lineage - wants vs needs

[Guest guest]

Hi Bret,

 

I hope you don't mind that I reply to the group and to you privately

as I feel There are some points that would help others.

 

, Bret Arenson

<bretarenson wrote:

>

> Hi Anne-

>

> I can relate to this. I think I am greatly vacillating between

> surrender and resistance, the more surrender the more resistance. I

> have done some work and am more open but the result is not a

comfort, .

> What comes doesn't address my wants. It seems to want to transcend

> them, by pass them, as if they have no relevance at all.

 

This is one of the hardest lessons with K - the difference between

what we 'want' and what we 'need'. When I was shown this I could see

it was the best for me and my personal growth.

 

Wanting is desire, it's what we think we need to make us happy and

content.

 

Need is what we get. Surrendering to it is hard as 'need' is very

different.

 

We need to let go of things we don't want to, we need to clear things

that are too painful to be remembered etc etc.

 

Getting what we need, though hard, is how we will find contentment

and enlightement. The harder part is that it is continuous and will

not be completed until we reach Perfection. It may be in this

lifetime or another, depends on where we are when we were born.

 

To reach Perfection is hard because we have to clear every aspect of

the human personality...which means no self doubts, no jealousies, no

cravings or envy etc etc...

 

What I have found is that K on one hand seems to have an intelligence

and will clear us while still allowing us to continue some form of

ordinary life.

 

On the other hand it's appears to be mechanical and without empathy

or underestanding of the need to be human. It will do whatever it

has to do to get to the goal of uniting Shiva/Shakti Ying/Yang...and

to find the connection with God/Creator etc.

 

I'm sure someone who has studied the process in detail would have a

better explanation of this than I...I can only speak from what I've

experienced.

 

The biggest part of understanding surrender is that we don't get what

we want...we get what we need...and because we don't usually know

what we need we just have to trust and see what happens.

 

> I get a bigger

> sense of spirit, mine or otherwise, I do not know either like you.

It

> is still very subtle like a muffled voice which has just gotten

louder.

> It is like a different body that is round and impermeable, spacious

but

> hard. I cannot identify with it, it is beyond personality and in so

> very impersonal. It cannot address my wants, there is nothing there

to

> want and no way of wanting it. If this is me it is very different

than

> me.

 

It doesn't sound like it is you. As you see by my posts to meet

ourselves, or parts of our inner self is clearly identified and you

have reactions to it emotionally.

 

>

> My yearnings in life are still great and I am passing a very lonely

> time. I feel a need to divest from all yearnings that now I think

of as

> false promises, forgoing pursuing what would be considered certain

> expected and well adjusted relationships. I am very irritated with

most

> interactions. Most people I cannot understand anymore, it is like

they

> are speaking gibberish. I don't sense they get what I say either.

 

It's hard to discern between forgoing relationships because they

aren't healthy for us.....or not persuing them because of inner

fears, or wounds that haven't healed yet.

 

Not interacting with people could be becuse time is needed

alone....or we use this as a barrier not to face something within us.

 

 

> People also respond to something in me that I know is there but

which I

> don't seem to be able to manifest in my manner and personality and

they

> get disappointed to find that I am not what they thought I was.

They

> often don't understand how it is emanating and get confused from

their

> expectation of how it should be, which must make them

uncomfortable.

 

People only see reflections of themselves in us....or parts of

themselves that they are lacking inside. So they expect it from you

to fulfill the part in them that's missing.

 

Maybe if you looked at working more on the solar plexus area you

won't emanate out to them with your energy....this way they won't get

confused with who they are....and who you are.

 

 

> What I most want from others now as far as interaction is to play

> music, good music. This I can see as a relationship that can

nurture

> me.

 

 

I really believe it will. I was shown this myself and though I've

found it hard to achieve, maybe you will find it easier.

 

Focus in on the music....totaly empty your mind of all thoughts and

completely focus in on every instrument, voice etc. Focusing in like

this will help you bring your energies in and stop them from

emanating out, confusing others.

 

The goal is that eventually you will hear between the notes of the

music a silence....like the silence between your own hearbeat...and

thats where you will find God/Goddess/Creator. It's more than that

but I'll leave it for you to try...words fail when trying to describe

what it is that you'll find.

 

This will help you in your art possibly too. As you focus in like

this the music will take on other dimensions...you will be able

to 'taste' it, 'smell' it....and more. It develops us so soon we

will smell a colour, hear the light, taste a sound.

 

 

> I have a great push to become more reclusive and this I think is

not

> outside of the plan for me. I will continue my service, which now

> consists of standing outside of the supermarket and giving all who

pass

> a blessing with my special personal prayer, words of gratitude to

my

> personal name of the Goddess. This is something that I know is

> powerful. I can feel it working on me and going out from me. I

don't

> know what it is but I know it is functioning. However this is not

> something I can own in my personality and if one were to say how

> beautiful this is or something else similar this would seem so

absurd

> to me in the context of what it is. It just doesn't apply. I can be

> what the spirit moves me to be, I just cannot make it part of my

> personality and cannot abide others responding as if it were. I

accept

> the anonymousness of my spiritual interaction with the world and

> believe I need to learn how to present it this way even with making

> public my art. Deference I see as a virtue.

 

Yes...yet...don't you believe that you too are the Light...the Love?

 

>

> I am going to go off list. There are too many words for me now and

very

> little penetrates. The surrender that seems to be wanted is very

great

> and I need to divorce myself from any desire of support with it. If

you

> want to write me, please do so directly.

>

> Bret

 

Thank you Bret, because by sitting and replying to your post has

helped me remember some things I've been shown. This has brought

answers to questions I had this morning...it has helped me clear a

problem I was having.

 

with love

Amaargi

[Guest guest]

A remarkable exchange for the truths and difficulties that are

discussed. You are correct Anne, imho, regarding the needs and wants

and the intelligence of the Kundalini. The K is dispassionate in its

goal oriented single minded drive to change the person.

Enlightenment is not easy. Like the ecstasy, the body and mind can

only demonstrate so much before an overload is appreciated.

 

No one is expected to teach. Nobody is expected to give up life and

family and job and the personal idiosyncratics that make us who we

are. It may occur. There are no expectations heaped upon you. This

in and of itself can be confusing as this lack of expectation can be

felt as a rudderless voyage into God knows where and the trust

quotient is just too high. The surrendering is without regard to how

we will deal with what is happening to us. It is just what it is.

What we do with our feelings and interactions is our personal choice

and people will sense something different about a K active person.

That difference will spark curiosity and as time is spent around

that person their soul will want that difference as evolution will

call them to it.

 

They may see that person as a teacher or a leader or some one with

charisma or someone shrouded in deep mystic Guru type qualities. Or

not at all. People will catagorize as they feel compelled too. The

Kundalini doesnt care, unless you commit abuses and then your higher

self will use the K as an instrument of learning. (heh)

 

Resistance is caused by the self wanting to be itself. Not embracing

change and not allowing for the new energetic aspects of personality

to take form. " Life is good lets just go on as before. " Fear of

being swallowed into something much larger and unknown is also an

addition to resistance. With in the parameters of the enlightening

process the resisitance will determine, for the person able to

separate ego from conciousness, where the work in releasing is

needed. Where the wheels need oiling. Resistance comes with its own

types of pain and pleasure, as Anne so correctly describes

the " focusing in " is an aspect of surrender that will relieve

anxiety. On the other hand denying the energetics will lead to

paranoia and physical pain. The Kundalini will not retreat. It is

here within you for the rest of your life. Sometimes early on in the

activation a person can be releived but it will still burn, like an

ember, at the base of the spine.

 

 

A time of solitude is not a bad idea. It can clarify and sharpen the

persons understanding and direction with in the flow. Knowing, just

knowing that there are others out there experienceing similar trials

and triumphs is HUGE!

 

So yes Bret go offlist or better yet, just stop taking e-mail that

you may partake at a later time of the thoughts and experiences of

those in this and other groups. Solitude is a healing. Be a hermit

for a time. Be a hermit from your yearnings, and your wants, and

from us. But know that you are loved by us and missed by us, and we

look forward to your presence among us once again love-peace-

harmony- chrism

[Guest guest]

Chrism,

Although the passage quoted below was not addressed to me,

there is a question here that's on my mind (cont'd below):

 

" " <> wrote:

> No one is expected to teach. Nobody is expected to give up life

and

> family and job and the personal idiosyncratics that make us

who we

> are. It may occur. There are no expectations heaped upon you.

This

> in and of itself can be confusing as this lack of expectation can

be

> felt as a rudderless voyage into God knows where and the trust

> quotient is just too high.

 

What concerns me -- and I don't think there's an easy answer --

is the balance between doing something for oneself (with or

without help) vs. doing for others. Someone asked me once why

I did such-and-such for myself -- why not adopt the Buddhist

ideal of the Bodhisattva, who dedicates his life to the benefit of

humanity? And my response was, well, he had to become a

Bodhisattva first before he could be of much benefit, right?

Anyway I'm a teacher, but I teach a bunch of trivial stuff because

that's all I'm paid to teach and, as far as our society is

concerned, it's all I'm technically qualified to teach. If someone

speaks out about something that's not their specialization, it

tends to be rejected and resented (and yet we elect B-movie

actors to run our state govt -- well, let's let that pass...).

As you said, lack of expectation can be confusing. But as a

teacher, I can only hope that at some stage in this voyage, I'll be

able to put whatever knowledge or abilities I have or acquire to

good use -- good for someone other than just myself. I tend to be

critical of others who, having written or created something great

earlier in their lives, seem not to have progressed since. I think:

why is that person still doing the same thing 20 or 30 years later,

hasn't s/he grown a bit? But maybe the growth has been in

some " blind spot " -- something that can be measured karmically

(simply by doing what one is here to do), if that's possible, and

not in ways obvious from outward appearances (here we could

go back to the Ramakrishna anecdote -- you know, if he couldn't

even shake his chocolate habit... well let him eat chocolate, we

can try to emulate him without guilty feelings about our own

chocolate habits!)

Well, I'm having a hard time getting to the point tonight, just kinda

going in circles...

John E

[Guest guest]

Thank you John E. for your questions and honesty. I will address the questions

below in between your concerns. Please read on.....

 

nologo3 <esposito wrote: Chrism,

Although the passage quoted below was not addressed to me,

there is a question here that's on my mind (contd below):

 

" " <> wrote:

> No one is expected to teach. Nobody is expected to give up life

and

> family and job and the personal idiosyncratics that make us

who we

> are. It may occur. There are no expectations heaped upon you.

This

> in and of itself can be confusing as this lack of expectation can

be

> felt as a rudderless voyage into God knows where and the trust

> quotient is just too high.

 

What concerns me -- and I don't think there's an easy answer --

is the balance between doing something for oneself (with or

without help) vs. doing for others.

 

@@ When you do service for others you do service for yourself. As a teacher

you must have experienced at least once the fire of understanding come into the

eyes of a student who after long travail had at last reached the clarity of

understanding. You saw and felt their personal triumph and the joy at the

victory long sought. And you know and understand that it was you who helped them

to understand. You gave them the tools to succeed and so they did. You put in

the time and the effort, to become a teacher and you gave and give to your

students the tools they need to make their lives what they wish to make of them.

Regardless of the subject being taught. It is the interest and the day to day

work and the day to day sacrifice, that counts. Not the paycheck in the eyes of

a student. In your eyes yes, it pays rent and allows for survival. But the

student, no. They care about how you teach and what they can do with HOW you

teach. They know they must learn to make the grade they want and

so it is you who holds portions of their future in your hands. And if you do

the best you can not all of them will get it. But some will. It is to those that

your service is rendered. It is with those kids who hold a portion of your

future in their hands.@@

 

 

 

Someone asked me once why

I did such-and-such for myself -- why not adopt the Buddhist

ideal of the Bodhisattva, who dedicates his life to the benefit of

humanity? And my response was, well, he had to become a

Bodhisattva first before he could be of much benefit, right?

@@ It takes many droplets to form a pond and many ponds to form a lake and

many lakes to form a sea. Intentional acts are droplets forming a sea. The

Bodhisattva is a sea that started as a droplet.@@

 

 

Anyway I'm a teacher, but I teach a bunch of trivial stuff because

that's all I'm paid to teach and, as far as our society is

concerned, it's all I'm technically qualified to teach. If someone

speaks out about something that's not their specialization, it

tends to be rejected and resented

 

@@ Its not what you teach but how you teach. Learning is a process of interest

and discovery. Teaching a person to chew gum might sound boring ...until you add

the many flavors...@@

 

 

 

(and yet we elect B-movie

actors to run our state govt -- well, let's let that pass...).

As you said, lack of expectation can be confusing. But as a

teacher, I can only hope that at some stage in this voyage, I'll be

able to put whatever knowledge or abilities I have or acquire to

good use -- good for someone other than just myself.

 

@@ You already have and do and hopefully will continue. Raise your self-esteem

and collect the triumphs that you have earned. Think outside of academia and

know that your presence has had strong effect on many whether you choose

acknowledge it or not. Learning is not subject driven. @@

 

 

 

I tend to be

critical of others who, having written or created something great

earlier in their lives, seem not to have progressed since. I think:

why is that person still doing the same thing 20 or 30 years later,

hasn't s/he grown a bit?

 

@@ You are drifting from your concerns here. Say it. Are you concerned for

yourself or another? If your concerns are driven by shame, the Kundalini will

allow you wisdom and knowledge to help you understand if your not too engrossed

in the egotistic aspect of it. Perhaps you should begin to write your book.@@

 

But maybe the growth has been in

some " blind spot " -- something that can be measured karmically

(simply by doing what one is here to do), if that's possible, and

not in ways obvious from outward appearances

 

@@ There is always change you choose to make retarded or progressive. @@

 

(here we could

go back to the Ramakrishna anecdote -- you know, if he couldn't

even shake his chocolate habit... well let him eat chocolate, we

can try to emulate him without guilty feelings about our own

chocolate habits!)

 

@@ Yes i would have let him eat chocolate but it was his decision as well as

the student. @@

 

Well, I'm having a hard time getting to the point tonight, just kinda

going in circles...

 

@@ I feel your concerns John. As do others here. I will wait for you to speak

them. Its the intention that counts in the long run. As you begin to transform

you will understand more clearly. Your concerns will remain until you absolve

the source so no worries time will tell. @@

 

chrism

 

John E

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi John,

 

Thanks for sharing your concerns. A couple of thoughts: Soon you'll

get to the point where doing things for others will be the same as (or

better than) doing things for yourself. It'll be both effortless and a

source of profound joy. As this happens, you'll become more forgiving

and willing to accept others without passing judgements, because

you'll feel that you are connected to them on more than one level.

It's not just about gratifying yourself, though. It's about igniting a

larger positive transformation, one good deed at the time. Good vibes

are tremendously contagious!

 

Regarding academics who have been kicking around the same research

question for 20 years: I hear you (hehehe)! However, these are people

who might have developed areas of their lives that escape the public

eye. Regardless of how much enthusiasm we put into this profession in

the beginning, at some point most of us realize that this is just a

job, and not the reason to live (a healthy realization, indeed). As to

being a teacher: there are so many ways you can touch your students'

lives aside from assigning readings and grading papers. But I am sure

you have already experienced this.

 

Love and light,

 

Sel

 

, " nologo3 "

<esposito wrote:

>

> Chrism,

> Although the passage quoted below was not addressed to me,

> there is a question here that's on my mind (cont'd below):

>

> " " <@> wrote:

> > No one is expected to teach. Nobody is expected to give up life

> and

> > family and job and the personal idiosyncratics that make us

> who we

> > are. It may occur. There are no expectations heaped upon you.

> This

> > in and of itself can be confusing as this lack of expectation can

> be

> > felt as a rudderless voyage into God knows where and the trust

> > quotient is just too high.

>

> What concerns me -- and I don't think there's an easy answer --

> is the balance between doing something for oneself (with or

> without help) vs. doing for others. Someone asked me once why

> I did such-and-such for myself -- why not adopt the Buddhist

> ideal of the Bodhisattva, who dedicates his life to the benefit of

> humanity? And my response was, well, he had to become a

> Bodhisattva first before he could be of much benefit, right?

> Anyway I'm a teacher, but I teach a bunch of trivial stuff because

> that's all I'm paid to teach and, as far as our society is

> concerned, it's all I'm technically qualified to teach. If someone

> speaks out about something that's not their specialization, it

> tends to be rejected and resented (and yet we elect B-movie

> actors to run our state govt -- well, let's let that pass...).

> As you said, lack of expectation can be confusing. But as a

> teacher, I can only hope that at some stage in this voyage, I'll be

> able to put whatever knowledge or abilities I have or acquire to

> good use -- good for someone other than just myself. I tend to be

> critical of others who, having written or created something great

> earlier in their lives, seem not to have progressed since. I think:

> why is that person still doing the same thing 20 or 30 years later,

> hasn't s/he grown a bit? But maybe the growth has been in

> some " blind spot " -- something that can be measured karmically

> (simply by doing what one is here to do), if that's possible, and

> not in ways obvious from outward appearances (here we could

> go back to the Ramakrishna anecdote -- you know, if he couldn't

> even shake his chocolate habit... well let him eat chocolate, we

> can try to emulate him without guilty feelings about our own

> chocolate habits!)

> Well, I'm having a hard time getting to the point tonight, just kinda

> going in circles...

> John E

>

[Guest guest]

Sel wrote:

> being a teacher: there are so many ways you can touch your students'

> lives aside from assigning readings and grading papers. But I am sure

you have already experienced this.

 

Yes, in many ways -- but not always positive. Years ago, I developed

more of what I called a political and social conscience, and tried to

reach my students in ways sometimes not related to my field of study. A

difficult lesson for me ( " don't try making an anti-war speech to a

bunch of students who lived on or near a marine base! " ). I've become

more restrained in recent years...

BTW, what field are you in, Sel? (Mine is linguistics, which usually

amounts to teaching ESL)

[Guest guest]

, chrism

<> wrote:

> I tend to be

> critical of others who, having written or created something great

> earlier in their lives, seem not to have progressed since. I think:

> why is that person still doing the same thing 20 or 30 years later,

> hasn't s/he grown a bit?

>

> @@ You are drifting from your concerns here. Say it. Are you

concerned for yourself or another?

 

Concerned with my/our tendencies to compare ourselves with others.

This was an extension of the question of the comparison

between " improvement of the self " and " service of others " . On the

surface, a person usually appears to be doing one or the other where of

course they may be doing both.

This sort of thing is the root of so many misunderstandings. Followers

of one path often fail to see the progress that other are making on

different paths. Those on the paths of knowledge, devotion, warriors,

monks and magicians (the five traditional western paths, some of which

correspond to jnana yoga, karma yoga, etc.) may for a time hold the

belief that they're doing it the right way (this is all too apparent in

lots of internet groups -- this group is an exception)-- and someone

like Gurdjieff comes along says they're all too one-dimensional, and

he's probably right -- but there's only so much that a person can

choose to focus on in one lifetime (provided one accepts the doctrine

of reincarnation)...

 

John E

[Guest guest]

Hi John,

 

I know what you mean--as an anthropologist, I always start my theory

class by teaching Marx and Engels. That's not me being a commie--it's

the way the discipline began. Last year a failing student dragged me to

the dean's office for " corrupting young minds " (LOL!). For most

students, however, learning about ideology and the social, economic,

and political dynamics underlying inequality is an eye-opener.

 

Love & light,

 

Sel

 

, " nologo3 "

<esposito wrote:

>

> Sel wrote:

> > being a teacher: there are so many ways you can touch your students'

> > lives aside from assigning readings and grading papers. But I am

sure

> you have already experienced this.

>

> Yes, in many ways -- but not always positive. Years ago, I developed

> more of what I called a political and social conscience, and tried to

> reach my students in ways sometimes not related to my field of study.

A

> difficult lesson for me ( " don't try making an anti-war speech to a

> bunch of students who lived on or near a marine base! " ). I've become

> more restrained in recent years...

> BTW, what field are you in, Sel? (Mine is linguistics, which usually

> amounts to teaching ESL)

>

[Guest guest]

There are streams of knowledge that will fill you John. They are huge and

glorious. the human soul /spirit/ conciousness is well equipped to handle vast

amounts of knowledge/wisdom/information, my hope is you will oipen to recieve

this - but only as you can leap into darkenss to find the Sun. - c