Guest guest Posted March 26, 2000 Report Share Posted March 26, 2000 I stand corrected, thanks Carol for the cool links. If you can afford it Sucanat is the most vegan of sweeteners. According to abbot George Burke of the Holy Protection Orthodox Monastery. Author of my favorite cook book " Simply heavenly " [1400 vegan recipes]. Sucanat is granulated Sugar made by evaporating cane juice. It has all the nutrients of of the original cane as it is not refined. It has none of the negative qualities of refined sugar. And its very tasty without being sickly sweet. love P.B. >calicokten > > > honey >Sun, 26 Mar 2000 04:29:48 EST > ><< Bees don't die in the making of honey >> > >Actually, Paul, many people wouldn't agree with this statement. Here are >some links for anyone who is interested. >Carol > >Paragraphs 6-8 of http://www.pitt.edu/~hslst7/honey/honey.html ( " Honey is >not >vegan " ) discuss treatment of bees by factory bee farmers. > >Another good discussion is available at >http://www.vegsource.com/joanne/qahoney.htm ( " Is Honey Vegan? " ). > >Excerpt from http://enterprise.powerup.com.au/~kkaos/alpha1.html ( " Ethical >Consumption " ): > >* Bee products - pollen, honey, royal jelly, wax. Extraction of these >substances all leads to deprivation or damage to the insects. Sugar is >often >substituted for the stolen honey, bees legs are sometimes torn off in >pollen >collection. Bees wax is derived from the honey comb meant to accommodate >food >stores and young of the insects. Used in lipsticks, many cosmetics, the wax >can be easily substituted with paraffin (petroleum based) or vegetable oil, >ceresin or carnauba wax. Beepollen is used in nutritional supplements, >cosmetic products and toothpastes. > >A large list of beekeeping links is available at >http://www.beekeeping.co.nz/others.htm , a pro-beekeeping site. > >And here's an excerpt from http://www.vegansociety.com/why/whyanimals.html >( " Why Vegan? " ) from The Vegan Society (the supposed coiners of the term > " vegan " in 1944): > >BEES > > In similar ways to other farmed animals, bees are manipulated to >provide >a range of useful products - being honey, beeswax, propolis, bee pollen, >royal jelly (bee milk) and even venom. > > Beekeepers puff smoke into hives to calm the bees and make them easier >to >handle. However, this increases the chances of them being crushed during >comb >manipulation. > > To prevent her leaving the hive and taking the colony with her >('swarming'), the queen's wings are clipped. She is inseminated >artificially >with sperm obtained from decapitated bees. The queen is killed when her >egg-laying abilities decline and, consequently, the hive becomes less >productive - usually after 2 years. During this time she will have laid >300,000 eggs; in the wild she would have produced over 500,000 during a >natural lifespan. > > After removal, honey (produced by bees as a food source for lean >winter >months) is substituted with a nutrient-deficient white sugar solution. >Artificial pollen substitutes are also deployed; however, colonies deprived >of natural pollen will soon become weak and less productive. Synthetic >pesticides and antibiotics may also be used. > > > > ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 26, 2000 Report Share Posted March 26, 2000 i have mixed feelings about honey. My aunt in South America used to be a beekeeper, and her methods of extracting honey weren't cruel at all and only a few bees accidentally drowned in the honey. She only extracted the honey, though. I agree that mass production of honey most likely uses cruel methods, but small-scale beekeeping, specially organic, doesn't do much harm to bees. I wouldn't call it exploitation, just like I wouldn't call exploitation for example collecting your pet chicken's eggs for an occasional cake. -Belle ____ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2000 Report Share Posted March 27, 2000 Hi Isabelle and all, I think there is a distinction between using the eggs from a " pet " chicken and keeping bees. The difference is that even hobbyist beekeepers keep the bees with the *purpose* of getting the honey, so exploitation is the fundamental motivation. I also don't think there are many people who keep chickens without an interest in the eggs. I not trying to be nit picky or dogmatic; I don't even disagree with you, Isabelle, that it's not so bad to steal a little honey if it doesn't hurt the bees. By the same token, someone who keeps happy little chickens on their farm and picks up the eggs that fall all over the place doesn't even register as a blip on the " evil-o-meter " compared to the factory farming industry. I just wanted to make the distinction clear for the sake of philosophy. For my own sense of intellectual/emotional integrity and spiritual gratification, I try to be as vegan as I can (I'm not there yet), but what's right for me isn't necessarily what's right for you. If you care about definitions, honey isn't vegan. I don't really care about definitions; ultimately, I'm a vegan because it makes me feel good, and I believe that there's nothing wrong with that motivation. That feeling of good will is a part of our evolution as societal animals and I like that trait in humans. It may be the best thing going for us and our survival through technological adolescence (the period in our advancement where we either learn to live with technology that could destroy the planet, or we destroy the planet). I hypothesize that people act primarily according to their emotions and we base our emotions on our perceptions and beliefs. It's hard to have strong emotions about exploitation of insects, especially if they aren't killed for their wares. If you have your facts straight on where your honey came from, and you really don't feel bad about it, then so be it; as an almost-vegan (by definition), you're still doing ten times more than 9 out of ten people are doing for animals or ecology. It's great to want to minimize cruelty and not care about definitions. The funny thing is that I have been putting myself in that category since I started to be a vegan, but now that I'm wondering why I chose to not eat honey, I realize that I do have aspirations that are purely philosophical and I haven't really been admitting that to myself. I think it's that fear of dogmatism again. I'm really glad you guys brought this up. You know, in the beginning, I thought I was a vegetarian for health reasons, and it took a while for me to come to grips with the fact that I actually care about what happens to animals that I don't know. Now I'm finding out that I'm philosophically motivated. Hmph. best regards, and thanks for reading through all that, Anthony ps. Kind of related to my ramblings above, I heard Stephen Hawking (brilliant astro-physicist) say in an interview that he agrees with something that Einstein once said. Hawking quoted Einstein as saying that humans' natural aggression which served us very well in pre and early civilization is the greatest detriment to our survival in a future where nuclear weapons and other such destructive technology exists. I'd add that the allowance for that aggression today comes from the same self-centered perspective that allows us to ignore the suffering of animals for our pleasure. Isabelle Netto wrote: > > " Isabelle Netto " <isabelle240 > > i have mixed feelings about honey. My aunt in South America used to be a > beekeeper, and her methods of extracting honey weren't cruel at all and only > a few bees accidentally drowned in the honey. She only extracted the honey, > though. > I agree that mass production of honey most likely uses cruel methods, but > small-scale beekeeping, specially organic, doesn't do much harm to bees. I > wouldn't call it exploitation, just like I wouldn't call exploitation for > example collecting your pet chicken's eggs for an occasional cake. > -Belle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2001 Report Share Posted May 24, 2001 What about any nutritional info on honey? My grandfather kept bees and never did the disturbing violence that was described. He was pretty much let them do what comes naturally and we will take some of the extra. Would this make it alright or are there other reasons as well? ~Zena, Lactation Counselor & Financial Consultant in Las Vegas mother of Thad 14yo; Thea 11yo; Sariah 6.5yo; & Charles 4.5yo www.wmas.com & www.slingsnthings.com ICQ#23200192 AIM: zena1st " If it wasn't *hard* then everyone would be doing it! It's the *hard* that makes it so Great! " ~ From the movie " A League of Their Own " Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2001 Report Share Posted May 24, 2001 I've heard that the bees in the US are all pretty much 'domesticated' and have been 'messed with' so much that they are very suseptable to disease. This is all due to human interference for the honey trade. I've also heard they use bees to pollinate crops they normally would be the main pollinaters in order to have the side crop of honey and this disturbs the natural pollinaters. An example would be butterflies I suppose. The thought is the bees pretty much take over and the butterflies or natural insects that would do the job are forced to move on or die. I have not researched this further because I find avoiding honey to be very easy and inline with my ethics. I do know that there is plenty we don't understand about the insect world, but we are all on our own path and do what is right for us. Respect to all beings, Linda Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 24, 2001 Report Share Posted May 24, 2001 You pose the same sort of question people ask about milk and eggs. Is it ok to consume these animal products if the cow or chicken was treated humanely? Well, that answer is up to each individual person. I for one feel it is always wrong. Cow's milk is nutritionally perfect for calves and is never something I would feed to a human. And at the risk of opening Pandora's Box, I say that to me eating chicken eggs is the same as eating a human embryo. Sadly, most honey is not made the way your grandfather made it. > " Zena " <zena.gresham > > >Re: HONEY >Thu, 24 May 2001 09:03:47 -0700 > >What about any nutritional info on honey? My grandfather kept bees and >never did the disturbing violence that was described. He was pretty much >let them do what comes naturally and we will take some of the extra. >Would this make it alright or are there other reasons as well? > >~Zena, Lactation Counselor & Financial Consultant in Las Vegas >mother of Thad 14yo; Thea 11yo; Sariah 6.5yo; & Charles 4.5yo >www.wmas.com & www.slingsnthings.com >ICQ#23200192 AIM: zena1st > " If it wasn't *hard* then everyone would be doing it! It's the *hard* that >makes it so Great! " ~ From the movie " A League of Their Own " > > > _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 26, 2001 Report Share Posted May 26, 2001 In a message dated 5/25/01 8:09:04 AM Eastern Daylight Time, writes: << Why isn't honey vegan? it is a natural product of the bees and no harm is done to them when they collect the honey. They are not tampered with like cows...i dont get it. jess >> I have read that some times their legs are riped off when the honey is harvested. I dont know how they are riped off, just what I read. hth, Jo-Ann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 15, 2003 Report Share Posted November 15, 2003 On 15 Nov 2003 at 8:23, HotMail wrote: > Why not honey? I know it's not " vegan " , but I have never heard a good reason why not. hey there, well the simple answer is it is made by animals, hence not vegan. but if your looking for more, first off those little guys and gals work there stingers off all year to make the perfect food to keep them fed and healthy in the winter. then we come along and rob them of it leaving them only sugar water to survive off of. on top of that how do we get it out? we smoke them out of there hives (i'm pretty sure this isn't a pleasant experience for them). many bees die while the racks are being slid in and out of the hives. also most bee keepers put pollen collectors on the hives (this is where they get bee pollen from). these are basically brushes that the brush some of the pollen out of the pollen sacks on the bees legs. a very large number of bees loose legs and wings in these. peace jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 While some of these practices may be true for large commercial beekeeping, I think you will find that the backyard beekeeper love their bees and treats them with care. A backyard beekeeper never takes the bees supply of honey that they need to survive the winter. It is only the extra they produce when they are happy, busy bees. While smoking is used to calm them, no harm comes to them. As for killing bees as frames are removed, this certainly happens in commercial ventures, but the backyard beekeeper doesn't want even one of their bees to be killed and is extremely careful. Not to say that one is not accedentally hurt, but they love their bees and would never harm them on purpose. So I think that it depends on the source of the honey. I for one am not convinced that eating honey from a backyard beekeepers bees would be wrong. The concerns accociated with commercial honey just don't apply to the backyard beekeeper's honey. Respectfully, Rclimbzen wrote: On 15 Nov 2003 at 8:23, HotMail wrote:> Why not honey? I know it's not "vegan", but I have never heard a good reason why not.hey there, well the simple answer is it is made by animals, hence not vegan. but if your looking for more, first off those little guys and gals work there stingers off all year to make the perfect food to keep them fed and healthy in the winter. then we come along and rob them of it leaving them only sugar water to survive off of. on top of that how do we get it out? we smoke them out of there hives (i'm pretty sure this isn't a pleasant experience for them). many bees die while the racks are being slid in and out of the hives. also most bee keepers put pollen collectors on the hives (this is where they get bee pollen from). these are basically brushes that the brush some of the pollen out of the pollen sacks on the bees legs. a very large number of bees loose legs and wings in these. peacejeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 17, 2003 Report Share Posted November 17, 2003 I think the overall issue is that, like cow's milk, which a cow produces for the nourishment of other cows (calves), honey is something that bees produce for themselves...I don't see why bees would produce " extra " honey...this just doesn't make sense...how does one deterimine whether there is honey beyond the bee's needs? I'm sure the bees make what they need...in any case if one is to say that treatment of an animal is the basis on which to chose to consume something, than you could also consume dairy if the cows were treated humanely and " loved " by their keeper...either way, said person would not be vegan, but lacto-vegetarian...I don't think these definitions are so flexible...a vegan doesn't eat animal products, period. A lacto-ovo vegeterian does not eat meat, but eats eggs and dairy, and I have a hard time calling anyone who eats flesh a vegetarian of any sort...maybe they are a person who doesn't eat red meat or doesn't eat poultry or red meat...but that is not, be definition, a vegetarian, as far as I'm concerned.... On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, One Traveler wrote: > While some of these practices may be true for large commercial beekeeping, I think you will find that the backyard beekeeper love their bees and treats them with care. A backyard beekeeper never takes the bees supply of honey that they need to survive the winter. It is only the extra they produce when they are happy, busy bees. While smoking is used to calm them, no harm comes to them. As for killing bees as frames are removed, this certainly happens in commercial ventures, but the backyard beekeeper doesn't want even one of their bees to be killed and is extremely careful. Not to say that one is not accedentally hurt, but they love their bees and would never harm them on purpose. So I think that it depends on the source of the honey. I for one am not convinced that eating honey from a backyard beekeepers bees would be wrong. The concerns accociated with commercial honey just don't apply to the backyard beekeeper's honey. > > Respectfully, R > > climbzen wrote: > On 15 Nov 2003 at 8:23, HotMail wrote: > > > Why not honey? I know it's not " vegan " , but I have never heard a good reason why not. > > hey there, > well the simple answer is it is made by animals, hence not vegan. > but if your looking for more, first off those little guys and gals work > there stingers off all year to make the perfect food to keep them fed > and healthy in the winter. then we come along and rob them of it > leaving them only sugar water to survive off of. on top of that how > do we get it out? we smoke them out of there hives (i'm pretty sure > this isn't a pleasant experience for them). many bees die while the > racks are being slid in and out of the hives. also most bee keepers > put pollen collectors on the hives (this is where they get bee pollen > from). these are basically brushes that the brush some of the pollen > out of the pollen sacks on the bees legs. a very large number of > bees loose legs and wings in these. > peace > jeff > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 ah. the age old "vegan " question. So, by the same guidelines, one could have a cow in his or her backyard and drink that milk...... it wouldn't be "wrong" by those same definitions....but it all depends on what you think "vegan" means. One Traveler <one_travelerr wrote: While some of these practices may be true for large commercial beekeeping, I think you will find that the backyard beekeeper love their bees and treats them with care. A backyard beekeeper never takes the bees supply of honey that they need to survive the winter. It is only the extra they produce when they are happy, busy bees. While smoking is used to calm them, no harm comes to them. As for killing bees as frames are removed, this certainly happens in commercial ventures, but the backyard beekeeper doesn't want even one of their bees to be killed and is extremely careful. Not to say that one is not accedentally hurt, but they love their bees and would never harm them on purpose. So I think that it depends on the source of the honey. I for one am not convinced that eating honey from a backyard beekeepers bees would be wrong. The concerns accociated with commercial honey just don't apply to the backyard beekeeper's honey. Respectfully, Rclimbzen wrote: On 15 Nov 2003 at 8:23, HotMail wrote:> Why not honey? I know it's not "vegan", but I have never heard a good reason why not.hey there, well the simple answer is it is made by animals, hence not vegan. but if your looking for more, first off those little guys and gals work there stingers off all year to make the perfect food to keep them fed and healthy in the winter. then we come along and rob them of it leaving them only sugar water to survive off of. on top of that how do we get it out? we smoke them out of there hives (i'm pretty sure this isn't a pleasant experience for them). many bees die while the racks are being slid in and out of the hives. also most bee keepers put pollen collectors on the hives (this is where they get bee pollen from). these are basically brushes that the brush some of the pollen out of the pollen sacks on the bees legs. a very large number of bees loose legs and wings in these. peacejeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 I thought I'd just put my thoughts in on the honey topic. I honestly don't see any confusion. If it is produced by a living being, don't eat it. What makes bees any different to any other animal? ¸..· '¨¨)) -:¦:- ¸.·' .·'¨¨)) ((¸¸.·' ...·' -:¦:- Alison -:¦:- ((¸¸..·'* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 <<<angel A catgrrl809 wrote:ah. the age old "vegan " question. So, by the same guidelines, one could have a cow in his or her backyard and drink that milk...... it wouldn't be "wrong" by those same definitions....but it all depends on what you think "vegan" means. >>> I know what vegan means...I also know that the reason most people become vegan(aside from health concerns) is because of the appalling way food animals are treated. I have 25 chickens, we have had chickens for years. Before I stopped eating meat, we used to sell them to the local livestock co-op when they were "laid out". Now our hens will live out their natural lives, and while they are doing that, I see absolutely nothing wrong with eating their eggs. I don't need to label myself as vegan or anything else. Just knowing that I am not harming them and that the eggs are a bonus, if you will, is good enough for me. And honey from well treated bees doesn't seem very redical to me either. JMO Jan Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 hey there, i would say you have sadly deluded your self to justify your eating honey. all of the information i gave i got from two separate local (backyard) bee keepers, while i worked for a local HFS. yes they love there bees, but that doesn't change the fact that many die in the removal of frames. also both of the beekeepers i talked to removed all the honey and supplied the bees with sugar water for the winter. the smoke doesn't calm the bees exactly, a better term is it makes them lethargic, just as you and i would get trapped in a smoky building, it is no different for them. these are all facts that apply to all bee keepers no matter there size. peace jeff On 17 Nov 2003 at 13:42, One Traveler wrote: > > While some of these practices may be true for large commercial beekeeping, I think you will find > that the backyard beekeeper love their bees and treats them with care. A backyard beekeeper > never takes the bees supply of honey that they need to survive the winter. It is only the extra they > produce when they are happy, busy bees. While smoking is used to calm them, no harm comes > to them. As for killing bees as frames are removed, this certainly happens in commercial > ventures, but the backyard beekeeper doesn't want even one of their bees to be killed and is > extremely careful. Not to say that one is not accedentally hurt, but they love their bees and would > never harm them on purpose. So I think that it depends on the source of the honey. I for one am > not convinced that eating honey from a backyard beekeepers bees would be wrong. The > concerns accociated with commercial honey just don't apply to the backyard beekeeper's honey. > > Respectfully, R > > climbzen wrote: > On 15 Nov 2003 at 8:23, HotMail wrote: > > > Why not honey? I know it's not " vegan " , but I have never heard a good > reason why not. > > hey there, > well the simple answer is it is made by animals, hence not vegan. > but if your looking for more, first off those little guys and gals work > there stingers off all year to make the perfect food to keep them fed > and healthy in the winter. then we come along and rob them of it > leaving them only sugar water to survive off of. on top of that how > do we get it out? we smoke them out of there hives (i'm pretty sure > this isn't a pleasant experience for them). many bees die while the > racks are being slid in and out of the hives. also most bee keepers > put pollen collectors on the hives (this is where they get bee pollen > from). these are basically brushes that the brush some of the pollen > out of the pollen sacks on the bees legs. a very large number of > bees loose legs and wings in these. > peace > jeff > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 That is interesting...I guess the main reason this is a point of contention here is because this is a VEGAN recipes list...that is why it is confusing when a recipe that is not, by definition, vegan is posted since it doesn't fit the guidelines of the list... > > I know what vegan means...I also know that the reason most people become vegan(aside from health concerns) is because of the appalling way food animals are treated. I have 25 chickens, we have had chickens for years. Before I stopped eating meat, we used to sell them to the local livestock co-op when they were " laid out " . Now our hens will live out their natural lives, and while they are doing that, I see absolutely nothing wrong with eating their eggs. I don't need to label myself as vegan or anything else. Just knowing that I am not harming them and that the eggs are a bonus, if you will, is good enough for me. And honey from well treated bees doesn't seem very redical to me either. JMO Jan > > > Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard ******************************************************************* Shawna Marie Schwalenberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 Shawna, I could not agree with you more. As far as I know, vegan means you do not consume or use animal flesh or by products. Being that a bee is actually an insect I have heard arguements that the word animal would not pertain to them but really, how many people are vegan who are not ethical vegans? So we in that case, are not using ANY by products of ANY living, sentient creature. Therefore, eating honey would mean you are not vegan but vegetarian. As far as the "backyard" bee keeper, I still do not see how using that honey makes one a vegan. One is still using a by product of a creature, whether or not the bee keeper "loves" their bees. I honestly do not think anyone can love anything they would willingly exploit for benefit or profit. I too am quite upset about the loose ways the words vegan and vegetarian are used. I have heard many times, "I am a vegetarian, I eat chicken but no red meat." A women I personally know told me when we first met that she had been vegetarian for 17 years. I was so proud to meet someone who had been dedicated so long until I saw her eat. Her dinner that night consisted of tuna fish. Unless something has changed, fish and poultry are not vegetables, therefore, are not eaten by vegetarians. There are many kinds of lifestyles out there that pertain to food. I happened upon someone who called himself a "Pescatarian." Some people only eat fruit and are called fruitarians. There are many ways to express your choices without confusing the lot but misusing a term. You would think vegetarian would be easily understood, maybe one day long ago it really was, but now everyone throws it around as if it were the new fad. Time to get back to work! For the animals, Kimberly Message: 2Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:54:07 -0600 (CST)Shawna Marie Schwalenberg Re: honeyI think the overall issue is that, like cow's milk, which a cow producesfor the nourishment of other cows (calves), honey is something that beesproduce for themselves...I don't see why bees would produce "extra"honey...this just doesn't make sense...how does one deterimine whetherthere is honey beyond the bee's needs? I'm sure the bees make what theyneed...in any case if one is to say that treatment of an animal is thebasis on which to chose to consume something, than you could also consumedairy if the cows were treated humanely and "loved" by theirkeeper...either way, said person would not be vegan, butlacto-vegetarian...I don't think these definitions are so flexible...avegan doesn't eat animal products, period. A lacto-ovo vegeterian doesnot eat meat, but eats eggs and dairy, and I have a hard time callinganyone who eats flesh a vegetarian of any sort...maybe they are a personwho doesn't eat red meat or doesn't eat poultry or red meat...but that isnot, be definition, a vegetarian, as far as I'm concerned....On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, One Traveler wrote:> While some of these practices may be true for large commercial beekeeping, I think you will find that the backyard beekeeper love their bees and treats them with care. A backyard beekeeper never takes the bees supply of honey that they need to survive the winter. It is only the extra they produce when they are happy, busy bees. While smoking is used to calm them, no harm comes to them. As for killing bees as frames are removed, this certainly happens in commercial ventures, but the backyard beekeeper doesn't want even one of their bees to be killed and is extremely careful. Not to say that one is not accedentally hurt, but they love their bees and would never harm them on purpose. So I think that it depends on the source of the honey. I for one am not convinced that eating honey from a backyard beekeepers bees would be wrong. The concerns accociated with commercial honey just don't apply to the backyard beekeeper's honey.> > Respectfully, R> > climbzen wrote:> On 15 Nov 2003 at 8:23, HotMail wrote:> Kimberly ChadwickThe animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men.- Alice WalkerThe questions is not; Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?- Jeremey BenthamWant to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 <<<<Shawna Marie Schwalenberg <shawnam wrote: That is interesting...I guess the main reason this is a point ofcontention here is because this is a VEGAN recipes list...that is why itis confusing when a recipe that is not, by definition, vegan is postedsince it doesn't fit the guidelines of the list...>>>>> That's true, and I'm not trying to change the scope of the list! I wouldn't post a non vegan recipe here, nor do I expect to find any. However, I don't care if some recipes are not entirely vegan since I can substitute as needed. However, this is my feeling on the subject, since it was already brought up! Jan Protect your identity with Mail AddressGuard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 I don't understand why folks feel the need to label themselves so vehemently when it comes to vegan, vegetarian, fruitarian, etc. I chose to stop eating meat mainly because my daughter became a veggie about 3 years ago and converted me. I do understand that eating factory farmed eggs and dairy is basically murder, but I don't understand why someone would have a problem with, say, my eggs from my chickens, who are treated wonderfully and will live to ripe old ages. They are going to lay the eggs regardless of whether we use them or not. So, why not? It seems wasteful not to! And BTW, this is a VEGAN RECIPE list, there are other lists which talk about these matters. I'm sure some people are, like me, on here because of a family member's choice of veganism. If people choose to use honey or whatever, that is their personal choice. We are all on our own journey; I'm sure most of us here used to eat meat and thought it was just fine! Jan <<<Kimberly Chadwick <qterthanu23 wrote: Shawna, I could not agree with you more. As far as I know, vegan means you do not consume or use animal flesh or by products. Being that a bee is actually an insect I have heard arguements that the word animal would not pertain to them but really, how many people are vegan who are not ethical vegans? So we in that case, are not using ANY by products of ANY living, sentient creature. Therefore, eating honey would mean you are not vegan but vegetarian. As far as the "backyard" bee keeper, I still do not see how using that honey makes one a vegan. One is still using a by product of a creature, whether or not the bee keeper "loves" their bees. I honestly do not think anyone can love anything they would willingly exploit for benefit or profit. I too am quite upset about the loose ways the words vegan and vegetarian are used. I have heard many times, "I am a vegetarian, I eat chicken but no red meat." A women I personally know told me when we first met that she had been vegetarian for 17 years. I was so proud to meet someone who had been dedicated so long until I saw her eat. Her dinner that night consisted of tuna fish. Unless something has changed, fish and poultry are not vegetables, therefore, are not eaten by vegetarians. There are many kinds of lifestyles out there that pertain to food. I happened upon someone who called himself a "Pescatarian." Some people only eat fruit and are called fruitarians. There are many ways to express your choices without confusing the lot but misusing a term. You would think vegetarian would be easily understood, maybe one day long ago it really was, but now everyone throws it around as if it were the new fad. Time to get back to work! For the animals, Kimberly Message: 2Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:54:07 -0600 (CST)Shawna Marie Schwalenberg Re: honeyI think the overall issue is that, like cow's milk, which a cow producesfor the nourishment of other cows (calves), honey is something that beesproduce for themselves...I don't see why bees would produce "extra"honey...this just doesn't make sense...how does one deterimine whetherthere is honey beyond the bee's needs? I'm sure the bees make what theyneed...in any case if one is to say that treatment of an animal is thebasis on which to chose to consume something, than you could also consumedairy if the cows were treated humanely and "loved" by theirkeeper...either way, said person would not be vegan, butlacto-vegetarian...I don't think these definitions are so flexible...avegan doesn't eat animal products, period. A lacto-ovo vegeterian doesnot eat meat, but eats eggs and dairy, and I have a hard time callinganyone who eats flesh a vegetarian of any sort...maybe they are a personwho doesn't eat red meat or doesn't eat poultry or red meat...but that isnot, be definition, a vegetarian, as far as I'm concerned....On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, One Traveler wrote:> While some of these practices may be true for large commercial beekeeping, I think you will find that the backyard beekeeper love their bees and treats them with care. A backyard beekeeper never takes the bees supply of honey that they need to survive the winter. It is only the extra they produce when they are happy, busy bees. While smoking is used to calm them, no harm comes to them. As for killing bees as frames are removed, this certainly happens in commercial ventures, but the backyard beekeeper doesn't want even one of their bees to be killed and is extremely careful. Not to say that one is not accedentally hurt, but they love their bees and would never harm them on purpose. So I think that it depends on the source of the honey. I for one am not convinced that eating honey from a backyard beekeepers bees would be wrong. The concerns accociated with commercial honey just don't apply to the backyard beekeeper's honey.> > Respectfully, R> > climbzen wrote:> On 15 Nov 2003 at 8:23, HotMail wrote:> Kimberly ChadwickThe animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men.- Alice WalkerThe questions is not; Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?- Jeremey Bentham Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 18, 2003 Report Share Posted November 18, 2003 In a message dated 11/18/03 6:30:55 AM Pacific Standard Time, flufff_00 writes: .. And honey from well treated bees doesn't seem very redical to me either. I know vegans who won't eat maple syrup because it has to be tapped from trees. I think the ethics is subjective when it comes to fine lines. I live in the country and we have local organic beekeepers out here. If I knew the individual beekeepers, talked to them and were convinced the bees were safe and sharing the honey with us, I would use it. For every generalization, there is an exception, and we have to follow our own hearts. As far as posted recipes go, people can always substitute if they don't feel comfortable using an ingredient. Gloria Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 19, 2003 Report Share Posted November 19, 2003 Biologically, insects are animals, they are Animalia:Arthropoda:Insecta. As far as I'm concerned, they are animals and even if they were not biologically classified as such, they are living beings as you said. On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, [iso-8859-1] Kimberly Chadwick wrote: > Shawna, > > I could not agree with you more. As far as I know, vegan means you do not consume or use animal flesh or by products. Being that a bee is actually an insect I have heard arguements that the word animal would not pertain to them but really, how many people are vegan who are not ethical vegans? So we in that case, are not using ANY by products of ANY living, sentient creature. Therefore, eating honey would mean you are not vegan but vegetarian. > > As far as the " backyard " bee keeper, I still do not see how using that honey makes one a vegan. One is still using a by product of a creature, whether or not the bee keeper " loves " their bees. I honestly do not think anyone can love anything they would willingly exploit for benefit or profit. > > I too am quite upset about the loose ways the words vegan and vegetarian are used. I have heard many times, " I am a vegetarian, I eat chicken but no red meat. " A women I personally know told me when we first met that she had been vegetarian for 17 years. I was so proud to meet someone who had been dedicated so long until I saw her eat. Her dinner that night consisted of tuna fish. Unless something has changed, fish and poultry are not vegetables, therefore, are not eaten by vegetarians. > > There are many kinds of lifestyles out there that pertain to food. I happened upon someone who called himself a " Pescatarian. " Some people only eat fruit and are called fruitarians. There are many ways to express your choices without confusing the lot but misusing a term. You would think vegetarian would be easily understood, maybe one day long ago it really was, but now everyone throws it around as if it were the new fad. > > Time to get back to work! > > For the animals, > Kimberly > > Message: 2 > Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:54:07 -0600 (CST) > Shawna Marie Schwalenberg > Re: honey > > > > > > I think the overall issue is that, like cow's milk, which a cow produces > for the nourishment of other cows (calves), honey is something that bees > produce for themselves...I don't see why bees would produce " extra " > honey...this just doesn't make sense...how does one deterimine whether > there is honey beyond the bee's needs? I'm sure the bees make what they > need...in any case if one is to say that treatment of an animal is the > basis on which to chose to consume something, than you could also consume > dairy if the cows were treated humanely and " loved " by their > keeper...either way, said person would not be vegan, but > lacto-vegetarian...I don't think these definitions are so flexible...a > vegan doesn't eat animal products, period. A lacto-ovo vegeterian does > not eat meat, but eats eggs and dairy, and I have a hard time calling > anyone who eats flesh a vegetarian of any sort...maybe they are a person > who doesn't eat red meat or doesn't eat poultry or red meat...but that is > not, be definition, a vegetarian, as far as I'm concerned.... > > > > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, One Traveler wrote: > > > While some of these practices may be true for large commercial beekeeping, I think you will find that the backyard beekeeper love their bees and treats them with care. A backyard beekeeper never takes the bees supply of honey that they need to survive the winter. It is only the extra they produce when they are happy, busy bees. While smoking is used to calm them, no harm comes to them. As for killing bees as frames are removed, this certainly happens in commercial ventures, but the backyard beekeeper doesn't want even one of their bees to be killed and is extremely careful. Not to say that one is not accedentally hurt, but they love their bees and would never harm them on purpose. So I think that it depends on the source of the honey. I for one am not convinced that eating honey from a backyard beekeepers bees would be wrong. The concerns accociated with commercial honey just don't apply to the backyard beekeeper's honey. > > > > Respectfully, R > > > > climbzen wrote: > > On 15 Nov 2003 at 8:23, HotMail wrote: > > > > > Kimberly Chadwick > The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men. > - Alice Walker > The questions is not; Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer? > - Jeremey Bentham > > > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger ******************************************************************* Shawna Marie Schwalenberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Just about everything I know about being Vegan, I learned from this list. I have no friends who are Vegan. If animal rights are not the reason for obstaining from eating animal flesh or products, then vegans should stop trying to sell the idea that we just don't want to hurt any living thing. Because eating honey from well cared for bees does not constitute harm. What I have learned is the definition of vegan on this list is nothing from animals. But then that should be the definition and not talking about not eating animals because we don't want to hurt a living thing. So I for one will not post anything that has to do with animals on this site. Shawna Marie Schwalenberg <shawnam wrote: Biologically, insects are animals, they are Animalia:Arthropoda:Insecta.As far as I'm concerned, they are animals and even if they were notbiologically classified as such, they are living beings as you said.On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, [iso-8859-1] Kimberly Chadwick wrote:> Shawna, > > I could not agree with you more. As far as I know, vegan means you do not consume or use animal flesh or by products. Being that a bee is actually an insect I have heard arguements that the word animal would not pertain to them but really, how many people are vegan who are not ethical vegans? So we in that case, are not using ANY by products of ANY living, sentient creature. Therefore, eating honey would mean you are not vegan but vegetarian. > > As far as the "backyard" bee keeper, I still do not see how using that honey makes one a vegan. One is still using a by product of a creature, whether or not the bee keeper "loves" their bees. I honestly do not think anyone can love anything they would willingly exploit for benefit or profit. > > I too am quite upset about the loose ways the words vegan and vegetarian are used. I have heard many times, "I am a vegetarian, I eat chicken but no red meat." A women I personally know told me when we first met that she had been vegetarian for 17 years. I was so proud to meet someone who had been dedicated so long until I saw her eat. Her dinner that night consisted of tuna fish. Unless something has changed, fish and poultry are not vegetables, therefore, are not eaten by vegetarians. > > There are many kinds of lifestyles out there that pertain to food. I happened upon someone who called himself a "Pescatarian." Some people only eat fruit and are called fruitarians. There are many ways to express your choices without confusing the lot but misusing a term. You would think vegetarian would be easily understood, maybe one day long ago it really was, but now everyone throws it around as if it were the new fad. > > Time to get back to work!> > For the animals, > Kimberly> > Message: 2> Mon, 17 Nov 2003 16:54:07 -0600 (CST)> Shawna Marie Schwalenberg > Re: honey> > > > > > I think the overall issue is that, like cow's milk, which a cow produces> for the nourishment of other cows (calves), honey is something that bees> produce for themselves...I don't see why bees would produce "extra"> honey...this just doesn't make sense...how does one deterimine whether> there is honey beyond the bee's needs? I'm sure the bees make what they> need...in any case if one is to say that treatment of an animal is the> basis on which to chose to consume something, than you could also consume> dairy if the cows were treated humanely and "loved" by their> keeper...either way, said person would not be vegan, but> lacto-vegetarian...I don't think these definitions are so flexible...a> vegan doesn't eat animal products, period. A lacto-ovo vegeterian does> not eat meat, but eats eggs and dairy, and I have a hard time calling> anyone who eats flesh a vegetarian of any sort...maybe they are a person> who doesn't eat red meat or doesn't eat poultry or red meat...but that is> not, be definition, a vegetarian, as far as I'm concerned....> > > > On Mon, 17 Nov 2003, One Traveler wrote:> > > While some of these practices may be true for large commercial beekeeping, I think you will find that the backyard beekeeper love their bees and treats them with care. A backyard beekeeper never takes the bees supply of honey that they need to survive the winter. It is only the extra they produce when they are happy, busy bees. While smoking is used to calm them, no harm comes to them. As for killing bees as frames are removed, this certainly happens in commercial ventures, but the backyard beekeeper doesn't want even one of their bees to be killed and is extremely careful. Not to say that one is not accedentally hurt, but they love their bees and would never harm them on purpose. So I think that it depends on the source of the honey. I for one am not convinced that eating honey from a backyard beekeepers bees would be wrong. The concerns accociated with commercial honey just don't apply to the backyard beekeeper's honey.> > > > Respectfully, R> > > > climbzen wrote:> > On 15 Nov 2003 at 8:23, HotMail wrote:> > > > > Kimberly Chadwick> The animals of the world exist for their own reasons. They were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites or women for men.> - Alice Walker> The questions is not; Can they reason? nor, Can they talk? but, Can they suffer?> - Jeremey Bentham> > > Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Messenger*******************************************************************Shawna Marie Schwalenberg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 Then you have talked to crappy beekeepers.climbzen wrote: hey there, i would say you have sadly deluded your self to justify your eating honey. all of the information i gave i got from two separate local (backyard) bee keepers, while i worked for a local HFS. yes they love there bees, but that doesn't change the fact that many die in the removal of frames. also both of the beekeepers i talked to removed all the honey and supplied the bees with sugar water for the winter. the smoke doesn't calm the bees exactly, a better term is it makes them lethargic, just as you and i would get trapped in a smoky building, it is no different for them. these are all facts that apply to all bee keepers no matter there size.peace jeffOn 17 Nov 2003 at 13:42, One Traveler wrote:> > While some of these practices may be true for large commercial beekeeping, I think you will find > that the backyard beekeeper love their bees and treats them with care. A backyard beekeeper > never takes the bees supply of honey that they need to survive the winter. It is only the extra they > produce when they are happy, busy bees. While smoking is used to calm them, no harm comes > to them. As for killing bees as frames are removed, this certainly happens in commercial > ventures, but the backyard beekeeper doesn't want even one of their bees to be killed and is > extremely careful. Not to say that one is not accedentally hurt, but they love their bees and would > never harm them on purpose. So I think that it depends on the source of the honey. I for one am > not convinced that eating honey from a backyard beekeepers bees would be wrong. The > concerns accociated with commercial honey just don't apply to the backyard beekeeper's honey.> > Respectfully, R> > climbzen wrote:> On 15 Nov 2003 at 8:23, HotMail wrote:> > > Why not honey? I know it's not "vegan", but I have never heard a good > reason why not.> > hey there,> well the simple answer is it is made by animals, hence not vegan. > but if your looking for more, first off those little guys and gals work > there stingers off all year to make the perfect food to keep them fed > and healthy in the winter. then we come along and rob them of it > leaving them only sugar water to survive off of. on top of that how > do we get it out? we smoke them out of there hives (i'm pretty sure > this isn't a pleasant experience for them). many bees die while the > racks are being slid in and out of the hives. also most bee keepers > put pollen collectors on the hives (this is where they get bee pollen > from). these are basically brushes that the brush some of the pollen > out of the pollen sacks on the bees legs. a very large number of > bees loose legs and wings in these. > peace> jeff> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 20, 2003 Report Share Posted November 20, 2003 On 19 Nov 2003 at 19:17, One Traveler wrote: > > Then you have talked to crappy beekeepers. hey there, of course they are, there beekeepers, they exploit a fellow beings for financial gain, how could they not be considered crappy. peace jeff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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