vegan diet and a book called " The China Study " by Colin > > Campbell. We will read the book and see what we think. Babysteps! > > > > Does anyone here actually do the RR program on a vegan diet? If so, how is it working for > > you? And how do you get sufficient (RR program) protein? Despite the list I copied on > > vegetarian protein sources, I'm still unsure how to get sufficient protein on the RR > > program without eating lots of soy or more beans than I think I could choke down. :-) > > Perhaps I'm not understanding something? Of course, the doctor, knowing nothing about > > sugar sensitivity, maintains that we actually need less protein than most people think. > > Have any of you found this to be true after a period of time on step 7? > > > > Thanks for any help you can give us in sorting all of this out. It's an interesting process. > > > > Rosieliz > > > > > > > _______________ > Make distant family not so distant with Windows Vista® + Windows Live™. > http://www.microsoft.com/windows/digitallife/keepintouch.mspx? ocid=TXT_TAGLM_CPC_VideoChat_distantfamily_012008 > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 This is very helpful, Jess. Thank you for the specific food ideas. We do love both cashews and black beans. It will be fun for us to try things out and journal the results. Rosieliz , Jessica Vaughan <londonoctober wrote: > > Many of my meals are vegan, not because of a lifestyle choice but because I simply can't tolerate dairy. And I have found that the main sources of protein are beans and soy and also rice protein powder which I have in a shake every morning for breakfast. I also supplement with nuts (so I'll have garbonzo beans and cashews which will cut down on the amounts of beans a little bit.) And about the protein, I feel unsteady very quickly if I have a meal with fewer grams of protein in it than I need. I also can't tell you how a vegan diet sustains me totally because I do eat chicken or fish once every other day. This is what works for me. My main advice is to try it. My lifestyle forced me into eating more and more vegetarian meals and at first I was terrified I was going to wobble, but with time and my journal I realized that with black beans, for instance, there's no difference from eating meat in how I feel. Good luck, and you're right, babysteps. > > Jess CO > > rovingrosey <rambling.rosey wrote: > Hi again, > I posted last fall asking about getting enough protein on a vegetarian diet. At the time my > husband had been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer, and we were considering > making the switch as part of his overall plan of action. We still haven't done anything > except cut out dairy and red meat, not feeling quite ready to do more. However, we're > both less and less interested in animal protein. > > Yesterday his newest doctor (an internist/oncologist specializing in prostate cancer) > strongly recommended a vegan diet and a book called " The China Study " by Colin > Campbell. We will read the book and see what we think. Babysteps! > > Does anyone here actually do the RR program on a vegan diet? If so, how is it working for > you? And how do you get sufficient (RR program) protein? Despite the list I copied on > vegetarian protein sources, I'm still unsure how to get sufficient protein on the RR > program without eating lots of soy or more beans than I think I could choke down. :-) > Perhaps I'm not understanding something? Of course, the doctor, knowing nothing about > sugar sensitivity, maintains that we actually need less protein than most people think. > Have any of you found this to be true after a period of time on step 7? > > Thanks for any help you can give us in sorting all of this out. It's an interesting process. > > Rosieliz > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2008 Report Share Posted January 11, 2008 Thanks, Cinzia. These are helpful suggestions. And yes, a totally vegan diet may not be necessary. We always take doctor's opinions with more than a grain of salt! I will do some research and see what I uncover. I suspect I'll be learning about a lot of " new " foods! Warmly, Rosieliz , " cinziatre " <cmarchesani wrote: > > Hi RosieLiz, > > Nice to see you here! > > I agree with what others are saying. Baby steps and careful > attention to the journal will tell both of you how your bodies like > a vegan diet. > > Since you're in info gathering mode on health in general these days, > I suggest that you do some internet research on vegan diets & > recipes. THere's lots I don't know about it, even though I went > vegan for a year many years ago. > > Also, it may be that you won't need a *totally* vegan diet. It > might not have to be all or nothing. I know that different animal > proteins affect me in different ways. > > Don't forget sources of protein such as quinoa (happens to have a > complete amino acid profile), okra (yes, the seeds are relatively > high in protein), nuts, seeds, etc. > > I'm finding that I can reduce my overall protein amount after being > on step 7 for a year or so. I don't know if Ron will need to get > further along in the steps in order for him to know what level is > good for him. > > It'll be an interesting journey, so I'm excited to hear what you > find and how we can help problem-solve. I bet it'll generate a lot > of good info for us to support other folks who want to do RR as > vegetarians & vegans. Cheers, Cinzia > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Rosieliz, I wanted to respond to this. I think the key is what is best for healing. If someone is sugar sensitive, we pretty much know what works really well. If someone is not, then there are a lot of options. Now if someone is ss and has cancer, my sense is the key is the quality and amount of the food. And the impact on the person. So let's say you guys do vegan and are grumpy, tired and cranky. The negative impact of the those chemicals far outweighs the effect of the diet. My vote is to get the protien and be really attentive to the source. So this means, organic eggs and cheese. And in fact less soy unless it is cultured like tofu and miso. You both have incredible skill. And I think it will be really fun for you to explore this. The BEST thing is to add wonderful high quality vegetables. I just got a book by Mollie Katzen on vegetables. And Heather gave me a whole cookbook on vegetable cooking. Man, am I excited. Glad you are here. kathleen On Jan 10, 2008, at 1:43 PM, rovingrosey wrote: > Hi again, > I posted last fall asking about getting enough protein on a > vegetarian diet. At the time my > husband had been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer, and we > were considering > making the switch as part of his overall plan of action. We still > haven't done anything > except cut out dairy and red meat, not feeling quite ready to do > more. However, we're > both less and less interested in animal protein. > > Yesterday his newest doctor (an internist/oncologist specializing in > prostate cancer) > strongly recommended a vegan diet and a book called " The China > Study " by Colin > Campbell. We will read the book and see what we think. Babysteps! > > Does anyone here actually do the RR program on a vegan diet? If so, > how is it working for > you? And how do you get sufficient (RR program) protein? Despite > the list I copied on > vegetarian protein sources, I'm still unsure how to get sufficient > protein on the RR > program without eating lots of soy or more beans than I think I > could choke down. :-) > Perhaps I'm not understanding something? Of course, the doctor, > knowing nothing about > sugar sensitivity, maintains that we actually need less protein than > most people think. > Have any of you found this to be true after a period of time on step > 7? > > Thanks for any help you can give us in sorting all of this out. It's > an interesting process. > > Rosieliz > > > > > > http://www.radiantrecovery.com > > http://www.radiantrecoverystore.com/ > > http://www.radiantrecovery.com/classes.htm > > http://www.radiantrecovery.com/cgi-bin/bbs-new/webbbs_config.pl > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Sharon, thanks for this - I did find some of your story familiar, lol often happens doesnt it? I think thats one reason I go - " step one " etc ... because learning the hard way is, well, hard.... course it may bring a good lesson too. what I really resonated with your post - was how the little things DO make such a difference! about two months ago, I couldnt get my usual cottage cheese. So I went for a really classy brand for a week or two. It was lovely and creamy and delicious. Because higher fat than usual ? the tub came out at 20g, I think, instead of 28. I think it did make a difference, I felt a little adrift with it. So I'm still buying that one for lunch as its a rich treat, but adding a little extra something. Looking in my journal made me aware and able to hear. I do think its encouraging to see we all have our upheavals and they turn into fantastic learning - so thanks for posting your story. mosaic , Sharon Wylie <swylie2002 wrote: > > I'd like to share a little of my story if I may... > > I read Potatoes Not Prozac and was on step 5/6 the next day (except for the journal, I conveniently decided I didn't need that piece). And I felt great! I really did. I never got the sugar crash that some people do. Removing the sugar felt easy to me at that point. > > I worked the program as I understood it for a couple of months, I found the online community, I continued to feel great. And then...I don't know how to describe it...I felt my body wobble. It's not that I went on a sugar binge, it's just that I could tell I was not feeling as great anymore. So I started keeping a journal and realized I wasn't really getting as much protein as I had thought, and I wasn't doing as great with the browns as I had thought, and I was snacking... > > So I went back to breakfast and actually calculated how many protein grams I needed (I had been estimating previously) and I adjusted my breakfast to get the right amount. Wow! What a difference just four grams of protein made. I felt so much more solid, so grounded. It was the difference between feeling okay and feeling great. > > My next aha! had to do with the browns, the difference between getting " some " and getting " enough. " I used to think the browns were a secondary piece of the program, and now I understand they're just as central as the protein. Getting enough browns takes me from okay to great as well. > > My point is that I don't think RR is the only solution to taking care of yourself. But I do think that for us SS folks, really following the program is the difference between feeling just okay and feeling great. That's been my experience anyway. > > Blessings, > Sharon in CA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2008 Report Share Posted January 12, 2008 Hi Rosieliz, and Kathleen, Thanks for your response. I apologize for coming across so badly. But I think I do have something to say, and I do want to say it. I wasn't trying to hijack your post or your thread, but I guess I must have been triggered by something I read in your post to want to respond in the way I did. I'm working on collecting and structuring my thoughts and looking forward to trying to post them in a more clear and concise and hopefully less abrasive manner. Aaron On Jan 10, 2008 9:12 PM, rovingrosey <rambling.rosey wrote: > Hi Aaron, > I don't think I've met you before. From your reply, it's clear that you > don't know me as > others here do. I guess I should have made it clear that I'm on step 7 > since September, > having worked carefully through the steps, and staying very connected > online, even > though I came here already off sugar. I've been around here for over two > years. I believe > very strongly in the Radiant Recovery program, and in asking for help when > facing new > situations, as I have just done. My experience has been that the process > of learning how to > get the required amount of protein for our bodies, and journaling the > results, is part of the > healing. Asking for help and accepting guidance and correction is also > part of the healing. > I've never been yelled at, and I don't view it as " censure " . > > I asked my question seeking help from those who have experience as > vegetarians/vegans. > I'm sorry, but I don't really understand how your response addresses my > request. Perhaps > I've misread your reply, but appears to me that you have hijacked my > question as a > platform from which to complain about the RR program and those who > participate. > > I hope that we can keep the focus on my question, if possible. Kathleen > and Sharon have > answered you, and perhaps if you need to discuss it further, you can start > a new thread so > that my question doesn't get lost. > > I certainly wish you well as you work the steps and I hope to see you on > the step seven list > someday. > > Warmly, > Rosieliz > > > --- In <%40>, > " Aaron W " <elhummus wrote: > > > > After trying for a while, I decided that I would just stop worrying > about > > counting protein grams and do what worked for me. I was going crazy > trying > > to get 42g (and not counting incidentals) at every meal, which is what > the > > program says is what I need for my body weight. Now I just have my shake > in > > the morning (which does have around 42g), but for my other meals, I just > > make sure to include browns and protein (and veggies if I can!) With > > support from my counselor, I decided that it was OK for me to just > follow > > the basic principles the best I could without getting so caught up in > the > > details, which was not working for me. I was eating way too much dairy > in > > order to get the required grams and not feeling good at all. > > > > I had gotten stuck in a rut where I was letting myself get way out of > > control with my sugar intake because " I was only on step XX (2 or 3) " > and > > the book says not to worry about giving up sugar till step 6. So after > > being stuck there in a bad place for about 9 months, I just followed my > gut > > and went off all the sugar, even though the program says not to do so. > And > > I'm glad I did. I feel much better, more energetic, and more productive. > > It's been 5 1/2 months now off sugar and the difference is pretty stark. > My > > steps could perhaps be more solid, but I have my 3 meals each day, with > > protein and browns, incl. breakfast within an hour of waking (95% of the > > time). > > > > So I guess all I'm saying is that I think sometimes people just have to > do > > what works for them, despite outside voices yelling otherwise. I tried > to > > follow faithfully for 9 months, but I was getting nowhere so I took > > alternate measures. It's always an option. All the voices we hear here > > online are usually the faithful followers, but I don't think that > > necessarily means that those who personalize the program a bit don't get > any > > results. Maybe some don't, but I'd bet that many do --- we just don't > hear > > their voices here because they may fear the chorus of the faithful > censuring > > them. > > > > Yes, yes I know I know " there's wisdom in the steps. " I don't disagree. > > But I'm working with what's working for me, and getting good results. I > > just wanted to share that. > > > > I'll also point out that in the books, there are references to " using > your > > fist " as a reference for an appropriate serving size, instead of > counting > > grams. And references to " a fist-sized serving of lentils " for those who > > are vegetarian. Well a fist-sized serving of lentils contains a lot less > > protein than a fist-sized serving of meat, with my fist I would guess > it's > > between 10-16 grams. Yet it's still a " program-approved " method for > > counting protein. > > > > Peace, > > > > Aaron W > > > > > > On Jan 10, 2008 11:43 AM, rovingrosey <rambling.rosey wrote: > > > > > Hi again, > > > I posted last fall asking about getting enough protein on a vegetarian > > > diet. At the time my > > > husband had been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer, and we were > > > considering > > > making the switch as part of his overall plan of action. We still > haven't > > > done anything > > > except cut out dairy and red meat, not feeling quite ready to do more. > > > However, we're > > > both less and less interested in animal protein. > > > > > > Yesterday his newest doctor (an internist/oncologist specializing in > > > prostate cancer) > > > strongly recommended a vegan diet and a book called " The China Study " > by > > > Colin > > > Campbell. We will read the book and see what we think. Babysteps! > > > > > > Does anyone here actually do the RR program on a vegan diet? If so, > how is > > > it working for > > > you? And how do you get sufficient (RR program) protein? Despite the > list > > > I copied on > > > vegetarian protein sources, I'm still unsure how to get sufficient > protein > > > on the RR > > > program without eating lots of soy or more beans than I think I could > > > choke down. :-) > > > Perhaps I'm not understanding something? Of course, the doctor, > knowing > > > nothing about > > > sugar sensitivity, maintains that we actually need less protein than > most > > > people think. > > > Have any of you found this to be true after a period of time on step > 7? > > > > > > Thanks for any help you can give us in sorting all of this out. It's > an > > > interesting process. > > > > > > Rosieliz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 13, 2008 Report Share Posted January 13, 2008 Hi Aaron, I appreciate your response. And I have to admit, I was feeling a bit tired and cranky when I replied to you (poor sleep and less than ideal food while traveling). As soon as I hit the " send " button, I thought " Oops, Rosieliz, that wasn't very nice. " So, let's just start over, and agree to disagree on some things. I'm sure we all have the same goal. The main thing is doing the program and benefitting from the healing. And, of course, helping each other along the way. Warmly, Rosieliz , " Aaron W " <dubaaron wrote: > > Hi Rosieliz, and Kathleen, > > Thanks for your response. > > I apologize for coming across so badly. But I think I do have something to > say, and I do want to say it. I wasn't trying to hijack your post or your > thread, but I guess I must have been triggered by something I read in your > post to want to respond in the way I did. I'm working on collecting and > structuring my thoughts and looking forward to trying to post them in a more > clear and concise and hopefully less abrasive manner. > > Aaron > > > On Jan 10, 2008 9:12 PM, rovingrosey <rambling.rosey wrote: > > > Hi Aaron, > > I don't think I've met you before. From your reply, it's clear that you > > don't know me as > > others here do. I guess I should have made it clear that I'm on step 7 > > since September, > > having worked carefully through the steps, and staying very connected > > online, even > > though I came here already off sugar. I've been around here for over two > > years. I believe > > very strongly in the Radiant Recovery program, and in asking for help when > > facing new > > situations, as I have just done. My experience has been that the process > > of learning how to > > get the required amount of protein for our bodies, and journaling the > > results, is part of the > > healing. Asking for help and accepting guidance and correction is also > > part of the healing. > > I've never been yelled at, and I don't view it as " censure " . > > > > I asked my question seeking help from those who have experience as > > vegetarians/vegans. > > I'm sorry, but I don't really understand how your response addresses my > > request. Perhaps > > I've misread your reply, but appears to me that you have hijacked my > > question as a > > platform from which to complain about the RR program and those who > > participate. > > > > I hope that we can keep the focus on my question, if possible. Kathleen > > and Sharon have > > answered you, and perhaps if you need to discuss it further, you can start > > a new thread so > > that my question doesn't get lost. > > > > I certainly wish you well as you work the steps and I hope to see you on > > the step seven list > > someday. > > > > Warmly, > > Rosieliz > > > > > > <% 40>, > > " Aaron W " <elhummus@> wrote: > > > > > > After trying for a while, I decided that I would just stop worrying > > about > > > counting protein grams and do what worked for me. I was going crazy > > trying > > > to get 42g (and not counting incidentals) at every meal, which is what > > the > > > program says is what I need for my body weight. Now I just have my shake > > in > > > the morning (which does have around 42g), but for my other meals, I just > > > make sure to include browns and protein (and veggies if I can!) With > > > support from my counselor, I decided that it was OK for me to just > > follow > > > the basic principles the best I could without getting so caught up in > > the > > > details, which was not working for me. I was eating way too much dairy > > in > > > order to get the required grams and not feeling good at all. > > > > > > I had gotten stuck in a rut where I was letting myself get way out of > > > control with my sugar intake because " I was only on step XX (2 or 3) " > > and > > > the book says not to worry about giving up sugar till step 6. So after > > > being stuck there in a bad place for about 9 months, I just followed my > > gut > > > and went off all the sugar, even though the program says not to do so. > > And > > > I'm glad I did. I feel much better, more energetic, and more productive. > > > It's been 5 1/2 months now off sugar and the difference is pretty stark. > > My > > > steps could perhaps be more solid, but I have my 3 meals each day, with > > > protein and browns, incl. breakfast within an hour of waking (95% of the > > > time). > > > > > > So I guess all I'm saying is that I think sometimes people just have to > > do > > > what works for them, despite outside voices yelling otherwise. I tried > > to > > > follow faithfully for 9 months, but I was getting nowhere so I took > > > alternate measures. It's always an option. All the voices we hear here > > > online are usually the faithful followers, but I don't think that > > > necessarily means that those who personalize the program a bit don't get > > any > > > results. Maybe some don't, but I'd bet that many do --- we just don't > > hear > > > their voices here because they may fear the chorus of the faithful > > censuring > > > them. > > > > > > Yes, yes I know I know " there's wisdom in the steps. " I don't disagree. > > > But I'm working with what's working for me, and getting good results. I > > > just wanted to share that. > > > > > > I'll also point out that in the books, there are references to " using > > your > > > fist " as a reference for an appropriate serving size, instead of > > counting > > > grams. And references to " a fist-sized serving of lentils " for those who > > > are vegetarian. Well a fist-sized serving of lentils contains a lot less > > > protein than a fist-sized serving of meat, with my fist I would guess > > it's > > > between 10-16 grams. Yet it's still a " program-approved " method for > > > counting protein. > > > > > > Peace, > > > > > > Aaron W > > > > > > > > > On Jan 10, 2008 11:43 AM, rovingrosey <rambling.rosey@> wrote: > > > > > > > Hi again, > > > > I posted last fall asking about getting enough protein on a vegetarian > > > > diet. At the time my > > > > husband had been recently diagnosed with prostate cancer, and we were > > > > considering > > > > making the switch as part of his overall plan of action. We still > > haven't > > > > done anything > > > > except cut out dairy and red meat, not feeling quite ready to do more. > > > > However, we're > > > > both less and less interested in animal protein. > > > > > > > > Yesterday his newest doctor (an internist/oncologist specializing in > > > > prostate cancer) > > > > strongly recommended a vegan diet and a book called " The China Study " > > by > > > > Colin > > > > Campbell. We will read the book and see what we think. Babysteps! > > > > > > > > Does anyone here actually do the RR program on a vegan diet? If so, > > how is > > > > it working for > > > > you? And how do you get sufficient (RR program) protein? Despite the > > list > > > > I copied on > > > > vegetarian protein sources, I'm still unsure how to get sufficient > > protein > > > > on the RR > > > > program without eating lots of soy or more beans than I think I could > > > > choke down. :-) > > > > Perhaps I'm not understanding something? Of course, the doctor, > > knowing > > > > nothing about > > > > sugar sensitivity, maintains that we actually need less protein than > > most > > > > people think. > > > > Have any of you found this to be true after a period of time on step > > 7? > > > > > > > > Thanks for any help you can give us in sorting all of this out. It's > > an > > > > interesting process. > > > > > > > > Rosieliz > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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