Guest guest Posted October 19, 2000 Report Share Posted October 19, 2000 How do vegan families deal with the problem of feeding their companion animals?? We have a dog, a cat, & fish. I know that our dog can be fed a vege diet, but my understanding is that cats need to have meat. Fish food is also, ironically, made out of fish - not a pleasant thought. I'd appreciate learning about how any of you handle the problem of buying meat-based pet food for an otherwise vegan household. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 19, 2000 Report Share Posted October 19, 2000 We plan to - but have not yet - convert our dogs and cats (yes cats - they have a vegan source of taurine) to a vegan diet using Vegepet, a strictly vegan supplement with which you make your own pet food. I am a little worried about our elderly cats taking to the change in diet, but apparently if done gradually enough, it can be done. Let me know if you'd like a source for it. Caroline - <mom Thursday, October 19, 2000 1:51 PM feeding companion animals | How do vegan families deal with the problem of feeding their | companion | animals?? We have a dog, a cat, & fish. I know that our dog can be | fed a vege diet, but my understanding is that cats need to have meat. | Fish food is also, ironically, made out of fish - not a pleasant | thought. | | I'd appreciate learning about how any of you handle the problem of | buying meat-based pet food for an otherwise vegan household. Thanks. | | | | | For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to http://www.vrg.org/family. | | Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 20, 2000 Report Share Posted October 20, 2000 My two cats recommend Evolution, both cans and kibble. No extra cooking - it all comes ready to use. Over the years I've come to the conclusion that it is every bit as " natural " to feed a cat these products as any other pre-packaged cat foods, and probably a great deal healthier for the cat. I buy through http://www.vegancats.com. (Their FAQ is well worth reading for anyone who has questions about feeding cats vegan food.) Karen - <mom Thursday, October 19, 2000 1:51 PM feeding companion animals | How do vegan families deal with the problem of feeding their | companion | animals?? We have a dog, a cat, & fish. I know that our dog can be | fed a vege diet, but my understanding is that cats need to have meat. | Fish food is also, ironically, made out of fish - not a pleasant | thought. | | I'd appreciate learning about how any of you handle the problem of | buying meat-based pet food for an otherwise vegan household. Thanks. | | | | | For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to http://www.vrg.org/family. | | Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2000 Report Share Posted October 22, 2000 Dear John and friends, When I first became a vegan, I was all for doing the same with my animals. I was convinced that we should all eat the same way. Now, I have changed my career plans and I have devoted myself to researching and writing a book about the benefits of being vegan, the risks of not, and how we are so much more reverent for life and spiritually connected to our planet when we aren't eating at the top of the food chain. Through my journey, I have met a local animal nutritionist, Barrie, who is herself a vegan. (John, I live in Marietta, GA and Barrie lives in Alpharetta) She has spent 18 years of her life studying animal nutrition and behavior resolution, and has a business consulting with animals and their human companions. She is completely adverse to most commercial brands that are on the market due to all the "hidden" ingredients- and many other reasons as well. Barrie does not at all recommend a vegan diet for an animal that is physiologically adapted to be an omnivore. I was shocked and initially disappointed to find out that it might not be a good idea to feed my animals the same way that I've been eating. Since the time that I heard Barrie's viewpoints, I have done extensive research for my book, comparing the physiological differences between mammalian carnivores and herbivores in the wild. I can tell you without posting the entirety of my work to date, that the differences are many and extreme, and that human physiology definitely follows the path of the herbivore, while dogs and cats do indeed have all the traits of the carnivore/omnivore. I don't necessarily believe it's cruel if an animal who's physiologically adapted to eat meat does so. In the wild, and discounting human intervention, animals that are preyed upon are much larger in population and biologically account for being prey in their larger reproductive numbers. Also, when a cheetah goes after its prey, it is doing what a cheetah is biologically and physiologically adapted to do for survival. Although my heart skips a beat when I see this on the nature shows, it is a matter of survival and they are at the top of the food chain. Obviously, by virtue of us all being on this list, we all clearly understand that eating meat is not a matter of human survival, and is indeed, contraindicated for our flourishing health. There is however, the question of whether or not our domesticated animals could ever hunt for themselves or eat meat if left to their own devices. There is question as to whether most of them would eat *at all* if left to their own defenses. This doesn't however, change their carnivorous physiology. I rest assured that it is possible, as the previous posts indicate, that a natural carnivore can indeed subsist on a herbivorous diet- just as humans have subsisted by being omnivores. My concern would be- Just as the human species is best adapted to eat a herbivorous diet and clearly suffers from failing to do so, how is a natural carnivore impacted when eating a herbivorous diet? Since my research is clearly intended to show "people" that they are natural herbivores, I don't really know the answer to this question. I just wanted to make sure that we are all aware of these things when we make our decisions of what is best for our beloved companion animals - Please no flames, my time and energy are going into my baby and book right now. If anyone would like to get in touch with Barrie, please email me. Thanks All my best, Susan McCoy kellyandsusan Marietta, GA 24 weeks pregnant with first Due Feb 11-Home Water Birth with Husband & Midwife Three cats- Moe Sr.- 20 years old- My husband has had him since he was 10! Rescued from dumpster- *wild* sisters- Lucy & Violet- 3 years old Mixed Golden Retriever rescued from pound-Chloe- 2 years old (the love of my life) > AtlantaGaia Breaking the Last Tie to Cruelty: Re: feeding companion animals> > It took me more than 5 years after I became a vegetarian to finally arrive at > a truly meat-free (cruelty-free) house. In 1988, I was pleased to discover > VegePet, a nutritional supplement powder I add to home-cooked ingredients for > my 3 dogs AND my 4 cats. They are all very happy, healthy, and energetic, > and the experience for more than a decade with this God-send has been > successful.> > They publish an excellent book, with recipes and background on the scientific > principles behind their product. You can find out more about the subject at > a Web site:> > http://www.montanasat.net/vegepet/> > As for the recipes, I cook for the dogs once every two weeks, and the cats > every month. I cook enough to put away in both the freezer and the > refridgerator. > There are many recipes, but the one for the dogs I've been using almost from > the beginning involves cooking a big batch of the cooked garbanzo beans in > water in a large covered pot for a few hours, mashing it well with a potato > masher, then adding rice and chopped potatoes/carrots, etc for the last hour, > letting it cool for a few hours or overnight, then adding a bit of soy sauce, > corn oil, and of course the powdered nutritional supplement, which for dogs > is called, "VegeDog". The pot goes in the 'fridge when it's cool enough and > for daily feeding I ladle out the stew into three large bowls with > proportions of 3/4 content of rolled oats/water to make a cereal and 1/4 > ratio of the stew. The dogs love it.> > For cats it is a similar method, but I make a rough puree of the cooked > beans/vegetables after they have cooled, and add different oil (high-oleoic > safflower) and "VegeCat" powdered supplement for them. While pureeing in the > CuisineArt, I add just 1/8th ratio of rolled oats, and some frozen or fresh > corn. Then I divide up the food into small plastic, covered containers and > put them all in the freezer except for the first container, which is > refridgerated; I bring down another container from the 'fridge when the first > is half gone, so the new one can thaw. The cats like a bit of nutritional > yeast (not Brewer's yeast) sprinkled on their food when it is served. > > The benefits are many, including the animals enjoying no obesity, more > energy, and cleaner teeth. For our vegetarian family, the benefits are also > ethical. (And the kitty pan is less offensive too!)> > There is, in my experience, no transition period for dogs, and for cats, > usually one to 3 weeks is enough for even finicky eaters. The Web site and > their excellent book explain it all.> > It is common for family and friends to raise (or furrow) their eyebrows when > told of vegetarian cats, but "the proof is in the pudding" for me. It is > very well worth the minimal cooking effort to provide a truly clear > conscience for ethical vegetarians. Your pets will live longer, and have no > typical health problems such as urinary infections, skin problems, or > indegestion. Even if you are just a part-time vegetarian, if you really knew > all the disgusting ingredients used in even the most highly-touted and > expensive pet foods, you'd make the change to vegetarian pet food immediately.> > Thanking You for The Animals,> > John Elliott and Family> Atlanta, Georgia> AtlantaGAIA > > > > In a message dated 10/19/2000 1:59:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mom > writes:> > << Subj: feeding companion animals> 10/19/2000 1:59:19 PM Eastern Daylight Time> mom Reply-to: > > > How do vegan families deal with the problem of feeding their> companion > animals?? We have a dog, a cat, & fish. I know that our dog can be > fed a vege diet, but my understanding is that cats need to have meat. > Fish food is also, ironically, made out of fish - not a pleasant > thought.> > I'd appreciate learning about how any of you handle the problem of > buying meat-based pet food for an otherwise vegan household. Thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 22, 2000 Report Share Posted October 22, 2000 re: Evolution product pre-made vegan pet foods (http://www.vegancats.com) that sounds fine, judging from their Web site, but their costs are more than 3 times what I pay, serving-for-serving, compared with VegePet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 25, 2000 Report Share Posted October 25, 2000 Susan, I agree with you wholeheartedly. We need to remember that compassion does not end with our personal concepts of ethics. The animals that we choose as companions are born with their own, G-d given nature, and with digestive systems much different than ours. Cats in particular, being more carnivore than omnivore, have different essential proteins from humans which drives their dietary needs. Compassion and concern means acceptance also. Acceptance of these animals natural state of existance and their place in our world. I feel that if we cannot accept these creatures for who and what they are, we should not be keeping them in our homes. Forcing them to live by standards so unnatural to them is not promoting peace and compassion in my opinion. I'm sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but Susan you are not alone in your concerns. For those who might be interested, I have a 19 year old cat (still kittenish after all these years), a cat of undetermined age and a 15 year old dog, and have had some 30-40 cats come through the house to get cleaned up on their way to good homes. The cats and dog are the only non-vegetarians in the house. My human kids have been veggie from birth. Phil Welsher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2000 Report Share Posted October 26, 2000 I didn't see this in my mailbox, although I sent it a few days ago, so I am resending. Sorry if some of you already got it. Caroline wrote: >We plan to - but have not yet - convert our dogs and cats (yes cats - they have a vegan source of taurine) to a vegan diet using Vegepet, a strictly vegan supplement with which you make your own pet food. I am a little worried about our elderly cats taking to the change in diet, but apparently if done gradually enough, it can be done. Caroline Change your elderly cats' dietary habits? Hmmm... Let me tell you a story. I had a very dearly loved cat who died at age 16 and a half from something here in Greece is called uroloimoxis, something that happens to old people when they get too much urea and also they become dehydrated. I don't know the English term. Anyway. A couple of years before, the vet had warned me about this, and had suggested we switch to a brand of cat food called Hills, very high quality, which has a different can for different conditions: obese cats, neutered cats, elderly cats etc... This one apparently had less meat in it, to reduce the urea. Well, I can tell you the cat repeatedly went on hunger strike for as much as three days at a time, refusing to touch the new food, even when I " cunningly " mixed small bits of it into her usual stuff to " do it gradually " . Have you ever tried to give grated carrots to a cat by mixing them into their food? If yes, you will certainly have felt the frustration of seeing a neat little pile of grated carrots in an otherwise empty plate. How do they do it? The average cat is more clever than we are. Finally we gave up, thinking that, oh well, she has the right to die in the way she chooses, and at least live as she likes and eat what she likes in her last years. She had a wonderfully quick and easy death, by the way, I know because I was present. I wish I could also die as easily... Okay, you can always try, who knows, your cats may be more accommodating. Good luck (chuckle!) Irene Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 26, 2000 Report Share Posted October 26, 2000 I completely agree with Susan & Phil. I myself have two cats and feels it is not in their best interested nor would it be ethic for them to be vegetarians. Cats and dogs are not genetically design for a plant base diet but on the other hand humans are. As Phil beautiful stated below, we need to have an " acceptance of these animals natural state of existence and their place in our world " . My daughter who is six has asked many times why lions and others carnivores eat other animals and I explain to her that that's how nature intended it and that each creature has it's place in this world. Amanda > > PhilLand [sMTP:PhilLand] > Wednesday, October 25, 2000 7:41 PM > > Re: Re: feeding companion animals > > Susan, > > I agree with you wholeheartedly. > We need to remember that compassion does not end with our personal > concepts > of ethics. > The animals that we choose as companions are born with their own, G-d > given > nature, and with digestive systems much different than ours. Cats in > particular, being more carnivore than omnivore, have different essential > proteins from humans which drives their dietary needs. > Compassion and concern means acceptance also. Acceptance of these animals > > natural state of existance and their place in our world. > I feel that if we cannot accept these creatures for who and what they are, > we > should not be keeping them in our homes. Forcing them to live by > standards > so unnatural to them is not promoting peace and compassion in my opinion. > I'm sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but Susan you are not alone in > > your concerns. > For those who might be interested, I have a 19 year old cat (still > kittenish > after all these years), a cat of undetermined age and a 15 year old dog, > and > have had some 30-40 cats come through the house to get cleaned up on their > > way to good homes. > The cats and dog are the only non-vegetarians in the house. My human kids > > have been veggie from birth. > > Phil Welsher > > > > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at > http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to > http://www.vrg.org/family. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 27, 2000 Report Share Posted October 27, 2000 Susan, Phil and Amanda, I also agree that cats should not be made to eat a diet so unnatural to them. But the solution to the ethical problem is not so easy. I mean, we are making them live an unnatural life anyway, since in nature they wouldn't eat these horrible cans, or, generally, the meat of cows or sheep or whatever raised in such horrible conditions. (In homes in the countryside, one can enjoy the company of cats giving them the occasional snack while they indulge in healthy hunting of birds and mice, but for us city dwellers there is no such option) In nature they would also not breed so much, because they die much sooner (a cat in the street lives on average three years or so, what with hunger, repeated pregnancies, male fights and car accidents), so they would be much less in number than they are now. By choosing to keep these companion animals, either we buy them or we save them from the street, we perpetuate the problem and contribute to more meat eating. To be really clean, we should refrain from having companion animals at all. I know having animals in the house has enriched my life enormously, and has taught my children many things as well, and they have been company in many lonely times. I know that I have never bought a cat, but always taken either from families who didn't know what to do with them, or from the street. BUT.... Every cat, one can per day- or its equivalent of home-made flesh dish. Think about it! What I mean is, things are not very clear-cut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 28, 2000 Report Share Posted October 28, 2000 << To be really clean, we should refrain from having companion animals at all...What I mean is, things are not very clear-cut.>> Excellent point! Although I am a pet owner (of a vegetarian rescue Greyhound from the race tracks), as my own lifestyle turned from vegetarianism to vegan, I began to question the general domestication of animals...and felt uncomfortable with many components of it. While this is not a discussion necessarily for this forum, nor is a question so easily answered, I must say that it is an interesting point to consider. Would it not be similar, if you turned the tables, to raising a young child as a meat-eater when they did not have the verbal or cognitive ability nor the physical independence to chose otherwise...something to think about...hmmm... Lisa Furman Cott Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2000 Report Share Posted October 29, 2000 Mr. Welsher, Your rationalle is difficult to justify, since you have apparantly not been able to understand that it is perfectly " natural " for dogs and cats to thrive on a vegetarian diet. Have you visited the VegePet or similar sites and read the Frequently Answered Questions section? Perhaps what you are trying to say is that it is not " typical " or " customary " for such pets to be vegetarian, which is certainly true. But as evidenced by all the empirical data and decades of generations of pets, this diet is appropriate, wholesome, and natural for their digistive systems. As to the concept of " forcing " them, I have put meat based food and the VegePet food in front of my dogs and also my cats and they have shown no preference! In fact, they are nowadays very enthusiastic about feeding time, much in contrast to my earlier pet experiences, where they showed more pickiness and boredom from even the " finest " meat based products. Finally, it is very important to factor in the explicit cruelty experienced by the " ingredient " animals of the non-vegetarian pet foods. How can any one (especially an ethical vegetarian) justify the status quo when it is both unnecessary and unhealthy. Although you might have had many pets come through your home, you have not made any attempt to evaluate the necessity of continuing the status quo, vis-a-vis meat-based diets for pets. This omission seems certainly tragic and perhaps hypocritical, if you are an ethical vegetarian. We vegetarians have often heard the old saw that " animals are natural hunters and killers, so we shouldn't impose any change on them " . But animals do a lot of things in their wild (i.e. undomesticated) state that we don't tolerate. For example, would any of us pet-owners tolerate one of our large dogs killing one of our small puppies? And don't we strive to refrain our pets from " marking " their territory in the house? We have the right and responsibility to create a more loving and less cruel world for our families, and including our pets. This is not just an abstract concept, but a current and vital cause. John Elliott Atlanta >> Subj: Re: Re: feeding companion animals Thu, 26 Oct 2000 8:03:34 AM Eastern Daylight Time PhilLand Susan,I agree with you wholeheartedly. We need to remember that compassion does not end with our personal concepts of ethics. The animals that we choose as companions are born with their own, G-d given nature, and with digestive systems much different than ours. Cats in particular, being more carnivore than omnivore, have different essential proteins from humans which drives their dietary needs. Compassion and concern means acceptance also. Acceptance of these animals natural state of existance and their place in our world. I feel that if we cannot accept these creatures for who and what they are, we should not be keeping them in our homes. Forcing them to live by standards so unnatural to them is not promoting peace and compassion in my opinion. I'm sure this will be an unpopular opinion, but Susan you are not alone in your concerns. For those who might be interested, I have a 19 year old cat (still kittenish after all these years), a cat of undetermined age and a 15 year old dog, and have had some 30-40 cats come through the house to get cleaned up on their way to good homes. The cats and dog are the only non-vegetarians in the house. My human kids have been veggie from birth. Phil Welsher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted October 29, 2000 Report Share Posted October 29, 2000 there is an alternative, and it is viable and sound. Information on Vegetarian cats and dogs can be found at http://vegancats.safeshopper.com/ or http://www.montanasky.net/vegepet My 4 cats and 3 dogs have been on the Vegepet for the past 11 years and are very happy and healthy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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