Guest guest Posted August 1, 2002 Report Share Posted August 1, 2002 I¹m for non-violence, but I believe in self-defense. That¹s why I have a black belt in something. So wanting to kill Osama is coming out of your instinct for survival, which is a completely natural instinct all animals have. I recall Ghandi discussing how his form of non-violence would never have worked under the Nazi¹s, but only against a country that believed in democracy (or something along those lines). tony On 7/31/02 2:04 PM, " krsna_shaelaja " <krsna_shaelaja wrote: > Ok, so I'm a guy with a lot of inner conflict. > > I'm vegetarian because that's where I draw the > line. I will not be party to the slaughter of > sentient beings. > > HOWEVER, I want see Osama Bin Laden destroyed. > > Therefore, much as I respect non-violence as > an philosophy of life, I sometimes get outraged > by innocent people getting killed and I want > to retaliate eye-for-an-eye. > > Is there such a thing as violent vegetarian or > someone who thinks violent retribution is > sometimes necessary and yet, be a vegetarian ? > Is this being totally inconsistent ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2002 Report Share Posted August 1, 2002 Violence begets violence. If Osama is killed what good would be accomplished? Judging, labeling, demanding, ~ violence. I heard today Turkey is doing away with the death penalty.. To bad the US does not want to join the European union. Pain is most often self induced.. there are ways of hearing judgments, labels, demands etc. and not being pained by them.. We are grown ups now.. We do not have to follow our programming.. We can bypass any pain..(caused by what others think of us) we do not have to react.. Instead if we could choose to look at what fear triggered the individual to create judgments.. then to empathize, empathize, empathize, and if they want.. find what needs related to this fear need meeting.. And ask if they would like help requesting what the really need in a more effective ( & not so coincidentally less violent) way. If I have a suggestion.. I ask if they would care to hear it? Myself willing to hear " no " . Otherwise I am telling them what they " should " do and that is not a request.. (It is a demand) If you request things without labeling or judging.. It is much easier to for the requested to empathize & grant.. However if you judge or label the requested.. your chances of having your request granted are very low. Check you moral indignation & rights at the door.. Listen to feelings without judgment.. understand needs. Empathy is what non-violence is all about.. Empathize with yourself, friends, enemies, rich, poor, animals, plants, rocks, art, ugliness, beauty. Judging, labeling, demanding, ~ violence. Not so much to those judged but more to yourself.. It is: a waste of your time & energy, painful to you, and counterproductive in your relations.. Empathy is kind to them, kind to you, and productive in your relations.. krsna_shaelaja [krsna_shaelaja] Wednesday, July 31, 2002 2:05 PM [sFBAVeg] Is being a vegetarian same as non-violence ? Ok, so I'm a guy with a lot of inner conflict. I'm vegetarian because that's where I draw the line. I will not be party to the slaughter of sentient beings. HOWEVER, I want see Osama Bin Laden destroyed. Therefore, much as I respect non-violence as an philosophy of life, I sometimes get outraged by innocent people getting killed and I want to retaliate eye-for-an-eye. Is there such a thing as violent vegetarian or someone who thinks violent retribution is sometimes necessary and yet, be a vegetarian ? Is this being totally inconsistent ? *Tell your friends to Be-A-Veg with SFBAVeg! To , send an e-mail to: - *To share a message with the group: *Manage your SFBAVeg list subscription: -Switch to no-mail: -nomail -Switch to daily digest: -digest -Switch to individual messages: -normal -Leave the group: - *If you have questions about the list, please contact Tammy and Chris, list admins, at -owner */ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2002 Report Share Posted August 1, 2002 - " Tony Martin " <veggiedude " krsna_shaelaja " <krsna_shaelaja; Wednesday, July 31, 2002 7:22 PM Re: [sFBAVeg] Is being a vegetarian same as non-violence ? I¹m for non-violence, but I believe in self-defense. That¹s why I have a black belt in something. So wanting to kill Osama is coming out of your instinct for survival, which is a completely natural instinct all animals have. I recall Ghandi discussing how his form of non-violence would never have worked under the Nazi¹s, but only against a country that believed in democracy (or something along those lines). tony ----------------------- Is this why it's (the Ghandian non-violence) not working in AmeriKa? Non-violence/Passive Resistance/Civil Disobediance hasn't worked to change a thing in AmeriKa in decades....(IMHO because the vast majority of AmeriKans are right-wing reactionary themselves.) The Government/Mass Media both discount and marginalize any forms of protest used by Vegans/Greens/Liberals...don't they? And community groups that demand 'justice' after racist murders by Police Authorities, get the same type of treatment. And it's hard to justify all the thousands of Innocent people we've killed in Afghanistan to 'hunting Bin Laden, Taliban, etc.' Not to mention the human right's abuses being committed by our forces against the hostages being held in Cuba (land which we hold unlawfully by force) by our military. Not to mention the covert murders committed by the thousands by U.S. proxies around the world to maintain our stranglehold on foreign materials and markets and to keep them all 'god-fearing capitalists'. Amerika is corrupt at the core. Until enough of us are clamoring for a new 'kindler-gentler nation' as Dubya's dad called for, and calling for massive changes in our socio-legal-economic system; cruel factory-farming will go on, more Osama's will step to the lead in trying to kill us for our unjust backing of Dictatorships like Israel, Saudi Arabia, and China, and the cycle of pain and violence goes on and on. ~Ronni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2002 Report Share Posted August 1, 2002 Many people are vegetarian for their health, not for any feeling towards animals or the environment. Thus in all likelihood there are many non-pacifist vegetarians out there. And to be honest, many of us who are very anti-violence have had to consider our positions closely after last years terrorist attacks. krsna_shaelaja wrote: > > Ok, so I'm a guy with a lot of inner conflict. > > I'm vegetarian because that's where I draw the > line. I will not be party to the slaughter of > sentient beings. > > HOWEVER, I want see Osama Bin Laden destroyed. > > Therefore, much as I respect non-violence as > an philosophy of life, I sometimes get outraged > by innocent people getting killed and I want > to retaliate eye-for-an-eye. > > Is there such a thing as violent vegetarian or > someone who thinks violent retribution is > sometimes necessary and yet, be a vegetarian ? > Is this being totally inconsistent ?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2002 Report Share Posted August 1, 2002 American philosopher George Santayana wrote that the only thing necessary for evil to triumph is for enough good people to do nothing. Those who would stand by in the face of violent evil are effectively acquiescing to that evil. Those who choose self-defense, or the defense of others unable to defend themselves, even if it involves the reasonable use of violence, do what decency and justice demand. Nothing about becoming a vegan or veggie necessitates cowardice or foolishness. Idealistic values do one little good in the grave. I'm a vegan out of compassion, but I won't play the fool. I would rather live in a world free from evil and injustice. But as long as they exist, we have a moral duty to resist. Thus, I am proud to support America's self defense against terrorism, and Israel's self defense against the next Holocaust. Decency and justice demand no less. No, Krsna_Shaelaja, you're not being inconsistent, you're just accepting the existence of evil in this complex world of ours and refusing to acquiesce to it. You have my respect. - krsna_shaelaja Wednesday, July 31, 2002 2:04 PM [sFBAVeg] Is being a vegetarian same as non-violence ? Ok, so I'm a guy with a lot of inner conflict. I'm vegetarian because that's where I draw the line. I will not be party to the slaughter of sentient beings. HOWEVER, I want see Osama Bin Laden destroyed. Therefore, much as I respect non-violence as an philosophy of life, I sometimes get outraged by innocent people getting killed and I want to retaliate eye-for-an-eye. Is there such a thing as violent vegetarian or someone who thinks violent retribution is sometimes necessary and yet, be a vegetarian ? Is this being totally inconsistent ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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