Your post on Harsha Sanga (delete my previos mail, this is the right version)

August 11, 2007

Hello Richard,

The words which will follow this

paragraph are not the result of any bad emotions, or to "Ganapati

Shastri" syndrome (Ramana's former disciple, he is dead), who was very

educated (too much for his good) and he always wanted to change the

world, not himself. I have only a bunch of questions, I don't want to

be your rival, or something like that. I am an ordinary jerk. But

something bothers me. And I am going to say that, no matter what will

happen. Because I don't need anyone to lead me, I had 10 years of hell,

to be alone and to try following Ramana, that is more than hard. I

finished my quest. I must only wait my time and to clear some

questions, to continue practice. That is all.

I know what you want to say to me: that

I have too long mails. : )

You are right. You prefer the silence. OK. But why you have some

quotes, sometimes very long, if you like silence? OK, if you are the

owner of the group, you must preach a bit. But, the members of this

group, are they really ignorant? Ramana is not so famous guru. Not as

Sri Chimoy, Osho, Maharishi Mahesh Yogi , Sai Baba,..., they

are/were superstars. I haven't heard about Ramana for a long time. So,

anyone who is in this group don't need preaching. That is my opinion.

But many people needs guidance. Not to quote and feel 'I am so

different and divine', but to exchange some experiences, to resolve

some questions. That I call 'the practice'. Questions are very

important. Gjana is not simply 'knowledge'. It is digested, lived,

examined,... If it was the opposite, everyone could read 10 books and

be gjani. But, it doesn't work like that.

What are the questions I am talking

about? There are many of them. I know that all people who like Ramana,

can feel advaita (impersonal path) as 'my path'. But, I can't see that

many people go further. I know several Ramana's 'people', but they are

that just by name, there is nothing essential in their lives related to

Ramana. IT. Silence. It looks like reading some book, we have some

doubts at first, but we are involved in this reading, so we accept

everything what we read.

So, the first question for us: we

understand and feel Ramana (or any impersonal path), but, do we really

want to lose 'ourselves'? We know how our mind is destructive, but...,

are we really ready to get rid of 'us'? Our bad or good features?

Because we used to call it 'us'. Does sage's ego dies completely or

not? If it is, are we ready to lose it? Is some sage a moron, if his

mind don't work as ours? We have some informations, that sages use

their mind (as Jidu Krishnamurti says: the technical knowledge) as a

nice tool to solve everyday problems, but in meantime it is very

peaceful. Do you really believe this? I have a friend, from the USA, he

is more than great, even I've never met him, he is on the other side of

the globe, Hawaii. He has big problems to resolve that question: what

happens with ego after self - realization? He thinks that some part of

ego never dies. So, it is his obstacle. He doesn't perform any

practice, so he will stay without any resolution of his question. I had

a lot of trouble with it. Personal religions (they believe that there

is God as person) consider impersonal path nothing as a suicide. To go

in void. Everyone must resolve this question, or there is no real

understanding, no step forward.

If we talk about sages and ego, have

you (all group members) ever read about the final stage of self -

realization? It is the same as the question about ego, but more

drastic. It is like dying. Ramana had a terrible fear of death. His

disciple, Paul Brunton was in a whirlpool, and he fainted. A lot of

fear. Because it is really some kind of dying! In any aspect. Echart

Tolle, the teacher from the West, the same story. Fear, great fear, and

the voice: "Give up yourself". In energetic way, if we believe that UG

Krishnamurti is a sage, he claims that every cell in his body was like

in a big fire. His body structure has changes for a day. I know about

some Zen monks, who had some very dramatic 'awakening'. Are you ready

for this? I had that experiences two times. I had no courage to go

forward. Next time, I'll jump, no matter what. Because I resolved the

question. Some of us must die, but I we can't know which part. We must

only clear this situation, that it is not the game. As Anthony de Mello

says: "The most of the people don't want to awake, because it is too

painful. They only need some improvement in their life? Do you want to

awake, or just to make some adjustments? It is OK, but you should know

your motives.

(regarding to energetic things in a sage:

we all have two energetic channels, ida and pingala, so every 2 hours

one of our nostrils has some kind of obstruction, one is more opened.

Our chakras are the points where that two channels have the

intersection. But, sages have opened the central channel, sushumna.

Symptom: they are sages : ), and their nostrils work perfectly, without

any oscillations every 2 hours).

How to perform atma vichara? I am

amazed how nobody asks it. It took me 10 years to find the way how to

practice it. Too push too hard (3 hours of vichara) is very hard, and I

couldn't do even a minute in the next several months), or to sit down

and to daydream? I was so unhappy, that I mailed several Buddhist

temples with the same request: 'give me some guidance, I can't find any

joy in my practice.' But, vichara has it! If we do it properly, there

is no need to be like somebody is died. Vichara is also stress - relief

routine. It should be, if it is a complete practice. It won't chase any

extreme, bliss/misery, because if we chase any polarity, the second one

will come with it. To be 'positive' means that our unconscious mind

will have darkness, which will explode when the pressure becomes too

high. Don't say that it is heretic from my side, because Ramana has

never explain his method in details. OK, the core is known, but is

vichara rigid, joyless, full of effort (and nothing else) practice? We

are all different, we should tailor method (guru should do it, but who

doesn't have one...) by our needs, not vice versa. Ramana did it all

the time.

The question of the spiritual heart.

Some 'authors' in internet say that vichara has nothing with our

spiritual heart. It seems that they didn't read any Ramana's book and

they are ready to preach. Self is not in our body, at some particular

place, but the most powerful feeling of IT is where Ramana says. So,

what do you think? Should we stay in our head (if we are not in our

heart, we are in our head) or in our heart? Not as a primary focus, but

at least 1% of our attention must be there. And it is there, when the

silence is present. We are 'inside', but not inside our head.

Or, the question which should be

asked first: "Do you really want to be a sage? Or you just waste your

time in reading?" Put some additional burden on your back. Ramana says:

"One of the biggest obstacles is when you say 'I didn't accomplished'."

But: "I want to be a sage, to be self - realized", is the same

obstacle. As one Zen sage says: "There is ONE, but don't be attached

even to that one." : ) It is a great paradox: to stay on path, but not

to strive to be a sage, to reach the ultimate state. That wish will

drag you back. Two months ago, I said that I didn't want to be a sage.

What happened? The opposite thing! My attachment to the people and

things decreased. I couldn't believe it. To refuse something as a

burden which is not needed and you get the freedom, you become one step

closer to the silence? Amazing. That wonderful word: trancendence.

Do you really want to wrestle with

your mind? It is a very hard battle. It can be in peace, but it can

assume some very subtle shapes. As in the last paragraph: "Hey, I am

going to be a sage." That is nothing but a greed, the material thing

disguised in spiritual terms. Surrender is without any conditions and

expectations. The mind wants to survive (as it is, it doesn't like

changes) at any costs. It will use the truth that everything is

included in Self, there is nothing outside. It will declare that

nothing is important, because everything is already part of the Self.

In other terms, 'nirvana is samsara, samsara is nirvana'. The real

meaning is that even the material world is spiritual in its essence.

But, the mind uses it to keep us away of the real understanding and

practice. If samsara is nirvana, we can do what we want, to be full of

ego, that is 'normal'. Every time, when our practice is strong, you can

hear your mind squeaking as a pig, ready to be slaughtered. It won't

any changes. Are you ready to have this kind of fight? Or just to talk?

To talk is OK, but be honest and you should admit it. If you try to

follow Ramana, if you want an easy way (like TM), there isn't any.

Effortless practice starts when you transcend effort, by making effort.

Stress - relief techniques (Ravi Shankar, TM) preach that if we remove

the stress, everything will be OK, God is at hand reach. But, that is

only a temporary relief. I did TM.

Do you really want to be 'emotionally

independent of anything or anyone?' (de Mello) I am sure that Ramana

would agree. Can you endure that kind of loneliness? To love all

beings, but nobody special? It sounds cruel, doesn't it? Are you ready

for that? I guess, there is always some kind of preference, even in the

mind of a sage, but when his preferred object is gone, sage won't cry.

He is separated. He is not touched by that event. We would be. It is an

illusion that you can reach self - realization (= sage in my mail) and

to keep some dependency. It is not possible. When I said: "I won't to

be a sage", from that moment, I am able to give my kidney for the

stranger, but I won't die without his company. So, think about this

topic. Do you want to be independent, or just partially independent?

Questions abut samadhi states. How can

you know anything about it? Do you need to know anything about it? Why

do people talk about sahaja samadhi only? Do you know how rare state it

is? Many 'sages' have reached the lowest kind of samadhi, savikalpa.

Who did TM, he/she knows what I am talking about. There is no problems,

world is perfect, bliss, light, there is no thoughts only awareness,

everything is done. But, this states don't last long. Nirvikalpa, that

is the level of the majority of gurus. States when the mind is not the

witness, states when guru is still, like a stone, as he fall asleep.

Only rare people reach sahaja. To be efficient in both 'worlds' in all

states. They are always in the 4th state, turya, which is mix of all 3

states (Maharishi's gospel). So, why so many questions about samadhi?

We can't reach even the first stage, but we talk about some ultimate

one. What is the use of that? We can't comprehend the ultimate state,

as the fly can't calculate. There is only one thing worth of thinking,

it was my problem for years: sahaja is irreversible. We can't say that

we want our old mind back. The river is in the ocean, there is no way

back. It is permanent. Are we ready for that? Somebody can say a famous

slogan: everything is already Self, so nothing has lost. OK. But can

your mind accept this? If can't, you should continue your 'normal' life

and continue your rebirth. I know that I don't have anything which is

worth to be preserved (my personal attributes), so I accept these

facts. I surrender. Do you?

Are you ready to stop reading so much,

when you realize the truth? Or you will continue to read the same

things in different packages? I agree, packages are very important. To

read Echart Tolle is much more comfortable (because he is German, form

the West), than Jidu Krishnamurti, although Tolle used all his ideas.

But, when you realize the truth, are you ready to solve your questions

(not to repeat Ramana's words as parrots, if you didn't tried them and

if you don't really live them, they are nothing but words) and to do

some practice? When I say 'practice', 5 minutes of correct vichara is

more worth than 2 hours of 'hit against the wall with our head'

vichara. My former style. Just pain, nothing else. But, that effort

made me to think about my mistakes in vichara. Ramana was right.

Vichara is improving during the time.

Yes, some of my questions are maybe

funny, if we cite Ramana. But what is YOUR answer? Your inner answer?

We know Ramana's words. But what are your words? In absolute terms, my

questions are ridiculous. But, we live in this relative world. Is it

real or not, we believe that it is not, by Ramana's teaching. But,

there is a story about 4 Zen monks. Three of them had a fight about is

the stone before them real or not. The fourth hit one of them in his

head and asked him: "What do you think now, is is real or not?" : ) So,

all 'absolute' things must be reached, not just cited. OK, God, world

and soul are the fruits of our mind. Theory. True. But, when somebody

die, your cousin, parent, partner, child..., are you so elevated and

absolute? No. When you are ill, you say: "OK, that is only in my mind"?

No. That can say only a sage. Until you reach this state, you must

solve your problems and questions. Only sage can say that his body as

the coat on the drunk person: he doesn't know if he wears it or not.

The sum. If we are honest toward

ourselves, we will act as Neo in Matrix: we must choose between two

pills. The first one is the pill of the truth, but it will be a painful

journey. Guru can help, but it will be bumpy trip. Or, to grab the

second pill, the pill of oblivion. To be honest and say that you want

to live as a 'normal' person (not in a way to have a family, even a

sage, like Nisargadatta can have a family), it is rather in a lifestyle

and awareness, what is important or not..., that you want to play with

Ramana's teaching, to be wise and cite his words,... That is honest. We

can refuse our feeling that everything is Self, and to continue

changing our bodies (karma). Who can't accept that the Self is an

infinite potency, without any attributes, Ramana is not for him. Or,

until that question is clear.

But, if you ask me, the man who can't

lose or gain anything from this group (because I endured all path by

myself and when I read a book about Buddhist practice, I found all my

questions and I found that I solved them correctly. The proof that my

practice was devoted and honest is that I've encounter almost any

problem which can exist in one meditation, or vichara. And my

conclusions were OK), we should focus on these questions, not just to

make something like the biblical correspondence school, were we will

agree with each other and nobody will learn anything. It is 1000 times

more valuable to hear the reflections of Ramana's words, instead of his

words. They are in books, they are more than clear. If somebody has

something to ask, that is also OK. As I said, I dared even to talk

about the method of vichara. Because people don't know how to perform

it. Is it japa? Is it effortless or not? Oh, I have so many thoughts!

(this is good, everything must go out, Ramana's words) I did vichara

with my friend for a month, and he fell in every pit, he made mistakes

in every aspect.

Atma vichara is a very hard path. And

it is very easy, when you work on yourself. When you comprehend

something, leave it alone. It was funny when some guy, I think Bob (now

I talk with Richard : ), said that your trip and staying in

Tiruvanamalai is nothing but moving your body from one place to

another. So impersonal, so dogmatic. Even your reply, in the same

manner.

I don't know, maybe you won't see my

remarks and questions as well intentioned, but I can't help myself.

I've read the whole 'Yoga Vasishta Sara', what is the use of quoting

it? Some parts can be the answer to the question about karma, which is

also one of the serious questions. Is it all predestined, or not?

Vasishta has a wonderful answer. I have one thing in mind, when I

observe something: why we are here? For example: why somebody follow

Ramana? Why somebody

is the president of some state? To steal, to be corrupted, or to serve

people? Why we are

members of this group? To learn something, or to reinvent hot water?

Best wishes for you Richard, it is

great how you follow your prarabdha, I won't make jokes (or you didn't

make jokes, your and Bob?) what will go to Tiruvanalai, your ears,

body, bones, that nobody travels nowhere... Your decision is very

brave. And it is not your wish, that important thing must be your

prarabhda. I haven't any wish to go to Arunachala, but you have. Q: Do

I need to go to a jungle and left my family? Ramana: If it was your

prarabhda, the question wouldn't asked. : ) That is your way, Richard.

Good luck.

Dragan

August 11, 2007

Dear Dragan,

Thanks for your e-mail to the group. We are all devotees of Sri Ramana.

I understand everything you are saying. Bhagavan used to say that our

destiny propels us in certain directions. He told Paul Brunton that

Sahaj Samadhi should be practiced right from the beginning! What is

practice of the aspirant is the state of the Sage.

You ask some questions which we have been written about on the HS site

some years ago.

You brought up the Heart, the Spiritual Heart. You can go to the

following URL where some of my writings are available on the Spiritual

Heart. After these articles are transferred into a blog format and

properly categorized, they will be more easily available to search

engines.

/LunarPages/archive/MagazineV2/harsha/heart.html

Namaste and love to all

Harsha

Dragan Pavlovic wrote: