Guest guest Posted November 22, 2005 Report Share Posted November 22, 2005 I am compelled to write this!! When I first started to do my drawing I had the definite notion that I was not doing this for my benefit because it was just too weird of a thing to do and the images that resulted were not in my own favorite aesthetic. There seemed nothing really that I got from it to aid me, but it was so compelling of a mystery that I had to keep drawing and follow where it led me. And if there was a benefit for me then maybe I would see it in the future. Half a year ago I consulted with a channeler who told me that what I am going through was for my own benefit and if others gain from it then that was an added bonus. I think this was good to hear as it helped me to embrace it and to find some amusement in delving into it. But I eventually disregarded that this was not for the benefit of others. So now I see this as something for others, but also something for me. Perhaps it all works best this way, concepts of Christian sacrifice aside. From the very beginning I knew that I was a Holy Man, that somehow I had been given this vocation based on a very organic division of labor. I didn't even have words for what I was doing but knew my experiences were related to stories of Holy Men and Women in the past. And as it was something that I was practicing everyday I knew that it was my vocation, even though I didn't know how it would develop or what form it would take in the future. The fact that I was making artifacts was very important. It wasn't just visions and experiences I was having but I was making something concrete as a result of those experiences. And as an artist I wanted my work to eventually be in the public eye. A Holy Man, in many cases, has the job of administering to the public. So the question arises, How are these useful to the vocation of a Holy Man? How is the process of making of them perhaps useful as well? This I do not know yet but I am moving in that direction. But these questions lead to another, In what way should these pieces be contextualized so that others may understand and find the benefit that may be there for them? Truthfully they are not going to understand the experiences I have in any direct manner because I know that such experiences are rare. But the art is a product of the experience, a reference of it. Do they need to know that this is a product of an ecstatic experience by someone who considers himself a Holy Man? And how should this be approached and represented? To me this is all about the relationship to those involved in the esoteric aspects of spirituality to those involved in the exoteric. It seems that the solution these days to any spiritual inquiry is to immerse oneself into esoteric practices. I think this is perhaps inappropriate. I do not think that all are suited to these pursuits and that if they pursue them they will not receive the understanding and experiences they desire because they have not been initiated. And initiation may be a matter of nature, or we could even say grace. However there are benefits available to all in the exoteric practices, that is, more generalized rituals, concepts and explanations. And I think it is in the vocation of the Holy Man to administer to the exoteric coming from the esoteric. The anointed administers to the general public, not through esoteric techniques which the general public will receive minimal benefit from or perhaps even be damaged by, but through exoteric representations. This does seem to be elitist, but it is really a matter of service, and some do not have what others are asked to give. A sort service of spiritual administration is a major definition of the vocation of a Holy Man and some are more suited to fulfill this than others. And this administration cannot happen by teaching esoteric practices because they will not be understood or utilized properly. Nor can most individuals devote enough time to the proper application of an esoteric practice as they have their own lives and vocations to address. So it is really up to the Holy Man to administer properly what so that others may receive the full benefit that is appropriate for them to receive. This is especially true about energetic work which can really only be administered from those who have the ability and know how. But this must also translate into the function and furthering of practices in ritual, contemplation and group events. Spiritual administration as the vocation of a Holy Man cannot just be energetic but must include the translation of those abilities and understandings in an appropriate representation and form that will give benefit to those whose natural abilities and perceptions are not as keen as those who give the service. I am not suggesting a solution to this challenge but stating that it must in some way be considered and addressed. Otherwise the esoteric practice is just for the benefit of the esoteric practitioner and the vocation of the Holy Man to render service of a spiritual nature to the general public will not be fulfilled. Bret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Bret speaking to the point about the question on how to make ones art which one believes has a purpose and a message in service to others, i offer these suggestions which I have done and am doing now. 1. Make an art car of your art. Several years ago I felt the need to covey a message of metta, (loving kindness) so I took my old chevy lumina and made it into the METTA MOBILE, painting images of healing and compassion on it from different traditions. Also gluing a large volume of beads, figurenes, etc all over it. I had painted images of Our lady of Guadalupe, a Navajo healing mandella, paintings of Ghandi, the Dali Lama, Ann Frank, Einsteing. Jesus, Buddha, along with pharases . The trunk had a huge angel holding a heart with light shinging out to the peoples of the world, For Happiness Cherish Others, May all beings Be Happy, Nothing is itself without anything Else were some of the large messages i painted on.On the trunk I had Jesus saying the Love your enimies quote along with one From Buddha that said the same thing., the hood had a large whale and a seascape to show the healing power of nature. This was my only car and i drove it every day. It created a continuous dialogue with people where ever i went. I would come out of the grocery store and people would be gathered around it , and we would begin to talk. I would ask questions like what images invoke compassion to you, or sometimes we would take about their reactions to what I had painted. I would come back to my car and i would find notes from people on the windshield, sometimes they left money or other items, a necklace with a cross, their cards, etc. This car finally died and I had it taken away for junk parts, I still get people asking me about it. Now I live in a small rv, and I am painting that with similar images. I only have two panels somewhat completed but I am already getting things left on the car, converstations emerging.. 2. The other way I found, when I lived in a place that had some land that bordered a public area was to make a public art garden. Mine was somewhat in the manner of WATTS Tower. Found pieces, masks i made out of palms and natural materials, paths interwoven throughtout the garden for people to explore. People would bring their own things and leave them. It was huge. I even got a local art grant to get an irrigation system. At its height some film students from the local universtiy chose it as a topic for their class film, and it was even on the agenda of some local tours. Eventually the " owners " sold the land and it was bulldozed into the flat muddy barren piece of land it is today. The basic tenets of my art was are. The public needed access to it, there was no charge, nor no money involved, other than what people offered as donations. I had to accept that it would constanlty change from the elements and that at some point it would just cease to exist. No holding on trying to keep everything perfect and preserved. Anyway is just a couple of suggestions good luck georgeann --- Bret Arenson <bretarenson wrote: > I am compelled to write this!! > > When I first started to do my drawing I had the > definite notion that I > was not doing this for my benefit because it was > just too weird of a > thing to do and the images that resulted were not in > my own favorite > aesthetic. There seemed nothing really that I got > from it to aid me, > but it was so compelling of a mystery that I had to > keep drawing and > follow where it led me. And if there was a benefit > for me then maybe I > would see it in the future. > > Half a year ago I consulted with a channeler who > told me that what I am > going through was for my own benefit and if others > gain from it then > that was an added bonus. I think this was good to > hear as it helped me > to embrace it and to find some amusement in delving > into it. But I > eventually disregarded that this was not for the > benefit of others. So > now I see this as something for others, but also > something for me. > Perhaps it all works best this way, concepts of > Christian sacrifice > aside. > > From the very beginning I knew that I was a Holy > Man, that somehow I > had been given this vocation based on a very organic > division of labor. > I didn't even have words for what I was doing but > knew my experiences > were related to stories of Holy Men and Women in the > past. And as it > was something that I was practicing everyday I knew > that it was my > vocation, even though I didn't know how it would > develop or what form > it would take in the future. > > The fact that I was making artifacts was very > important. It wasn't just > visions and experiences I was having but I was > making something > concrete as a result of those experiences. And as an > artist I wanted my > work to eventually be in the public eye. A Holy Man, > in many cases, has > the job of administering to the public. So the > question arises, How are > these useful to the vocation of a Holy Man? How is > the process of > making of them perhaps useful as well? > > This I do not know yet but I am moving in that > direction. But these > questions lead to another, In what way should these > pieces be > contextualized so that others may understand and > find the benefit that > may be there for them? Truthfully they are not going > to understand the > experiences I have in any direct manner because I > know that such > experiences are rare. But the art is a product of > the experience, a > reference of it. Do they need to know that this is a > product of an > ecstatic experience by someone who considers himself > a Holy Man? And > how should this be approached and represented? To me > this is all about > the relationship to those involved in the esoteric > aspects of > spirituality to those involved in the exoteric. > > It seems that the solution these days to any > spiritual inquiry is to > immerse oneself into esoteric practices. I think > this is perhaps > inappropriate. I do not think that all are suited to > these pursuits and > that if they pursue them they will not receive the > understanding and > experiences they desire because they have not been > initiated. And > initiation may be a matter of nature, or we could > even say grace. > However there are benefits available to all in the > exoteric practices, > that is, more generalized rituals, concepts and > explanations. And I > think it is in the vocation of the Holy Man to > administer to the > exoteric coming from the esoteric. The anointed > administers to the > general public, not through esoteric techniques > which the general > public will receive minimal benefit from or perhaps > even be damaged by, > but through exoteric representations. > > This does seem to be elitist, but it is really a > matter of service, and > some do not have what others are asked to give. A > sort service of > spiritual administration is a major definition of > the vocation of a > Holy Man and some are more suited to fulfill this > than others. And this > administration cannot happen by teaching esoteric > practices because > they will not be understood or utilized properly. > Nor can most > individuals devote enough time to the proper > application of an esoteric > practice as they have their own lives and vocations > to address. So it > is really up to the Holy Man to administer properly > what so that others > may receive the full benefit that is appropriate for > them to receive. > > This is especially true about energetic work which > can really only be > administered from those who have the ability and > know how. But this > must also translate into the function and furthering > of practices in > ritual, contemplation and group events. Spiritual > administration as the > vocation of a Holy Man cannot just be energetic but > must include the > translation of those abilities and understandings in > an appropriate > representation and form that will give benefit to > those whose natural > abilities and perceptions are not as keen as those > who give the > service. I am not suggesting a solution to this > challenge but stating > that it must in some way be considered and > addressed. Otherwise the > esoteric practice is just for the benefit of the > esoteric practitioner > and the vocation of the Holy Man to render service > of a spiritual > nature to the general public will not be fulfilled. > > Bret > > Music Unlimited Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. http://music./unlimited/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Hi Bret, I hope that I've read the correct meaning into your post as I find it has confirmed the way my path is heading at this time. I've had strong desires to help the general public by being in service to them and start a small business to reach them. I'll be offering a service that on the surface is quite acceptable to everyone in general, but underlaying it is esoteric and Kundalini based. As a spiritual person, if I only offer my services to people on a spiritual path then I'm, in many cases, already preaching to the converted. I've had strong guidence and the Universe is literally just throwing things onto my path - at my feet so I'll trip over them and stumble if I don't see them the first time *s* - with the right people, cirumstances and tools that are needed to get it out there to the general public. I agree too that each Holy Man/Woman has a particular task and vocation that will reach out to the right segment of the general public, or stay within esoteric groups to administer and help in their own special way, with their own special talent. kind regards Amaargi (Anne) > Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:15:36 -0800 > Bret Arenson <bretarenson > The relationship of the esoteric to the > exoteric > > I am compelled to write this!! > > When I first started to do my drawing I had the > definite notion that I > was not doing this for my benefit because it was > just too weird of a > thing to do and the images that resulted were not in > my own favorite > aesthetic. There seemed nothing really that I got > from it to aid me, > but it was so compelling of a mystery that I had to > keep drawing and > follow where it led me. And if there was a benefit > for me then maybe I > would see it in the future. > > Half a year ago I consulted with a channeler who > told me that what I am > going through was for my own benefit and if others > gain from it then > that was an added bonus. I think this was good to > hear as it helped me > to embrace it and to find some amusement in delving > into it. But I > eventually disregarded that this was not for the > benefit of others. So > now I see this as something for others, but also > something for me. > Perhaps it all works best this way, concepts of > Christian sacrifice > aside. > > From the very beginning I knew that I was a Holy > Man, that somehow I > had been given this vocation based on a very organic > division of labor. > I didn't even have words for what I was doing but > knew my experiences > were related to stories of Holy Men and Women in the > past. And as it > was something that I was practicing everyday I knew > that it was my > vocation, even though I didn't know how it would > develop or what form > it would take in the future. > > The fact that I was making artifacts was very > important. It wasn't just > visions and experiences I was having but I was > making something > concrete as a result of those experiences. And as an > artist I wanted my > work to eventually be in the public eye. A Holy Man, > in many cases, has > the job of administering to the public. So the > question arises, How are > these useful to the vocation of a Holy Man? How is > the process of > making of them perhaps useful as well? > > This I do not know yet but I am moving in that > direction. But these > questions lead to another, In what way should these > pieces be > contextualized so that others may understand and > find the benefit that > may be there for them? Truthfully they are not going > to understand the > experiences I have in any direct manner because I > know that such > experiences are rare. But the art is a product of > the experience, a > reference of it. Do they need to know that this is a > product of an > ecstatic experience by someone who considers himself > a Holy Man? And > how should this be approached and represented? To me > this is all about > the relationship to those involved in the esoteric > aspects of > spirituality to those involved in the exoteric. > > It seems that the solution these days to any > spiritual inquiry is to > immerse oneself into esoteric practices. I think > this is perhaps > inappropriate. I do not think that all are suited to > these pursuits and > that if they pursue them they will not receive the > understanding and > experiences they desire because they have not been > initiated. And > initiation may be a matter of nature, or we could > even say grace. > However there are benefits available to all in the > exoteric practices, > that is, more generalized rituals, concepts and > explanations. And I > think it is in the vocation of the Holy Man to > administer to the > exoteric coming from the esoteric. The anointed > administers to the > general public, not through esoteric techniques > which the general > public will receive minimal benefit from or perhaps > even be damaged by, > but through exoteric representations. > > This does seem to be elitist, but it is really a > matter of service, and > some do not have what others are asked to give. A > sort service of > spiritual administration is a major definition of > the vocation of a > Holy Man and some are more suited to fulfill this > than others. And this > administration cannot happen by teaching esoteric > practices because > they will not be understood or utilized properly. > Nor can most > individuals devote enough time to the proper > application of an esoteric > practice as they have their own lives and vocations > to address. So it > is really up to the Holy Man to administer properly > what so that others > may receive the full benefit that is appropriate for > them to receive. > > This is especially true about energetic work which > can really only be > administered from those who have the ability and > know how. But this > must also translate into the function and furthering > of practices in > ritual, contemplation and group events. Spiritual > administration as the > vocation of a Holy Man cannot just be energetic but > must include the > translation of those abilities and understandings in > an appropriate > representation and form that will give benefit to > those whose natural > abilities and perceptions are not as keen as those > who give the > service. I am not suggesting a solution to this > challenge but stating > that it must in some way be considered and > addressed. Otherwise the > esoteric practice is just for the benefit of the > esoteric practitioner > and the vocation of the Holy Man to render service > of a spiritual > nature to the general public will not be fulfilled. > > Bret __ The New Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full Actor Database. http://au.movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 24, 2005 Report Share Posted November 24, 2005 Dear Anne Concerning a business as a service I believe is a little in the illusionary path. As a business it helps people to remain as people. I would rather consider naming it as a ministry, if i was to name it. This would be more appropriate description of a service of intention and that you receive funds by way of donation, All though you may set a required donation for those who can afford it. Though in no means mandatory Just my thoughts that all I hope it helps. I have 8 people for class Monday night they have suggested to pay me $ 10 each. I told them I will take a box they can put in to what that want to or don't want to. I will accept it as a gift without any accounting. Om tat sat om Jaganatha - amaargi Friday, November 25, 2005 11:07 AM Re: The relationship of the esoteric to the exoteric Hi Bret, I hope that I've read the correct meaning into your post as I find it has confirmed the way my path is heading at this time. I've had strong desires to help the general public by being in service to them and start a small business to reach them. I'll be offering a service that on the surface is quite acceptable to everyone in general, but underlaying it is esoteric and Kundalini based. As a spiritual person, if I only offer my services to people on a spiritual path then I'm, in many cases, already preaching to the converted. I've had strong guidence and the Universe is literally just throwing things onto my path - at my feet so I'll trip over them and stumble if I don't see them the first time *s* - with the right people, cirumstances and tools that are needed to get it out there to the general public. I agree too that each Holy Man/Woman has a particular task and vocation that will reach out to the right segment of the general public, or stay within esoteric groups to administer and help in their own special way, with their own special talent. kind regards Amaargi (Anne) > Tue, 22 Nov 2005 18:15:36 -0800 > Bret Arenson <bretarenson > The relationship of the esoteric to the > exoteric > > I am compelled to write this!! > > When I first started to do my drawing I had the > definite notion that I > was not doing this for my benefit because it was > just too weird of a > thing to do and the images that resulted were not in > my own favorite > aesthetic. There seemed nothing really that I got > from it to aid me, > but it was so compelling of a mystery that I had to > keep drawing and > follow where it led me. And if there was a benefit > for me then maybe I > would see it in the future. > > Half a year ago I consulted with a channeler who > told me that what I am > going through was for my own benefit and if others > gain from it then > that was an added bonus. I think this was good to > hear as it helped me > to embrace it and to find some amusement in delving > into it. But I > eventually disregarded that this was not for the > benefit of others. So > now I see this as something for others, but also > something for me. > Perhaps it all works best this way, concepts of > Christian sacrifice > aside. > > From the very beginning I knew that I was a Holy > Man, that somehow I > had been given this vocation based on a very organic > division of labor. > I didn't even have words for what I was doing but > knew my experiences > were related to stories of Holy Men and Women in the > past. And as it > was something that I was practicing everyday I knew > that it was my > vocation, even though I didn't know how it would > develop or what form > it would take in the future. > > The fact that I was making artifacts was very > important. It wasn't just > visions and experiences I was having but I was > making something > concrete as a result of those experiences. And as an > artist I wanted my > work to eventually be in the public eye. A Holy Man, > in many cases, has > the job of administering to the public. So the > question arises, How are > these useful to the vocation of a Holy Man? How is > the process of > making of them perhaps useful as well? > > This I do not know yet but I am moving in that > direction. But these > questions lead to another, In what way should these > pieces be > contextualized so that others may understand and > find the benefit that > may be there for them? Truthfully they are not going > to understand the > experiences I have in any direct manner because I > know that such > experiences are rare. But the art is a product of > the experience, a > reference of it. Do they need to know that this is a > product of an > ecstatic experience by someone who considers himself > a Holy Man? And > how should this be approached and represented? To me > this is all about > the relationship to those involved in the esoteric > aspects of > spirituality to those involved in the exoteric. > > It seems that the solution these days to any > spiritual inquiry is to > immerse oneself into esoteric practices. I think > this is perhaps > inappropriate. I do not think that all are suited to > these pursuits and > that if they pursue them they will not receive the > understanding and > experiences they desire because they have not been > initiated. And > initiation may be a matter of nature, or we could > even say grace. > However there are benefits available to all in the > exoteric practices, > that is, more generalized rituals, concepts and > explanations. And I > think it is in the vocation of the Holy Man to > administer to the > exoteric coming from the esoteric. The anointed > administers to the > general public, not through esoteric techniques > which the general > public will receive minimal benefit from or perhaps > even be damaged by, > but through exoteric representations. > > This does seem to be elitist, but it is really a > matter of service, and > some do not have what others are asked to give. A > sort service of > spiritual administration is a major definition of > the vocation of a > Holy Man and some are more suited to fulfill this > than others. And this > administration cannot happen by teaching esoteric > practices because > they will not be understood or utilized properly. > Nor can most > individuals devote enough time to the proper > application of an esoteric > practice as they have their own lives and vocations > to address. So it > is really up to the Holy Man to administer properly > what so that others > may receive the full benefit that is appropriate for > them to receive. > > This is especially true about energetic work which > can really only be > administered from those who have the ability and > know how. But this > must also translate into the function and furthering > of practices in > ritual, contemplation and group events. Spiritual > administration as the > vocation of a Holy Man cannot just be energetic but > must include the > translation of those abilities and understandings in > an appropriate > representation and form that will give benefit to > those whose natural > abilities and perceptions are not as keen as those > who give the > service. I am not suggesting a solution to this > challenge but stating > that it must in some way be considered and > addressed. Otherwise the > esoteric practice is just for the benefit of the > esoteric practitioner > and the vocation of the Holy Man to render service > of a spiritual > nature to the general public will not be fulfilled. > > Bret __ The New Movies: Check out the Latest Trailers, Premiere Photos and full Actor Database. http://au.movies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 25, 2005 Report Share Posted November 25, 2005 Hi John, Thanks for your suggestions and I understand your view point completely. I too in the past have taught workshops, done readings, healings etc all with a spiritual heart and only accepted anonymous donations people placed in a box. What I'm doing now is a business and will be operated as such with tax registration, business name registration and set fees charged in accordance to a well researched business and marketing plan. When it all became too hard for me the Universe sent me an understanding and open minded, very experienced Business Manager to help me...I couldn't deny the 'signs' as the plan unfolded in my life. Must make you shudder and shiver heh? Such blatent materialsim...you would shudder even more if you knew how much a consultation costs...it's the high end of the market.... If this raises any strong feelings within you then maybe you should look at them.....why do you feel this way? I'm paying Ceaser what Ceaser is due...and I love and accept the Tax man as well...if you want to add a religious context to it..I'm sure Buddha and other great Sages would have appropriate quotes as well, for and against...so lets not get into a debate *s* This is also part of the learning for us all....one of the difficult ones we deal with....materialism and money....poverty consciousness... Of course, I've already gone through this debate internally as the business was unfolding before me and without any doubt at all....confirmed repeatedly to me so that I understood it clearly....this is the way it's supposed to be. So I trust in what is happening and will go with the flow as always.....the future will unfold as it does... It is a ministry....if it unfolds as I've been shown then every household and every workplace will have a prayer room or tranquility zone. It's handing the power back to the people...to go within....find God/Buddah/Allah/ etc etc within. For it's only within that the truth will be known. Thats where Heaven/Nirvana is....that's where the Guru/God/Goddess is....it's in our hearts...that's where the Truth is. Helping people discern for themselves without the brainwashing and fear that is expressed in many of the orthodox religions... I'll get off my soap box now So be it.. love Amaargi > Fri, 25 Nov 2005 11:53:22 +1100 > " john mathieson " > <j.mathieson > Re: The relationship of the esoteric to the > exoteric > > Dear Anne > Concerning a business as a service I believe is a > little in the illusionary path. As a business it > helps people to remain as people. I would rather > consider naming it as a ministry, if i was to name > it. This would be more appropriate description of a > service of intention and that you receive funds by > way of donation, All though you may set a required > donation for those who can afford it. Though in no > means mandatory > Just my thoughts that all I hope it helps. > > I have 8 people for class Monday night they have > suggested to pay me $ 10 each. I told them I will > take a box they can put in to what that want to or > don't want to. I will accept it as a gift without > any accounting. > Om tat sat om > Jaganatha > __ Find a local business fast with Local Search http://au.local. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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