Guest guest Posted April 23, 2002 Report Share Posted April 23, 2002 " Mr. Pete " <plcohon Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:48:30 -0700 All the news about child abuse in the Church has started me thinking; (a dangerous turn of affairs). While the world examines child abuse by priests, which affects relatively few children, it ignores a greater daily threat to millions of kids world-wide. Of course, I'm talking about the child abuse inherent in feeding kids a meat-centered, fast-food diet. Please tell me this is an ill-thought-out, off-the-cuff idea that you never really gave any serious consideration to. That is the only explanation that will make me not lose my lunch. You can not compare rape to eating meat. You just can't. You might be able to make a case for the suffering of the animals being on the same level but that's not what you're doing. You're trying to say that a human being eating meat is suffering just as badly as a human being who is beaten, tortured, raped, violated, and spiritually destroyed. If you still think these are equivelent then don't bother responding. You aren't someone I want contact with. Ever. You haven't a clue what you're talking about. This is too upseting...I'm stopping my post here. Cyndi -- _____________________________ " There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe. " (ST:TNG) cyndi http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Pete et. al: Here's an article that appeared in VegNews that might help get the dialogue started: The Most Pervasive Form of Child Abuse by Will Tuttle, Ph.D. VegNews, May/June 2001 I believe the most widespread form of child abuse in our culture today is forcing children to eat the flesh, milk, and eggs of other mammals, birds, and fish. I myself was wounded in this way throughout my entire childhood by well-meaning but abusive parents, neighbors, and teachers who had been similarly abused as children. The effects of this abuse are insidious and devastating. The most immediate effect is the hardening of one¹s heart toward the suffering of others. Several times daily a ritual is enacted in which conscious, feeling creatures who are subjects of their own lives and life experiences, who have fully-developed central nervous systems as humans do, and who are sensitive to pain and to psychological suffering, are rendered into objects with no value other than ³food.² The child is routinely forced to participate in and eventually perhaps even enjoy events that mask a deep horror and crudely-veiled violence. By blithely cooking and presenting the bodies and body parts of animals as meals that are normal and respectable, elders create in children a deep wound from which few, it seems, ever recover. This wound is an inner splitting off of oneself from one¹s actions and natural human feelings. It causes a fundamental inability to either be fully responsible for one¹s actions, or to open to the suffering of others, especially the suffering that one is directly causing. A profound inner alienation from nature, from other living creatures, from other humans, and from oneself is the unavoidable result. While this alienation is desperately denied and hidden, it is obvious to anyone with a discerning eye who sees how we treat our ecosystem, other animals, and those we see as ³others²other ethnic groups and those of other religions, races, and orientations. It is the vulnerable who are especially hurt by this: women, children, the poor and underprivileged, animals, and future generations. There is great truth in the old saying, ³Hurt people hurt people.² Even more truthful would be the saying ³Hurt people hurt animals.² And in harming them, and teaching our children that it is natural to do so, we damage the fundamental nature of our relationship with the created world. We tear the fabric of caring, intuition, freedom, and honor, and become incapable of true respect. In violating those who are weaker, imprisoning, mutilating, abusing and butchering them, and forcing sensitive young children to accept and participate in this behavior, we do fundamental violence to them, to ourselves, and our true nature. It is obvious that humans are not intended to eat other animals. Truly carnivorous animals need not use implements like knives, spears, guns, and fishing tackle to catch and kill and prepare other animals to be eaten, nor to cook and disguise the truly horrific nature of the action. What supposedly meat-loving man would chase a wild cow or pig, leap upon its neck and kill it with his teeth and fingernails, chomping into the hot blood and living flesh of another creature? Not only is it impossible, it is completely disgusting to us as humans and alien to our nature. Similarly, to crawl under the cow and suck on her teats, stealing her baby¹s milk, and her baby as well. The actions we take to be normal are utterly outrageous, and in forcing our children to engage in such perversions, we perpetuate the violence, warfare, and hard-heartedness that cause so much suffering in our world. Noticing one¹s own jaw, one immediately recognizes how it is especially hinged to allow side-to-side movement. No carnivorous or omnivorous animals have this type of jaw. We have the anatomy of herbivores, for chewing, digesting, and eliminating grains and plant-based foods. It is well established that if herbivores are forced to eat other animals, they develop the same disease conditions that are pandemic today in our culture: obesity, heart disease and arteriosclerosis; diabetes; cancers; arthritis; kidney, liver, and digestive ailments; strokes and other chronic degenerative diseases. Most people, unfortunately, are so deeply wounded as children that they are never able to undo the tragic damage done to them, and fail to switch to the non-violent plant-based diet for which all humans are perfectly designed. A parent who eats animal foods is thus chronically abusive, and in the worst way: a way that is completely socially acceptable. The child abuse of being a model flesh-eater, whom the impressionable child will naturally emulate, inflicts misery, illness, violence, bondage, and shortened life both on the animals who are killed, and on the child who accepts it all, ironically, as normal. We have all been given the gift of physical bodies that require no animal to suffer for their feeding. To reject this gift from a deeply loving universal intelligence, and uselessly confine, maim, slaughter, and eat animals, and force our children to do so as well, through the proxy of buying or demanding blood, flesh, milk, and eggs, sows the seeds of generations of misery. The greatest delight is in feeling, connecting, awakening, caring, and loving, and it begins with the daily ritual that we all participate in, our most intimate connection with the created world, that we call eating. § Will Tuttle is an acclaimed pianist, composer, and recording artist, and a Zen priest in the Korean Zen tradition. © VegNews and Will Tuttle > All the news about child abuse in the Church has started me thinking; (a > dangerous turn of affairs). While the world examines child abuse by > priests, which affects relatively few children, it ignores a greater daily > threat to millions of kids world-wide. Of course, I'm talking about the > child abuse inherent in feeding kids a meat-centered, fast-food diet. > > I wonder if emphasizing the ill effects that meat has on kids would be an > effective way of encouraging the growth of vegetarianism. After all, most > people don't care about animals, or even their own health, based on what > they eat. But everyone worries about his or her kids. Perhaps a major > advertising campaign by a coalition of national animal rights and veggie > groups centered on the child abuse inherent in a fast-food, meat based diet > would be more effective than current outreach efforts. > > Before I suggest this to some of the larger national organizations, I'd like > to get some feedback from members of this list. If you have any opinions or > suggestions, please send them to the list so that folks can comment on each > other's ideas. > > Thanks for your consideration. And remember: even the largest elephant > starts out as the tiniest embryo. The future is ours! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 If inflicting life threatening/or ending asthma (suffocation), allergies insistent burning red eyes (torture) bedwetting, ear infections, runny noses, and the myriad of other problems (cancers) caused by a compromised immune system.. all caused by milk is not crime. What is.. I suffered and several times almost died from this chronic torture for thirty years as a child and adult. Ignorance is no excuse.. Stop this violence now.. The churches etc. should be the first to step out! When stopping milk ends the torture of a child: There is no question who the criminal is/was! Good PR, complicity and denial by the milk industry does not make them any less criminals than any rapist. If you do not think so fill your lungs with fluid so you cannot breath for weeks time and again. .. enjoy Cyndi Norman [cyndi] Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:12 PM plcohon Cc: ; cyndi Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children " Mr. Pete " <plcohon Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:48:30 -0700 All the news about child abuse in the Church has started me thinking; (a dangerous turn of affairs). While the world examines child abuse by priests, which affects relatively few children, it ignores a greater daily threat to millions of kids world-wide. Of course, I'm talking about the child abuse inherent in feeding kids a meat-centered, fast-food diet. Please tell me this is an ill-thought-out, off-the-cuff idea that you never really gave any serious consideration to. That is the only explanation that will make me not lose my lunch. You can not compare rape to eating meat. You just can't. You might be able to make a case for the suffering of the animals being on the same level but that's not what you're doing. You're trying to say that a human being eating meat is suffering just as badly as a human being who is beaten, tortured, raped, violated, and spiritually destroyed. If you still think these are equivelent then don't bother responding. You aren't someone I want contact with. Ever. You haven't a clue what you're talking about. This is too upseting...I'm stopping my post here. Cyndi -- __________________________ ___ " There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi Norman something wrong with the universe. " (ST:TNG) cyndi http://www.tikvah.com/ _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists http://www.immuneweb.org/ *Tell your friends to Be-A-Veg with SFBAVeg! To , send an e-mail to: - *To share a message with the group: *Manage your SFBAVeg list subscription: -Switch to no-mail: -nomail -Switch to daily digest: -digest -Switch to individual messages: -normal -Leave the group: - *If you have questions about the list, please contact Tammy & Chris, list admins, at -owner * Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Pete, While I'm not as offended as Cyndi, I don't think her reaction would be unusual, and we would lose much of the public's sympathy. Peta often takes such a tactic because even though they will offend a lot of people, it will generate much attention, and possibly get people thinking and convert many of them. So, perhaps there is a utilitarian argument to be made that offending many people would be worth the reduction in animal suffering that could result. Unfortunately, I, personally, don't think that feeding children moderate amounts of animal products is necessarily so bad for their health. Perhaps it could be a campaign suggesting that not feeding your kids more plant foods, such as that recommended by the USDA Food Pyramid, is a form of abuse. Jack > VegNews <editor > Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:04:25 -0700 > " Mr. Pete " <plcohon, > Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children > > Pete et. al: > > Here's an article that appeared in VegNews that might help get the dialogue > started: > > The Most Pervasive Form of Child Abuse > by Will Tuttle, Ph.D. > VegNews, May/June 2001 > > I believe the most widespread form of child abuse in our culture today is > forcing children to eat the flesh, milk, and eggs of other mammals, birds, > and fish. I myself was wounded in this way throughout my entire childhood by > well-meaning but abusive parents, neighbors, and teachers who had been > similarly abused as > children. The effects of this abuse are insidious and devastating. > The most immediate effect is the hardening of one¹s heart toward the > suffering of others. Several times daily a ritual is enacted in which > conscious, feeling creatures who are subjects of their own lives and life > experiences, who have fully-developed central nervous systems as humans do, > and who are sensitive to pain and to psychological suffering, are rendered > into objects with no value other than ³food.² The child is routinely forced > to participate in and eventually perhaps even enjoy events that mask a deep > horror and crudely-veiled violence. > By blithely cooking and presenting the bodies and body parts of animals > as meals that are normal and respectable, elders create in children a deep > wound from which few, it seems, ever recover. This wound is an inner > splitting off of oneself from one¹s actions and natural human feelings. It > causes a fundamental inability to either be fully responsible for one¹s > actions, or to open to the suffering of others, especially the suffering > that one is directly causing. A profound inner alienation from nature, from > other living creatures, from other humans, and from oneself is the > unavoidable result. While this alienation is desperately denied and hidden, > it is obvious to anyone with a discerning eye who sees how we treat our > ecosystem, other animals, and those we see as ³others²other ethnic groups > and those of other religions, races, and orientations. It is the vulnerable > who are especially hurt by this: women, children, the poor and > underprivileged, animals, and future generations. > There is great truth in the old saying, ³Hurt people hurt people.² > Even more truthful would be the saying ³Hurt people hurt animals.² And > in harming them, and teaching our children that it is natural to do so, we > damage the fundamental nature of our relationship with the created world. We > tear the fabric of caring, intuition, freedom, and honor, and become > incapable of true respect. In violating those who are weaker, imprisoning, > mutilating, abusing and butchering them, and forcing sensitive young > children to accept and participate in this behavior, we do fundamental > violence to them, to ourselves, and our true nature. > It is obvious that humans are not intended to eat other animals. Truly > carnivorous animals need not use implements like knives, spears, guns, and > fishing tackle to catch and kill and prepare other animals to be eaten, nor > to cook and disguise the truly horrific nature of the action. What > supposedly meat-loving man would chase a wild cow or pig, leap upon its neck > and kill it with his teeth and fingernails, chomping into the hot blood and > living flesh of another creature? Not only is it impossible, it is > completely disgusting to us as humans and alien to our nature. > Similarly, to crawl under the cow and suck on her teats, stealing her > baby¹s milk, and her baby as well. The actions we take to be normal are > utterly outrageous, and in forcing our children to engage in such > perversions, we perpetuate the violence, warfare, and hard-heartedness that > cause so much suffering in our world. > Noticing one¹s own jaw, one immediately recognizes how it is especially > hinged to allow side-to-side movement. No carnivorous or omnivorous > animals have this type of jaw. We have the anatomy of herbivores, for > chewing, digesting, and eliminating grains and plant-based foods. It is well > established that if herbivores are forced to eat other animals, they develop > the same disease conditions that are pandemic today in our culture: obesity, > heart disease and arteriosclerosis; diabetes; cancers; arthritis; kidney, > liver, and digestive ailments; strokes and other chronic degenerative > diseases. Most people, unfortunately, are so deeply wounded as children that > they are never able to undo the tragic damage done to them, and fail to > switch to the non-violent plant-based diet for which all humans are > perfectly designed. > A parent who eats animal foods is thus chronically abusive, and in the > worst way: a way that is completely socially acceptable. The child abuse of > being a model flesh-eater, whom the impressionable child will naturally > emulate, inflicts misery, illness, violence, bondage, and shortened life > both on the animals who are killed, and on the child who accepts it all, > ironically, as normal. > We have all been given the gift of physical bodies that require no > animal to suffer for their feeding. To reject this gift from a deeply loving > universal intelligence, and uselessly confine, maim, slaughter, and eat > animals, and force our children to do so as well, through the proxy of > buying or demanding blood, flesh, milk, and eggs, sows the seeds of > generations of misery. The greatest delight is in feeling, connecting, > awakening, caring, and loving, and it begins with the daily ritual that we > all participate in, our most intimate connection with the created world, > that we call eating. § > > Will Tuttle is an acclaimed pianist, composer, and recording artist, and a > Zen priest in the Korean Zen tradition. > > © VegNews and Will Tuttle > >> All the news about child abuse in the Church has started me thinking; (a >> dangerous turn of affairs). While the world examines child abuse by >> priests, which affects relatively few children, it ignores a greater daily >> threat to millions of kids world-wide. Of course, I'm talking about the >> child abuse inherent in feeding kids a meat-centered, fast-food diet. >> >> I wonder if emphasizing the ill effects that meat has on kids would be an >> effective way of encouraging the growth of vegetarianism. After all, most >> people don't care about animals, or even their own health, based on what >> they eat. But everyone worries about his or her kids. Perhaps a major >> advertising campaign by a coalition of national animal rights and veggie >> groups centered on the child abuse inherent in a fast-food, meat based diet >> would be more effective than current outreach efforts. >> >> Before I suggest this to some of the larger national organizations, I'd like >> to get some feedback from members of this list. If you have any opinions or >> suggestions, please send them to the list so that folks can comment on each >> other's ideas. >> >> Thanks for your consideration. And remember: even the largest elephant >> starts out as the tiniest embryo. The future is ours! > > > > > *Tell your friends to Be-A-Veg with SFBAVeg! To , send an e-mail to: > - > *To share a message with the group: > *Manage your SFBAVeg list subscription: > -Switch to no-mail: -nomail > -Switch to daily digest: -digest > -Switch to individual messages: -normal > -Leave the group: - > *If you have questions about the list, please contact Tammy & Chris, list > admins, at -owner > * > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Because one (or many) people have serious allergies to milk doesn't mean that feeding kids milk, in general, is abuse. The same could be said about soy foods, nuts, citrus fruits, and many other foods. Would we want a campaign saying that feeding kids, in general, wheat, barley, and rye is child abuse based on the fact that a few kids have celiac disease and get violently ill when eating such products? Jack > " Jay Gleason " <jay.gleason > Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:05:51 -0700 > > RE: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children > > If inflicting life threatening/or ending asthma (suffocation), allergies > insistent burning red eyes (torture) bedwetting, ear infections, runny > noses, > and the myriad of other problems (cancers) caused by a compromised immune > system.. > all caused by milk is not crime. > > What is.. > > I suffered and several times almost died from this chronic > torture for thirty years as a child and adult. > > Ignorance is no excuse.. Stop this violence now.. > > The churches etc. should be the first to step out! > > When stopping milk ends the torture of a child: > > There is no question who the criminal is/was! > > Good PR, complicity and denial by the milk industry does not make them any > less criminals > > than any rapist. > > If you do not think so fill your lungs with fluid so you cannot breath for > weeks > > time and again. .. enjoy > > > Cyndi Norman [cyndi] > Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:12 PM > plcohon > Cc: ; cyndi > Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children > > > " Mr. Pete " <plcohon > Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:48:30 -0700 > > All the news about child abuse in the Church has started me thinking; (a > dangerous turn of affairs). While the world examines child abuse by > priests, which affects relatively few children, it ignores a greater > daily threat to millions of kids world-wide. Of course, I'm talking > about the child abuse inherent in feeding kids a meat-centered, > fast-food diet. > > Please tell me this is an ill-thought-out, off-the-cuff idea that you never > really gave any serious consideration to. That is the only explanation > that will make me not lose my lunch. > > You can not compare rape to eating meat. You just can't. You might be > able to make a case for the suffering of the animals being on the same > level but that's not what you're doing. You're trying to say that a human > being eating meat is suffering just as badly as a human being who is > beaten, tortured, raped, violated, and spiritually destroyed. > > If you still think these are equivelent then don't bother responding. You > aren't someone I want contact with. Ever. You haven't a clue what you're > talking about. > > This is too upseting...I'm stopping my post here. > > Cyndi > > -- > __________________________ > ___ > " There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi > Norman > something wrong with the universe. " (ST:TNG) > cyndi > > http://www.tikvah.com/ > _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists > http://www.immuneweb.org/ > > > *Tell your friends to Be-A-Veg with SFBAVeg! To , send an e-mail > to: - > *To share a message with the group: > *Manage your SFBAVeg list subscription: > -Switch to no-mail: -nomail > -Switch to daily digest: -digest > -Switch to individual messages: -normal > -Leave the group: - > *If you have questions about the list, please contact Tammy & Chris, list > admins, at -owner > * > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 I do not have an allergy to milk! Milk by compromising my (and most peoples) immune system makes me allergic to almost everything! Nice of you to think your collective mindlessness is an excuse.. one sick very child is too many. You have no idea how many children and adults are sick because of milk.. The only way to find the acute problems asthma, bedwetting, ear infections, hay fever, colic etc.is to go off of dairy absolutely for a week. But this will not show the other effects caused by childhood and lifelong use of dairy: SIDs, Type 1 diabetes, leukemia, arthritis, etc. Milk does not belong in 1st grade any more than caffeine or cocaine! I know of a woman who ran a dairy free preschool.. none of the usual runny noses etc. Just through parent education (to exclude dairy) & herd immunity. Jack Norris [jacknorris] Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:15 PM Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children Because one (or many) people have serious allergies to milk doesn't mean that feeding kids milk, in general, is abuse. The same could be said about soy foods, nuts, citrus fruits, and many other foods. Would we want a campaign saying that feeding kids, in general, wheat, barley, and rye is child abuse based on the fact that a few kids have celiac disease and get violently ill when eating such products? Jack > " Jay Gleason " <jay.gleason > Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:05:51 -0700 > > RE: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children > > If inflicting life threatening/or ending asthma (suffocation), allergies > insistent burning red eyes (torture) bedwetting, ear infections, runny > noses, > and the myriad of other problems (cancers) caused by a compromised immune > system.. > all caused by milk is not crime. > > What is.. > > I suffered and several times almost died from this chronic > torture for thirty years as a child and adult. > > Ignorance is no excuse.. Stop this violence now.. > > The churches etc. should be the first to step out! > > When stopping milk ends the torture of a child: > > There is no question who the criminal is/was! > > Good PR, complicity and denial by the milk industry does not make them any > less criminals > > than any rapist. > > If you do not think so fill your lungs with fluid so you cannot breath for > weeks > > time and again. .. enjoy > > > Cyndi Norman [cyndi] > Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:12 PM > plcohon > Cc: ; cyndi > Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children > > > " Mr. Pete " <plcohon > Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:48:30 -0700 > > All the news about child abuse in the Church has started me thinking; (a > dangerous turn of affairs). While the world examines child abuse by > priests, which affects relatively few children, it ignores a greater > daily threat to millions of kids world-wide. Of course, I'm talking > about the child abuse inherent in feeding kids a meat-centered, > fast-food diet. > > Please tell me this is an ill-thought-out, off-the-cuff idea that you never > really gave any serious consideration to. That is the only explanation > that will make me not lose my lunch. > > You can not compare rape to eating meat. You just can't. You might be > able to make a case for the suffering of the animals being on the same > level but that's not what you're doing. You're trying to say that a human > being eating meat is suffering just as badly as a human being who is > beaten, tortured, raped, violated, and spiritually destroyed. > > If you still think these are equivelent then don't bother responding. You > aren't someone I want contact with. Ever. You haven't a clue what you're > talking about. > > This is too upseting...I'm stopping my post here. > > Cyndi > > -- > __________________________ > ___ > " There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi > Norman > something wrong with the universe. " (ST:TNG) > cyndi > > http://www.tikvah.com/ > _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists > http://www.immuneweb.org/ > > > *Tell your friends to Be-A-Veg with SFBAVeg! To , send an e-mail > to: - > *To share a message with the group: > *Manage your SFBAVeg list subscription: > -Switch to no-mail: -nomail > -Switch to daily digest: -digest > -Switch to individual messages: -normal > -Leave the group: - > *If you have questions about the list, please contact Tammy & Chris, list > admins, at -owner > * > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Jay, > I do not have an allergy to milk! Sorry. I should have read your post more carefully. While you did mention allergies and what are traditionally thought of as allergy-related symptoms, you also included a host of other things that have little to do with allergies. > Milk by compromising my (and most peoples) immune system makes me allergic > to almost everything! In terms of appealing to public sympathy via calling dairy products 'child abuse,' the only point that seems to be unquestionable in your claims about dairy is that it causes people allergies. But so do other foods and we wouldn't agree to banning them or calling them child abuse on the basis that some people have bad reactions to them. There is also a fairly well-supported argument that high amounts of dairy increases prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer. But it may protect against colon cancer. My main point is that if we are going to go after dairy as 'child abuse' we will need some pretty good evidence that it is really harming children more than your average food. Jack > Nice of you to think your collective mindlessness is an excuse.. one sick > very child is too many. > You have no idea how many children and adults are sick because of milk.. The > only way to find the acute problems asthma, bedwetting, ear infections, hay > fever, colic etc.is to go off of dairy absolutely for a week. > > But this will not show the other effects caused by childhood and lifelong > use of dairy: > > SIDs, Type 1 diabetes, leukemia, arthritis, etc. > > Milk does not belong in 1st grade any more than caffeine or cocaine! > > I know of a woman who ran a dairy free preschool.. none of the usual runny > noses etc. > > Just through parent education (to exclude dairy) & herd immunity. > > > Jack Norris [jacknorris] > Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:15 PM > > Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children > > > Because one (or many) people have serious allergies to milk doesn't mean > that feeding kids milk, in general, is abuse. The same could be said about > soy foods, nuts, citrus fruits, and many other foods. > > Would we want a campaign saying that feeding kids, in general, wheat, > barley, and rye is child abuse based on the fact that a few kids have celiac > disease and get violently ill when eating such products? > > Jack > >> " Jay Gleason " <jay.gleason >> Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:05:51 -0700 >> >> RE: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children >> >> If inflicting life threatening/or ending asthma (suffocation), allergies >> insistent burning red eyes (torture) bedwetting, ear infections, runny >> noses, >> and the myriad of other problems (cancers) caused by a compromised immune >> system.. >> all caused by milk is not crime. >> >> What is.. >> >> I suffered and several times almost died from this chronic >> torture for thirty years as a child and adult. >> >> Ignorance is no excuse.. Stop this violence now.. >> >> The churches etc. should be the first to step out! >> >> When stopping milk ends the torture of a child: >> >> There is no question who the criminal is/was! >> >> Good PR, complicity and denial by the milk industry does not make them any >> less criminals >> >> than any rapist. >> >> If you do not think so fill your lungs with fluid so you cannot breath for >> weeks >> >> time and again. .. enjoy >> >> >> Cyndi Norman [cyndi] >> Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:12 PM >> plcohon >> Cc: ; cyndi >> Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children >> >> >> " Mr. Pete " <plcohon >> Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:48:30 -0700 >> >> All the news about child abuse in the Church has started me thinking; (a >> dangerous turn of affairs). While the world examines child abuse by >> priests, which affects relatively few children, it ignores a greater >> daily threat to millions of kids world-wide. Of course, I'm talking >> about the child abuse inherent in feeding kids a meat-centered, >> fast-food diet. >> >> Please tell me this is an ill-thought-out, off-the-cuff idea that you > never >> really gave any serious consideration to. That is the only explanation >> that will make me not lose my lunch. >> >> You can not compare rape to eating meat. You just can't. You might be >> able to make a case for the suffering of the animals being on the same >> level but that's not what you're doing. You're trying to say that a human >> being eating meat is suffering just as badly as a human being who is >> beaten, tortured, raped, violated, and spiritually destroyed. >> >> If you still think these are equivelent then don't bother responding. You >> aren't someone I want contact with. Ever. You haven't a clue what you're >> talking about. >> >> This is too upseting...I'm stopping my post here. >> >> Cyndi >> >> -- >> > __________________________ >> ___ >> " There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi >> Norman >> something wrong with the universe. " (ST:TNG) >> cyndi >> >> http://www.tikvah.com/ >> _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists >> http://www.immuneweb.org/ >> >> >> *Tell your friends to Be-A-Veg with SFBAVeg! To , send an e-mail >> to: - >> *To share a message with the group: >> *Manage your SFBAVeg list subscription: >> -Switch to no-mail: -nomail >> -Switch to daily digest: -digest >> -Switch to individual messages: -normal >> -Leave the group: - >> *If you have questions about the list, please contact Tammy & Chris, list >> admins, at -owner >> * >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 The only point that seems to be unquestionable is: People will choose to remain ignorant and suffer, and by doing so inflict suffering. Choosing to listen to " experts " and " facts " instead of their bodies and the first hand experience of friends that might have them trying & doing what is prudent. Bet you think soft drinks etc. in schools are a good idea. Where were you when Big Tobacco needed you with all their " experts " & " facts " . The loss of a parent: Be it from tobacco or Bic Mac is a child abuse at any age. Dairy + Doctors ignorance " Education " + Prednisone did my dad in = stroke at 70 after suffering his whole life & letting Prednisone push him down the slippery slope the last 10 yrs. If not for dairy I know he would be alive & well today. (8 yrs later and all 6 of his grandsons would had the deep joy of knowing Ja Ja.) who was their best playmate. Jack Norris [jacknorris] Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:46 PM Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children Jay, > I do not have an allergy to milk! Sorry. I should have read your post more carefully. While you did mention allergies and what are traditionally thought of as allergy-related symptoms, you also included a host of other things that have little to do with allergies. > Milk by compromising my (and most peoples) immune system makes me allergic > to almost everything! In terms of appealing to public sympathy via calling dairy products 'child abuse,' the only point that seems to be unquestionable in your claims about dairy is that it causes people allergies. But so do other foods and we wouldn't agree to banning them or calling them child abuse on the basis that some people have bad reactions to them. There is also a fairly well-supported argument that high amounts of dairy increases prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer. But it may protect against colon cancer. My main point is that if we are going to go after dairy as 'child abuse' we will need some pretty good evidence that it is really harming children more than your average food. Jack > Nice of you to think your collective mindlessness is an excuse.. one sick > very child is too many. > You have no idea how many children and adults are sick because of milk.. The > only way to find the acute problems asthma, bedwetting, ear infections, hay > fever, colic etc.is to go off of dairy absolutely for a week. > > But this will not show the other effects caused by childhood and lifelong > use of dairy: > > SIDs, Type 1 diabetes, leukemia, arthritis, etc. > > Milk does not belong in 1st grade any more than caffeine or cocaine! > > I know of a woman who ran a dairy free preschool.. none of the usual runny > noses etc. > > Just through parent education (to exclude dairy) & herd immunity. > > > Jack Norris [jacknorris] > Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:15 PM > > Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children > > > Because one (or many) people have serious allergies to milk doesn't mean > that feeding kids milk, in general, is abuse. The same could be said about > soy foods, nuts, citrus fruits, and many other foods. > > Would we want a campaign saying that feeding kids, in general, wheat, > barley, and rye is child abuse based on the fact that a few kids have celiac > disease and get violently ill when eating such products? > > Jack > >> " Jay Gleason " <jay.gleason >> Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:05:51 -0700 >> >> RE: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children >> >> If inflicting life threatening/or ending asthma (suffocation), allergies >> insistent burning red eyes (torture) bedwetting, ear infections, runny >> noses, >> and the myriad of other problems (cancers) caused by a compromised immune >> system.. >> all caused by milk is not crime. >> >> What is.. >> >> I suffered and several times almost died from this chronic >> torture for thirty years as a child and adult. >> >> Ignorance is no excuse.. Stop this violence now.. >> >> The churches etc. should be the first to step out! >> >> When stopping milk ends the torture of a child: >> >> There is no question who the criminal is/was! >> >> Good PR, complicity and denial by the milk industry does not make them any >> less criminals >> >> than any rapist. >> >> If you do not think so fill your lungs with fluid so you cannot breath for >> weeks >> >> time and again. .. enjoy >> >> >> Cyndi Norman [cyndi] >> Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:12 PM >> plcohon >> Cc: ; cyndi >> Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children >> >> >> " Mr. Pete " <plcohon >> Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:48:30 -0700 >> >> All the news about child abuse in the Church has started me thinking; (a >> dangerous turn of affairs). While the world examines child abuse by >> priests, which affects relatively few children, it ignores a greater >> daily threat to millions of kids world-wide. Of course, I'm talking >> about the child abuse inherent in feeding kids a meat-centered, >> fast-food diet. >> >> Please tell me this is an ill-thought-out, off-the-cuff idea that you > never >> really gave any serious consideration to. That is the only explanation >> that will make me not lose my lunch. >> >> You can not compare rape to eating meat. You just can't. You might be >> able to make a case for the suffering of the animals being on the same >> level but that's not what you're doing. You're trying to say that a human >> being eating meat is suffering just as badly as a human being who is >> beaten, tortured, raped, violated, and spiritually destroyed. >> >> If you still think these are equivelent then don't bother responding. You >> aren't someone I want contact with. Ever. You haven't a clue what you're >> talking about. >> >> This is too upseting...I'm stopping my post here. >> >> Cyndi >> >> -- >> > __________________________ >> ___ >> " There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi >> Norman >> something wrong with the universe. " (ST:TNG) >> cyndi >> >> http://www.tikvah.com/ >> _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists >> http://www.immuneweb.org/ >> >> >> *Tell your friends to Be-A-Veg with SFBAVeg! To , send an e-mail >> to: - >> *To share a message with the group: >> *Manage your SFBAVeg list subscription: >> -Switch to no-mail: -nomail >> -Switch to daily digest: -digest >> -Switch to individual messages: -normal >> -Leave the group: - >> *If you have questions about the list, please contact Tammy & Chris, list >> admins, at -owner >> * >> >> >> >> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 Jay, > Bet you think soft drinks etc. in schools are a good idea. I wouldn't say that kids should never be allowed to drink a soft drink, but I don't think they are healthy food choices. > Where were you when Big Tobacco needed you with all their " experts " & > " facts " . I'm not so concerned what a particular group of experts has to say as much as determining facts in a logical manner. I would say the best way is by making a hypothesis and then testing it. If we don't do this, we just have everyone saying various things that they happen to think at a given time. How could we agree on anything? Of course, we should be concerned about the people testing the hypotheses and how they are doing it. But I don't think it's reasonable to reject all scientific information on the basis of a few bad apples. There are a lot of people already working on, and testing many of the claims about dairy and disease. For example, you can go to: http://www4.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi and paste in: (dairy OR milk) AND asthma and see many of the studies on this subject. Or paste in: (dairy OR milk) AND (prostate cancer) and browse down those results. I'm sorry about your father passing away. Jack > The loss of a parent: Be it from tobacco or Bic Mac is a child abuse at any > age. > > Dairy + Doctors ignorance " Education " + Prednisone did my dad in = stroke at > 70 > after suffering his whole life & letting Prednisone push him down the > slippery slope the last 10 yrs. > > If not for dairy I know he would be alive & well today. (8 yrs later and all > 6 of his grandsons would > had the deep joy of knowing Ja Ja.) who was their best playmate. > > > > Jack Norris [jacknorris] > Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:46 PM > > Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children > > > Jay, > >> I do not have an allergy to milk! > > Sorry. I should have read your post more carefully. While you did mention > allergies and what are traditionally thought of as allergy-related symptoms, > you also included a host of other things that have little to do with > allergies. > >> Milk by compromising my (and most peoples) immune system makes me allergic >> to almost everything! > > In terms of appealing to public sympathy via calling dairy products 'child > abuse,' the only point that seems to be unquestionable in your claims about > dairy is that it causes people allergies. But so do other foods and we > wouldn't agree to banning them or calling them child abuse on the basis that > some people have bad reactions to them. > > There is also a fairly well-supported argument that high amounts of dairy > increases prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer. But it may protect > against colon cancer. > > My main point is that if we are going to go after dairy as 'child abuse' we > will need some pretty good evidence that it is really harming children more > than your average food. > > Jack > > > >> Nice of you to think your collective mindlessness is an excuse.. one sick >> very child is too many. > >> You have no idea how many children and adults are sick because of milk.. > The >> only way to find the acute problems asthma, bedwetting, ear infections, > hay >> fever, colic etc.is to go off of dairy absolutely for a week. >> >> But this will not show the other effects caused by childhood and lifelong >> use of dairy: >> >> SIDs, Type 1 diabetes, leukemia, arthritis, etc. >> >> Milk does not belong in 1st grade any more than caffeine or cocaine! >> >> I know of a woman who ran a dairy free preschool.. none of the usual runny >> noses etc. >> >> Just through parent education (to exclude dairy) & herd immunity. >> >> >> Jack Norris [jacknorris] >> Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:15 PM >> >> Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children >> >> >> Because one (or many) people have serious allergies to milk doesn't mean >> that feeding kids milk, in general, is abuse. The same could be said about >> soy foods, nuts, citrus fruits, and many other foods. >> >> Would we want a campaign saying that feeding kids, in general, wheat, >> barley, and rye is child abuse based on the fact that a few kids have > celiac >> disease and get violently ill when eating such products? >> >> Jack >> >>> " Jay Gleason " <jay.gleason >>> Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:05:51 -0700 >>> >>> RE: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children >>> >>> If inflicting life threatening/or ending asthma (suffocation), allergies >>> insistent burning red eyes (torture) bedwetting, ear infections, runny >>> noses, >>> and the myriad of other problems (cancers) caused by a compromised immune >>> system.. >>> all caused by milk is not crime. >>> >>> What is.. >>> >>> I suffered and several times almost died from this chronic >>> torture for thirty years as a child and adult. >>> >>> Ignorance is no excuse.. Stop this violence now.. >>> >>> The churches etc. should be the first to step out! >>> >>> When stopping milk ends the torture of a child: >>> >>> There is no question who the criminal is/was! >>> >>> Good PR, complicity and denial by the milk industry does not make them > any >>> less criminals >>> >>> than any rapist. >>> >>> If you do not think so fill your lungs with fluid so you cannot breath > for >>> weeks >>> >>> time and again. .. enjoy >>> >>> >>> Cyndi Norman [cyndi] >>> Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:12 PM >>> plcohon >>> Cc: ; cyndi >>> Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children >>> >>> >>> " Mr. Pete " <plcohon >>> Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:48:30 -0700 >>> >>> All the news about child abuse in the Church has started me thinking; (a >>> dangerous turn of affairs). While the world examines child abuse by >>> priests, which affects relatively few children, it ignores a greater >>> daily threat to millions of kids world-wide. Of course, I'm talking >>> about the child abuse inherent in feeding kids a meat-centered, >>> fast-food diet. >>> >>> Please tell me this is an ill-thought-out, off-the-cuff idea that you >> never >>> really gave any serious consideration to. That is the only explanation >>> that will make me not lose my lunch. >>> >>> You can not compare rape to eating meat. You just can't. You might be >>> able to make a case for the suffering of the animals being on the same >>> level but that's not what you're doing. You're trying to say that a > human >>> being eating meat is suffering just as badly as a human being who is >>> beaten, tortured, raped, violated, and spiritually destroyed. >>> >>> If you still think these are equivelent then don't bother responding. > You >>> aren't someone I want contact with. Ever. You haven't a clue what > you're >>> talking about. >>> >>> This is too upseting...I'm stopping my post here. >>> >>> Cyndi >>> >>> -- >>> >> > __________________________ >>> ___ >>> " There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi >>> Norman >>> something wrong with the universe. " (ST:TNG) >>> cyndi >>> >>> http://www.tikvah.com/ >>> _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists >>> http://www.immuneweb.org/ >>> >>> >>> *Tell your friends to Be-A-Veg with SFBAVeg! To , send an > e-mail >>> to: - >>> *To share a message with the group: >>> *Manage your SFBAVeg list subscription: >>> -Switch to no-mail: -nomail >>> -Switch to daily digest: -digest >>> -Switch to individual messages: -normal >>> -Leave the group: - >>> *If you have questions about the list, please contact Tammy & Chris, list >>> admins, at -owner >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 I would like to interject without getting too much in the middle of what appears to be a conflict. When you brought up the issue about children's health, someone suggested that they read the article written by Will Tuttle posted in VegNews nearly a year ago. I have no particular opinion about the article, as I didn't even read it in it's entirety (sorry Will). However, I did put the VegNews papers out at a seminar that I was attending at the time (with open minded folks mind you) and the response was not positive at all. In fact, the feedback I recieved was that most people were offended by the article just based on the title and chose not to read it at all. Later, I recall a member of the vegetarian community, wrote a letter to VegNews letting them know that she felt that the letter was inappropriate. I know this person and they very much embrace the idea of a vegan diet. So evidentally it didn't sit well with her either. I believe what the problem was that it pointed a finger at well-meaning parents and made them feel guilty for the way they are raising their children. As was mentioned in one of the e-mails, people are concerned for their children often more than they are concerned for their own health. And of course they want to think that they are doing the right thing. I don't know about you, but nearly everytime I've stepped in to offer advice to a parent, I've gotten a very defensive response. I also find for me personally, making me feel guilty about anything makes me less inclined to listen or adhere to what's being asked of me. Based on my own experience, I would have to say that I feel the most persuasive person in the vegetarian community is John Robbins, author of the best selling book, " Diet for a New America " (I'm sure you know who he is) His approach is easy to listen to because he doesn't blame the individual, he blames corporations and the institutions. This allows people to listen without feeling guilty and they can then make choices based on what they've learned. And they've learned because they actually stuck around to hear it. It also gets them a little fired up so they can get passionate about changing certain issues. Anyway, there's my two cents and I don't have time to respond further. Good luck to you and peace to all, Syndee Collison P.S. I love the comment about the elephant and the embryo. What a good reminder! Jack Norris wrote: > Jay, > > > Bet you think soft drinks etc. in schools are a good idea. > > I wouldn't say that kids should never be allowed to drink a soft drink, but > I don't think they are healthy food choices. > > > Where were you when Big Tobacco needed you with all their " experts " & > > " facts " . > > I'm not so concerned what a particular group of experts has to say as much > as determining facts in a logical manner. I would say the best way is by > making a hypothesis and then testing it. If we don't do this, we just have > everyone saying various things that they happen to think at a given time. > How could we agree on anything? > > Of course, we should be concerned about the people testing the hypotheses > and how they are doing it. But I don't think it's reasonable to reject all > scientific information on the basis of a few bad apples. There are a lot of > people already working on, and testing many of the claims about dairy and > disease. For example, you can go to: > > http://www4.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi > > and paste in: > > (dairy OR milk) AND asthma > > and see many of the studies on this subject. Or paste in: > > (dairy OR milk) AND (prostate cancer) > > and browse down those results. > > I'm sorry about your father passing away. > > Jack > > > The loss of a parent: Be it from tobacco or Bic Mac is a child abuse at any > > age. > > > > Dairy + Doctors ignorance " Education " + Prednisone did my dad in = stroke at > > 70 > > after suffering his whole life & letting Prednisone push him down the > > slippery slope the last 10 yrs. > > > > If not for dairy I know he would be alive & well today. (8 yrs later and all > > 6 of his grandsons would > > had the deep joy of knowing Ja Ja.) who was their best playmate. > > > > > > > > Jack Norris [jacknorris] > > Tuesday, April 23, 2002 5:46 PM > > > > Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children > > > > > > Jay, > > > >> I do not have an allergy to milk! > > > > Sorry. I should have read your post more carefully. While you did mention > > allergies and what are traditionally thought of as allergy-related symptoms, > > you also included a host of other things that have little to do with > > allergies. > > > >> Milk by compromising my (and most peoples) immune system makes me allergic > >> to almost everything! > > > > In terms of appealing to public sympathy via calling dairy products 'child > > abuse,' the only point that seems to be unquestionable in your claims about > > dairy is that it causes people allergies. But so do other foods and we > > wouldn't agree to banning them or calling them child abuse on the basis that > > some people have bad reactions to them. > > > > There is also a fairly well-supported argument that high amounts of dairy > > increases prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer. But it may protect > > against colon cancer. > > > > My main point is that if we are going to go after dairy as 'child abuse' we > > will need some pretty good evidence that it is really harming children more > > than your average food. > > > > Jack > > > > > > > >> Nice of you to think your collective mindlessness is an excuse.. one sick > >> very child is too many. > > > >> You have no idea how many children and adults are sick because of milk.. > > The > >> only way to find the acute problems asthma, bedwetting, ear infections, > > hay > >> fever, colic etc.is to go off of dairy absolutely for a week. > >> > >> But this will not show the other effects caused by childhood and lifelong > >> use of dairy: > >> > >> SIDs, Type 1 diabetes, leukemia, arthritis, etc. > >> > >> Milk does not belong in 1st grade any more than caffeine or cocaine! > >> > >> I know of a woman who ran a dairy free preschool.. none of the usual runny > >> noses etc. > >> > >> Just through parent education (to exclude dairy) & herd immunity. > >> > >> > >> Jack Norris [jacknorris] > >> Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:15 PM > >> > >> Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children > >> > >> > >> Because one (or many) people have serious allergies to milk doesn't mean > >> that feeding kids milk, in general, is abuse. The same could be said about > >> soy foods, nuts, citrus fruits, and many other foods. > >> > >> Would we want a campaign saying that feeding kids, in general, wheat, > >> barley, and rye is child abuse based on the fact that a few kids have > > celiac > >> disease and get violently ill when eating such products? > >> > >> Jack > >> > >>> " Jay Gleason " <jay.gleason > >>> Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:05:51 -0700 > >>> > >>> RE: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children > >>> > >>> If inflicting life threatening/or ending asthma (suffocation), allergies > >>> insistent burning red eyes (torture) bedwetting, ear infections, runny > >>> noses, > >>> and the myriad of other problems (cancers) caused by a compromised immune > >>> system.. > >>> all caused by milk is not crime. > >>> > >>> What is.. > >>> > >>> I suffered and several times almost died from this chronic > >>> torture for thirty years as a child and adult. > >>> > >>> Ignorance is no excuse.. Stop this violence now.. > >>> > >>> The churches etc. should be the first to step out! > >>> > >>> When stopping milk ends the torture of a child: > >>> > >>> There is no question who the criminal is/was! > >>> > >>> Good PR, complicity and denial by the milk industry does not make them > > any > >>> less criminals > >>> > >>> than any rapist. > >>> > >>> If you do not think so fill your lungs with fluid so you cannot breath > > for > >>> weeks > >>> > >>> time and again. .. enjoy > >>> > >>> > >>> Cyndi Norman [cyndi] > >>> Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:12 PM > >>> plcohon > >>> Cc: ; cyndi > >>> Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children > >>> > >>> > >>> " Mr. Pete " <plcohon > >>> Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:48:30 -0700 > >>> > >>> All the news about child abuse in the Church has started me thinking; (a > >>> dangerous turn of affairs). While the world examines child abuse by > >>> priests, which affects relatively few children, it ignores a greater > >>> daily threat to millions of kids world-wide. Of course, I'm talking > >>> about the child abuse inherent in feeding kids a meat-centered, > >>> fast-food diet. > >>> > >>> Please tell me this is an ill-thought-out, off-the-cuff idea that you > >> never > >>> really gave any serious consideration to. That is the only explanation > >>> that will make me not lose my lunch. > >>> > >>> You can not compare rape to eating meat. You just can't. You might be > >>> able to make a case for the suffering of the animals being on the same > >>> level but that's not what you're doing. You're trying to say that a > > human > >>> being eating meat is suffering just as badly as a human being who is > >>> beaten, tortured, raped, violated, and spiritually destroyed. > >>> > >>> If you still think these are equivelent then don't bother responding. > > You > >>> aren't someone I want contact with. Ever. You haven't a clue what > > you're > >>> talking about. > >>> > >>> This is too upseting...I'm stopping my post here. > >>> > >>> Cyndi > >>> > >>> -- > >>> > >> > > __________________________ > >>> ___ > >>> " There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi > >>> Norman > >>> something wrong with the universe. " (ST:TNG) > >>> cyndi > >>> > >>> http://www.tikvah.com/ > >>> _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists > >>> http://www.immuneweb.org/ > >>> > >>> > >>> *Tell your friends to Be-A-Veg with SFBAVeg! To , send an > > e-mail > >>> to: - > >>> *To share a message with the group: > >>> *Manage your SFBAVeg list subscription: > >>> -Switch to no-mail: -nomail > >>> -Switch to daily digest: -digest > >>> -Switch to individual messages: -normal > >>> -Leave the group: - > >>> *If you have questions about the list, please contact Tammy & Chris, list > >>> admins, at -owner > >>> * > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 24, 2002 Report Share Posted April 24, 2002 >My main point is that if we are going to go after dairy >as 'child abuse' we >will need some pretty good evidence that it is really >harming children more >than your average food. I know now that dairy has an adverse effect in the diet, whether it is due to a direct allergic reaction or the obvious chronic maladies. But the population at large will only respond favorably to tried and true scientific evidence. Statement echoed in/from a crowd are as a clanging symbol, irritating only, and causing one to cover their ears. I say, Show me the science. Even better, show them. Steve " Jack Norris " <jacknorris Tue Apr 23 17:46:11 PDT 2002 Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children >Jay, > >> I do not have an allergy to milk! > >Sorry. I should have read your post more carefully. While you did mention >allergies and what are traditionally thought of as allergy-related symptoms, >you also included a host of other things that have little to do with >allergies. > >> Milk by compromising my (and most peoples) immune system makes me allergic >> to almost everything! > >In terms of appealing to public sympathy via calling dairy products 'child >abuse,' the only point that seems to be unquestionable in your claims about >dairy is that it causes people allergies. But so do other foods and we >wouldn't agree to banning them or calling them child abuse on the basis that >some people have bad reactions to them. > >There is also a fairly well-supported argument that high amounts of dairy >increases prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer. But it may protect >against colon cancer. > >My main point is that if we are going to go after dairy as 'child abuse' we >will need some pretty good evidence that it is really harming children more >than your average food. > >Jack > > > >> Nice of you to think your collective mindlessness is an excuse.. one sick >> very child is too many. > >> You have no idea how many children and adults are sick because of milk.. The >> only way to find the acute problems asthma, bedwetting, ear infections, hay >> fever, colic etc.is to go off of dairy absolutely for a week. >> >> But this will not show the other effects caused by childhood and lifelong >> use of dairy: >> >> SIDs, Type 1 diabetes, leukemia, arthritis, etc. >> >> Milk does not belong in 1st grade any more than caffeine or cocaine! >> >> I know of a woman who ran a dairy free preschool.. none of the usual runny >> noses etc. >> >> Just through parent education (to exclude dairy) & herd immunity. >> >> >> Jack Norris [jacknorris] >> Tuesday, April 23, 2002 4:15 PM >> >> Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children >> >> >> Because one (or many) people have serious allergies to milk doesn't mean >> that feeding kids milk, in general, is abuse. The same could be said about >> soy foods, nuts, citrus fruits, and many other foods. >> >> Would we want a campaign saying that feeding kids, in general, wheat, >> barley, and rye is child abuse based on the fact that a few kids have celiac >> disease and get violently ill when eating such products? >> >> Jack >> >>> " Jay Gleason " <jay.gleason >>> Tue, 23 Apr 2002 16:05:51 -0700 >>> >>> RE: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children >>> >>> If inflicting life threatening/or ending asthma (suffocation), allergies >>> insistent burning red eyes (torture) bedwetting, ear infections, runny >>> noses, >>> and the myriad of other problems (cancers) caused by a compromised immune >>> system.. >>> all caused by milk is not crime. >>> >>> What is.. >>> >>> I suffered and several times almost died from this chronic >>> torture for thirty years as a child and adult. >>> >>> Ignorance is no excuse.. Stop this violence now.. >>> >>> The churches etc. should be the first to step out! >>> >>> When stopping milk ends the torture of a child: >>> >>> There is no question who the criminal is/was! >>> >>> Good PR, complicity and denial by the milk industry does not make them any >>> less criminals >>> >>> than any rapist. >>> >>> If you do not think so fill your lungs with fluid so you cannot breath for >>> weeks >>> >>> time and again. .. enjoy >>> >>> >>> Cyndi Norman [cyndi] >>> Tuesday, April 23, 2002 3:12 PM >>> plcohon >>> Cc: ; cyndi >>> Re: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children >>> >>> >>> " Mr. Pete " <plcohon >>> Tue, 23 Apr 2002 14:48:30 -0700 >>> >>> All the news about child abuse in the Church has started me thinking; (a >>> dangerous turn of affairs). While the world examines child abuse by >>> priests, which affects relatively few children, it ignores a greater >>> daily threat to millions of kids world-wide. Of course, I'm talking >>> about the child abuse inherent in feeding kids a meat-centered, >>> fast-food diet. >>> >>> Please tell me this is an ill-thought-out, off-the-cuff idea that you >> never >>> really gave any serious consideration to. That is the only explanation >>> that will make me not lose my lunch. >>> >>> You can not compare rape to eating meat. You just can't. You might be >>> able to make a case for the suffering of the animals being on the same >>> level but that's not what you're doing. You're trying to say that a human >>> being eating meat is suffering just as badly as a human being who is >>> beaten, tortured, raped, violated, and spiritually destroyed. >>> >>> If you still think these are equivelent then don't bother responding. You >>> aren't someone I want contact with. Ever. You haven't a clue what you're >>> talking about. >>> >>> This is too upseting...I'm stopping my post here. >>> >>> Cyndi >>> >>> -- >>> >> __________________________ >>> ___ >>> " There's nothing wrong with me. Maybe there's Cyndi >>> Norman >>> something wrong with the universe. " (ST:TNG) >>> cyndi >>> >>> http://www.tikvah.com/ >>> _________________ Owner of the Immune Website & Lists >>> http://www.immuneweb.org/ >>> >>> >>> *Tell your friends to Be-A-Veg with SFBAVeg! To , send an e-mail >>> to: - >>> *To share a message with the group: >>> *Manage your SFBAVeg list subscription: >>> -Switch to no-mail: -nomail >>> -Switch to daily digest: -digest >>> -Switch to individual messages: -normal >>> -Leave the group: - >>> *If you have questions about the list, please contact Tammy & Chris, list >>> admins, at -owner >>> * >>> >>> >>> >>> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 But the population at large will only respond favorably to tried and true scientific evidence. Statement echoed in/from a crowd are as a clanging symbol, irritating only, and causing one to cover their ears. I say, Show me the science. Even better, show them. PCRM (The Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine) has sponsored and showcased numerous studies (scientific, documented, etc.) that prove meat, eggs and dairy products - in large and small amounts - are harmful to infants, toddlers and children. They have access to hundreds of published medical studies, population studies, etc. that show a strong link between animal products and poor health in children. The problem is that the mainstream media and even many alternative publications choose not to highlight these studies. PCRM regularly sends out press releases and holds press-conferences when new studies are released, yet they rarely garner the gaze of the almighty " popular " eye. The news applauds innovative medical breakthroughs in detection and treatment, yet prevention is a quick side-note shuffled to the periphery - if mentioned at all. Pediatricians (I recently attended the American Academy of Pediatrics conference in San Francisco) are inundated and wooed by pharmaceutical companies who preach " management. " As immoral and selfish as it may be, these companies make more profit and the doctors make more money if our children remain ill. Nutrition courses are rare and almost never required in medical school, so to make matters worse most doctors know very little about the role of diet in preventative medicine. So when I take my toddler to her pediatrician, I am not surprised to find posters selling asthma drugs, diabetes drugs and tubes or surgical procedures for reoccurring ear infections - and that her doctor knows very little about how completely removing dairy from a child's diet can alleviate the symptoms and often eliminate these very diseases and infections. One of the most predominate ailments affecting our children today is the painful ear infection. It occurs in almost every dairy-consuming infant and toddler in America. Strict vegetarian or vegan infants and children do not get ear infections. It's very simple, they just don't. There are quite a few published studies that describe in detail the role of dairy in promoting fluid build up, inflammation, infection, etc. The corporations who supply the antibiotics that fight ear infections spend billions of dollars each year just to advertise their products. Their profit is undeniably linked to the suffering of our children. The number one way to prevent ear infections is to raise infants on human breast milk and to avoid all dairy products. Most incongruous, many pediatricians prescribe antibiotics for ear infections while their office walls are adorned with posters sponsored by the National Fluid Milk Processor Promotion Board. I don't believe parents are " abusing " their children by preparing and purchasing unhealthy foods (foods high in saturated fat, cholesterol, devoid of fiber, high in sugar, highly processed, etc.) - but just as doctors used to appear in advertisements promoting cigarettes, animal products have been improperly promoted and grossly misrepresented in popular culture as well as in the doctor's office. For access to scientific studies documenting the ill effects of animal products in relation to infants, children as well as adults, check out: www.pcrm.org Simone Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 25, 2002 Report Share Posted April 25, 2002 I say science ..smiance People are tired of he says she says.. Some will listen to your science Most will listen to their MDs who will listen to someone else's science.. Suggest people try something for a short time if you know it have a high chance of making them or their child feel a lot better quickly. If they do and it does you have a convert.. and personal creditability. If you make yourself an example of perfect health many will listen to you.. because they will want to be like you. ( You must be doing something right? ) If you look average or worse you will have much less of a chance. But most will listen to their MDs & get whatever drug..is hot and being pushed. Diet will never be mentioned.. or incorrect information will be given. MDs will continue to have diets (and exercise habits) as bad or worse than most.. The worst diet with proper exercise is usually better than the best diet without. It might be noted 12 years ago (before the Zone fad) most of the outstanding triathletes were vegan or near vegan. simone spearman [pohevol] Wednesday, April 24, 2002 4:24 PM RE: [sFBAVeg] The other threat to children But the population at large will only respond favorably to tried and true scientific evidence. Statement echoed in/from a crowd are as a clanging symbol, irritating only, and causing one to cover their ears. I say, Show me the science. Even better, show them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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