Animal Rights

[Guest guest]

Hi!

 

I've always kind of disliked the term animal " rights, " because it

tends to send a distorted message to the general public. I've been an animal

activist for a long time, and my respect for all life is what initially led

me to pursue a plant-based (vegan) lifestyle.

 

Of course, I wasn't always vegan, and I was raised in a Catholic

household, where eating meat was the only normal thing to do, and hunting was

considered " sport " -- coming home with the corpse of an animal you killed was

something to be proud of, and I can't remember how many times I believed this

without questioning it.

 

I think I've always had a deep respect for animals -- even when I

was killing them. I know this doesn't make sense, but my respect was mixed

with significant ignorance. I've now come to accept the idea that all

living, sentient beings experience emotions similar to the ones I feel, as we

are all animals, and probably others that I never will be able to experience.

But when I look into my dog's eyes, I see intelligence. She seems to know

and understand that I saved her life (she was adopted by me the day before

she was to be euthanized), and I believe she would save mine if ever the

opportunity arose. I've been a veterinary technician for years, and there's

no better way to get a sense of what animals feel than by working with them

under those circumstances. I've had to assist in euthanasia countless times,

as well as help in painful operations, and I just get a sense that any animal

knows when something that is going to threaten their livelihood is about to

happen.

 

If you've ever seen footage of slaughterhouses or fur farms (not the

most pleasant things to see, I know), you will see absolute terror in the

eyes of those animals that are about to be butchered. They fight against it

with all of their strength, because they have a will to live. It's my belief

that any animal that has a will to live -- whether it be human, dog, cow, or

fish -- should have a right to the life it was created to have (and no, I

don't mean to die in order to feed people who think they taste good, because

people did not " create " any animal, and can't dictate their reason for

living).

 

In this way, I think the term animal " rights " is misleading -- I get

people who (jokingly, in an attempt to hide their ignorance) ask me " are you

gonna try to get cows the right to vote next? " We most certainly don't

expect non-human animals to have the same rights as humans -- all species

have different needs and desires, and the idea is that they should be able to

live a life that fulfills those needs.

 

I guess the places in which our philosophies differ most are that,

mainly, I don't believe that non-human animals were created in order to serve

humans. I'm not religious, so this simply does not make sense to me, and,

even if I followed a religion that suggested this, I would disagree with the

idea. The concept that animals are created to " serve " humans is absurd.

This suggests that humans have the right to do whatever they want to animals,

because by their being a servant, you are saying they are a slave, which

means that humans must own them. In this case, even the most horrifying of

cruelties does not matter, because we own animals and can do whatever we wish

to them. If there is any debt of service that any creature owes to anything,

it is of all animals (including humans) to the earth, which sustains all life.

 

Another point on which we disagree is the concept of " humane "

fishing. I used to fish (as well as hunt, which I mentioned earlier), and

I'm firmly convinced that humane fishing is next to impossible, and, if you

were to achieve it, it would be far more effort than it's worth. No hooks

would be able to be used, because they cause severe pain and damage to the

fish, who has every capacity to feel pain as we do, because they have sensory

nerves and wouldn't be able to survive without them. Secondly, the most

common method of fish killing is by bringing them out of the only habitat

they can survive in to an environment that is the equivalent of forcing a

human underwater until they drown. Their death is slow and painful, and

every moment of it it filled with terror.

In order for fishing to be humane, it would have to involve some

kind of underwater trap that did not cause pain in the fish, then some kind

of humane euthanasia would have to be used, which would most likely make its

flesh toxic anyhow. I'm very curious as to what humane methods you use.

Just remember that, when fishing, the fish is not surrendering its body to

you as a " gift, " but rather you are stealing it from its home and ending its

life before nature willed it.

 

If you are serious about educating yourself on the subject,<A

HREF= " http://www.fishinghurts.com/ " >

FishingHurts.com</A> has some wonderful information.

 

As far as the membership of the club goes, as far as I know, I might

be the only animal " rights " activist here -- the main thing is that, even

though you aren't vegetarian, you have taken steps to move toward a

plant-based lifestyle, which is always a step in the right direction, and, to

the best of my knowledge, what this club is all about. So, welcome! I look

forward to speaking with you, and possibly meeting you, in the future!

 

- Carla Brauer

ObscuredDestiny

650-219-8984

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hello Everyone,

 

I have a question. I am a person who has come to the realization through many

years of experience, that vegetarian diets are the healthiest - at least for me

- and also for my husband. I believe it is also good for the planet. We both

FEEL lousy if we eat animal food. However there is one exception. We can eat

fish and we feel just fine. So, we eat no dairy and no meat except for fish. I

would like to know if this group includes others like myself OR is this strictly

an animal rights vegan group?

 

My personal feeling is that animals are meant to serve man and that we should

treat all living things with kindness and respect. Therefore, we should not

torture animals - BUT.... we should also not harm human beings or their property

in a misguided belief that animals have " rights " that somehow justify a

destructive act. I personally don't think that animals have any rights

whatsoever. If it becomes necessary for a man to kill an animal in order to

survive in the wilderness for instance, I think it is perfectly alright and

spiritually acceptable to do so. The more painlessly and respectfully that this

can be done the better... not only for the animal, but for the individual eating

the animal or using their fur or skin to survive. I realize that modern day

purveyors of animal products for the most part do not follow humane guidelines

and are primarily profit oriented. And I understand that there is real need for

improvement.

 

Protest to raise awareness and education to make others aware of the best ways

to treat animals, makes sense to me. But trying to sell those of us who make a

conscious choice to eat fish, for example, on the idea that animals have

" rights " , results in alienating those of us who believe that animals were put

here on earth to help and serve mankind. And even worse, when activists seek

to destroy property or harm people in any way, they are even more wrong than

those who eat meat, in my opinion. For they are " knowingly " causing harm,

whereas most meat eaters are unaware of the harmful aspects of their choice.

 

I believe it is possible to go out fishing in my boat, catch some halibut in a

humane way, thank the Lord for my bounty, thank the fish for the gift of his

body to nourish my body, and to be spiritually in harmony with the universe and

God.

 

Your peaceful comments are welcome!

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hi Virginia,

 

Thanks for sharing your views with us.

 

According to the SFBAVEG Charter, " People evolve to a veg*n lifestyle for

many reasons (ethical, environmental, health, spiritual, etc.). Regardless

of why a person became veg*n, they are veg*n. SFBAVEG is a shared space for

us to communicate with others who share our dietary choice / interest in

veg*nism. To insure a peaceful co-existence, we need to respect the

different paths or reasons that have brought us to this intersection where

our paths cross: veg*nism. "

 

In other words, while you were drawn to your lifestyle choice for health

related reasons, others have adopted a veg*n diet out of concern for the

effects that animal agriculture has on the environment. Still others are

drawn to veg*ism by compassion for other species. This listserve is one of

the places their paths cross. I have noticed in my 19 years of

vegetarianism, including 14 of being a vegan, that people attracted to this

alternative lifestyle often broaden their view of the subject over time.

Thus, someone who started out changing to a veg*n diet out of compassion for

animals might also grow to appreciate his or her lifestyle choice for the

health benefits it provides. Someone who started out as a veg*n for health

related reasons might, in time, learn to appreciate the environmental and

compassionate reasons that also justify this lifestyle.

 

Thus, according to the SFBAVEG Charter: " Any post that is veg-related or

animal rights related is open/on-topic. "

 

I hope you will stick with this list and, over time, learn to respect the

views of those who believe that all animated creatures, regardless of

species, have the right to live natural lives free from cruelly inflicted

pain, torture, neglect, abuse, and exploitation. This seems as apparent to

me as did the fact that all people have the fundamental right to " life,

liberty, and the pursuit of happiness " seemed to our ancestors. To view the

pain and suffering of other species as insignificant in comparison to the

pain and suffering of humans is to create a double standard - a standard

that denies and justifies the abuse and pain of others simply because we can

and it's easier than changing our lives. That double standard is at the

heart of all bigotry and it is what made racism, sexism, anti-Semitism, and

so many other evils possible.

 

You don't have to agree with me. But, just as I respect your right to make

your own lifestyle choices and eat less animal food for health-related

reasons, I hope you will be able to respect my right to choose veganism for

reasons of compassion. Neither one of us has a monopoly on the truth.

 

So, I'll make you a deal. I won't try to talk you out of being motivated to

choose your lifestyle for health-related reasons alone if you don't try to

talk me out of being a vegan for health, environmental, and compassionate

reasons.

 

Best wishes,

 

Pete

 

 

 

-

" Virginia Riker " <elucidlady

" vegan "

Tuesday, November 13, 2001 1:00 PM

Animal " Rights "

 

 

> Hello Everyone,

>

> I have a question. I am a person who has come to the realization through

many years of experience, that vegetarian diets are the healthiest - at

least for me - and also for my husband. I believe it is also good for the

planet. We both FEEL lousy if we eat animal food. However there is one

exception. We can eat fish and we feel just fine. So, we eat no dairy and

no meat except for fish. I would like to know if this group includes others

like myself OR is this strictly an animal rights vegan group?

>

> My personal feeling is that animals are meant to serve man and that we

should treat all living things with kindness and respect. Therefore, we

should not torture animals - BUT.... we should also not harm human beings or

their property in a misguided belief that animals have " rights " that somehow

justify a destructive act. I personally don't think that animals have any

rights whatsoever. If it becomes necessary for a man to kill an animal in

order to survive in the wilderness for instance, I think it is perfectly

alright and spiritually acceptable to do so. The more painlessly and

respectfully that this can be done the better... not only for the animal,

but for the individual eating the animal or using their fur or skin to

survive. I realize that modern day purveyors of animal products for the

most part do not follow humane guidelines and are primarily profit oriented.

And I understand that there is real need for improvement.

>

> Protest to raise awareness and education to make others aware of the best

ways to treat animals, makes sense to me. But trying to sell those of us

who make a conscious choice to eat fish, for example, on the idea that

animals have " rights " , results in alienating those of us who believe that

animals were put here on earth to help and serve mankind. And even worse,

when activists seek to destroy property or harm people in any way, they are

even more wrong than those who eat meat, in my opinion. For they are

" knowingly " causing harm, whereas most meat eaters are unaware of the

harmful aspects of their choice.

>

> I believe it is possible to go out fishing in my boat, catch some halibut

in a humane way, thank the Lord for my bounty, thank the fish for the gift

of his body to nourish my body, and to be spiritually in harmony with the

universe and God.

>

> Your peaceful comments are welcome!

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Speaking of Singer, I have a copy of Animal Liberation (and other animal

rights/veggie books) that I'm willing to let anyone borrow as long as long as

they promise to send it back as soon as they're done with it. Also, I'd

recommend that everyone who hasn't already watch the new documentary The

Witness, which is a wonderful video about a man who never particularly liked

animals, but finally adopted a cat, who changed his entire outlook on life.

Very inspiring -- anyone who wants to borrow a copy, just let me know and

I'll arrange it!

 

- Carla

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

regarding virginia's post and those that followed

(which echoed peter singer's philosophical stand), i

would suggest virginia and others who may not be

familiar with peter singer, read " animal liberation "

by said singer.

 

i know many of you are probably already well versed in

peter singer, but i thought a mentioning of him and

" animal liberation " might be helpful.

 

virginia: it will definitely answer many questions you

might have and give you insight into animal rights,

anti-speciesism and equality for all sentient beings.

 

great book.

 

peace,

mike

 

 

--- Virginia Riker <elucidlady wrote:

> Hello Everyone,

>

> I have a question. I am a person who has come to

> the realization through many years of experience,

> that vegetarian diets are the healthiest - at least

> for me - and also for my husband. I believe it is

> also good for the planet. We both FEEL lousy if we

> eat animal food. However there is one exception.

> We can eat fish and we feel just fine. So, we eat

> no dairy and no meat except for fish. I would like

> to know if this group includes others like myself OR

> is this strictly an animal rights vegan group?

>

> My personal feeling is that animals are meant to

> serve man and that we should treat all living things

> with kindness and respect. Therefore, we should not

> torture animals - BUT.... we should also not harm

> human beings or their property in a misguided belief

> that animals have " rights " that somehow justify a

> destructive act. I personally don't think that

> animals have any rights whatsoever. If it becomes

> necessary for a man to kill an animal in order to

> survive in the wilderness for instance, I think it

> is perfectly alright and spiritually acceptable to

> do so. The more painlessly and respectfully that

> this can be done the better... not only for the

> animal, but for the individual eating the animal or

> using their fur or skin to survive. I realize that

> modern day purveyors of animal products for the most

> part do not follow humane guidelines and are

> primarily profit oriented. And I understand that

> there is real need for improvement.

>

> Protest to raise awareness and education to make

> others aware of the best ways to treat animals,

> makes sense to me. But trying to sell those of us

> who make a conscious choice to eat fish, for

> example, on the idea that animals have " rights " ,

> results in alienating those of us who believe that

> animals were put here on earth to help and serve

> mankind. And even worse, when activists seek to

> destroy property or harm people in any way, they are

> even more wrong than those who eat meat, in my

> opinion. For they are " knowingly " causing harm,

> whereas most meat eaters are unaware of the harmful

> aspects of their choice.

>

> I believe it is possible to go out fishing in my

> boat, catch some halibut in a humane way, thank the

> Lord for my bounty, thank the fish for the gift of

> his body to nourish my body, and to be spiritually

> in harmony with the universe and God.

>

> Your peaceful comments are welcome!

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been

> removed]

>

>

 

 

 

 

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