About Curious George and being nice...

[Guest guest]

Julie,

 

Maybe I am misreading it but I found the tone of your response to be kind of

hostile. I thought this forum was a place to discuss our views in a

respectful way. I have seen several other posts today on other topics that

also seem a bit reactive. It's not what was said but the way it was said

that bothered me. I believe that we should be kind and respectful to others

in postings.

 

Regarding Curious George and Huck Finn, first let me say that while, as an

adult, you may understand that an author is using the killing of an animal as

a literary device, I do not believe that a two-year-old has the cognitive

capacity to understand that. No matter how you explain it to them, they are

much too concrete at that age to understand a complex, symbolic literary

device. I do not know the details of the scene you describe in Huck Finn

about the killing of the pig but the killing of any animal in a book -

classic or not - would bother me on some level and I still maintain, that

like Curious George, there is a degree of normalization of the mistreatment

of animals.

 

I am not suggesting a ban on these books but for readers to look at it in an

enlightened way.

 

Second, I think you misunderstood my comment. All I was saying was that how I

viewed Curious George as a child has changed for me as a more conscious vegan

adult. I understand from your post that this is not true for you. We still

have the books and I still explain things to my seven-year-old daughter. If

we come across someone fishing in a book, she usually says " Ew...I wish they

were vegetarian " and that is it. Some books that we started reading, like

" Misty of Chincoteugue " (or however you spell it), we stopped reading, at my

daughter's request, because she didn't like how the horses were being treated

in the book. I have to respect this.

 

Finally, I do not think my comments " smack of the same close-mindedness of

some meat-eaters " . In fact, I am married to a carnivore and, if you were

reading recent posts, I am the same vegan who wrote about the " weird dinner

invitation " where I offered to serve meat to some carnivores who were coming

to dinner and then I felt uncomfortable about it. I don't think I am close

minded at all.

 

Please, if you feel strongly about something, let's try to be kind to each

other when responding in these posts.

 

Lisa

[Guest guest]

I don't think you misread the tone of Julie's response. I also think she

misunderstood completely what the objections were. I'm all in favor of

explaining books to children but how do you explain to your child that

Curious George was taken out of the jungle against his will, misses his

family, but it's OK because he can visit " friends " in the zoo and the man in

the yellow hat is kind to him. This is not " fantasy " . Yes, a monkey being

used as a symbol for a boy is fantasy, but how do you explain the reality of

animals being taking out of their natural environment, the inate cruelty

and unfairness of the situation, without destroying the entertainment value

of the book? There is nothing wrong, in theory, with personifying animals

to convey ideas to children (or adults, for that matter) and many books and

movies have done this successfully (Little Bear, Arthur, Bambi, Babe,

Chicken Run, to name a few), but the basic premise of Curious George is so

wrong as make it impossible to explain to a child without destroying the

humor or fun that might otherwise be there. Now, if Curious George had been

a stowaway on a ship, maybe that would be different, but he was taken

against his will (kidnapped) and forced into a situation he otherwise would

not have asked for. This is not about banning books, but rather about

recognizing that many things we once took for granted (even to the point of

deriving fun or satisfaction) are no longer viable and can't be " explained "

away.

 

Susan

 

-

<Zebramoon9

 

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 5:31 AM

About Curious George and being nice...

 

 

> Julie,

>

> Maybe I am misreading it but I found the tone of your response to be kind

of

> hostile. I thought this forum was a place to discuss our views in a

> respectful way. I have seen several other posts today on other topics

that

> also seem a bit reactive. It's not what was said but the way it was said

> that bothered me. I believe that we should be kind and respectful to

others

> in postings.

>

> Regarding Curious George and Huck Finn, first let me say that while, as an

> adult, you may understand that an author is using the killing of an animal

as

> a literary device, I do not believe that a two-year-old has the cognitive

> capacity to understand that. No matter how you explain it to them, they

are

> much too concrete at that age to understand a complex, symbolic literary

> device. I do not know the details of the scene you describe in Huck Finn

> about the killing of the pig but the killing of any animal in a book -

> classic or not - would bother me on some level and I still maintain, that

> like Curious George, there is a degree of normalization of the

mistreatment

> of animals.

>

> I am not suggesting a ban on these books but for readers to look at it in

an

> enlightened way.

>

> Second, I think you misunderstood my comment. All I was saying was that

how I

> viewed Curious George as a child has changed for me as a more conscious

vegan

> adult. I understand from your post that this is not true for you. We

still

> have the books and I still explain things to my seven-year-old daughter.

If

> we come across someone fishing in a book, she usually says " Ew...I wish

they

> were vegetarian " and that is it. Some books that we started reading, like

> " Misty of Chincoteugue " (or however you spell it), we stopped reading, at

my

> daughter's request, because she didn't like how the horses were being

treated

> in the book. I have to respect this.

>

> Finally, I do not think my comments " smack of the same close-mindedness of

> some meat-eaters " . In fact, I am married to a carnivore and, if you were

> reading recent posts, I am the same vegan who wrote about the " weird

dinner

> invitation " where I offered to serve meat to some carnivores who were

coming

> to dinner and then I felt uncomfortable about it. I don't think I am

close

> minded at all.

>

> Please, if you feel strongly about something, let's try to be kind to each

> other when responding in these posts.

>

> Lisa

>

>

>

> For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at

http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to

http://www.vrg.org/family.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Susan,

 

You wrote:

 

<< This is not about banning books, but rather about

recognizing that many things we once took for granted (even to the point of

deriving fun or satisfaction) are no longer viable and can't be " explained "

away. >>

 

I completely agree...thanks for the support.

 

Lisa

[Guest guest]

Lisa,

 

Hostile? Cruel? I think not. No, I am not the ogre of vegan internet

discussion groups. (Pardon me, if I am offending any diehard Schrek lovers

out there.) I was merely trying to use another literary device--humor--to

illustrate how dangerous I found the discussion to be. Apparently, it was

lost on you. But that actually illustrates my point beautifully, because if

one looks at things so literally, one tends to miss the point. Fiction

books, can be interpreted on a variety of levels, Curious George included.

Sure the author began the series by having the Man with the Yellow Hat take

George away from the jungle, but I hardly think that renders the book

outdated. One can interpret it in so many ways. George leaving his jungle

home is akin to a child learning how to grow up and get along in an adult

world that doesn't necessarily appreciate his childlike antics. The Man with

the Yellow Hat can be viewed as a parent who loves George no matter what

kind of trouble he causes. There is no one correct way to interpret it and

children, sometimes more than adults, understand this better because pretend

play is so much a part of their lives.

George is a cartoon character in an artificial world created by the author

and illustrator. Just arbitrarily writing off books because they do not

adhere to all of our sensibilities is intellectually crippling for both the

writer and reader. And while children might not understand the textbook

definition of a literary device, they will actually have a better

understanding of what it means by reading books that employ many different

types, personification being just one of them. And personification often

times brings animals out of their natural environments and makes them do

things that might not be very flattering.

If we are that rigid about how animals are personified in children's books

and movies, then we would have to remove about ninety percent of them from

the shelves. Let's not let our vegan kids read Peanuts comics because poor

Snoopy has to sleep outside on top of that hard wooden dog house. That must

really hurt his little back. Forget about anything in the Winnie the Pooh

series because Pooh eats nothing but honey and will probably become obese.

Don't let your kids read The Grinch because poor Max the dog has to drag

that heavy sleigh down the mountain. Is this beginning to sound ludicrous?

It should. But if you apply it to adult novels, it actually begins to sound

scary. Don't let our teenagers read Animal Farm because those pigs are

portrayed as being so manipulative and nasty. Don't let them read To Kill a

Mockingbird because in one chapter Atticus shoots a rabid dog. And by all

means keep them away from Moby Dick.

If we start to snip away at what is considered acceptable characterization

or behavior in any creative work, we will end up with a lot of works that

say nothing at all. Authors will be afraid to write anything controversial,

and people will be denied the stimulation of reading something challenging

that takes their minds beyond their own little worlds. The case can be made

for animal rights as well as for any hot-button issue in our society. Yes,

this does smack of the same close-mindedness that some meateaters have

toward vegans. You can bet that a lot of meateaters out there would never go

anywhere near a John Robbins book simply because they want to be able to

enjoy their bacon and eggs in the morning.

Julie

-

<Zebramoon9

 

Tuesday, February 26, 2002 5:31 AM

About Curious George and being nice...

 

 

> Julie,

>

> Maybe I am misreading it but I found the tone of your response to be kind

of

> hostile. I thought this forum was a place to discuss our views in a

> respectful way. I have seen several other posts today on other topics

that

> also seem a bit reactive. It's not what was said but the way it was said

> that bothered me. I believe that we should be kind and respectful to

others

> in postings.

>

> Regarding Curious George and Huck Finn, first let me say that while, as an

> adult, you may understand that an author is using the killing of an animal

as

> a literary device, I do not believe that a two-year-old has the cognitive

> capacity to understand that. No matter how you explain it to them, they

are

> much too concrete at that age to understand a complex, symbolic literary

> device. I do not know the details of the scene you describe in Huck Finn

> about the killing of the pig but the killing of any animal in a book -

> classic or not - would bother me on some level and I still maintain, that

> like Curious George, there is a degree of normalization of the

mistreatment

> of animals.

>

> I am not suggesting a ban on these books but for readers to look at it in

an

> enlightened way.

>

> Second, I think you misunderstood my comment. All I was saying was that

how I

> viewed Curious George as a child has changed for me as a more conscious

vegan

> adult. I understand from your post that this is not true for you. We

still

> have the books and I still explain things to my seven-year-old daughter.

If

> we come across someone fishing in a book, she usually says " Ew...I wish

they

> were vegetarian " and that is it. Some books that we started reading, like

> " Misty of Chincoteugue " (or however you spell it), we stopped reading, at

my

> daughter's request, because she didn't like how the horses were being

treated

> in the book. I have to respect this.

>

> Finally, I do not think my comments " smack of the same close-mindedness of

> some meat-eaters " . In fact, I am married to a carnivore and, if you were

> reading recent posts, I am the same vegan who wrote about the " weird

dinner

> invitation " where I offered to serve meat to some carnivores who were

coming

> to dinner and then I felt uncomfortable about it. I don't think I am

close

> minded at all.

>

> Please, if you feel strongly about something, let's try to be kind to each

> other when responding in these posts.

>

> Lisa

>

>

>

> For more information about vegetarianism, please visit the VRG website at

http://www.vrg.org and for materials especially useful for families go to

http://www.vrg.org/family.

>

>

[Guest guest]

Julie,

 

In trying to understand more about how you feel about this topic, I find it

really hard to even read your posts because the tone is so hostile.

 

Again, lets try to be kind to each other when expressing opinions in this

forum. I am really interested in what you have to say but only if it can be

in the context of a respectful dialogue.

 

Thanks,

Lisa

[Guest guest]

Julie,

 

Okay, I've been staying out of this thread, mainly beacause, to tell you the

truth, I never liked Curious George. Had nothing to do with ethics or

literary devices or anything so high fatlutin', I just always thought it was

dumb.

However Snoopy is a whole nother story. You need to understand that Snoopy's

dog house had a completely functional opening and accessible living space.

Snoopy made a clear personal (albeit weird) choice to sleep on the roof, and

we must respect his alternate lifestyle choice and not presume to tell him

that he shouldn't do it because it's bad for his back.

Pooh did eat a smackerle of things other than honey by the way. Most

anything would do if he was grumbly enough in his tumbly. Honey, of course,

was his preference.

As for the rest of it, I'm curious (but not George) how people would view my

parenting choices. I was reading Shakespeare and Dickens to my kids right

along side The Cat In the Hat and the Butter Battle Book. When my daughter

was in high school she still asked to be read to sometimes.

 

Phil Welsher

[Guest guest]

I personally am no fan of Curious George and decided

after my son was born to get rid of the Curious George

books I had as a child instead of handing them down to

him. I was surprised how many books I decided I

really didn't like anymore after reading them with

adult eyes. This does not mean he can not read

Curious George if he decides to pick it up at the

library or bookstore. I am not into 'banning' any

books, but I don't buy or keep books that I don't

enjoy (this includes adult books) or use.

 

Someone mentioned 'classics'. Just because a book is

a classic doesn't make it enjoyable or a book that I'd

like to read. I do have lots of Mark Twain, but I

can't stomach Moby Dick (we do have a copy because my

husband, who is also vegan, likes it and would like to

finish it someday...LOL). We're into unschooling and

one of the benefits I see is my son won't be told what

books are worth reading or 'classics' or award

winning, etc. I share my likes and dislikes with him

just like I do my husband, but it doesn't mean either

one of them will agree with me. We do a lot of

reading outloud as a family and this way we can share

our own favorites with each other. Ds has heard books

by Anatoli Rybakov, Graham Greene, William Kennedy,

etc. since he was born. He either listens or goes off

to play, but with books he wants to sit down and read

(or have read to him) over and over I prefer the

stories not have guns or other violent themes. I

think there is a big difference between a book with

pictures and movies and a book that allows you to

imagine the story on your own.

 

One of the books I found from my childhood was a

'Little Black Sambo' book. I have lots of friends

from India and I am surprised my parents had this book

(it was a hand-me-down from when my mom was a kid),

but it obviously didn't turn me into someone who is

anti-Indian or anything. Still I decided put the book

away and not have it out for reading. If my son (he's

two) wants to read it when he is older I don't have

any objections, but I just don't see the need to

introduce him to it at this point.

 

As much as I love books we have limited space in our

house and our lives for books so I try to only buy

books for my son that we'll both enjoy unless he

specificly asks for a book. We don't have TV and I

don't pick up books that have TV characters (no Sesame

Street, Blue's Clues, Berenstains', Winnie the Pooh,

etc.) because I find the consumerism behind the books

ruins it for me. My mom gave ds two 'Little Bill'

books which ds loves (they are a little preachy for

me, but a lot of children's books are) and I just

recently found out there was a TV program. I'm not

going to take these books away...it is not about

censorship for me it is just about making a thoughtful

decision before buying any product.

 

Just because our culture pushes certain books or

thougts doesn't mean that I need to buy them (mentally

or physically) for my family. I think ds will grow up

happy without Disney just like he'll grow up happy

without McDonalds. If he decides he wants to eat

McDonalds while watching a Disney movie then that is

his choice, but I'm not going to hand him a hamburger

and 'The Little Mermaid' to get him started. He will

find his own way through life without me controling

him or telling him what to think or do.

 

That said, while I'm the one buying most of the books

and since I get as much input from him as he can give

me at 2 yr. old....I don't tend to buy books where

bunnies wear clothes and eat milk and cookies, where

octopuses 'own' dogs, where H is for hamburger, where

you can get action figures for the characters at Toy R

Us, where the book talks down to the reader, etc. I

put as much thought into books for ds as I would for a

book I buy for myself or dh or anyone else.

 

I also end up writing my own books since there aren't

a lot of great children's books out there. Ds loves

the books we make ourselves.

 

Happy reading,

 

Linda

 

ds Parker (2/00)

dh Rob

dsister Karen lives with us and is a librarian

Savoy, IL USA

 

 

 

 

Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball

http://sports.

[Guest guest]

Loved your letter Phil! Love Snoopy too.

I am another weird parent I guess. I am reading The Hobbit, Shakespeare, and a

book about Irish history to my two ten year olds right now. We read in the

morning and again in the late afternoon and always at bedtime. Probably the

weirdest books we read together are cook books! They love helping me pick out

new recipes. They read to me and I read to them. I love it because I get to

read all the books that I loved again!

Carol

-

PhilLand

Saturday, March 02, 2002 7:39 PM

Re: About Curious George and being nice...

 

 

Julie,

 

Okay, I've been staying out of this thread, mainly beacause, to tell you the

truth, I never liked Curious George. Had nothing to do with ethics or

literary devices or anything so high fatlutin', I just always thought it was

dumb.

However Snoopy is a whole nother story. You need to understand that Snoopy's

dog house had a completely functional opening and accessible living space.

Snoopy made a clear personal (albeit weird) choice to sleep on the roof, and

we must respect his alternate lifestyle choice and not presume to tell him

that he shouldn't do it because it's bad for his back.

Pooh did eat a smackerle of things other than honey by the way. Most

anything would do if he was grumbly enough in his tumbly. Honey, of course,

was his preference.

As for the rest of it, I'm curious (but not George) how people would view my

parenting choices. I was reading Shakespeare and Dickens to my kids right

along side The Cat In the Hat and the Butter Battle Book. When my daughter

was in high school she still asked to be read to sometimes.

 

Phil Welsher

 

 

[Guest guest]

Phil,

 

I think it is so great to read to older children.

Some of my best memories of childhood were my father

reading Zoro and The Scarlet Pimpernel to my sister

and me. We were both old enough to read ourselves (my

sister is seven and a half years older than me). We

also didn't have a TV for several years...it broke and

they didn't buy a new one. We spent so much more time

as a family playing games, listening to the radio, and

reading. Lots of fun. Now that my mother is dying of

cancer it is nice to have these times to look back

on...it really makes me appreciate the reading. In

fact we read to her in the hospital now.

 

I also have a friend who reads with his son, but they

both read quietly to themselves (two copies of the

book). They read one chapter at a time so they are

always around the same place in the book and they stop

and discuss parts whenever the mood hits them.

 

Linda

 

 

 

Try FREE Mail - the world's greatest free email!

/

[Guest guest]

ROFL

 

, PhilLand@a... wrote:

> Julie,

>

> Okay, I've been staying out of this thread, mainly beacause, to

tell you the

> truth, I never liked Curious George. Had nothing to do with ethics

or

> literary devices or anything so high fatlutin', I just always

thought it was

> dumb.

> However Snoopy is a whole nother story. You need to understand

that Snoopy's

> dog house had a completely functional opening and accessible living

space.

> Snoopy made a clear personal (albeit weird) choice to sleep on the

roof, and

> we must respect his alternate lifestyle choice and not presume to

tell him

> that he shouldn't do it because it's bad for his back.

> Pooh did eat a smackerle of things other than honey by the way.

Most

> anything would do if he was grumbly enough in his tumbly. Honey,

of course,

> was his preference.

> As for the rest of it, I'm curious (but not George) how people

would view my

> parenting choices. I was reading Shakespeare and Dickens to my

kids right

> along side The Cat In the Hat and the Butter Battle Book. When my

daughter

> was in high school she still asked to be read to sometimes.

>

> Phil Welsher

[Guest guest]

Linda,

I agree with most of what you said here. We are Waldorf home

schooling our daughters (4 and 2) and I love the simplicity of it.

As a person with a moral opposition to eating meat and going to

circuses and zoos, I am uncomfortable reading books like Curious

George, but I am not going to put that on my children yet, until they

are ready to understand all the ramifications there are to this

behavior.

 

My older daughter has just started asking questions about the reality

in books--I always say that everyone is different and has different

beliefs and writes stories that reflect their beliefs and that is

OK. Just like when she visits her friend Makenzie's house they will

eat a meat burger and she will eat a veggie burger and that doesn't

make us or them better, just different, as in other aspects we are

diferent, we don't " do " tv, not for the kids anyway, and as a result

I find Madeleine and Corey weaving their own stories when they make

believe together--IMO way better than playing Barbies ;-)

 

As an ex-English major and aspiring writer I've read many of

the " classics " and still gravitated toward being a vegetarian and

waldorf teaching mom--so they can't be harmful to the psyche IMO.

 

I struggle with my beliefs continually; this is where I stand at

this moment. This thread has actually been quite educational for me

and I have enjoyed reading where everyone is on the issue, and why.

Thanks.

 

Bonnie, mom to

Madeleine (6/12/97)

Corey (12/6/99)

in Santa Cruz, CA

 

, Linda Evans <veganlinda> wrote:

> I personally am no fan of Curious George and decided

> after my son was born to get rid of the Curious George

> books I had as a child instead of handing them down to

> him. I was surprised how many books I decided I

> really didn't like anymore after reading them with

> adult eyes. This does not mean he can not read

> Curious George if he decides to pick it up at the

> library or bookstore. I am not into 'banning' any

> books, but I don't buy or keep books that I don't

> enjoy (this includes adult books) or use.

>

> Someone mentioned 'classics'. Just because a book is

> a classic doesn't make it enjoyable or a book that I'd

> like to read. I do have lots of Mark Twain, but I

> can't stomach Moby Dick (we do have a copy because my

> husband, who is also vegan, likes it and would like to

> finish it someday...LOL). We're into unschooling and

> one of the benefits I see is my son won't be told what

> books are worth reading or 'classics' or award

> winning, etc. I share my likes and dislikes with him

> just like I do my husband, but it doesn't mean either

> one of them will agree with me. We do a lot of

> reading outloud as a family and this way we can share

> our own favorites with each other. Ds has heard books

> by Anatoli Rybakov, Graham Greene, William Kennedy,

> etc. since he was born. He either listens or goes off

> to play, but with books he wants to sit down and read

> (or have read to him) over and over I prefer the

> stories not have guns or other violent themes. I

> think there is a big difference between a book with

> pictures and movies and a book that allows you to

> imagine the story on your own.

>

> One of the books I found from my childhood was a

> 'Little Black Sambo' book. I have lots of friends

> from India and I am surprised my parents had this book

> (it was a hand-me-down from when my mom was a kid),

> but it obviously didn't turn me into someone who is

> anti-Indian or anything. Still I decided put the book

> away and not have it out for reading. If my son (he's

> two) wants to read it when he is older I don't have

> any objections, but I just don't see the need to

> introduce him to it at this point.

>

> As much as I love books we have limited space in our

> house and our lives for books so I try to only buy

> books for my son that we'll both enjoy unless he

> specificly asks for a book. We don't have TV and I

> don't pick up books that have TV characters (no Sesame

> Street, Blue's Clues, Berenstains', Winnie the Pooh,

> etc.) because I find the consumerism behind the books

> ruins it for me. My mom gave ds two 'Little Bill'

> books which ds loves (they are a little preachy for

> me, but a lot of children's books are) and I just

> recently found out there was a TV program. I'm not

> going to take these books away...it is not about

> censorship for me it is just about making a thoughtful

> decision before buying any product.

>

> Just because our culture pushes certain books or

> thougts doesn't mean that I need to buy them (mentally

> or physically) for my family. I think ds will grow up

> happy without Disney just like he'll grow up happy

> without McDonalds. If he decides he wants to eat

> McDonalds while watching a Disney movie then that is

> his choice, but I'm not going to hand him a hamburger

> and 'The Little Mermaid' to get him started. He will

> find his own way through life without me controling

> him or telling him what to think or do.

>

> That said, while I'm the one buying most of the books

> and since I get as much input from him as he can give

> me at 2 yr. old....I don't tend to buy books where

> bunnies wear clothes and eat milk and cookies, where

> octopuses 'own' dogs, where H is for hamburger, where

> you can get action figures for the characters at Toy R

> Us, where the book talks down to the reader, etc. I

> put as much thought into books for ds as I would for a

> book I buy for myself or dh or anyone else.

>

> I also end up writing my own books since there aren't

> a lot of great children's books out there. Ds loves

> the books we make ourselves.

>

> Happy reading,

>

> Linda

>

> ds Parker (2/00)

> dh Rob

> dsister Karen lives with us and is a librarian

> Savoy, IL USA

>

>

>

>

> Sports - sign up for Fantasy Baseball

> http://sports.