Guest guest Posted April 5, 2001 Report Share Posted April 5, 2001 I do feel I have to reply to this one... all of the ideas you have for socialization are great... for kids who are homeschooled, unschooled OR public schooled. All children should be around a variety of people, not just their own age, race, religion, etc. You make no points for homeschool here, just a good, happy, involved family. It is also incredibly important to realize that children need role models other than yourself and your husband, be it clergy, aunts and uncles, school teachers, or someone else entirely. You want your children to " pick up on your values nine hours a day " , and that is understandable, and for a young child, it's acceptable. Most homeschool families make it to the teen or pre-teen ages, then many fall apart. You simply cannot be everything to a teenage child, and they don't want you to be. You also cannot provide the resources (unless you are wealthy) that a public or private school can offer. You also must realize that you are biased towards subjects that interest you... your child may be the next great nuclear physicist and you (and the world) will never know it because you dislike math and think it's a waste of time to go beyond what he or she will use in every day life. Yes, most parents can provide basic skills, and even send their kids to music or dancing lessons for extra curricular fun and learning. But you cannot equal the mind expanding experiences of give and take with children their own age, and wonderful life-enriching teachers (yes they do exist). My older daughter has had 3 wonderful teachers in previous years, who I am still in touch with, they are like family. She is in 7th grade now. She had 2 years with teachers who I really thought should have quit years ago, they were burned out and at the end of their patience, with no creativity or love for the job, and we were glad to see them out of our lives! I am incredibly involved with her schools, and her extra-curricular activities. I think that's much more important than forcing " my values on them 9 hours a day " . She has absorbed many, many of my values, and is a very strong, independent and happy child. Life style and learning methods make a huge difference when you homeschool, as does location -- are you near other homeschoolers? Do you socialize with other adults who are close to your children? Can you afford to have them attend art, music, math, swimming or other lessons? If you don't know of a subject, are you going to let them run with it and learn as much as they can, or are you going to learn it and guide them? Do you have a guitar, and play it for them, thinking this is the music course? Putting something under a microscope isn't one of your brilliant ideas, it's common science and after age 8 or so, is more fun with other children, not with you, and while you can read the book too, maybe that teacher has more experience, or really loves her job and can instill that love into some of the children. Counting change at a grocery store isn't something only homeschooled children do, nor is learning fractions by cooking with Mom. I think many children enter school much too soon. I would like to see all children staying home until around 8 or 9, at that point they have reached a maturity that allows them to stand solid on their own ground when faced with that " peer pressure " . Having said that, I still know from personal experience that a child from a strong family with good values will not feel " severely pressured " to give in to anything, but a frustrated homeschooled child will give in twice as fast because he or she feels different, and not accepted. It really comes down to strong values and a healthy balance, not how many hours you spend together a day. I'm sure that many homeschooled children are happy with their background, maybe the percentage is as high as that of public or privately schooled children who are happy with their background. There isn't one answer. That was much longer than I intended, and way off topic. Feel free to email me offline if you want to continue this thread. Linda, I owe you an email, I'll try to answer tomorrow, I haven't forgotten! HTH Regards, warmth, blessings, Karen > > Renee Jean [renee] > Wednesday, April 04, 2001 2:20 PM > > Re: Homeschooling > > > Just thought I would share my opinion on socialization. I > think kids in a > same age classroom miss out on so much productive > socialization. The only > people they truly socialize with is age mates. They tend to > be severely > pressured into whatever is " in " at the moment and they don't > get to strive > higher than the behavior that surrounds them. When you home > school you can > have outings to a senior citizen home and hear them tell of > " the good ole > days " or you can go to an ethnic restaurant and learn > something of another > culture, you can go to the zoo when it is not jam packed with > other kids and > truly ask questions of the guides. The ideas are endless! > The thing I like > best is I get to truly know my kids. I like them to get to > pick up on my > values nine hours a day instead of the values that are > presented in a static > classroom. One more thing I would like to mention is how helpful home > schooling is to the truly advanced or the truly " slow > learners " it can be so > customized to what an individual child needs instead of the > middle of the > road average child. I can understand wanting some free time > though! > > My cent and 1/2 > Renee > - > <miapotato > > Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:47 AM > Re: Homeschooling > > > > I have no idea about home schooling ? I don't understand > it really, I > think > > social interaction is important, Yeah, there is gonna be > some ugly things > > they see but ,we have to filter out the bad and inforce the > good. Plus I > like > > the idea of getting some time to myself to Volunteer and > attend Veggie > > outings and do some other stuff (reguarding veggies) that > arent ok for > kids > > .... mine are 12 ,8 & 4 ,so maybe as they get older I feel this way > more... > > They need to become there own people away from our > influence(not to far) > and > > delevop there own idea's and feelings..... just my 2cents...... > > Mia > > > > > > > > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the > VRG website at > http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for > families go to > http://www.vrg.org/family. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 5, 2001 Report Share Posted April 5, 2001 I am not sure how to respond to this so I am going to just respond from my heart. You obviously feel as passionately about your subject as I do about mine. I believe we all change and progress through our lives. My fondest dream when I was a child was to grow up and teach in the public school. As a young mother I looked forward to sending my precious son to school to have his mind filled with knowledge that would serve him through out his life. His first year of school passed with a number of problems one being his teacher had a nervous breakdown in front of the classroom along with him bringing home any number of vulgar words to ask me what they meant. That summer I thought what a duzy we had a really bad stroke of luck but I know there are wonderful teachers out there. Year two came along. He was blessed with a teacher of twenty years (with 32 students) who was brilliant with children. Within the first two six weeks they began having bomb threats. I was called in for conferences because my son was a problem to the class because he was bored with his work. I watched my bright sensitive child shrink further and further into a shell. He had very little self esteem and he found no joy in getting up and getting ready for a day he found nothing in which he would find pleasure. Then came the day they had to have a permanent police officer to patrol the ELEMENTARY school campus. That was his final year in public school. I have struggled along the way to provide the best education possible and I am still learning but I got my sweet child back and he is blossoming into a brilliant young man. He and his school age sister have always been beyond the " norm " so I don't worry about him falling behind. We test them every year with the same basic skills test as the public schools just to make me feel safe. Do I shelter him? From some things yes. Do I stifle him? No. He is allowed to do more than he ever would in a school all day. There are so many resources out there that you COULD provide on a modest budget just as much and more than a conventional school. It just takes research. Some children may flourish better in a traditional school setting. That is what is so beautiful about the freedom of our country. I never say never anymore. There was a time in my life when I would have NEVER thought of becoming vegetarian but I have grown and seen the true blessings in that way of life just as I have found such joy in home schooling. It seems you found something offending about the sharing of my values through the day. All I was saying is what a true joy I find it to share my beliefs, and discoveries with my child everyday instead of someone else getting that pleasure. It is a rough world and I would have them experience the joy and innocence of childhood as long as they can. They will enter into the world on their on soon enough. I just wanted to tell you I have nothing against professional teachers or schools for that matter just what they have on a general rule deteriorated into. Many blessings in your journeys, Renee - " Karen L. Thurston " <Karen Wednesday, April 04, 2001 9:07 PM RE: Homeschooling -- off topic > I do feel I have to reply to this one... all of the ideas you have for > socialization are great... for kids who are homeschooled, unschooled OR > public schooled. All children should be around a variety of people, not just > their own age, race, religion, etc. You make no points for homeschool here, > just a good, happy, involved family. > > It is also incredibly important to realize that children need role models > other than yourself and your husband, be it clergy, aunts and uncles, school > teachers, or someone else entirely. You want your children to " pick up on > your values nine hours a day " , and that is understandable, and for a young > child, it's acceptable. Most homeschool families make it to the teen or > pre-teen ages, then many fall apart. You simply cannot be everything to a > teenage child, and they don't want you to be. You also cannot provide the > resources (unless you are wealthy) that a public or private school can > offer. You also must realize that you are biased towards subjects that > interest you... your child may be the next great nuclear physicist and you > (and the world) will never know it because you dislike math and think it's a > waste of time to go beyond what he or she will use in every day life. Yes, > most parents can provide basic skills, and even send their kids to music or > dancing lessons for extra curricular fun and learning. But you cannot equal > the mind expanding experiences of give and take with children their own age, > and wonderful life-enriching teachers (yes they do exist). My older daughter > has had 3 wonderful teachers in previous years, who I am still in touch > with, they are like family. She is in 7th grade now. She had 2 years with > teachers who I really thought should have quit years ago, they were burned > out and at the end of their patience, with no creativity or love for the > job, and we were glad to see them out of our lives! I am incredibly involved > with her schools, and her extra-curricular activities. I think that's much > more important than forcing " my values on them 9 hours a day " . She has > absorbed many, many of my values, and is a very strong, independent and > happy child. > > Life style and learning methods make a huge difference when you homeschool, > as does location -- are you near other homeschoolers? Do you socialize with > other adults who are close to your children? Can you afford to have them > attend art, music, math, swimming or other lessons? If you don't know of a > subject, are you going to let them run with it and learn as much as they > can, or are you going to learn it and guide them? Do you have a guitar, and > play it for them, thinking this is the music course? Putting something under > a microscope isn't one of your brilliant ideas, it's common science and > after age 8 or so, is more fun with other children, not with you, and while > you can read the book too, maybe that teacher has more experience, or really > loves her job and can instill that love into some of the children. Counting > change at a grocery store isn't something only homeschooled children do, nor > is learning fractions by cooking with Mom. > > I think many children enter school much too soon. I would like to see all > children staying home until around 8 or 9, at that point they have reached a > maturity that allows them to stand solid on their own ground when faced with > that " peer pressure " . Having said that, I still know from personal > experience that a child from a strong family with good values will not feel > " severely pressured " to give in to anything, but a frustrated homeschooled > child will give in twice as fast because he or she feels different, and not > accepted. It really comes down to strong values and a healthy balance, not > how many hours you spend together a day. > > I'm sure that many homeschooled children are happy with their background, > maybe the percentage is as high as that of public or privately schooled > children who are happy with their background. There isn't one answer. > > That was much longer than I intended, and way off topic. Feel free to email > me offline if you want to continue this thread. Linda, I owe you an email, > I'll try to answer tomorrow, I haven't forgotten! HTH > > Regards, warmth, blessings, > Karen > > > > > Renee Jean [renee] > > Wednesday, April 04, 2001 2:20 PM > > > > Re: Homeschooling > > > > > > Just thought I would share my opinion on socialization. I > > think kids in a > > same age classroom miss out on so much productive > > socialization. The only > > people they truly socialize with is age mates. They tend to > > be severely > > pressured into whatever is " in " at the moment and they don't > > get to strive > > higher than the behavior that surrounds them. When you home > > school you can > > have outings to a senior citizen home and hear them tell of > > " the good ole > > days " or you can go to an ethnic restaurant and learn > > something of another > > culture, you can go to the zoo when it is not jam packed with > > other kids and > > truly ask questions of the guides. The ideas are endless! > > The thing I like > > best is I get to truly know my kids. I like them to get to > > pick up on my > > values nine hours a day instead of the values that are > > presented in a static > > classroom. One more thing I would like to mention is how helpful home > > schooling is to the truly advanced or the truly " slow > > learners " it can be so > > customized to what an individual child needs instead of the > > middle of the > > road average child. I can understand wanting some free time > > though! > > > > My cent and 1/2 > > Renee > > - > > <miapotato > > > > Wednesday, April 04, 2001 10:47 AM > > Re: Homeschooling > > > > > > > I have no idea about home schooling ? I don't understand > > it really, I > > think > > > social interaction is important, Yeah, there is gonna be > > some ugly things > > > they see but ,we have to filter out the bad and inforce the > > good. Plus I > > like > > > the idea of getting some time to myself to Volunteer and > > attend Veggie > > > outings and do some other stuff (reguarding veggies) that > > arent ok for > > kids > > > .... mine are 12 ,8 & 4 ,so maybe as they get older I feel this way > > more... > > > They need to become there own people away from our > > influence(not to far) > > and > > > delevop there own idea's and feelings..... just my 2cents...... > > > Mia > > > > > > > > > > > > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the > > VRG website at > > http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for > > families go to > > http://www.vrg.org/family. > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2001 Report Share Posted April 6, 2001 In a message dated 4/6/2001 6:08:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, wdaggerhart writes: > > Sorry for the length, and I'll get off my soapbox now. I just hate to see > assumptions and declarations of failure being made against homeschooling. I > will defend it as surely as I will defend assumptions and declarations of > failure made against vegetarianism. > Wow! Mj that was just so beautiful. We are still trying to make the decision of whether or not to homeschool our 16 month old. I was so bored in school. In elementary school I was one of the " gifted " children, I was very much ahead of the rest of my class. The school seperated six of us and formed our own little reading group because the reading books that the rest of our peers was beneath our level, in third grade, I had to go to the fourth grade classes because third grade was too slow. By the time middle school came along they put all of us into the same classes as everyone else, because they didn't want to make special provisions for us. I became so bored! I stopped paying attention, I either knew the stuff or wasn't interested in learning it, by the time high school came along I was so bored that I slept through my classes and stopped learning. I am the type of person that can't read something that doesn't interest me or learn about something that I have really don't care about. When something does interest me (right now it is breastfeeding, attachment parenting and vaccinations) I devour information on it, I almost become obsessed. I am concerned about my son not learning the stuff that other people think he needs to know, I don't want him to be stifled like I was. I still do have my concerns about homeschooling, but, the concerns about sending him to public school far outweigh the concerns about homeschooling. Sara Colin's Ap Mama We haven't inherited the earth, we are only borrowing it from our children. Come see us at <A HREF= " http://members.tripod.com/colinsapmama/ " >http://members.tripod.com/colinsa\ pmama/</A> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2001 Report Share Posted April 6, 2001 Wow. There are alot of uninformed opinions in this one. My response is rather long, but I have a lot to say. And feel it can't be done by taking shortcuts. This is nothing personal, but to say " there is not one answer " , and yet to repeatedly say so many negative and untrue things about homeschooling .... Well, let's just see if we can dispel some myths by comparing homeschooling to vegetarianism, because they really do have a lot in common. And standing up for what you believe in through vegetarianism is something we all on this list can agree on, right? Traditional meat eaters who are uninformed about vegetarian facts have a tendancy to immediately assume a person cannot grow strong and healthy without eating meat. Traditional school supporters who are uninformed about homeschooling facts have a tendancy to immediately assume a child cannot possibly gain vast amounts of knowledge or healthy socialization without going to school. Neither statement is true, and to assume such things and point fingers is going to make both the vegetarian and the homeschooler indignant. People become vegetarians either because their family was vegetarian and they grew up eating healthy stuff, or because they dislike something about eating meat -- whether it's health reasons, animal rights reasons, or whatever. People become homeschoolers either because their family operated on homeschooling and they grew up being self-motivated learners, or because they dislike something about going to school -- whether it's safety reasons, child and family rights reasons, or whatever. Both were dissatisfied with the result of the traditional choices. Both chose what they saw as a healthier alternative. Is there something wrong with that? I don't think so because unless we follow our gut instinct in some of these cases and become willing to try new ideas and ethics we will never grow as individuals or as a society. Should vegetarians and homeschoolers push their " newfangled " ideas of an " old twist " (neither vegetarianism nor homeschooling are really " new " concepts) on other people? In my opinion, no. Should meat eaters and system schoolers criticize the less mainstream alternatives just because they wouldn't want to do it themselves, personally think they are " flighty " , or think they are fine without changing how they do things? No. Should they assume untrue truths without educating themselves to the facts on the alternatives and seeing what it's like before they open their mouths to say " can't possibly " , " must realize " , and " shouldn't " ? No. In fact, someday, the alternatives may become mainstream if it speaks for itself in producing healthy well-balanced children. But someone has to start aiming for better somewhere if they are unsatisfied with the results in the traditional. So homeschoolers don't feel unsatisfied with the system, and they quit using it. Just like vegetarians don't feel satisified with meat, and they quit using it. After they quit using it, it's very difficult to find good things to say about it, obviously, or they wouldn't have quit. But if you continue to use it, then you obviously see nothing wrong with it. It's personal preference. If someone likes meat and likes public schooling, then those are their choices. No one has the right to stomp on the choices of another individual to try to make them feel guilty about it by preaching or damning their beliefs, lifestyles, and habits -- whether they are traditional or alternative. I've seen both sides of these arguments tear the opposition to shreds -- each calling the other unethical, accusing each other of harming their children, missing something important, etc. It becomes somewhat of a religion because both subjects are something people who practice vegetarianism and homeschooling feel very passionately about. It becomes political at that point, rather than just a heartfelt conviction, when all that we all -really- want is happy, healthy children, and happy healthy lives for ourselves. We can agree on that. ... Right? Now, since we are sharing personal experiences that influenced our decisions, my mother was a school teacher in both public and private schools, so I too hold nothing against professional teachers. I myself worked as her assistant because I saw how overburdended she was and it was the only way I could spend time with her -- to help her grade tests and record those grades while she made lesson plans, etc. In college I went on to do the same thing for three different professors. And I tutored a dyslexic freshman in English during my sophmore year at my professor's request because he was a bright kid in math, but was failing English and would never get his engineering degree without being good in all things rather than just what he was naturally talented at. I have attended six schools myself, public and private three each. I had some excellent teachers who really did want to see the students succeed. I had other teachers who were there because they had to be and clearly were burnt out and disliked the work they gave out every bit as much as the students did. It was a roll of the dice as to which ones you would get. I have been to drug infested and violent inner city schools, and I have been to drug infested racist private schools -- the only difference being how openly displayed the negative socialization aspect were and the average income of the students' parents. In both cases, I was what most people would consider a school success -- cheerleader, honor roll, drama, band, class treasurer, and homecoming nominee. But you know what? I still hated school. I -hated- sitting for long hours in that desk listening to a lecture I'd already read the night before. I hated having to spend 8 hours in a classroom doing paperwork, and then spending another hour or two at home or the library doing homework on something that held no interest for me whatsoever. I hated having someone tell me that my ideas weren't on the plans or were out of bounds. I hated having to wait until after school to have fun learning what I WANTED to learn. Oh boy I had some of the greatest friends! But school sucked, I'm sorry. And most adults and kids would have to give me an understanding nod of agreement with that feeling. How many children bounce out of bed after that first month of kindergarten, still excited to attend another day of learning, and come running down the stairs first thing in the morning because they can't wait to see what today holds? In my opinion, -that- is what system schooling has killed. And that is enough for me to try to find something better. Learning should be fun. Learning should lead a child toward being able to accomplish -their- dreams -- not someone else's. Learning should be tailored to fit the child's needs, not the child tailored to fit the board of education's needs. And learning is not something that can be divided into subjects or confined to a particular time of day in a particular building by only certified people. Certified doesn't always mean qualified, and quality doesn't always come with a certificate. No one certified you to become a parent, did they? Does that mean you're not qualified to parent your child? Wouldn't you feel indignant if someone accused you of not being able to provide for your child, just because you don't own a mere scrap of paper reminding you of the hours you spent studying how to be a parent? The parent -is- qualified to provide learning materials and methods up through high school level in -most- cases. Anything a parent doesn't know can be found with a little research -- either through books, private tutors, community organizations, friends, family, or apprenticeships. Should the child need more and want to become the next great nuclear scientist, then he should continue to follow his interests to college -- high school, jr. high, and elementary are hardly the places to learn that kind of indepth stuff in practice, anyway, right? And yes, colleges -do- accept homeschooled students -- even ivy league schools will accept them. So, ... again, please don't assume that homeschoo l parents try to be the world to their children, can't possibly provide what they need, and don't realize what they're depriving them of by keeping them home and smothering them with our values. It's really very unfair. The family that inspired me to homeschool had five children ages 13-infant, and it's watching them that convinced me this was the way to go for us. I have a friend who unschooled his entire life and is now graduating college -- he didn't learn to read until he was 11 and says the school labelled him with a learning disability for being slow when he had to test, but now he is a fabulous writer and devours books because, as he says, " once you get the bug, nothing can stop you from learning " . He is grateful he was allowed to go at his own pace. I have about four homeschooled friends, actually, and the only bad thing they would say about it is what I have said before -- parents shouldn't use it to try to control their children, unschoolers need to be sure that they balance the freedom with responsibility in some way, and school at homers are the quickest to burn out and lack luster, just as in traditional schools. And I will personally add that, yes, it is a time sacrifice -- but then to me, parenting is a sacrifice anyway, so there's no line drawn between being a mentor to my child and being a parent too -- they are one in the same. Homeschoolers really do have fun, friends, freedom, and flexibility, while achieving the same, or better, results than the traditional methods of education, in spite of what naysayers think. ... And vegetarians really do enjoy what they eat, have plenty of variety, can become thriving world class athletes, and produce healthy babies, in spite of what naysayers think. Honest. Really they do. Sorry for the length, and I'll get off my soapbox now. I just hate to see assumptions and declarations of failure being made against homeschooling. I will defend it as surely as I will defend assumptions and declarations of failure made against vegetarianism. Peace, Mj Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 6, 2001 Report Share Posted April 6, 2001 Thank you. I really don't like arguing about homeschooling, so I usually only post stuff like this outside of homeschool interest groups when I feel it's necessary to contradict information that is based mostly on assumption or opinion -- er, rather like when I feel the need to contradict the assumption that vegetarians eat only birdseed and grass among a non-vegetarian group. I usually keep quiet on this list because I am listening and learning more than having anything to offer new and interesting so far. ... I will keep any future comments on homeschooling to myself, I promise, because I know this off-topic thread is probably tedious to many on the list. I'm sorry, if I offended anyone -- what I said what meant to shed information on some misconceptions and personal experience, not to insult. (I also apologize for not proofing. Doh! *chuckle* Shame on me.) Anyway, I can relate to your experience with the gifted program, and the opposite -- the dyslexic student that I was reluctant to tutor that year in college blew my mind on our first meeting. I was only a year older than him and a student myself, and I didn't want to be a teacher after seeing what my mom went through teaching jr. high and high school, with long hours, tons of paperwork, sassy kids, and school politics. No wonder many teachers tend to burn out -- they burn the candle at both ends, they really do! But I agreed because my professor had confidence in me, and I hated to think that saying no might cause someone to lose out on a needed credit. Our first meeting, the freshman looked me in the eye before I could even sit down and said, " I'm not stupid -- the class just goes too fast for me. If you can talk to me and slow it down for me in my own way, I'll get it. And once I've got it, I've got it for good. " I will never forget the honest look on his face and the emphatic need he felt to immediately tell me that he wasn't stupid. Apparently, he had been made to feel stupid in the past and wanted to make sure that didn't happen here. ... So while classrooms may work just fine for some, there are others who just aren't satisified with it, for whatever reasons. But there are solutions outside the typical classroom that do work just as well, and homeschooling is one of them. It is really a shame when people assume school is necessary, the same way that many people assume meat is necessary, without really gathering enough information about it to gain an understanding. And homeschoolers and vegetarians do tend to both get a lot of the same type of unecessary flack from the mainstream community. ... If that makes any sense. ... That was my main point in making that post. If you weren't, and still aren't, satisified with what traditional schooling has to offer, and if you feel it's worth a try, then I say continue reading and finding out as much as you can about it. If it's not for you, then you can always stop and enroll him elsewhere with something that feels more comfortable. Everyone has to weigh their own personal advantages and disadvantanges to make wise choices for their own families -- whether it's health or education or whatever else you hold dear to your heart. Mj colinsapmama <colinsapmama Friday, April 06, 2001 9:30 AM Re: Homeschooling -- off topic >In a message dated 4/6/2001 6:08:12 AM Pacific Daylight Time, >wdaggerhart writes: > > >> >> Sorry for the length, and I'll get off my soapbox now. I just hate to see >> assumptions and declarations of failure being made against homeschooling. I >> will defend it as surely as I will defend assumptions and declarations of >> failure made against vegetarianism. >> > >Wow! Mj that was just so beautiful. We are still trying to make the >decision of whether or not to homeschool our 16 month old. I was so bored in >school. In elementary school I was one of the " gifted " children, I was ver y >much ahead of the rest of my class. The school seperated six of us and >formed our own little reading group because the reading books that the rest >of our peers was beneath our level, in third grade, I had to go to the fourth >grade classes because third grade was too slow. By the time middle school >came along they put all of us into the same classes as everyone else, because >they didn't want to make special provisions for us. I became so bored! I >stopped paying attention, I either knew the stuff or wasn't interested in >learning it, by the time high school came along I was so bored that I slept >through my classes and stopped learning. I am the type of person that can't >read something that doesn't interest me or learn about something that I have >really don't care about. When something does interest me (right now it is >breastfeeding, attachment parenting and vaccinations) I devour information on >it, I almost become obsessed. I am concerned about my son not learning the >stuff that other people think he needs to know, I don't want him to be >stifled like I was. I still do have my concerns about homeschooling, but, >the concerns about sending him to public school far outweigh the concerns >about homeschooling. > >Sara >Colin's Ap Mama >We haven't inherited the earth, we are only borrowing it from our children. >Come see us at <A HREF= " http://members.tripod.com/colinsapmama/ " >http://members.tripod.com/col insapmama/</A> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 7, 2001 Report Share Posted April 7, 2001 I was homeschooled, and know of other kids who were also, and now as a mom I see some of my kids friends being homeschooled. I said negative things about homeschools because there are negatives. Yes, you can find what you need to do the job, and do it well, but some parents DON'T. I certainly didn't post an " uninformed opinion " . Some kids love being homeschooled and really thrive. Others don't. When I responded to the post the first time, it was because a parent who was homeschooling was pointing out the great things they do, such as visit nursing homes, and a lot of other activities, and I responded that this isn't something JUST homeschooled kids do, I do this with my kids all the time. Many homeschooled kids are mature, responsible, intelligent, etc... so are kids who go to public school! Many people assume (as my parents still do) that if you love your kids enough, and have enough patience, you will homeschool them. That's just not true. I love my kids, I give them uninterrupted, quality time when I'm not working and they're not busy with their activities. I don't want to homeschool them. They are thriving, healthy, and working past grade and age levels in many subjects. Whey they need supplemental materials or attention, either because they are bored, or not quite " getting it " or whatever, I am always there, and always working with the schools. Karen > > wes daggerhart [wdaggerhart] > Friday, April 06, 2001 8:45 AM > > Re: Homeschooling -- off topic > > > Wow. There are alot of uninformed opinions in this one. My > response is > rather long, but I have a lot to say. And feel it can't be > done by taking > shortcuts. This is nothing personal, but to say " there is > not one answer " , > and yet to repeatedly say so many negative and untrue things about > homeschooling .... Well, let's just see if we can dispel > some myths by > comparing homeschooling to vegetarianism, because they really > do have a lot > in common. And standing up for what you believe in through > vegetarianism is > something we all on this list can agree on, right? > > Traditional meat eaters who are uninformed about vegetarian > facts have a > tendancy to immediately assume a person cannot grow strong and healthy > without eating meat. Traditional school supporters who are > uninformed about > homeschooling facts have a tendancy to immediately assume a > child cannot > possibly gain vast amounts of knowledge or healthy > socialization without > going to school. Neither statement is true, and to assume > such things and > point fingers is going to make both the vegetarian and the > homeschooler > indignant. > > People become vegetarians either because their family was > vegetarian and > they grew up eating healthy stuff, or because they dislike > something about > eating meat -- whether it's health reasons, animal rights reasons, or > whatever. People become homeschoolers either because their > family operated > on homeschooling and they grew up being self-motivated > learners, or because > they dislike something about going to school -- whether it's > safety reasons, > child and family rights reasons, or whatever. Both were > dissatisfied with > the result of the traditional choices. Both chose what they saw as a > healthier alternative. Is there something wrong with that? I > don't think so > because unless we follow our gut instinct in some of these > cases and become > willing to try new ideas and ethics we will never grow as > individuals or as > a society. > > Should vegetarians and homeschoolers push their " newfangled " > ideas of an > " old twist " (neither vegetarianism nor homeschooling are really " new " > concepts) on other people? In my opinion, no. Should meat eaters and > system schoolers criticize the less mainstream alternatives > just because > they wouldn't want to do it themselves, personally think they > are " flighty " , > or think they are fine without changing how they do things? > No. Should > they assume untrue truths without educating themselves to the > facts on the > alternatives and seeing what it's like before they open their > mouths to say > " can't possibly " , " must realize " , and " shouldn't " ? No. In > fact, someday, > the alternatives may become mainstream if it speaks for > itself in producing > healthy well-balanced children. But someone has to start > aiming for better > somewhere if they are unsatisfied with the results in the > traditional. So > homeschoolers don't feel unsatisfied with the system, and > they quit using > it. Just like vegetarians don't feel satisified with meat, > and they quit > using it. After they quit using it, it's very difficult to > find good things > to say about it, obviously, or they wouldn't have quit. But > if you continue > to use it, then you obviously see nothing wrong with it. > It's personal > preference. If someone likes meat and likes public > schooling, then those > are their choices. No one has the right to stomp on the > choices of another > individual to try to make them feel guilty about it by > preaching or damning > their beliefs, lifestyles, and habits -- whether they are > traditional or > alternative. I've seen both sides of these arguments tear > the opposition to > shreds -- each calling the other unethical, accusing each > other of harming > their children, missing something important, etc. It becomes > somewhat of a > religion because both subjects are something people who practice > vegetarianism and homeschooling feel very passionately about. > It becomes > political at that point, rather than just a heartfelt > conviction, when all > that we all -really- want is happy, healthy children, and > happy healthy > lives for ourselves. We can agree on that. ... Right? > > Now, since we are sharing personal experiences that influenced our > decisions, my mother was a school teacher in both public and private > schools, so I too hold nothing against professional teachers. > I myself > worked as her assistant because I saw how overburdended she > was and it was > the only way I could spend time with her -- to help her grade > tests and > record those grades while she made lesson plans, etc. In > college I went on > to do the same thing for three different professors. And I tutored a > dyslexic freshman in English during my sophmore year at my professor's > request because he was a bright kid in math, but was failing > English and > would never get his engineering degree without being good in > all things > rather than just what he was naturally talented at. I have > attended six > schools myself, public and private three each. I had some excellent > teachers who really did want to see the students succeed. I had other > teachers who were there because they had to be and clearly > were burnt out > and disliked the work they gave out every bit as much as the > students did. > It was a roll of the dice as to which ones you would get. I > have been to > drug infested and violent inner city schools, and I have been to drug > infested racist private schools -- the only difference being > how openly > displayed the negative socialization aspect were and the > average income of > the students' parents. In both cases, I was what most people > would consider > a school success -- cheerleader, honor roll, drama, band, > class treasurer, > and homecoming nominee. But you know what? I still hated school. > I -hated- sitting for long hours in that desk listening to a > lecture I'd > already read the night before. I hated having to spend 8 hours in a > classroom doing paperwork, and then spending another hour or > two at home or > the library doing homework on something that held no interest for me > whatsoever. I hated having someone tell me that my ideas > weren't on the > plans or were out of bounds. I hated having to wait until > after school to > have fun learning what I WANTED to learn. Oh boy I had some > of the greatest > friends! But school sucked, I'm sorry. And most adults > and kids would > have to give me an understanding nod of agreement with that > feeling. How > many children bounce out of bed after that first month of > kindergarten, > still excited to attend another day of learning, and come > running down the > stairs first thing in the morning because they can't wait to > see what today > holds? In my opinion, -that- is what system schooling has > killed. And that > is enough for me to try to find something better. Learning > should be fun. > Learning should lead a child toward being able to accomplish -their- > dreams -- not someone else's. Learning should be tailored to fit the > child's needs, not the child tailored to fit the board of > education's needs. > And learning is not something that can be divided into > subjects or confined > to a particular time of day in a particular building by only certified > people. Certified doesn't always mean qualified, and quality > doesn't always > come with a certificate. No one certified you to become a > parent, did they? > Does that mean you're not qualified to parent your child? > Wouldn't you feel > indignant if someone accused you of not being able to provide for your > child, just because you don't own a mere scrap of paper > reminding you of the > hours you spent studying how to be a parent? The parent -is- > qualified to > provide learning materials and methods up through high school level > in -most- cases. Anything a parent doesn't know can be found > with a little > research -- either through books, private tutors, community > organizations, > friends, family, or apprenticeships. Should the child need > more and want to > become the next great nuclear scientist, then he should > continue to follow > his interests to college -- high school, jr. high, and > elementary are hardly > the places to learn that kind of indepth stuff in practice, > anyway, right? > And yes, colleges -do- accept homeschooled students -- even ivy league > schools will accept them. So, ... again, please don't assume > that homeschoo > l parents try to be the world to their children, can't > possibly provide what > they need, and don't realize what they're depriving them of > by keeping them > home and smothering them with our values. It's really very > unfair. The > family that inspired me to homeschool had five children ages > 13-infant, and > it's watching them that convinced me this was the way to go > for us. I have > a friend who unschooled his entire life and is now graduating > college -- he > didn't learn to read until he was 11 and says the school > labelled him with a > learning disability for being slow when he had to test, but > now he is a > fabulous writer and devours books because, as he says, " once > you get the > bug, nothing can stop you from learning " . He is grateful he > was allowed to > go at his own pace. I have about four homeschooled friends, > actually, and > the only bad thing they would say about it is what I have > said before -- > parents shouldn't use it to try to control their children, > unschoolers need > to be sure that they balance the freedom with responsibility > in some way, > and school at homers are the quickest to burn out and lack > luster, just as > in traditional schools. And I will personally add that, yes, > it is a time > sacrifice -- but then to me, parenting is a sacrifice anyway, > so there's no > line drawn between being a mentor to my child and being a > parent too -- they > are one in the same. > > Homeschoolers really do have fun, friends, freedom, and > flexibility, while > achieving the same, or better, results than the traditional methods of > education, in spite of what naysayers think. ... And > vegetarians really do > enjoy what they eat, have plenty of variety, can become > thriving world class > athletes, and produce healthy babies, in spite of what > naysayers think. > Honest. Really they do. > > Sorry for the length, and I'll get off my soapbox now. I > just hate to see > assumptions and declarations of failure being made against > homeschooling. I > will defend it as surely as I will defend assumptions and > declarations of > failure made against vegetarianism. > > Peace, > Mj > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 8, 2001 Report Share Posted April 8, 2001 You beautifully stated what I was trying to spit out. :)Thanks! Many Blessings! Renee - " wes daggerhart " <wdaggerhart Friday, April 06, 2001 7:44 AM Re: Homeschooling -- off topic > Wow. There are alot of uninformed opinions in this one. My response is > rather long, but I have a lot to say. And feel it can't be done by taking > shortcuts. This is nothing personal, but to say " there is not one answer " , > and yet to repeatedly say so many negative and untrue things about > homeschooling .... Well, let's just see if we can dispel some myths by > comparing homeschooling to vegetarianism, because they really do have a lot > in common. And standing up for what you believe in through vegetarianism is > something we all on this list can agree on, right? > > Traditional meat eaters who are uninformed about vegetarian facts have a > tendancy to immediately assume a person cannot grow strong and healthy > without eating meat. Traditional school supporters who are uninformed about > homeschooling facts have a tendancy to immediately assume a child cannot > possibly gain vast amounts of knowledge or healthy socialization without > going to school. Neither statement is true, and to assume such things and > point fingers is going to make both the vegetarian and the homeschooler > indignant. > > People become vegetarians either because their family was vegetarian and > they grew up eating healthy stuff, or because they dislike something about > eating meat -- whether it's health reasons, animal rights reasons, or > whatever. People become homeschoolers either because their family operated > on homeschooling and they grew up being self-motivated learners, or because > they dislike something about going to school -- whether it's safety reasons, > child and family rights reasons, or whatever. Both were dissatisfied with > the result of the traditional choices. Both chose what they saw as a > healthier alternative. Is there something wrong with that? I don't think so > because unless we follow our gut instinct in some of these cases and become > willing to try new ideas and ethics we will never grow as individuals or as > a society. > > Should vegetarians and homeschoolers push their " newfangled " ideas of an > " old twist " (neither vegetarianism nor homeschooling are really " new " > concepts) on other people? In my opinion, no. Should meat eaters and > system schoolers criticize the less mainstream alternatives just because > they wouldn't want to do it themselves, personally think they are " flighty " , > or think they are fine without changing how they do things? No. Should > they assume untrue truths without educating themselves to the facts on the > alternatives and seeing what it's like before they open their mouths to say > " can't possibly " , " must realize " , and " shouldn't " ? No. In fact, someday, > the alternatives may become mainstream if it speaks for itself in producing > healthy well-balanced children. But someone has to start aiming for better > somewhere if they are unsatisfied with the results in the traditional. So > homeschoolers don't feel unsatisfied with the system, and they quit using > it. Just like vegetarians don't feel satisified with meat, and they quit > using it. After they quit using it, it's very difficult to find good things > to say about it, obviously, or they wouldn't have quit. But if you continue > to use it, then you obviously see nothing wrong with it. It's personal > preference. If someone likes meat and likes public schooling, then those > are their choices. No one has the right to stomp on the choices of another > individual to try to make them feel guilty about it by preaching or damning > their beliefs, lifestyles, and habits -- whether they are traditional or > alternative. I've seen both sides of these arguments tear the opposition to > shreds -- each calling the other unethical, accusing each other of harming > their children, missing something important, etc. It becomes somewhat of a > religion because both subjects are something people who practice > vegetarianism and homeschooling feel very passionately about. It becomes > political at that point, rather than just a heartfelt conviction, when all > that we all -really- want is happy, healthy children, and happy healthy > lives for ourselves. We can agree on that. ... Right? > > Now, since we are sharing personal experiences that influenced our > decisions, my mother was a school teacher in both public and private > schools, so I too hold nothing against professional teachers. I myself > worked as her assistant because I saw how overburdended she was and it was > the only way I could spend time with her -- to help her grade tests and > record those grades while she made lesson plans, etc. In college I went on > to do the same thing for three different professors. And I tutored a > dyslexic freshman in English during my sophmore year at my professor's > request because he was a bright kid in math, but was failing English and > would never get his engineering degree without being good in all things > rather than just what he was naturally talented at. I have attended six > schools myself, public and private three each. I had some excellent > teachers who really did want to see the students succeed. I had other > teachers who were there because they had to be and clearly were burnt out > and disliked the work they gave out every bit as much as the students did. > It was a roll of the dice as to which ones you would get. I have been to > drug infested and violent inner city schools, and I have been to drug > infested racist private schools -- the only difference being how openly > displayed the negative socialization aspect were and the average income of > the students' parents. In both cases, I was what most people would consider > a school success -- cheerleader, honor roll, drama, band, class treasurer, > and homecoming nominee. But you know what? I still hated school. > I -hated- sitting for long hours in that desk listening to a lecture I'd > already read the night before. I hated having to spend 8 hours in a > classroom doing paperwork, and then spending another hour or two at home or > the library doing homework on something that held no interest for me > whatsoever. I hated having someone tell me that my ideas weren't on the > plans or were out of bounds. I hated having to wait until after school to > have fun learning what I WANTED to learn. Oh boy I had some of the greatest > friends! But school sucked, I'm sorry. And most adults and kids would > have to give me an understanding nod of agreement with that feeling. How > many children bounce out of bed after that first month of kindergarten, > still excited to attend another day of learning, and come running down the > stairs first thing in the morning because they can't wait to see what today > holds? In my opinion, -that- is what system schooling has killed. And that > is enough for me to try to find something better. Learning should be fun. > Learning should lead a child toward being able to accomplish -their- > dreams -- not someone else's. Learning should be tailored to fit the > child's needs, not the child tailored to fit the board of education's needs. > And learning is not something that can be divided into subjects or confined > to a particular time of day in a particular building by only certified > people. Certified doesn't always mean qualified, and quality doesn't always > come with a certificate. No one certified you to become a parent, did they? > Does that mean you're not qualified to parent your child? Wouldn't you feel > indignant if someone accused you of not being able to provide for your > child, just because you don't own a mere scrap of paper reminding you of the > hours you spent studying how to be a parent? The parent -is- qualified to > provide learning materials and methods up through high school level > in -most- cases. Anything a parent doesn't know can be found with a little > research -- either through books, private tutors, community organizations, > friends, family, or apprenticeships. Should the child need more and want to > become the next great nuclear scientist, then he should continue to follow > his interests to college -- high school, jr. high, and elementary are hardly > the places to learn that kind of indepth stuff in practice, anyway, right? > And yes, colleges -do- accept homeschooled students -- even ivy league > schools will accept them. So, ... again, please don't assume that homeschoo > l parents try to be the world to their children, can't possibly provide what > they need, and don't realize what they're depriving them of by keeping them > home and smothering them with our values. It's really very unfair. The > family that inspired me to homeschool had five children ages 13-infant, and > it's watching them that convinced me this was the way to go for us. I have > a friend who unschooled his entire life and is now graduating college -- he > didn't learn to read until he was 11 and says the school labelled him with a > learning disability for being slow when he had to test, but now he is a > fabulous writer and devours books because, as he says, " once you get the > bug, nothing can stop you from learning " . He is grateful he was allowed to > go at his own pace. I have about four homeschooled friends, actually, and > the only bad thing they would say about it is what I have said before -- > parents shouldn't use it to try to control their children, unschoolers need > to be sure that they balance the freedom with responsibility in some way, > and school at homers are the quickest to burn out and lack luster, just as > in traditional schools. And I will personally add that, yes, it is a time > sacrifice -- but then to me, parenting is a sacrifice anyway, so there's no > line drawn between being a mentor to my child and being a parent too -- they > are one in the same. > > Homeschoolers really do have fun, friends, freedom, and flexibility, while > achieving the same, or better, results than the traditional methods of > education, in spite of what naysayers think. ... And vegetarians really do > enjoy what they eat, have plenty of variety, can become thriving world class > athletes, and produce healthy babies, in spite of what naysayers think. > Honest. Really they do. > > Sorry for the length, and I'll get off my soapbox now. I just hate to see > assumptions and declarations of failure being made against homeschooling. I > will defend it as surely as I will defend assumptions and declarations of > failure made against vegetarianism. > > Peace, > Mj > > > > For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to http://www.vrg.org/family. > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.