re: fairness

[Guest guest]

drpatsan " t wrote:

> Steady on, Rain! LOL I think John was referring to the _terms_

 

I try not to criticize other people's terms, either.

I've been on the receiving endb of it enough from militant vegans who

tell me I'm " not a real vegetarian and shouldn't call yourself one "

that I don't want to do that to other folks.

 

> However, we have no obligation on a vegetarian group to support

people in eating animal flesh -

 

To support i? No. To respect it even if we disagree with it? Yes.

 

> indeed to be consistent with our beliefs we should discourage it and

encourage a vegetarian lifestyle.

 

Really? I'm not convinced of that. Eating styles are deeply personal

matter, and not always a simple decision. They're not even as simple

medically, for every

single individual everywhere,as some of us would wish.

 

Anyway, I figure fair's fair. I've always hated it when

meat-and-potatoes folks disapprove audibly of my own choices. . .so why

would I want to do that to them?

 

Somebody, I forget who, once did a highly interesting study in the '80s

and found that the number-two factor (right behind " I just like meat

too much " ) that stops many people from adopting a vegetarian diet is their

experiences with proselytizing vegetarians.

 

Do I prefer a vegetarian diet? Absolutely, and I have good reasons for

that, which I'll share with people. . . nicely . . . _if they ask_.

But do I see it as my job to

convert other people to vegetarianism? No. YMMV.

 

> Nevertheless non-vegetarians are welcome here provided > they do not

talk about eating non-veg items and respect > our veg principles and

lifestyle - that's a given.

 

Then we have to respect theirs, too, no? _Respect,_ not agree with.

Which doesn't mean letting them

proselytize here, or post meat recipes--but conversely,

to me it does mean not putting down ( " makes no sense " ) their choices of

food or terminology, no matter how much we disagree with them.

 

Rain

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[Guest guest]

 

 

 

 

> However, we have no obligation on a vegetarian group to support

people in eating animal flesh -

 

To support i? No. To respect it even if we disagree with it? Yes.

 

I think that respect has its limits on this type of list.   It is a vegetarian

list and with that comes the real fact that the majority of its members will be

veggie because they are opposed to animal cruelty.

 

Somebody, I forget who, once did a highly interesting study in the '80s

and found that the number-two factor (right behind " I just like meat

too much " ) that stops many people from adopting a vegetarian diet is their

experiences with proselytizing vegetarians.

 

It is a lot harder for a vegeatarian to be around meat eaters then the

reverse.    I know there are militant vegans but over all the hard times I get

are from being in a room of meat eaters and I dont have to do or say anything

other then make a plate void of meat and I get attacked.

And the comments from vegetarains are certianly no more demeaning or hateful

then what comes from the meat eaters.

 

 

Then we have to respect theirs, too, no?

Why?  If I joined a list that was all about barbeq steaks then it would be wrong

for me to harras them for eating meat.

 

 

_

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

>

>

> I think that respect has its limits on this type of list. It is a vegetarian

list and with that comes the real fact that the majority of its members will be

veggie because they are opposed to animal cruelty.

 

But by no means all. . .and that doesn't address

my point, which is this: I can disagree very, very strongly with

someone, and

that's fine and good, but don't I need to do it without belittling

them? Partly because putdowns are rude. . but especially because

they're also counterproductive if I ever want them to see my side of

things. Honey/vinegar, remember?

 

And anyway,there's _consistency:_ if we're striving to be people of

kindness to all living things, then don't we need to extend that to

people as well as other animals?

 

>

> It is a lot harder for a vegeatarian to be around meat eaters then the

reverse.

 

I just don't feel that way.

 

 

> I know there are militant vegans but over all the hard times I get are from

being in a room of meat eaters and I dont have to do or say anything other then

make a plate void of meat and I get attacked.

 

And that justifies doing it to them? I profoundly disagree.

 

> And the comments from vegetarains are certianly no more demeaning or hateful

then what comes from the meat eaters.

 

Shouldn't we want ours not to be demeaning at all? Ours is the only

side of the street we can keep clean, and

I often wish we did that a little better.

 

> Then we have to respect theirs, too, no?

> Why?

 

Again, I said " respect " , meaning " treat respectfully, with courtesy and

kindness " , not " agree with " or " allow to proselytize here " . As to

why? Wellllll, if for no other reason, because it _works_ better.

 

> If I joined a list that was all about barbeq steaks then it would be wrong

for me to harras them for eating meat.

I didn't actually hear anyone harassing us. Perhaps I missed something,

who knows; it's planting season and

I'm tired. /

 

Rain

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/

[Guest guest]

<<I think that respect has its limits on this type of list. It is a

vegetarian list and with that comes the real fact that the majority of its

members will be veggie because they are opposed to animal cruelty.>>

 

I became a vegetarian strictly for health reasons, which I think is the case

with more and more people every day... If saturated fat and cholesterol

weren't bad for me, I'd eat steak every night simply because it tastes good.

And I think respect has NO limits on any type of list. It's far easier to

convert someone when you've shown them respect as opposed to abusing them...

 

 

- DJ

 

-----------------------

Always remember: Today's mighty oak is simply

yesterday's nut that held its ground...

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

> And I think respect has NO limits on any type

> of list. It's far easier to

> convert someone when you've shown them respect as >opposed to abusing them...

 

 

Exactly. Thanks, Dena, you said it well.

 

Rain

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[Guest guest]

Whoops. This is getting a bit out of hand. A recent post on this topic contained

the following, but although written by one person it rather speaks to a problem

that many people here are overlooking, so I'll built my comments around this

one.

 

> If saturated fat and cholesterol

weren't bad for me, I'd eat steak every night simply because it tastes good.

 

But this is a vegetarian group and we do not really want anyone telling us that

animal flesh 'tastes good' - for any reason - do we? I take the point that

animal flesh is 'bad' for us because of 'saturated fat and cholesterol' (and

surely we all know that), but many of us have other or additional reasons for

avoiding consuming animal flesh which speak more to an ethical point of view

that a medical or aesthetic one. In any case, 'tastes good' is perilously close

to pro-meat propaganda - that's the reason omnivores often give for NOT becoming

vegetarian (and such a comment could be a sad reminder to newbies of what they

are missing - another problem).

 

I understand most here who are discussing this point are vegetarian and I

applaud that. But puhleez, think before any of you, veggie or not, type in

future, okay? I don't think the person who sent this meant to write what she

did! (Seriously, I don't.) But I do know it cannot happen again.

 

EVERYONE, please take a deep breath, read the Homepage of this group at

 

and read the Guidelines you were sent on joining and that are also sent

automatically to the group at the beginning of each month. The rules are there

for a reason. Okay?

 

Thanks, all!

 

Pat (Co-owner with Piers)

 

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I noticed, after I'd written most of my " Khessedanism (dietary practice

of kindness) " message, that Pat has requested that we stop discussing

non-veg food choices on the list. Some other vegans/vegetarians on the

list replied by counseling tolerance for us non-vegans and

non-vegetarians, and I offer thanks to those people.

 

I see that the Homepage at

,

<>

although it says the group is for " all with a serious interest in

vegetarian topics, " also contains " a special warning against postings

that could be offensive to vegetarians or vegans. "

 

Accordingly, I've removed from my Khessedanism post a few paragraphs

that earnestly discussed important vegetarian topics but that might give

offense to people who've made up their minds and wish to be spared the

pain of a second, rational look at their choices. (If I've

misunderstood, if " important vegetarian topics " that could call up " the

pain of a second, rational look " at one's choices *are* appropriate

here, let me know and I'll send those paragraphs.)

 

Does anyone know of another Internet list where full discussion of the

ethics and practicality of all types of khessedan choices--vegan,

vegetarian, pescetarian, and other--would definitely be appropriate? It

would be good to be able to seek and offer help occasionally regarding

the ethics of dietary choices, without taking advantage and without risk

of giving offense.

 

Lynn

[Guest guest]

> Pat has requested that we stop discussing

non-veg food choices on the list . . .

 

Not a new request - it comes with the membership. And thank you for omitting the

references to non-vegetarian food choices from your 'khessedian' message Much

appreciated!

 

In partial response to your request re other groups which would appreciate

discussion of those things which you omitted from your message, I must point out

that there are lots of groups on the web that enjoy talking about eating animal

flesh. I'm sure you'll have no trouble. Best of luck, then.

 

Pat

[Guest guest]

I suppose I must have been unclear. The sections that I removed because

they might have made some vegans/vegetarians uncomfortable were not

primarily about eating animal flesh! They were mostly about eating

wheat and eating dairy products. (Let me know, Pat, if you feel it's

appropriate for me to send the non-animal-flesh passages.)

 

To refine my question: Do you (Pat or others) know of any group(s) on

the web that would be receptive to earnest and reality-based discussion

of the ethics of eating animal flesh *and* eating other animal foods

*and* and eating vegan foods? I.e., any group(s) that would be

receptive to open discussions of khessedanism?

 

Lynn

 

 

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Re: fairness

Sun, 24 May 2009 23:10:07 -0000

drpatsant <drpatsant

 

 

> Pat has requested that we stop discussing

 

non-veg food choices on the list . . .

 

Not a new request - it comes with the membership. And thank you for

omitting the references to non-vegetarian food choices from your

'khessedian' message Much appreciated!

 

In partial response to your request re other groups which would

appreciate discussion of those things which you omitted from your

message, I must point out that there are lots of groups on the web that

enjoy talking about eating animal flesh. I'm sure you'll have no

trouble. Best of luck, then.

 

Pat

[Guest guest]

drpatsant wrote:

> Whoops. This is getting a bit out of hand. A recent post on this topic

contained the following, but although written by one person it rather speaks to

a problem that many people here are overlooking, so I'll built my comments

around this one.

 

You're forgetting something important (and please hear me all the way

out before you decide what you think): Many if not most committed

vegetarians who didn't grow up that way. . .(and I believe I recall that

converts are the majority). . . MISS the taste of some form of meat item

at least occasionally. Else why would veggiedogs and soybacon sell so

well and appeal to so many of us? I'm willing to bet that at least 80%

of the adult-convert vegetarians here would tell you meat DID taste good

to them. . . .because it did, and occasionally it's human to miss that.

 

So should we pretend we never really liked it? Never want to find

something veggie that tastes that way without the health or ethical

disadvantages? That's going to rule out a hell of a lot of good recipes.

 

And, more important, _/it falsifies the picture of who we vegetarians

are./_

If the only " real " , " acceptable " vegetarian is someone who never liked

meat in the first place, and never has a moment of missing it, then I'm

screwed, and I KNOW I'm not alone here.

 

Does it mean we're propagandizing for meat? For pity's sake, no.

 

Look, I'm an alcoholic. I haven't has a drink in over two decades, but

when I go to AA meetings, I do have to talk occasionally about what I

drank, and how it felt to enjoy that before it started to bother me. No

one there thinks I'm saying we should all go out and get loaded; no one

there is so afraid of the word ALCOHOL that they get ill or go out and

drink over hearing it. And if they're that sensitive, they will HAVE to

get over it in order to live in a world where most people drink.

 

In fact. . .and I think this is very relevant. . .the new folks just

coming in, newly sober and scared of slipping, are usually delighted and

relieved to know that those of us with a lot of years sober still

think about the taste of a drink every now and then, remember the good

times occasionally, but don't act on it. It means we're not plaster

saints who will be shocked and disapproving if they have thoughts about

it themselves.

 

It's just the truth, and I have to say that it doesn't feel right to be

asked to lie

about an analogous truth here. Owning the truth isn't preaching

carnivorousness.

I understand that the list is for vegetarian recipes and not for

pro-meat rants, but I think you're underestimating some of your most

committed vegetarian users,users and misunderstanding some of the rest.

And I think it's making you feel you need to control things a bit tightly

 

Trust the process, will ya? You have good folks here.

 

$.04 <--(inflation)

Rain

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[Guest guest]

> Let me know, Pat, if you feel it's

appropriate for me to send the non-animal-flesh passages.

 

Sounds fine to me

 

Best, Pat

 

---

http://www.vegandonelight.com/spice

http://beanvegan.blogspot.com

http://river-rambles.blogspot.com

" As long as you derive inner help and comfort from anything, keep it. " Mahatma

Gandhi.

 

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

l have left several lists in the past that got into ethics.

If you don't find another list, you can always start one.

There are probably a number of people who would enjoy debating ethics.

But I wont be one of them.

PEACE

 

 

> Does anyone know of another Internet list where full discussion of the

> ethics and practicality of all types of khessedan choices--vegan,

> vegetarian, pescetarian, and other--would definitely be appropriate? It

> would be good to be able to seek and offer help occasionally regarding

> the ethics of dietary choices, without taking advantage and without risk

> of giving offense.

>

> Lynn

>

>

>

> ---

>

>