Debating with Carnivores *sigh*

[Guest guest]

Hello. I've been lurking among the group for a long time now, listening and

learning more than anything else, but now I have a situation I'd like some

advice on.

 

Some of my friends tend to like picking on vegetarianism because they see it

as extreme. I have a sense of humor about most of what they say, but every

once in a while someone says something that makes me feel like I'm on the

defensive. This has happened several times in the past and always from the

same friends -- partially because they don't understand vegetarianism, and

partly because they just flat out don't like anyone telling them what they

should and shouldn't do. (Which is how they view PETA and similar groups --

preachy.) I don't even bring up their choices of food at all until they

start being critical of mine. They don't say it to hurt me -- as I said,

they are my friends and we get along just fine on any other topic of

discussion. But they are quite hostile against vegetarianism and animal

rights groups " telling them what to do " . ... But I don't tell them what to

do! They are the ones that bring it up being critical of vegetarianism. I

simply respond in my defense. So, anyway, the latest attack is on PETA's

" Milk Sucks " web page that they found. They called them freaks that were

going too far, so I spoke up agreeing that milk wasn't all it's cracked up

to be, and it's kinda gone downhill from there. (Again.)

 

So, the latest argument they've pulled out of their hat is this. " Did you

know that the average head of lettuce has BILLIONS of these little

microsopic worms (that feed on the lettuce). You know... little

micro-amimals or bugs. And no matter how you clean it. Those bugs/little

animals are going to be there. Even if some are killed after cleaning. " His

point is that veggies are just as dangerous in bacteria as animal products,

and that we are killing and eating animals that way, so there's no

difference in drinking bacteria laden milk or eating bigger animals. *sigh*

I am so tired of having to defend myself to these people, but I want them to

understand why I do what I do. They are the ones that keep bringing this

up, not me, but as long as they keep issuing challenges, I'm going to keep

butting heads and locking horns with them to defend myself and my choice.

So ... what do I say to this?

 

Mj

[Guest guest]

Wow...

 

Talk about deflection!!!

 

When I first began my vegetarian path..there were individuals within my social

group that insisted on a " battle of wits " so to speak over food...which is down

right silly--every human being is an intricate webwork--a universe unto its-

Self...therefore what may be right for them may not be right for you...tell

them to get out of that " group mentality " thinking (yeh, they may throw this

back at you--but deflection and projection work this way)AND that your choices

are your own, and they are merely attempting to chide you into telling you what

to do--and using double speak against you in order to achieve whatever

convoluted agenda they may have (whether consciously or not...and it wouldn't

be a tremendous leap in logic to submit they are NOT very conscious--you ARE

what you eat--hah, how can they be with all of that dead flesh weighing them

down)...

 

Food isn't a debate...it's a choice and they can either just accept it (and

you!) or not....

 

When people ask the reason for my vegetarian lifestyle...and so few do,

actually....I say there are many reasons both ethical as well as health related

and I leave it at that....no one pushes it past that thus far...but if they do,

well--I have a background in physiology and, I take the " it's my choice, and

I'm not judging yours, so refrain from judging mine " stance....

 

On a kinder, gentler note...I do enjoy the philosophy that fruits and veggies

are such wonderful colors in order to attract consumption...this serves a dual

purpose: a. it helps them propagate--allowing room for more to flourish, and,

seeds are not digested in the human digestive tract, they are passed out

through the body and fecal matter (ideally--for now we are quite a toxic

species) provides a " fertilizing " effect, and voila...the beginning of the life

cycle begins once again....)...and b. it nourishes our species...Mata Nature

works wonders that way....the violence is limited....in this practice...yah,

sure, microscopic organisms or worms or whatever share fruites and veggies with

their human counterparts, and, perhaps, they often become a part of the human

digestive process (blah, but oh well)...no one ever said that one could

completely eradicate violence (even Gandhi realized this---but he prompted that

we should keep it as close to ground zero as possible----even the Sun is

violent considering it literally pressurizes and pounds hydrogen into helium---

or it could be the reverse--but you get my drift---however, the Sun is also

life giving---eating animals, in my view is not life giving--the body must work

harder to digest that form of protein---and there is much more to this....but

I've gone on enough already...)....

 

Such a lovelier process than the slaughter houses...I wonder if any of your

" friends " have ever visited one of those horrific places...

 

Anyhow....

 

I hope this has been of some help

 

Slante chugat,

 

Kat

[Guest guest]

Mj:

 

You wrote: . They are the ones that keep bringing this

> up, not me, but as long as they keep issuing challenges, I'm going to keep

> butting heads and locking horns with them to defend myself and my choice.

> So ... what do I say to this?

 

 

It sounds as if you may have some folks who are baiting you on purpose.

Never a fair tactic in communications. I'm not sure you have much of a

chance of being heard by the folks you mention. And, I'm pretty sure it has

nothing to do with these folks being carnivores.

 

My daughter is a vegetarian. The rest of the family is not. I signed on

here to learn more so that I could support her because I both love and

respect her. Those who openly bait you certainly show no respect for you.

Perhaps the issue to address is the respect issue and not the vegetarian

issue. Without being respected, you have no chance of being heard.

 

Best Wishes,

Sue

[Guest guest]

MJ,

 

I agree with Sue: with friends like that, who needs enemies? They

sound very cruel. Something deeper is going on here than just a

disagreement about the merits of vegetarianism. Are these people your

friends because you went to school together, and so now, even though

you've all gone different ways, you still try to hang together?

 

I speak as someone who has had to learn the hard way (OK, maybe more

than once!) how to move on when a friendship didn't grow in a mutually

satisfying way.

 

It is possible to respectfully disagree. Everyone on this list has

friends or family members who are not vegetarian. That doesn't mean we

stop being friends or family. But, any " friend " who consistently baits

you is no friend.

 

My opinion, maybe not even worth $0.02,

 

Liz

[Guest guest]

Thanks to all for the suggestions on handling my " debate with carnivores "

post. I think the thing that was bugging me the most about my friends' most

recent arguments against PETA was that they have the nerve to keep bringing

it up in front of me, knowing full well that I'm vegetarian. And the common

thread in the suggestions I received seemed to point to a lack of respect.

So, I realized at that point, that what I was feeling was exactly that -- a

lack of respect from people that I consider my friends. These arguments

have been periodically cropping up for the past five years with us. We are

a group of gaming friends, my lifestyle drastically differs from that of my

friends sometimes. (Put it this way, ... if we were to be cast as the new

" Friends " tv show, I would be Pheobe, and they would fill the other roles.

Hehe.) I am the environmentalist, homeschooling, Pagan-mom, hippie-nut

among us. ... We really are good friends, but there are four friends in

particular that tend to be very cynical of " save-the-worlders " . I usually

have a sense of humor about our differences and can dish it right back at

them, but each time this particular topic crops up it seems to get more

heated than the last. The last time it happened I did ask them to just stop

bringing it up if they couldn't respect my choice as a personal thing. Yet

they brought it up again anyway.

 

So, this time I told them it wasn't about vegetarianism, it was about

respect. I reminded them that I was not the one that continually started

these arguments. And I reminded them that I didn't criticize their eating

habits and ethics, and asked them to refrain from criticizing mine. I don't

get upset when they eat meat, and I don't " preach " my values at them, but I

do explain why I see vegetarianism as more healthy and harmonious when they

insist on bringing it up in debate. All I want is for them to accept it as

a valid, personal choice, rather than poo-pooing it as " birdseed and grass "

as they do. Anyway, the good news is that one of them has already

apologized and proposed to the others to not mention it again, and two other

friends in our group that have supported me in the past are sympathetic and

telling me that I did the right thing. So, I hope the other three come

around, too. If they don't then I guess I will just have to accept that our

paths have become too different to be able to get along anymore. *sigh*

These things are never easy, but I do thank you all for your wisdom. It

matched my gut instinct perfectly, ... I guess I just needed to hear it from

someone else to be sure.

 

Mj

[Guest guest]

That's too bad about your friends being so argumentative. What would happen

if you simply told them that this line of questioning really bothers you?

Friends are supposed to respect one another, it's not like you are doing

anything unethical or illegal. Maybe it's time to remind them of that.

 

Sharon