Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Thqnks, Winterchill. It's tricky to use a 'convenient' definition of veganism, or vegetarianism for that matter, isn't it! I can't speak to Bittman's motives, but I always think that a version, however worded, of the International Vegetarian Untion's definition is fairly widely understood. It is the one that we use on this group in order to avoid misinformation, misunderstandings, arguments, etc. (At least we hope so.) For the benefit of newbies on this group, I'll copy in part of what's on the IVU website. The IVU says about veganism: " Vegan: excludes animal flesh (meat, poultry, fish and seafood), animal products (eggs and dairy), and usually excludes honey and the wearing and use of animal products (leather, silk, wool, lanolin, gelatin...). " The major vegan societies all disallow honey, but some " vegans " still use it. Some " vegans " also refuse to eat yeast products. " Dietary Vegan: follows a vegan diet, but doesn't necessarily try and exclude non-food uses of animals. " Plant-Based Diet - increasingly being used to mean a diet exclusively of plant material, therefore the same as 'Dietary Vegan'. " From http://www.ivu.org/faq/definitions.html The definition of vegetarianism is as one would expect: " Vegetarian: For the purpose of membership of IVU, vegetarianism includes veganism and is defined as the practice of not eating meat, poultry or fish or their by-products, with or without the use of dairy products or eggs. " Often broken down further into OVO-LACTO, and LACTO. Vegetarians may or may not try and minimize their non food use of animals like vegans. " Also from http://www.ivu.org/faq/definitions.html The world sometimes uses terms such as 'pesco-vegetarian' (people otherwise vegetarian who sometimes eat fish or seafood) or 'semi-vegetarian' or 'pseudo-vegetarians' (people who eat vegetarian some of the time but not excusively). Vegetarian associations sometimes refer to the existence of such words but generally consider those who eat animals of any kind as non-vegetarians. For more on vegetarianism and veganism, various variations (eg fruitarianism), rationales, etc., see the websie above. Okay - duty done for now. Off the soapbox!!!! Best, Pat (Co-owner with Piers) > mark bittman is not someone whom I would look to on what is a vegan or vegetarian. > He looks for excuses to condone whatever he wants to sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 7, 2010 Report Share Posted January 7, 2010 Pat I am aware of the definitions but my problem with Bittman is he doesnt get the basis of what vegetarian is.  I have listened to him on many shows bascially pooing vegetarians and anyone who attempts to do the lifestyle fulltime. He maybe writing cookbooks but he is not supportive of the movement. Personally I think he is just using vegetarians to make money off of us while he can. I put him on the same level as Pat Crocker the woman who wrote the Vegan Bible, who is neither vegan or many of the recipes in her cookbook. I dont mean to be snarky at all but buying anything vegetarian from these 2 would be like buying a book on how to stay married written by Zsa Zsa Gabor.  'Do what thou wilt, but harm none'. Each individual is responsible for discovering his or her own true nature and developing it fully, in harmony with the outer world.  Goddess Bless. ________________________________ Pat / 'River' <drpatsant Wed, January 6, 2010 7:19:46 PM Re: Welcome to new member Sunny - Winterchill  Thqnks, Winterchill. It's tricky to use a 'convenient' definition of veganism, or vegetarianism for that matter, isn't it! I can't speak to Bittman's motives, but I always think that a version, however worded, of the International Vegetarian Untion's definition is fairly widely understood. It is the one that we use on this group in order to avoid misinformation, misunderstandings, arguments, etc. (At least we hope so.) For the benefit of newbies on this group, I'll copy in part of what's on the IVU website. The IVU says about veganism: " Vegan: excludes animal flesh (meat, poultry, fish and seafood), animal products (eggs and dairy), and usually excludes honey and the wearing and use of animal products (leather, silk, wool, lanolin, gelatin...). " The major vegan societies all disallow honey, but some " vegans " still use it. Some " vegans " also refuse to eat yeast products. " Dietary Vegan: follows a vegan diet, but doesn't necessarily try and exclude non-food uses of animals. " Plant-Based Diet - increasingly being used to mean a diet exclusively of plant material, therefore the same as 'Dietary Vegan'. " From http://www.ivu. org/faq/definiti ons.html The definition of vegetarianism is as one would expect: " Vegetarian: For the purpose of membership of IVU, vegetarianism includes veganism and is defined as the practice of not eating meat, poultry or fish or their by-products, with or without the use of dairy products or eggs. " Often broken down further into OVO-LACTO, and LACTO. Vegetarians may or may not try and minimize their non food use of animals like vegans. " Also from http://www.ivu. org/faq/definiti ons.html The world sometimes uses terms such as 'pesco-vegetarian' (people otherwise vegetarian who sometimes eat fish or seafood) or 'semi-vegetarian' or 'pseudo-vegetarians ' (people who eat vegetarian some of the time but not excusively). Vegetarian associations sometimes refer to the existence of such words but generally consider those who eat animals of any kind as non-vegetarians. For more on vegetarianism and veganism, various variations (eg fruitarianism) , rationales, etc., see the websie above. Okay - duty done for now. Off the soapbox!!!! Best, Pat (Co-owner with Piers) > mark bittman is not someone whom I would look to on what is a vegan or vegetarian. > He looks for excuses to condone whatever he wants to sell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 >I dont mean to be snarky at all but buying anything vegetarian from >these 2 >would be like buying a book on how to stay married written by Zsa >Zsa Gabor. You made me laugh with this!!! Ahhhh, but what happens now if someone is a fan of the beautiful Zsa Zsa! (whoops! let's not go there!!) The definitions were not so much for you as for me: trying to get a grip on where people were coming from, what misconceptions there might be out there because of certain celebrity chefs, why we are so hazy sometimes about what vegetarian and/or vegan means. It's as they comment on the IVU website (and I'll elaborate on this just for the sheer heck of it): 'non-meat eaters'(for example) are not necessarily veg - because they (often, I guess) define 'meat' however they like. In my own observation, some people say they never never eat meat and, when pressed to explain (as in 'never? really?') they add that they would never eat a mammal but go on to say that 'of course' they eat fish and seafood, poultry and, well, often wild game because the creatures although mammals have lived a good life out there before we came along. You know? It's all a matter of definition If one says 'animal flesh' instead of meat (a term I use a lot), it may become a matter of whether this or that creature is an 'animal' or whether it is a fish or a bird or an insect. Definitions! I thought getting the definitions out there might help me - and anyone who was trying to understand what I personally mean by vegetarian and vegan. That's not just me, of course, I do understand that, because the IVU and I are in accord over just about everything. As for 'flexitarians' (which you mention), to me, frankly, they are in the same category as 'freegans'in that neither is committed to vegetarianism (including, like the IVU, veganism under this umbrella term). So I got up on a soapbox over it all. I did google for the chef in question, Mr Bittman, and I was startled at the large and varied publications - far more than I had thought - and wondered how he could justify cooking meat one day and vegetarian fare the next and be taken seriously. I guess he is a good cook and writes good books, but I don't like to place my own money too often in the laps of those who confuse their messages in this way. That's just me. I do appreciate those who are coming out and saying how good it is to eat less meat and more vegetables - it helps our 'cause' indeed. But my own agenda is not a health agenda, so I am a little irked by the 'anything goes as long as veggies are included a bit' attitude of some. That's just me too. I'm speaking here as a person, a member of this group, if you will, not as a group owner, although I realize that most people will assume I am telling them how to think. Not. Just how I think. I could go on (no, steady on, I promise I'm not going to say more right now!), but you get the drift - probably from the start. Anyway, thanks for your email. Much appreciated by me Huge hugs. Pat , Winterchill <winterchill57 wrote: > > Pat I am aware of the definitions but my problem with Bittman is he doesnt get the basis of what vegetarian is.  > > I have listened to him on many shows bascially pooing vegetarians and anyone who attempts to do the lifestyle fulltime. > He maybe writing cookbooks but he is not supportive of the movement. Personally I think he is just using vegetarians to make money off of us while he can. > > I put him on the same level as Pat Crocker the woman who wrote the Vegan Bible, who is neither vegan or many of the recipes in her cookbook. > > I dont mean to be snarky at all but buying anything vegetarian from these 2 would be like buying a book on how to stay married written by Zsa Zsa Gabor. > > >  > 'Do what thou wilt, but harm none'. Each individual is responsible for discovering his or her own true nature and developing it fully, in harmony with the outer world. >  > Goddess Bless. > > > > > ________________________________ > Pat / 'River' <drpatsant > > Wed, January 6, 2010 7:19:46 PM > Re: Welcome to new member Sunny - Winterchill > >  > > > Thqnks, Winterchill. It's tricky to use a 'convenient' definition of veganism, or vegetarianism for that matter, isn't it! I can't speak to Bittman's motives, but I always think that a version, however worded, of the International Vegetarian Untion's definition is fairly widely understood. It is the one that we use on this group in order to avoid misinformation, misunderstandings, arguments, etc. (At least we hope so.) For the benefit of newbies on this group, I'll copy in part of what's on the IVU website. > > The IVU says about veganism: > > " Vegan: excludes animal flesh (meat, poultry, fish and seafood), animal products (eggs and dairy), and usually excludes honey and the wearing and use of animal products (leather, silk, wool, lanolin, gelatin...). > > " The major vegan societies all disallow honey, but some " vegans " still use it. Some " vegans " also refuse to eat yeast products. > > " Dietary Vegan: follows a vegan diet, but doesn't necessarily try and exclude non-food uses of animals. > > " Plant-Based Diet - increasingly being used to mean a diet exclusively of plant material, therefore the same as 'Dietary Vegan'. " > > From http://www.ivu. org/faq/definiti ons.html > > The definition of vegetarianism is as one would expect: > > " Vegetarian: For the purpose of membership of IVU, vegetarianism includes veganism and is defined as the practice of not eating meat, poultry or fish or their by-products, with or without the use of dairy products or eggs. > > " Often broken down further into OVO-LACTO, and LACTO. Vegetarians may or may not try and minimize their non food use of animals like vegans. " > > Also from http://www.ivu. org/faq/definiti ons.html > > The world sometimes uses terms such as 'pesco-vegetarian' (people otherwise vegetarian who sometimes eat fish or seafood) or 'semi-vegetarian' or 'pseudo-vegetarians ' (people who eat vegetarian some of the time but not excusively). Vegetarian associations sometimes refer to the existence of such words but generally consider those who eat animals of any kind as non-vegetarians. For more on vegetarianism and veganism, various variations (eg fruitarianism) , rationales, etc., see the websie above. > > Okay - duty done for now. Off the soapbox!!!! > > Best, > > Pat (Co-owner with Piers) > > > mark bittman is not someone whom I would look to on what is a vegan or vegetarian. > > He looks for excuses to condone whatever he wants to sell. > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 8, 2010 Report Share Posted January 8, 2010 " The major vegan societies all disallow honey, but some " vegans " still use it. Some " vegans " also refuse to eat yeast products. This borders on Jainism. Patricia - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 9, 2010 Report Share Posted January 9, 2010 It is certainly vegan, anyway Honey is an animal product - for the benefit of the bees who produce it - and yeast is in that grey area between animal and vegetable. I myself have no problem with yeast, but I don't eat honey. (I'm not a Jain, but there are Jains on this group. We do not, however, generally get into discussions of religion here for fear of giving offence.) Best, Pat , Patricia <moondreamer64_2000 wrote: > > " The major vegan societies all disallow honey, but some " vegans " still use it. Some " vegans " also refuse to eat yeast products. > This borders on Jainism. > > Patricia > > - > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 I certainly meant no offense to anyone and if any was taken, I sincerely apologize. Patricia --- On Fri, 1/8/10, Pat / 'River' <drpatsant wrote: Pat / 'River' <drpatsant Re: Welcome to new member Sunny - Winterchill Friday, January 8, 2010, 5:07 PM It is certainly vegan, anyway Honey is an animal product - for the benefit of the bees who produce it - and yeast is in that grey area between animal and vegetable. I myself have no problem with yeast, but I don't eat honey. (I'm not a Jain, but there are Jains on this group. We do not, however, generally get into discussions of religion here for fear of giving offence.) Best, Pat , Patricia <moondreamer64_2000 wrote: > > " The major vegan societies all disallow honey, but some " vegans " still use it. Some " vegans " also refuse to eat yeast products. > This borders on Jainism. > > Patricia > > - > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 11, 2010 Report Share Posted January 11, 2010 Nah, we tend to get over what ailed us real quick around here.  'Do what thou wilt, but harm none'. Each individual is responsible for discovering his or her own true nature and developing it fully, in harmony with the outer world.  Goddess Bless. ________________________________ Patricia <moondreamer64_2000 Mon, January 11, 2010 1:23:33 AM Re: Re: Welcome to new member Sunny - Winterchill  I certainly meant no offense to anyone and if any was taken, I sincerely apologize. Patricia --- On Fri, 1/8/10, Pat / 'River' <drpatsant > wrote: Pat / 'River' <drpatsant > Re: Welcome to new member Sunny - Winterchill Friday, January 8, 2010, 5:07 PM It is certainly vegan, anyway Honey is an animal product - for the benefit of the bees who produce it - and yeast is in that grey area between animal and vegetable. I myself have no problem with yeast, but I don't eat honey. (I'm not a Jain, but there are Jains on this group. We do not, however, generally get into discussions of religion here for fear of giving offence.) Best, Pat , Patricia <moondreamer64_ 2000 wrote: > > " The major vegan societies all disallow honey, but some " vegans " still use it. Some " vegans " also refuse to eat yeast products. > This borders on Jainism. > > Patricia > > - > > > >     > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 12, 2010 Report Share Posted January 12, 2010 >Nah, we tend to get over what ailed us real quick around here. LOL Exactly! Hugs. Pat --- " If you cannot get rid of the family skeleton, you may as well make it dance. " George Bernard Shaw " Whenever people agree with me I always feel I must be wrong. " Oscar Wilde. ________________________________ Winterchill <winterchill57 Mon, January 11, 2010 5:06:56 PM Re: Re: Welcome to new member Sunny - Winterchill Nah, we tend to get over what ailed us real quick around here. 'Do what thou wilt, but harm none'. Each individual is responsible for discovering his or her own true nature and developing it fully, in harmony with the outer world. Goddess Bless. ________________________________ Patricia <moondreamer64_2000 Mon, January 11, 2010 1:23:33 AM Re: Re: Welcome to new member Sunny - Winterchill I certainly meant no offense to anyone and if any was taken, I sincerely apologize. Patricia --- On Fri, 1/8/10, Pat / 'River' <drpatsant > wrote: Pat / 'River' <drpatsant > Re: Welcome to new member Sunny - Winterchill Friday, January 8, 2010, 5:07 PM It is certainly vegan, anyway Honey is an animal product - for the benefit of the bees who produce it - and yeast is in that grey area between animal and vegetable. I myself have no problem with yeast, but I don't eat honey. (I'm not a Jain, but there are Jains on this group. We do not, however, generally get into discussions of religion here for fear of giving offence.) Best, Pat , Patricia <moondreamer64_ 2000 wrote: > > " The major vegan societies all disallow honey, but some " vegans " still use it. Some " vegans " also refuse to eat yeast products. > This borders on Jainism. > > Patricia > > - > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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