Help

[Guest guest]

hi there trin ,

I'm pretty new to this list....... but heartburn I know well .have six

children .. what worked for me was papya pills {{safe to use ,,taste good

and work ,, looking in your local health food stores they most likely will

carrY them good luck and happy holidays to all

ISABELLE

[Guest guest]

Baking soda has a recipe on the back for heart burn. I ate a lot of shaved

ice too. Good Luck and many blessings.

 

Renee

-

" Trin Joy " <trinanddave

<VEGAN;

Tuesday, December 19, 2000 1:08 AM

help

 

 

> I have recently found out that I am pregnant for the second time. The

first

> (pre-veg) pregnancy I practically lived on Tums. Now despite being vegan

and

> eating a good diet, I am having painful heartburn/indigestion. So, I have

> two questions:

>

> 1) Is Tums vegan? Or are there vegan antacids out there?

>

> 2) What natural remedies might I try/look for/think about?

>

> Trin

> _______________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>

>

>

>

> For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at

http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to

http://www.vrg.org/family.

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'm having the same problem myself, at the end of my second trimester. I have

had to take a lot of Tums, but was thinking of switching to Mylanta. I just

read in Andrew Weil's

newsletter that certain foods may make it worse. He mentioned tomato products,

dairy, and citrus fruits. Obviously dairy is not an issue for us vegans, but

it's possible that

the others have an effect. I'm trying to identify any common threads with what

I eat and if I get heartburn or not, and thus avoid having to take anything at

all.

You shouldn't feel annoyed that " despite " your good diet you're still getting

heartburn. Not all physiological problems have such a clear link to diet. The

pregnancy hormones

loosen not just your pelvic girdle, but a whole bunch of things, like your

esophageal sphincter, and a little person sitting on your internal organs,

squishing them and moving

them, can be annoying regardless of your diet. I think it's kind of a toss-up

which maladies any given pregnant woman will suffer from. I had horrible nausea

during the second

and third month, and morning sickness is one of those things that just hits some

women and not others. Our vegan diet will definitely help with a lot of things,

like

constipation and hemorroids, getting proper nutrition for us and our babies,

avoiding high fat, low quality junk foods that cause excessive weight gain

during pregnancy, avoiding

toxins, teratogens, and carcinogens in animal products, but not everything is

heavily diet related.

Anyway, congrats on your pregnancy!

Leena

 

Trin Joy wrote:

 

> I have recently found out that I am pregnant for the second time. The first

> (pre-veg) pregnancy I practically lived on Tums. Now despite being vegan and

> eating a good diet, I am having painful heartburn/indigestion. So, I have

> two questions:

>

> 1) Is Tums vegan? Or are there vegan antacids out there?

>

> 2) What natural remedies might I try/look for/think about?

>

> Trin

> _______________

> Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com

>

>

> For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at

http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to

http://www.vrg.org/family.

>

>

[Guest guest]

, " Trin Joy " <trinanddave@h...> wrote:

> I have recently found out that I am pregnant for the second time.

 

Congratulations!!!!! Wishing you an uneventful pregnancy and

empowering birth, and a healthy baby!

 

The first

> (pre-veg) pregnancy I practically lived on Tums. Now despite being

vegan and

> eating a good diet, I am having painful heartburn/indigestion. So, I

have

> two questions:

>

> 1) Is Tums vegan? Or are there vegan antacids out there?

 

I *think* Tums might be made of oyster shells, but I'm not sure.

Calcium carbonate products often are. You might want to check out

kosher antacids, they are more likely to be vegan (but you'd want to

phone the company just to make sure).

 

>

> 2) What natural remedies might I try/look for/think about?

 

Try propping yourself up on pillows at night, eat bland foods (I know

it's hard enough to keep anything down during that first trimester!).

Try to track what it is that sets it off and avoid whatever it is. You

might also want to check out http://www.myria.com, it's a website for

mothers which has lots of good pregnancy stuff on it, too.

 

Be well, Hadass

[Guest guest]

, " Trin Joy " <trinanddave@h...> wrote:

> I have recently found out that I am pregnant for the second time.

The first

> (pre-veg) pregnancy I practically lived on Tums. Now despite being

vegan and

> eating a good diet, I am having painful heartburn/indigestion. So,

I have

> two questions:

>

> 1) Is Tums vegan? Or are there vegan antacids out there?

>

> 2) What natural remedies might I try/look for/think about?

>

> Trin

 

I am not sure if Tums are vegan or not. There may be something at

your local healthfood store that could help as well.

When I have stomache issues I just drink chammomele tea (the

celestial seasons kind) it really helps. Being pregnant though you

should watch out for certain herbs in some teas because they are not

all good for pregnant women.

There is another egroup I belong to that you may be interested in as

well. It's simply called, Pregnant Vegans.

I am 30 weeks and doing just wonderfully. We are going to have a

little girl (our first is a 4year old boy)around Feb 27th.

 

Summer

[Guest guest]

On Tue, 19 Dec 2000, Summer wrote:

 

> There is another egroup I belong to that you may be interested in as

> well. It's simply called, Pregnant Vegans.

 

I'd be interested in joining that group. I'm in my fifth month and due in

May.

 

For the most part I've found if I avoid tomato products, coffee

(caffeinated or decaf, doesn't matter), peanut butter and chocolate and if

I drink lots of water throughout the day I can usually avoid heartburn.

Somedays, though, there's just nothing I can do.

 

----

Patricia Bullington-McGuire <patricia

 

The brilliant Cerebron, attacking the problem analytically, discovered

three distinct kinds of dragon: the mythical, the chimerical, and the

purely hypothetical. They were all, one might say, nonexistent, but each

nonexisted in an entirely different way ...

-- Stanislaw Lem, " Cyberiad "

[Guest guest]

In a message dated 12/19/2000 5:14:33 AM Pacific Standard Time, trinanddave writes:

 

 

1) Is Tums vegan? Or are there vegan antacids out there?

 

2) What natural remedies might I try/look for/think about?

 

Trin

 

 

I had horrible heartburn when I was pregnant with my son, eating small meals helps and so does drinking a glass of soymilk whenever you have heartburn. I am not sure about Tums being vegan.

 

Sara

[Guest guest]

Rhonda, have you tried making lasagna with tofu instead of ricotta or

Greek spinach pie with tofu instead of feta? Maybe they would think it

was cheese...

______________

GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO!

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[Guest guest]

There are lots of great things you can do with tofu, like tofu lasagna

(puree a lb. of tofu in a blender and use it like you would ricotta cheese

inside the noodles - the sauce and the seasonings you use will give it a lot

of flavor), or scrambled tofu, enchiladas - a great book, and one of my

favorites is Tofu Cookery by Louise Hagler. Lots of kid (and adult!)

friendly recipes to give you ideas -and most of them are very simple and

easy to make.

 

Susan C.

-

Rhonda Tuck <herbalgirl

_yah

Thursday, March 15, 2001 7:55 PM

help

 

 

> Hi,

> I am really having a hard time trying to find a recipe with tofu that my

kids will like. I do sneak it into the pudding but I know that there are

many great recipes out there. I keep buying it and eventually just add it

to the pudding. I'm not sure if they just hate the look or the taste. I've

tried soy milk (white, vanilla and plain) so many times and now just settle

for the rice or almond milk. I guess this would have been easier if I had

started them from birth but this is a whole new way of life for my 4, 8 and

11 year old...we've been veggie for about 8 months now. I love it but they

are very resistant!

> Doesn't help when grandparents do not respect our choice of a healthy life

style either!

> I would appreciate any advice!

> Thanks,

> Rhonda<br clear=all><hr>Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at <a

href= " http://explorer.msn.com " >http://explorer.msn.com</a><br></p>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Can you share with us what you are eating? A typical days menu?

 

> Hi-

>

> I'm hoping to appeal to this wise group for some

> advice and support. First some background

> information... I am currently about 25 pounds

> overweight, all due to excess post babyweight. I also

> have high cholesterol (when I say high, I mean high

> 320 total!), which is not controlled by the standard

> diet and exercise. I am working with a fantastic

> cardiologist, who has been patient with me to find the

> right treatment for me (and yes, he strongly supports

> and encourages a vegetarian diet). Pre-baby I was

> very fit (ran marathons, did triathlons, etc.) I have

> never had a weight problem before, so this is

> extremely difficult for me. I am working with an

> exercise physiologist and nutritionist to see if there

> is anything more I can do. With that said, recently

> at a company Christmas party, a rather rude person

> inquired why I didn't just start eating meat again,

> because it certainly wasn't helping my cholesterol or

> weight. Suddenly I felt like I was a poster person

> for vegetarianism, and I was setting a horrible

> example of the benefits of such a lifestyle. Yes, I

> am a little overweight and have high cholesterol, I

> know deep down that my choice is the right choice.

> Maybe it was that I was embarrassed for myself (my

> self-image has definitely dropped, and I am sensitive

> about my appearance), or maybe I am tired of getting

> teased, harassed, or inundated with questions about my

> choice of lifestyle...but this persons comments

> really affected me. I know, I know, I should just be

> like a duck and let the water roll off my back.

>

> I am normally a rather quiet, compassionate person,

> and most people who know me would say I am very

> tolerant to other peoples comments and opinions.

> Mostly I let people make their statements and simply

> listen and nod, but I dont want to sit by quietly

> anymore. I am ready to take a stand, and I just need

> to arm myself with good responses...especially since I

> don't look like the stereotypical vegetarian.

>

> I am open to any words of encouragement or advice.

>

> Warm regards,

>

> Karen

>

>

>

>

> Check out Shopping and Auctions for all of

> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at

> or bid at http://auctions.

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Karen,

You didn't mention if you were vegetarian or vegan. I think this would make a

big difference. Sometimes vegetarians don't realize how much dairy they're

actually eating. It

can really add up the fat grams and cholesterol. If you're still consuming

dairy or eggs, I think your first step should be to rid your diet of these.

Even a little bit of

dairy consumed daily, as cheese, milk, etc can be devastating for a " healthy "

diet.

If you're already vegan though, then there are other steps you could take, and

I'll tailor my comments accordingly. Brenda Davis' book Becoming Vegan has some

great tips on

eating well. It's worthwhile to keep a food diary for a few weeks, just to see

what your diet actually consists of. Too few veggies? Too many refined carbs?

Before I started

paying close attention, I unknowingly was eating a very high fat vegan diet,

with too many calories. Right now, I am still nursing, so I'm not trying really

hard to lose the 5

pregnancy pounds I still have left. But I was about 10 lbs overweight before I

got pregnant, so I'd like to lose another 15 total or so. Unlike some vegans, I

don't lose weight

easily. I never have, vegan or not, postbaby or not. I tend to be heavy. But

paying attention to what I'm eating, ie calories, fat, etc for a couple weeks

(using labels or a

calorie counting book) really helps me to realize what a good portion size

should be. Again, definitely rid your diet of dairy, if that's still there.

People, including

mainstream dietitians often do not understand that a diet free of meat but

containing a moderate amount of dairy, are often not that much better than a

non-veg diet. Dairy,

nutritionally speaking, is just liquid meat.

Hope that helps.

Leena

 

Karen Butler wrote:

 

> Hi-

>

> I'm hoping to appeal to this wise group for some

> advice and support. First some background

> information... I am currently about 25 pounds

> overweight, all due to excess post babyweight. I also

> have high cholesterol (when I say high, I mean high

> 320 total!), which is not controlled by the standard

> diet and exercise. I am working with a fantastic

> cardiologist, who has been patient with me to find the

> right treatment for me (and yes, he strongly supports

> and encourages a vegetarian diet). Pre-baby I was

> very fit (ran marathons, did triathlons, etc.) I have

> never had a weight problem before, so this is

> extremely difficult for me. I am working with an

> exercise physiologist and nutritionist to see if there

> is anything more I can do. With that said, recently

> at a company Christmas party, a rather rude person

> inquired why I didn't just start eating meat again,

> because it certainly wasn't helping my cholesterol or

> weight. Suddenly I felt like I was a poster person

> for vegetarianism, and I was setting a horrible

> example of the benefits of such a lifestyle. Yes, I

> am a little overweight and have high cholesterol, I

> know deep down that my choice is the right choice.

> Maybe it was that I was embarrassed for myself (my

> self-image has definitely dropped, and I am sensitive

> about my appearance), or maybe I am tired of getting

> teased, harassed, or inundated with questions about my

> choice of lifestyle...but this person’s comments

> really affected me. I know, I know, I should just be

> like a duck and let the water roll off my back.

>

> I am normally a rather quiet, compassionate person,

> and most people who know me would say I am very

> tolerant to other people’s comments and opinions.

> Mostly I let people make their statements and simply

> listen and nod, but I don’t want to sit by quietly

> anymore. I am ready to take a stand, and I just need

> to arm myself with good responses...especially since I

> don't look like the stereotypical vegetarian.

>

> I am open to any words of encouragement or advice.

>

> Warm regards,

>

> Karen

>

>

>

> Check out Shopping and Auctions for all of

> your unique holiday gifts! Buy at

> or bid at http://auctions.

>

>

> For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at

http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to

http://www.vrg.org/family.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Hi. I'm new to this group and I thought I'd add to these e-

mails. I agree with Leena, that going vegan is a very important step

to better health. However, counting calories isn't quite necessary.

Dr. Neal Barnard of PCRM (Physician's Committee for Responsible

Medicine), Dr. Dean Ornish, Dr. Attwood, the late Dr. Spock, among

other well known physicians, advocate a four food groups diet -

grains, legumes, fruit and vegetables. Fat intake is kept at 10-15%

and simple sugars are discouraged. On this type of diet, one does

not need to watch what is eaten and can eat as much as one desires.

Dr. Dean Ornish was the first person to actually reverse heart

disease with diet alone, which was believed to be irreversible, even

in severe cases. When I was still a lacto-ovo, I found out I had a

220 cholesterol level, which goes to show lacto-ovos are just as

unhealthy as non-vegetarians. By the way, cardiologists believe 150

is the ideal cholesterol level, not 200. The latter figure was set

by the government because the average person's cholesterol is 250 and

200 was thought to be an easier goal than 150.

 

From what I've seen, most vegans still carry a little extra. If

following Dr. Barnard's diet or Dr. Ornish's diet, the weight will

come off, in time. I too still have extra from my pregnancy a couple

of years ago. It is very difficult to stay motivated and continue

exercising. Another problem for weight loss in the US is all the

hydrogenated oils. One must discontinue intake of hydrogenated

margarines and processed foods immediately. These oils lower hdl

levels, raise ldl levels, and are very difficult to get rid of. Many

physicians believe hydrogenated oils are worse than animal and

saturated fats. Because these oils are man-altered, the body does

not know how to process them and are stored in the body almost

indefinitely.

 

I would like to add one last comment. It is a statistical fact

that countries which eat the most animal protein have the highest

levels of osteoporosis. To oversimplify, when excessive animal

protein is consumed, calcium is excreted in the urine. Only about

30% of milk's calcium is actually absorbed. This does not happen on

a high vegetable protein diet. Interestingly, arugula and kale have

the highest mg of calcium per 100 calories compared to other sources

(Milk does not have a very good ratio of mg/100 calories). Molasses

and figs also are quite high in calcium. The US has the highest

level of osteoporosis in the world; European nations follow. In

Thailand, the average calcium intake is 400 mg/day and there is

virtually no osteoporosis in the country. Hopefully, that info,

along with the inhumane conditions for milk cows, will help people

kick the dairy habit. Besides, the only way to keep bones strong is

to exercise like running or strength training.

 

Raquela

 

 

, leena@r... wrote:

> Karen,

> You didn't mention if you were vegetarian or vegan. I think this

would make a big difference. Sometimes vegetarians don't realize how

much dairy they're actually eating. It

> can really add up the fat grams and cholesterol. If you're still

consuming dairy or eggs, I think your first step should be to rid

your diet of these. Even a little bit of

> dairy consumed daily, as cheese, milk, etc can be devastating for

a " healthy " diet.

> If you're already vegan though, then there are other steps you

could take, and I'll tailor my comments accordingly. Brenda Davis'

book Becoming Vegan has some great tips on

> eating well. It's worthwhile to keep a food diary for a few weeks,

just to see what your diet actually consists of. Too few veggies?

Too many refined carbs? Before I started

> paying close attention, I unknowingly was eating a very high fat

vegan diet, with too many calories. Right now, I am still nursing,

so I'm not trying really hard to lose the 5

> pregnancy pounds I still have left. But I was about 10 lbs

overweight before I got pregnant, so I'd like to lose another 15

total or so. Unlike some vegans, I don't lose weight

> easily. I never have, vegan or not, postbaby or not. I tend to

be heavy. But paying attention to what I'm eating, ie calories, fat,

etc for a couple weeks (using labels or a

> calorie counting book) really helps me to realize what a good

portion size should be. Again, definitely rid your diet of dairy, if

that's still there. People, including

> mainstream dietitians often do not understand that a diet free of

meat but containing a moderate amount of dairy, are often not that

much better than a non-veg diet. Dairy,

> nutritionally speaking, is just liquid meat.

> Hope that helps.

> Leena

>

> Karen Butler wrote:

>

> > Hi-

> >

> > I'm hoping to appeal to this wise group for some

> > advice and support. First some background

> > information... I am currently about 25 pounds

> > overweight, all due to excess post babyweight. I also

> > have high cholesterol (when I say high, I mean high

> > 320 total!), which is not controlled by the standard

> > diet and exercise. I am working with a fantastic

> > cardiologist, who has been patient with me to find the

> > right treatment for me (and yes, he strongly supports

> > and encourages a vegetarian diet). Pre-baby I was

> > very fit (ran marathons, did triathlons, etc.) I have

> > never had a weight problem before, so this is

> > extremely difficult for me. I am working with an

> > exercise physiologist and nutritionist to see if there

> > is anything more I can do. With that said, recently

> > at a company Christmas party, a rather rude person

> > inquired why I didn't just start eating meat again,

> > because it certainly wasn't helping my cholesterol or

> > weight. Suddenly I felt like I was a poster person

> > for vegetarianism, and I was setting a horrible

> > example of the benefits of such a lifestyle. Yes, I

> > am a little overweight and have high cholesterol, I

> > know deep down that my choice is the right choice.

> > Maybe it was that I was embarrassed for myself (my

> > self-image has definitely dropped, and I am sensitive

> > about my appearance), or maybe I am tired of getting

> > teased, harassed, or inundated with questions about my

> > choice of lifestyle...but this person's comments

> > really affected me. I know, I know, I should just be

> > like a duck and let the water roll off my back.

> >

> > I am normally a rather quiet, compassionate person,

> > and most people who know me would say I am very

> > tolerant to other people's comments and opinions.

> > Mostly I let people make their statements and simply

> > listen and nod, but I don't want to sit by quietly

> > anymore. I am ready to take a stand, and I just need

> > to arm myself with good responses...especially since I

> > don't look like the stereotypical vegetarian.

> >

> > I am open to any words of encouragement or advice.

> >

> > Warm regards,

> >

> > Karen

> >

> >

> >

> > Check out Shopping and Auctions for all of

> > your unique holiday gifts! Buy at

> > or bid at http://auctions.

> >

> >

> > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG

website at http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for

families go to http://www.vrg.org/family.

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Well thanks everyone for responding. I have been

keeping a food journal since your responses, and I

believe part of my problem is too much carbohydrates.

I must admit, I am a lover of carbs...bread, pasta,

rice, etc. So, I am modifying that part of my diet.

A nutrionist told me I should eat 60% of my carbs by

noon each day. Also, she said that I should try

cutting out the starchy carbs at dinner. As for eggs,

I have never really eaten eggs...never liked them.

Then once I went veg. 7 years ago, I became really

grossed out by them. I drink soymilk, but on

occassion, I do partake of ice cream (by occassion, I

mean about once a month). I will cut out the ice

cream. I have no problem exercising, as I love it.

With the diet modifications and I am going to increase

the exercise even more (2+ hours cardio a day), I am

hoping that will do the trick.

 

As for the cholesterol, I am not holding my breath.

My cardiologist has given me a goal of 240 total.

Higher than what is considered normal, but given that

my HDL is so high (90), 240 total will give me a

reasonable ratio. I think I will have to resort to

some sort of medication, even though I hate to do it.

Diet usually only lowers cholesterol by 10%, so that

still wouldn't bring it to a reasonable level. I have

the name of a Homepathic doctor, so I will try her

before resorting to drugs.

 

Anyway, thanks for all the advice. I am excited to

make the diet changes and see if it helps. Plus, in

the long run I'm sure I'll at least feel better,

because I will be healthier.

 

Happy 2002!

 

Karen

 

 

 

Send your FREE holiday greetings online!

http://greetings.

[Guest guest]

<When I was still a lacto-ovo, I found out I had a

220 cholesterol level, which goes to show lacto-ovos are just as

unhealthy as non-vegetarians.>

 

That's a bit a generalization. There are those like me, who are lacto-ovo

because they occasionally still eat cheese or things which contain eggs, and

follow otherwise a vegan regimen. Also, your experience is yours, it doesn't set

the standard for every single person who eats like you do or has the same

exercise routine. It takes a little more than one person to establish a standard

so to enable us to make a statement as strong as the one you just made.

 

Peace,

 

" My darling girl, when are you going to understand

that being normal isn't necessarily a virtue.

It rather denotes a lack of courage! "

 

Aunt Frances in Practical Magic

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

There's a big difference between refined and unrefined carbs. Don't cut down

on your whole grains when Wonder bread is the real culprit.

 

Bonnie

-

" Karen Butler " <kbutlerjr

 

Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:23 AM

Re: Re: Help

 

 

 

Well thanks everyone for responding. I have been

keeping a food journal since your responses, and I

believe part of my problem is too much carbohydrates.

I must admit, I am a lover of carbs...bread, pasta,

rice, etc. So, I am modifying that part of my diet.

A nutrionist told me I should eat 60% of my carbs by

noon each day. Also, she said that I should try

cutting out the starchy carbs at dinner. As for eggs,

I have never really eaten eggs...never liked them.

Then once I went veg. 7 years ago, I became really

grossed out by them. I drink soymilk, but on

occassion, I do partake of ice cream (by occassion, I

mean about once a month). I will cut out the ice

cream. I have no problem exercising, as I love it.

With the diet modifications and I am going to increase

the exercise even more (2+ hours cardio a day), I am

hoping that will do the trick.

 

As for the cholesterol, I am not holding my breath.

My cardiologist has given me a goal of 240 total.

Higher than what is considered normal, but given that

my HDL is so high (90), 240 total will give me a

reasonable ratio. I think I will have to resort to

some sort of medication, even though I hate to do it.

Diet usually only lowers cholesterol by 10%, so that

still wouldn't bring it to a reasonable level. I have

the name of a Homepathic doctor, so I will try her

before resorting to drugs.

 

Anyway, thanks for all the advice. I am excited to

make the diet changes and see if it helps. Plus, in

the long run I'm sure I'll at least feel better,

because I will be healthier.

 

Happy 2002!

 

Karen

 

 

 

Send your FREE holiday greetings online!

http://greetings.

 

 

 

For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at

http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to

http://www.vrg.org/family.

 

 

[Guest guest]

I know the differences between refined and unrefined

carbs... and I don't eat Wonder bread, YUCK! Even

though I eat a lot of whole grains, I still need to

watch it. I am not running like I did when I was

running marathons, so my body just doesn't need as

much of the grains, oatmeal, etc. Thanks for the

input.

 

Karen

 

--- Barker <bebarker wrote:

> There's a big difference between refined and

> unrefined carbs. Don't cut down

> on your whole grains when Wonder bread is the real

> culprit.

>

> Bonnie

 

>

 

 

 

 

Send your FREE holiday greetings online!

http://greetings.

[Guest guest]

This is for Elisa who responded to my e-mail about my statement that

ovo-lactos are just as unhealthy as non-vegetarians. My statements

about health are derived from Dr. Dean Ornish, Dr. Attwood, Dr. Spock

and Dr. Barnard, who are respected by their peers, not my own

observations. These men have shown (with many studies) that the only

diet which truly promotes good health is a plant-based one. Let's

face it, Dr. Dean Ornish reversed heart disease on a vegan diet, not

an ovo-lacto vegetarian or lacto-vegetarian diet. From what I have

read by Dr. Ornish, Dr. Attwood, and Dr. Barnard, these doctors feel

individuals that consume dairy products are about the same

nutritionally as non-vegetarians. Ovo-lactos tend to replace their

protein unnecessarily with dairy products, often making them more

unhealthy than non-vegetarians. Often times, ovo-lacto vegetarians

have higher cholesterol levels than non-vegetarians. Furthermore, it

has been shown in studies, individuals who maintain an exercise

regimen, yet stil eat a " typical American Diet " or other diet high in

sat fat and cholesterol, Usually do not see an increase in their

cholesteral, i.e. military members. Also, many people who appear

healthy, do have high cholesterol levels and don't know it.

 

Raquela Sgro-Gibson

 

 

 

, " ~*~*Elisa*~*~ " <elisa.bieg@s...> wrote:

> <When I was still a lacto-ovo, I found out I had a

> 220 cholesterol level, which goes to show lacto-ovos are just as

> unhealthy as non-vegetarians.>

>

> That's a bit a generalization. There are those like me, who are

lacto-ovo because they occasionally still eat cheese or things which

contain eggs, and follow otherwise a vegan regimen. Also, your

experience is yours, it doesn't set the standard for every single

person who eats like you do or has the same exercise routine. It

takes a little more than one person to establish a standard so to

enable us to make a statement as strong as the one you just made.

>

> Peace,

>

> " My darling girl, when are you going to understand

> that being normal isn't necessarily a virtue.

> It rather denotes a lack of courage! "

>

> Aunt Frances in Practical Magic

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'd like to make a suggestion to Karen Butler. I would recommend

trying to get into a Dr. Ornish clinic or at least finding a

dietician or doctor who is open to the Dr. Ornish or Dr. McDougall

diet, since you are having a very hard time lowering your

cholesterol. These men have done amazing with only a plant-based

diet. Dr. Ornish was the first person to ever reverse heart disease,

previously thought to be unstoppable. Diets like the new four food

groups have lowered cholesterol levels dramatically for the majority

of people on it. It's also been shown by these studies, it is just

as traumatic for an individual to lower fat intake to 30% as it is to

lower it to 10-15%. It is my feeling (and this is just some

strangers opinion), that if taking medication will lower your

cholesterol now, for your health, it would probably be a good idea.

Dr. Ornish takes his patients off medication once their cholesterol

levels are low enough.

 

Raquela Sgro-Gibson

 

P.S. Don't cut the whole-grains!

 

 

, " Barker " <bebarker@p...> wrote:

> There's a big difference between refined and unrefined carbs. Don't

cut down

> on your whole grains when Wonder bread is the real culprit.

>

> Bonnie

> -

> " Karen Butler " <kbutlerjr>

>

> Wednesday, January 02, 2002 9:23 AM

> Re: Re: Help

>

>

>

> Well thanks everyone for responding. I have been

> keeping a food journal since your responses, and I

> believe part of my problem is too much carbohydrates.

> I must admit, I am a lover of carbs...bread, pasta,

> rice, etc. So, I am modifying that part of my diet.

> A nutrionist told me I should eat 60% of my carbs by

> noon each day. Also, she said that I should try

> cutting out the starchy carbs at dinner. As for eggs,

> I have never really eaten eggs...never liked them.

> Then once I went veg. 7 years ago, I became really

> grossed out by them. I drink soymilk, but on

> occassion, I do partake of ice cream (by occassion, I

> mean about once a month). I will cut out the ice

> cream. I have no problem exercising, as I love it.

> With the diet modifications and I am going to increase

> the exercise even more (2+ hours cardio a day), I am

> hoping that will do the trick.

>

> As for the cholesterol, I am not holding my breath.

> My cardiologist has given me a goal of 240 total.

> Higher than what is considered normal, but given that

> my HDL is so high (90), 240 total will give me a

> reasonable ratio. I think I will have to resort to

> some sort of medication, even though I hate to do it.

> Diet usually only lowers cholesterol by 10%, so that

> still wouldn't bring it to a reasonable level. I have

> the name of a Homepathic doctor, so I will try her

> before resorting to drugs.

>

> Anyway, thanks for all the advice. I am excited to

> make the diet changes and see if it helps. Plus, in

> the long run I'm sure I'll at least feel better,

> because I will be healthier.

>

> Happy 2002!

>

> Karen

>

>

>

> Send your FREE holiday greetings online!

> http://greetings.

>

>

>

> For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG

website at

> http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families

go to

> http://www.vrg.org/family.

>

>

[Guest guest]

It actually sounds as though your job won't be too hard - if your

daughter doesn't like meat, hopefully that means she actually

likes vegetables! I've grabbed some links:

 

http://www.connectingwithkids.com/archives/vegans.html

 

http://vegetarian.about.com/cs/child/index.htm?once=true &

 

http://www.thevegetariansite.com/vegchild.htm

 

http://www.execpc.com/~veggie/tips.html

 

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/childre1.html

 

http://www.vegkitchen.com/snacks.html

 

hopefully these help...there is also a great book out called " How

it all Vegan " (get it: vee-gan..) that has a good kid-friendly recipe

section...

 

Good luck! And don't worry...as long as she eats a good variety of

fruits, veggies, nuts and grains, you'll be meeting her needs. And

try to kick in a multi-vitamin to cover what might be missing.

 

Michelle

[Guest guest]

> As a serious carnivore I have had no experience with

> Vegetarianism. However, my daughter has never liked

> meat and in the last few months has pretty much

> stopped eating it all together.

>

> I need recipes and ideas (that are kid friendly,

> she's six) as well as general information on

proteins > and whatnot to make sure she gets enough of

what she

> needs.

>

> I've just started researching Vegan cooking and know

> nothing about it. Any help would be greatly

> appreciated.

 

What kind of " kid foods " does your daughter like?

Things like hotdogs, " chicken nuggets, " burgers are

available without meat, and easily microwavable.

Do you want to be making vegan meals, or are

cheese/milk/eggs still going to be in the diet?

 

The UK reference nutrient intake for 4-10 year olds

for protein is 19.7-28.3g/day - 39g of peanuts (a

little less than 1/5 of a pound, if memory serves)

provides 10g. (can anyone tell I visit vegan society

UK a lot?)

 

 

Celia

 

 

 

Send FREE video emails in Mail!

http://promo./videomail/

[Guest guest]

thank you for posting these links because my son who is only 2 1/2 also doesn't like meat except for ham. We are far from being vegetarian but do eat meatless meals frequently. I know it is healthier and that is why I am on this list to get some good ideas of what to cook. My brother is vegan so he is happy my son isn't a meat eater LOL....again thanks for the links even though I'm not the one who asked for them.

Sherry

 

-

mishka_ca

Monday, January 07, 2002 4:15 PM

Re: Help

It actually sounds as though your job won't be too hard - if your daughter doesn't like meat, hopefully that means she actually likes vegetables! I've grabbed some links:http://www.connectingwithkids.com/archives/vegans.htmlhttp://vegetarian.about.com/cs/child/index.htm?once=true & http://www.thevegetariansite.com/vegchild.htmhttp://www.execpc.com/~veggie/tips.htmlhttp://www.vegsoc.org/info/childre1.htmlhttp://www.vegkitchen.com/snacks.htmlhopefully these help...there is also a great book out called "How it all Vegan" (get it: vee-gan..) that has a good kid-friendly recipe section...Good luck! And don't worry...as long as she eats a good variety of fruits, veggies, nuts and grains, you'll be meeting her needs. And try to kick in a multi-vitamin to cover what might be missing.Michellecontact owner: -owner Mail list: Delivered-mailing list List-Un: - no flaming arguing or denigration of others allowedcontact owner with complaints regarding posting/list or anything else. Thank you.please share/comment/inform and mostly enjoy this list

[Guest guest]

I understand what you mean and agree to a degree, but there are variables. For

instance, we also do eat any canned products. We do not mix starches and

proteins. We do not have white flour products. And although we do have cheese or

yogurt sometimes, we do not have high colesterol or any other blood level messed

up. You are right when you write " Ovo-lactos tend to replace their protein

unnecessarily with dairy products, often making them more unhealthy than

non-vegetarians. " ; I think " tend to " and " often " are key words here. Which means

not every lacto-ovo vegetarian is as unhlealthy as omnivores, which is what you

stated earlier on, when you said " lacto vegetarians are just as unhleathy as

omnivores " . That can be true in some cases, but it's not always true. That's why

I said it was a generalization. You were unhealthy as a lacto vegetarians, we

are not for instance. So don't make of a number an " ALL " ; even when one talks

about " the majority " , it still is not " all " .

 

 

Hugs,

 

" My darling girl, when are you going to understand

that being normal isn't necessarily a virtue.

It rather denotes a lack of courage! "

 

Aunt Frances in Practical Magic

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Thalidomide!

 

Jo

 

 

> ok,

> so I'm trying to compile a list of instances when animal testing

> failed...like when something worked well in animal subjects,then

> failed miserably on humans..I'm trying to show for effect how animals

> and humans have different genetic makeup,and therefore are not good

> test subjects. Anyone got any ideas?(please cite sources,also,I'm

> trying to make this look as legit as possible)

>

> thanks,

> Chris X

>

>

>

>

>

> To send an email to -

>

>

[Guest guest]

I'd suggest looking at one of the pro-animal-experiments sites, so you

know the counter-arguments to prospective examples. For example, such

sites claim that Thalidomide was not animal tested *enough*. Google

" animal rights myths " to find them.

 

Jo wrote:

>

> Thalidomide!

>

> Jo

>

> > ok,

> > so I'm trying to compile a list of instances when animal testing

> > failed...like when something worked well in animal subjects,then

> > failed miserably on humans..I'm trying to show for effect how animals

> > and humans have different genetic makeup,and therefore are not good

> > test subjects. Anyone got any ideas?(please cite sources,also,I'm

> > trying to make this look as legit as possible)

> >

> > thanks,

> > Chris X

 

 

--

Ian McDonald

 

http://www.mcdonald.me.uk/

[Guest guest]

There's a very good book on this subject. 'Sacred Cows and Golden Geese' by

C. Ray Greek and Jean Swingle Greek, published in 2000 by Continuum. The

ISBN is 0-8264-1226-2. Here is a short quote (from page 73): " Penicillin

was delayed by animal testing and almost derailed altogether. Alexander

Fleming saw penicillin kill bacteria in petri dishes in 1929 and tested it

on rabbits. It did not work. We now know that rabbits excrete penicillin in

their urine; it is eliminated before it can be effective. Based on rabbit

work, Flemin put the drug aside, believing it to be useless as a systemic

medication. He later had a very sick patient and since he had nothing else

to try, administered the penicillin. The rest is history. "

 

There are also many examples in the book of the opposite type of case: a

drug that is found to be safe in animal tests, but proves to be harmful to

humans. The effects of thalidomide during pregnancy would be a powerful

example of this. The book contains many more examples of what you are

looking for. I highly recommend it.

 

Gerry

 

xxx_suicidal_vegan_xxx wrote:

>ok,

> so I'm trying to compile a list of instances when animal testing

>failed...like when something worked well in animal subjects,then

>failed miserably on humans..I'm trying to show for effect how animals

>and humans have different genetic makeup,and therefore are not good

>test subjects. Anyone got any ideas?(please cite sources,also,I'm

>trying to make this look as legit as possible)

>

>thanks,

>Chris X

>

>

>

> Post message:

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