From Day by day with Bhagavan

[Guest guest]

22-3-46 Afternoon

 

Last night, Mr. Bose, his mother, Lady C. V. Raman and Swami

Sambuddhananda of the Ramakrishna Mission, Bombay, arrived here. The

Swami quoted a verse from Bhagavad Gita, which says that one in a

thousand succeeds and knows really the tattva or entity.

 

For some time Bhagavan kept quiet.

 

When the Swami wanted an answer, some of us could not help

remarking, " What is your question? What answer do you expect? "

 

Dr. Masalawala even pointedly asked, " What is the motive behind this

question? "

 

Thereupon, the Swami said, " I think our Bhagavan has attained Self-

realization. Such beings are walking Upanishads. So I want to hear,

from his own lips, his experience of Self-realization. Why are you

all butting in and distracting us from the point and purpose of my

question? "

 

After all this, Bhagavan said, " You say you think I have attained

Self-realization. I must know what you mean by Self-realization. What

idea do you have in your mind about it? "

 

The Swami was not pleased with this counter-question, but added,

after some time, " I mean the atman merging in the paramatman. "

 

Bhagavan then said, " We do not know about the Paramatman, or the

Universal Soul, etc. We know we exist. Nobody doubts he exists,

though he may doubt the existence of God. So, if one finds out about

the truth or source of oneself, that is all that is required. "

 

The Swami thereupon said, " Bhagavan, therefore, says, `Know

Thyself'. "

 

Bhagavan said, " Even that is not correct. For, if we talk of knowing

the Self, there must be two Selves, one a knowing Self, another the

Self which is known, and the process of knowing. The state we call

realization is simply being oneself, not knowing anything or becoming

anything. If one has realized, he is that which alone is and which

alone has always been. He cannot describe that state. He can only be

that. Of course, we loosely talk of Self-realization, for want of a

better term. How to `realize' or make real that which alone is real?

What we are all doing is, we `realize' or regard as real that which

is unreal. This habit of ours has to be given up. All sadhana under

all systems of thought is meant only for this end. When we give up

regarding the unreal as real, then the reality alone will remain and

we will be that. "

 

The Swami replied, " This exposition is all right with reference to

advaita. But there are other schools which do not insist on the

disappearance of triputi (the three factors of knowledge) as the

condition for Self-realization. There are schools which believe in

the existence of two and even three eternal entities. There is the

bhakta, for instance. That he may do bhakti, there must be a God. "

 

Bhagavan replied, " Whoever objects to one having a God to worship, so

long as he requires such a separate God? Through bhakti he develops

himself and comes to feel that God alone exists and that he, the

bhakta, does not count. He comes to a stage when he says, `Not I, but

Thou' ; `Not my will, but Thy will.' When that stage is reached,

which is called complete surrender in the bhakti marga, one finds

effacement of ego is attainment of Self. We need not quarrel whether

there are two entities, or more, or only one. Even according to

dvaitis and according to the bhakti marga, complete surrender is

prescribed. Do that first, and then see for yourself whether the one

Self alone exists, or whether there are two or more entities. "

 

Bhagavan further added, " Whatever may be said to suit the different

capacities of different men, the truth is, the state of Self-

realization must be beyond triputis. The Self is not something of

which jnana or ajnana can be predicated. It is beyond ajnana and

jnana. The Self is the Self ; that is all that can be said of it. "

 

The Swami then asked whether a jnani could remain with his body after

attaining Self-realization. He said, " It is said that the impact of

Self-realization is so forceful that the weak physical body cannot

bear it for more than twenty-one days at the longest. "

 

Bhagavan said, " What is your idea of a jnani? Is he the body or

something different ? If he is something apart from the body, how

could he be affected by the body? The books talk of different kinds

of mukti, videha mukti (without body), and jivan mukti (with body).

There may be different stages in the sadhana. But in realization

there are no degrees. "

 

The Swami then asked, " What is the best means for Self-realization ? "

 

Bhagavan: `I exist' is the only permanent, self-evident: experience

of every one. Nothing else is so self-evident (pratyaksha) as `I am.'

What people call `self-evident' viz., the experience they get through

the senses, is far from self-evident. The Self alone is that.

Pratyaksha is another name for the Self. So, to do Self-analysis and

be `I am' is the only thing to do. `I am' is reality. I am this or

that is unreal. `I am' is truth, another name for the Self. `I am

God' is not true.

 

The Swami thereupon said, " The Upanishads themselves have said `I am

Brahman'. "

 

Bhagavan replied, " That is not how the text is to be understood. It

simply means; " Brahman exists as `I' and not `I am Brahman.' It is

not to be supposed that a man is advised to contemplate, `I am

Brahman, I am Brahman'. Does a man keep on thinking, `I am a man, I

am a man?' He is that, and except when a doubt arises as to whether

he is an animal or a tree, there is no need for him to assert, `I am

a man.' Similarly the Self is Self, Brahman exists as `I am,' in

every thing and every being. "

 

The Swami remarked; " The bhakta requires a God to whom he can do

bhakti. Is he to be taught that there is only the Self, not a

worshipper and the worshipped? "

 

Bhagavan: Of course, God is required for sadhana. But the end of the

sadhana, even in bhakti marga, is attained only after complete

surrender. What does it mean, except that effacement of ego results

in the Self remaining as it always has been? Whatever path one may

choose, the `I' is inescapable, the `I' that does the nishkama karma,

the `I' that pines for joining the Lord from whom it feels it has

been separated, the `I' that feels it has slipped from its real

nature, and so on. The source of this `I' must be found out. Then all

questions will be solved. Whereas all paths are approved in the

Bhagavad Gita, it says that the jnani is the best karma yogi, the

best devotee or bhakta, the highest yogi and so on. "

 

The Swami still persisted, " It is all right to say Self-analysis is

the best thing to do. But in practice, we find a God is necessary for

most people. "

 

Bhagavan: God is of course necessary, for most people. They can go on

with one, until they find out that they and God are not different.

 

The Swami continued, " In actual practice, sadhakas, even sincere

ones, sometimes become dejected and lose faith in God. How to restore

their faith? What should we do for them?

 

Bhagavan: If one cannot believe in God, it does not matter. I suppose

he believes in himself, in his own existence. Let him find out the

source from which he came.

 

Swami: Such a man will only say the source from which he comes are

his parents.

 

Bhagavan : He cannot be such an ignoramus, as you started by saying

he was a sadhaka in this line already.

 

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Not two,

Richard