Guest guest Posted August 19, 2002 Report Share Posted August 19, 2002 Hello all, My friend Pali Boucher, who awhile back launched her own 501©3 organization, RocketDog Rescue, needs to raise funds for food, surgeries, etc. Please check out the invitation below and consider attending, and maybe volunteering! Janice Rothstein ---------- " RocketDog Rescue " <palisdoghouse Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:53:13 -0700 gata " Dolores Bark! " You're invited to: " Dolores Bark! " Hosted by: RocketDog Rescue To view the full invitation, click here! <http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY & li=iq> We have had difficulty with the first invitation that was sent out, if you have already received one, please try to register again..Thank you! I hope to see you all at our first annual " Dolores BARK! " This Evite invitation is covered by Evite's privacy policy, updated 01/09/01. <http://www.www.evite.com/help/lookupPageByName/noheaders?commd=doPop & popt=P olicies & name=Policies & nosearch=OK> HAVING TROUBLE? If the " To view the full invitation, click here! " link above didn't take you to your Invite, try double-clicking the link below (or copy and paste it into your web browser's location bar and hit 'Enter'): http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY To remove yourself from this guest list please above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2002 Report Share Posted August 19, 2002 Last time I checked, dogs and cats weren't vegetarians or vegans. How much of the animals raised for slaughter go to feed fido and fluffy? And how much are animals simply surrogates for the empty emotional lives that modern capitalism gives us? If you want to be good to animals, don't own one. --- Janice Rothstein <gata wrote: > Hello all, > > My friend Pali Boucher, who awhile back launched her > own 501©3 > organization, > RocketDog Rescue, needs to raise funds for food, > surgeries, etc. Please > check out the invitation below and consider > attending, and maybe > volunteering! > > Janice Rothstein > > ---------- > " RocketDog Rescue " <palisdoghouse > Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:53:13 -0700 > gata > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > You're invited to: > " Dolores Bark! " > > Hosted by: > RocketDog Rescue > > > To view the full invitation, click here! > <http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY & li=iq> > > > > > We have had difficulty with the first > invitation that was sent out, > if you have already received one, please try to > register again..Thank you! I > hope to see you all at our first annual " Dolores > BARK! " > > > This Evite invitation is covered by Evite's privacy > policy, updated > 01/09/01. > <http://www.www.evite.com/help/lookupPageByName/noheaders?commd=doPop & popt=P > olicies & name=Policies & nosearch=OK> > > > > > HAVING TROUBLE? > > If the " To view the full invitation, click here! " > link above didn't take you > to your Invite, try double-clicking the link below > (or copy and paste it > into your web browser's location bar and hit > 'Enter'): > http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY > > To remove yourself from this guest list please click > on the link above. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2002 Report Share Posted August 19, 2002 Without getting into the issue of whether humans should be the guardians of animal companions, it is noteworthy that there is an option to feeding meat to the dogs we already have or are rescuing: vegetarian dog food. There are several brands on the market. I fed my Dalmatian one brand (which came in kibble and cans) from the time she was 2 years old and she lived a long, healthy life before passing away at a ripe old age. - florkle Janice Rothstein ; SFBAVEG Monday, August 19, 2002 9:12 AM Re: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " Last time I checked, dogs and cats weren't vegetarians or vegans. How much of the animals raised for slaughter go to feed fido and fluffy? And how much are animals simply surrogates for the empty emotional lives that modern capitalism gives us? If you want to be good to animals, don't own one. --- Janice Rothstein <gata wrote: > Hello all, > > My friend Pali Boucher, who awhile back launched her > own 501©3 > organization, > RocketDog Rescue, needs to raise funds for food, > surgeries, etc. Please > check out the invitation below and consider > attending, and maybe > volunteering! > > Janice Rothstein > > ---------- > " RocketDog Rescue " <palisdoghouse > Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:53:13 -0700 > gata > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > You're invited to: > " Dolores Bark! " > > Hosted by: > RocketDog Rescue > > > To view the full invitation, click here! > <http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY & li=iq> > > > > > We have had difficulty with the first > invitation that was sent out, > if you have already received one, please try to > register again..Thank you! I > hope to see you all at our first annual " Dolores > BARK! " > > > This Evite invitation is covered by Evite's privacy > policy, updated > 01/09/01. > <http://www.www.evite.com/help/lookupPageByName/noheaders?commd=doPop & popt=P > olicies & name=Policies & nosearch=OK> > > > > > HAVING TROUBLE? > > If the " To view the full invitation, click here! " > link above didn't take you > to your Invite, try double-clicking the link below > (or copy and paste it > into your web browser's location bar and hit > 'Enter'): > http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY > > To remove yourself from this guest list please click > on the link above. > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > removed] > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2002 Report Share Posted August 19, 2002 1) Cats are carnivores, dogs are omnivores. It's not natural for cats to be vegans, it can be done with supplements and special food, but really, who's going out on the Serengeti and giving the lions taurine pills so the antelope will live in peace? There are food chains, it is natural. Some cats and dogs may do well on vegan diets, but some do not. 2) Almost all dogs and cats will be killed if they are not adopted. This is a fact - the shelters kill off dogs, cats, bunnies, rats, and other " unwanted " animals on a daily basis. Is it better to not adopt a cat or dog and let it die in the shelter? There aren't many other options in this world: either the animal dies, or it gets adopted by someone who (hopefully) loves and cherishes the animal. There aren't enough natural habitats to release millions of cats and dogs into, and we've bred many of their survival instincts out of them. I don't feel that I " own " my cats - but I did save them from possible death and I do provide a good home for them, and I will take care of them for the rest of their lives as I doubt they would live any sort of quality life if I were to dump them in the middle of the woods and assume they would be able to fend for themselves. I would never buy from a breeder or a pet store, and if there were no pet overpopulation problem I would never purposely aquire cats, but there is and so my options are limited. And I must say, that's quite a judgemental statement about empty emotional lives... -Kim On Mon, 19 Aug 2002, florkle wrote: > Last time I checked, dogs and cats weren't vegetarians > or vegans. > > How much of the animals raised for slaughter go to > feed fido and fluffy? > > And how much are animals simply surrogates for the > empty emotional lives that modern capitalism gives us? > > If you want to be good to animals, don't own one. > > --- Janice Rothstein <gata wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > My friend Pali Boucher, who awhile back launched her > > own 501©3 > > organization, > > RocketDog Rescue, needs to raise funds for food, > > surgeries, etc. Please > > check out the invitation below and consider > > attending, and maybe > > volunteering! > > > > Janice Rothstein > > > > ---------- > > " RocketDog Rescue " <palisdoghouse > > Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:53:13 -0700 > > gata > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > You're invited to: > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > Hosted by: > > RocketDog Rescue > > > > > > To view the full invitation, click here! > > > <http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY & li=iq> > > > > > > > > > > We have had difficulty with the first > > invitation that was sent out, > > if you have already received one, please try to > > register again..Thank you! I > > hope to see you all at our first annual " Dolores > > BARK! " > > > > > > This Evite invitation is covered by Evite's privacy > > policy, updated > > 01/09/01. > > > <http://www.www.evite.com/help/lookupPageByName/noheaders?commd=doPop & popt=P > > olicies & name=Policies & nosearch=OK> > > > > > > > > > > HAVING TROUBLE? > > > > If the " To view the full invitation, click here! " > > link above didn't take you > > to your Invite, try double-clicking the link below > > (or copy and paste it > > into your web browser's location bar and hit > > 'Enter'): > > http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY > > > > To remove yourself from this guest list please click > > on the link above. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 19, 2002 Report Share Posted August 19, 2002 You may be correct in the abstract that the best thing the human race could do might be to not raise animals, but the animals people rescue are already here and will suffer without our help. Bruce > > florkle [florkle] > Monday, August 19, 2002 9:12 AM > Janice Rothstein; SFBAVEG > Re: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " > > > > Last time I checked, dogs and cats weren't vegetarians > or vegans. > > How much of the animals raised for slaughter go to > feed fido and fluffy? > > And how much are animals simply surrogates for the > empty emotional lives that modern capitalism gives us? > > If you want to be good to animals, don't own one. > > --- Janice Rothstein <gata wrote: > > Hello all, > > > > My friend Pali Boucher, who awhile back launched her > > own 501©3 > > organization, > > RocketDog Rescue, needs to raise funds for food, > > surgeries, etc. Please > > check out the invitation below and consider > > attending, and maybe > > volunteering! > > > > Janice Rothstein > > > > ---------- > > " RocketDog Rescue " <palisdoghouse > > Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:53:13 -0700 > > gata > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > You're invited to: > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > Hosted by: > > RocketDog Rescue > > > > > > To view the full invitation, click here! > > > <http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY & li=iq> > > > > > > > > > > We have had difficulty with the first > > invitation that was sent out, > > if you have already received one, please try to > > register again..Thank you! I > > hope to see you all at our first annual " Dolores > > BARK! " > > > > > > This Evite invitation is covered by Evite's privacy > > policy, updated > > 01/09/01. > > > <http://www.www.evite.com/help/lookupPageByName/noheaders?commd=doPop & popt=P > > olicies & name=Policies & nosearch=OK> > > > > > > > > > > HAVING TROUBLE? > > > > If the " To view the full invitation, click here! " > > link above didn't take you > > to your Invite, try double-clicking the link below > > (or copy and paste it > > into your web browser's location bar and hit > > 'Enter'): > > http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY > > > > To remove yourself from this guest list please click > > on the link above. > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > removed] > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 You are simply displacing the " help " of these animals against the animals and habitats that are killed in their being helped (assuming you are subjecting your dog to an exclusively veggie diet perhaps, and your cat is still a meat eater). The real solution is to promote animal birth control-spaying and neutering. By adopting you are simply promoting the animal-destroying practice of owning animals. I know there are people on this list who have heard of wilderness habitat destruction, and know about the loss of trees and vegetation, as well as the subjugation of peoples who are forced into growing cash-export crops instead of stables. Taking a short sighted solution doesn't " help " the animals, or perhaps it helps them close at hand when the real violence is far away and less visible. But isn't this exactly the attitude of meat eaters who can avoid seeing the deaths their diets do? As for the emotional emptiness of capitalism, well the US is the worlds largest consumer of drugs. Do emotionally healthy and happy people consume drugs? Dog, and to a lesser extent cat, ownership also is an extension of status in this crowded city of San Francisco. Walking a dog is an expression of what Thorstein Veblen called " conspicuous consumption " . I am surprised that in arguing against " helping animals " here there is so little agreement. Apparently the arguments for vegetarianism don't apply to unneeded trophy animals? Or is everyone a " vanity " vegetarian simply to avoid being fat? -F --- Bruce Cannon <brucecannon wrote: > You may be correct in the abstract that the best > thing the human race could do might be to not raise > animals, but the animals people rescue are already > here and will suffer without our help. > > Bruce > > > > > florkle [florkle] > > Monday, August 19, 2002 9:12 AM > > Janice Rothstein; SFBAVEG > > Re: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > Last time I checked, dogs and cats weren't > vegetarians > > or vegans. > > > > How much of the animals raised for slaughter go to > > feed fido and fluffy? > > > > And how much are animals simply surrogates for the > > empty emotional lives that modern capitalism gives > us? > > > > If you want to be good to animals, don't own one. > > > > --- Janice Rothstein <gata wrote: > > > Hello all, > > > > > > My friend Pali Boucher, who awhile back launched > her > > > own 501©3 > > > organization, > > > RocketDog Rescue, needs to raise funds for food, > > > surgeries, etc. Please > > > check out the invitation below and consider > > > attending, and maybe > > > volunteering! > > > > > > Janice Rothstein > > > > > > ---------- > > > " RocketDog Rescue " > <palisdoghouse > > > Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:53:13 -0700 > > > gata > > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're invited to: > > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > Hosted by: > > > RocketDog Rescue > > > > > > > > > To view the full invitation, click here! > > > > > > <http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY & li=iq> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have had difficulty with the first > > > invitation that was sent out, > > > if you have already received one, please try to > > > register again..Thank you! I > > > hope to see you all at our first annual " Dolores > > > BARK! " > > > > > > > > > This Evite invitation is covered by Evite's > privacy > > > policy, updated > > > 01/09/01. > > > > > > <http://www.www.evite.com/help/lookupPageByName/noheaders?commd=doPop & popt=P > > > olicies & name=Policies & nosearch=OK> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HAVING TROUBLE? > > > > > > If the " To view the full invitation, click > here! " > > > link above didn't take you > > > to your Invite, try double-clicking the link > below > > > (or copy and paste it > > > into your web browser's location bar and hit > > > 'Enter'): > > > http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY > > > > > > To remove yourself from this guest list please > click > > > on the link above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 florkle: Some of the points you make are very good ones and worth discussing in the abstract. But they are so bound up as rationalizations for your preconceptions that it undermines their usefulness. You simplistically dismiss out of hand the possibility of complex and varied motivations in others, and then accuse them of being simplistic. You aren't going to get an intelligent discussion that way. But that doesn't appear to be what you want? If I'm wrong about that, ok, let's discuss these complicated problems as methodically and objectively as we can. Because someone accepts that abandoned animals aren't responsible for their own existence and circumstances, and thinks people should take responsibility for the mess they create, doesn't in itself indicate that they don't also think about the ramifications of feeding animals to animals, or the host of other tangential, but equally intractable, issues you toss in. On what basis do you make all these assumptions about the superior clarity of your own point of view? I think you should declaim less and ask questions more (real questions, not pointless barbs hiding behind question-marks); you might be surprised to learn something from people on this list. Having said that, while I wanted to publicly challenge some of the uncharitable remarks you've made, I have a feeling we're beginning to harsh people's mellow here. So unless others are brave enough to wade in and make this a forum instead of a flame, I suggest we take this discussion off-list. This easy-going social group just doesn't feel like the right place for these diatribes. Bruce > > florkle [florkle] > Monday, August 19, 2002 7:56 PM > brucecannon; > RE: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " > > > > You are simply displacing the " help " of these animals > against the animals and habitats that are killed in > their being helped (assuming you are subjecting your > dog to an exclusively veggie diet perhaps, and your > cat is still a meat eater). > > The real solution is to promote animal birth > control-spaying and neutering. By adopting you are > simply promoting the animal-destroying practice of > owning animals. > > I know there are people on this list who have heard of > wilderness habitat destruction, and know about the > loss of trees and vegetation, as well as the > subjugation of peoples who are forced into growing > cash-export crops instead of stables. > > Taking a short sighted solution doesn't " help " the > animals, or perhaps it helps them close at hand when > the real violence is far away and less visible. But > isn't this exactly the attitude of meat eaters who can > avoid seeing the deaths their diets do? > > As for the emotional emptiness of capitalism, well the > US is the worlds largest consumer of drugs. Do > emotionally healthy and happy people consume drugs? > > Dog, and to a lesser extent cat, ownership also is an > extension of status in this crowded city of San > Francisco. Walking a dog is an expression of what > Thorstein Veblen called " conspicuous consumption " . > > I am surprised that in arguing against " helping > animals " here there is so little agreement. Apparently > the arguments for vegetarianism don't apply to > unneeded trophy animals? Or is everyone a " vanity " > vegetarian simply to avoid being fat? > > -F > > --- Bruce Cannon <brucecannon wrote: > > You may be correct in the abstract that the best > > thing the human race could do might be to not raise > > animals, but the animals people rescue are already > > here and will suffer without our help. > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > florkle [florkle] > > > Monday, August 19, 2002 9:12 AM > > > Janice Rothstein; SFBAVEG > > > Re: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > Last time I checked, dogs and cats weren't > > vegetarians > > > or vegans. > > > > > > How much of the animals raised for slaughter go to > > > feed fido and fluffy? > > > > > > And how much are animals simply surrogates for the > > > empty emotional lives that modern capitalism gives > > us? > > > > > > If you want to be good to animals, don't own one. > > > > > > --- Janice Rothstein <gata wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > My friend Pali Boucher, who awhile back launched > > her > > > > own 501©3 > > > > organization, > > > > RocketDog Rescue, needs to raise funds for food, > > > > surgeries, etc. Please > > > > check out the invitation below and consider > > > > attending, and maybe > > > > volunteering! > > > > > > > > Janice Rothstein > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > " RocketDog Rescue " > > <palisdoghouse > > > > Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:53:13 -0700 > > > > gata > > > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're invited to: > > > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > Hosted by: > > > > RocketDog Rescue > > > > > > > > > > > > To view the full invitation, click here! > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY & li=iq> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have had difficulty with the first > > > > invitation that was sent out, > > > > if you have already received one, please try to > > > > register again..Thank you! I > > > > hope to see you all at our first annual " Dolores > > > > BARK! " > > > > > > > > > > > > This Evite invitation is covered by Evite's > > privacy > > > > policy, updated > > > > 01/09/01. > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.www.evite.com/help/lookupPageByName/noheaders?commd=doPop & popt=P > > > > olicies & name=Policies & nosearch=OK> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HAVING TROUBLE? > > > > > > > > If the " To view the full invitation, click > > here! " > > > > link above didn't take you > > > > to your Invite, try double-clicking the link > > below > > > > (or copy and paste it > > > > into your web browser's location bar and hit > > > > 'Enter'): > > > > http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY > > > > > > > > To remove yourself from this guest list please > > click > > > > on the link above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 --- Bruce Cannon <brucecannon wrote: > florkle: > > Some of the points you make are very good ones and > worth discussing in the abstract. But they are > so bound up as rationalizations for your > preconceptions that it undermines their usefulness. If you feel they are worthwhile, what do my preconceptions have to do with it? If a person you hate says " Fire! " (truthfully) does this make the warning any less useful? > You > simplistically dismiss out of hand the possibility > of complex and varied motivations in others, and > then accuse them of being simplistic. You aren't > going to get an intelligent discussion that way. If the complex and varied motivations lead to hypocritical actions, and are not readily apparent to me, then assuming simple motivations (i.e. vanity) is consistent with Occam. > But that doesn't appear to be what you want? If I'm > wrong about that, ok, let's discuss these > complicated problems as methodically and objectively > as we can. It doesn't seem all that difficult a proposition really. a) you are a vegetarian, you abstain from meat eating on some (unknown) grounds. b) you practice, or defend the practice, of owning animals who eat meat, and whose meat consumption is as bad, or worse, that that which in a) you avoid c)all the reasons that would presumably motivate a) should apply to b), except ones that are merely selfish (i.e. vanity, health). If any reasons for a) are socially motivated - avoiding cruelty to animals and people and earth, then... > > Because someone accepts that abandoned animals > aren't responsible for their own existence and > circumstances, and thinks people should take > responsibility for the mess they create, doesn't in > itself indicate that they don't also think about the > ramifications of feeding animals to animals, or > the host of other tangential, but equally > intractable, issues you toss in. On what basis do > you > make all these assumptions about the superior > clarity of your own point of view? I think you Actions speak louder than words. Owning animals doesn't send a message that owning animals is itself a problem. Animal ownership is a display of the economic capacity to own animals. Many people don't live in a situation where they can own an animal. It is a simple assertion then that animal ownership has elements of class status assertion. > should > declaim less and ask questions more (real questions, > not pointless barbs hiding behind > question-marks); you might be surprised to learn > something from people on this list. I am waiting to have any one of my simple positions disputed, either with simple statements, statements of fact or opinion or so on. So far you are merely becoming unfriendly. > > Having said that, while I wanted to publicly > challenge some of the uncharitable remarks you've > made, > I have a feeling we're beginning to harsh people's > mellow here. So unless others are brave enough > to wade in and make this a forum instead of a flame, > I suggest we take this discussion off-list. > This easy-going social group just doesn't feel like > the right place for these diatribes. So people want the right to act without thought, without challenge? Isn't that what meat eaters want? If you resent any questioning of your opinions, what moral basis do you have to question anyone elses? I am guessing that most if not all of the people on this list were raised as meat eaters, and at some time came to question their meat-eating lifestyle. Some process of tranformation occured, a period of questioning, and definitely some struggle, being a vegetarian in a meat-oriented society. Now that one change has occured, is there no more room for questions? And as for emotional health and capitalism and drug consumption, the reference to " harshing peoples mellow " perhaps points to some casual " soft " drug use? I suppose if people don't like to question their own lifestyles, nothing is to be done. Don't be surprised though when *no one listens to your pleas for vegetarianism* since you are acting the same way. -F. > > Bruce > > > > > florkle [florkle] > > Monday, August 19, 2002 7:56 PM > > brucecannon; > > RE: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > You are simply displacing the " help " of these > animals > > against the animals and habitats that are killed > in > > their being helped (assuming you are subjecting > your > > dog to an exclusively veggie diet perhaps, and > your > > cat is still a meat eater). > > > > The real solution is to promote animal birth > > control-spaying and neutering. By adopting you are > > simply promoting the animal-destroying practice of > > owning animals. > > > > I know there are people on this list who have > heard of > > wilderness habitat destruction, and know about the > > loss of trees and vegetation, as well as the > > subjugation of peoples who are forced into growing > > cash-export crops instead of stables. > > > > Taking a short sighted solution doesn't " help " the > > animals, or perhaps it helps them close at hand > when > > the real violence is far away and less visible. > But > > isn't this exactly the attitude of meat eaters who > can > > avoid seeing the deaths their diets do? > > > > As for the emotional emptiness of capitalism, well > the > > US is the worlds largest consumer of drugs. Do > > emotionally healthy and happy people consume > drugs? > > > > Dog, and to a lesser extent cat, ownership also is > an > > extension of status in this crowded city of San > > Francisco. Walking a dog is an expression of what > > Thorstein Veblen called " conspicuous consumption " . > > > > I am surprised that in arguing against " helping > > animals " here there is so little agreement. > Apparently > > the arguments for vegetarianism don't apply to > > unneeded trophy animals? Or is everyone a " vanity " > > vegetarian simply to avoid being fat? > > > > -F > > > > --- Bruce Cannon <brucecannon wrote: > > > You may be correct in the abstract that the best > > > thing the human race could do might be to not > raise > > > animals, but the animals people rescue are > already > > > here and will suffer without our help. > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > florkle [florkle] > > > > Monday, August 19, 2002 9:12 AM > > > > Janice Rothstein; SFBAVEG > > > > Re: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last time I checked, dogs and cats weren't > > > vegetarians > > > > or vegans. > > > > > > > > How much of the animals raised for slaughter > go to > > > > feed fido and fluffy? > > > > > > > > And how much are animals simply surrogates for > the > > > > empty emotional lives that modern capitalism > gives > > > us? > > > > > > > > If you want to be good to animals, don't own > one. > > > > > > > > --- Janice Rothstein <gata wrote: > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > > My friend Pali Boucher, who awhile back > launched > > > her > > > > > own 501©3 > > > > > organization, > > > > > RocketDog Rescue, needs to raise funds for > food, > > > > > surgeries, etc. Please > > > > > check out the invitation below and consider > > > > > attending, and maybe > > > > > volunteering! > > > > > > > > > > Janice Rothstein > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > " RocketDog Rescue " > > > <palisdoghouse > > > > > Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:53:13 -0700 > > > > > gata > > > > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're invited to: > > > > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > Hosted by: > > > > > RocketDog Rescue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To view the full invitation, click here! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY & li=iq> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have had difficulty with the > first > > > > > invitation that was sent out, > > > > > if you have already received one, please try > to > > > > > register again..Thank you! I > > > > > hope to see you all at our first annual > " Dolores > > > > > BARK! " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Evite invitation is covered by Evite's > > > privacy > > > > > policy, updated > > > > > 01/09/01. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.www.evite.com/help/lookupPageByName/noheaders?commd=doPop & popt=P > > > > > olicies & name=Policies & nosearch=OK> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HAVING TROUBLE? > > > > > > > > > > If the " To view the full invitation, click > > > here! " > > > > > link above didn't take you > > > > > to your Invite, try double-clicking the link > > > below > > > > > (or copy and paste it > > > > > into your web browser's location bar and hit > > > > > 'Enter'): > > > > > > http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY > > > > > > > > > > To remove yourself from this guest list > please > > > click > > > > > on the link above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 Florkle said: " The real solution is to promote animal birth control-spaying and neutering. By adopting you are simply promoting the animal-destroying practice of owning animals. " Do you really think that people on this list don't know about preventive measures? I bet that most people who adopt animals are responsible people who have their animals neutered. Most responsible rescue and adoption agencys require neutering before the animals are even adopted out! Florkle also said: " As for the emotional emptiness of capitalism, well the US is the worlds largest consumer of drugs. Do emotionally healthy and happy people consume drugs? " I like how you take 2 statements & connect them together. Example: I am a vegy. I don't like broccoli. Therefore, that means vegies don't like broccoli. C'mon. You must be new to the list & not familiar with our community. Like Bruce said, we are socialable. Sometimes its best to lay low, read the messages, before you leap right in with your own presumptions, assumption, & atitude. HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs http://www.hotjobs.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 florkle: i agree largely with bruce, but i don't think your logic should be dismissed because your method is harshing our collective mellow...i like to gather opinions from this list like seeds, plant some of them for germination in my own mind or in conversations with others. some stick and some blow away. your assertions about the negative ramifications of rescuing animals stick (how many distant cows must die to keep our local cats fat?). i just wish you wouldn't presume that this conundrum hasn't caused some conflict for the rest of us...you're presenting a ridiculously large-scale, long-term problem with no feasible short-term solution (which doesn't mean it shouldn't be presented). but what would you do with the millions of unwanted animals alive today and with their pending offspring tomorrow? what harshes my mellow is your decision to draw the line of moral demarcation such that it qualifies your behavior and condemns that of many of the rest of us. your presence on the list indicates that you derive some value from what the rest of us have offered to this point--your tone and dismissal of your peers suggest otherwise. i LIKE postings that rattle our perspectives. those are the ones that make me stretch a little. it's your 'Army of One' tone that puts me off. it's safe to assume that we all have a common interest: some variation on gaining broader acceptance of a vegetarian lifestyle. tough ideas can be presented in a way that expands our common interest without sending us all to separate corners. jason Bruce Cannon [brucecannon] Monday, August 19, 2002 9:58 PM RE: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " florkle: Some of the points you make are very good ones and worth discussing in the abstract. But they are so bound up as rationalizations for your preconceptions that it undermines their usefulness. You simplistically dismiss out of hand the possibility of complex and varied motivations in others, and then accuse them of being simplistic. You aren't going to get an intelligent discussion that way. But that doesn't appear to be what you want? If I'm wrong about that, ok, let's discuss these complicated problems as methodically and objectively as we can. Because someone accepts that abandoned animals aren't responsible for their own existence and circumstances, and thinks people should take responsibility for the mess they create, doesn't in itself indicate that they don't also think about the ramifications of feeding animals to animals, or the host of other tangential, but equally intractable, issues you toss in. On what basis do you make all these assumptions about the superior clarity of your own point of view? I think you should declaim less and ask questions more (real questions, not pointless barbs hiding behind question-marks); you might be surprised to learn something from people on this list. Having said that, while I wanted to publicly challenge some of the uncharitable remarks you've made, I have a feeling we're beginning to harsh people's mellow here. So unless others are brave enough to wade in and make this a forum instead of a flame, I suggest we take this discussion off-list. This easy-going social group just doesn't feel like the right place for these diatribes. Bruce > > florkle [florkle] > Monday, August 19, 2002 7:56 PM > brucecannon; > RE: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " > > > > You are simply displacing the " help " of these animals > against the animals and habitats that are killed in > their being helped (assuming you are subjecting your > dog to an exclusively veggie diet perhaps, and your > cat is still a meat eater). > > The real solution is to promote animal birth > control-spaying and neutering. By adopting you are > simply promoting the animal-destroying practice of > owning animals. > > I know there are people on this list who have heard of wilderness > habitat destruction, and know about the loss of trees and vegetation, > as well as the subjugation of peoples who are forced into growing > cash-export crops instead of stables. > > Taking a short sighted solution doesn't " help " the > animals, or perhaps it helps them close at hand when > the real violence is far away and less visible. But > isn't this exactly the attitude of meat eaters who can > avoid seeing the deaths their diets do? > > As for the emotional emptiness of capitalism, well the > US is the worlds largest consumer of drugs. Do > emotionally healthy and happy people consume drugs? > > Dog, and to a lesser extent cat, ownership also is an extension of > status in this crowded city of San Francisco. Walking a dog is an > expression of what Thorstein Veblen called " conspicuous consumption " . > > I am surprised that in arguing against " helping > animals " here there is so little agreement. Apparently > the arguments for vegetarianism don't apply to > unneeded trophy animals? Or is everyone a " vanity " > vegetarian simply to avoid being fat? > > -F > > --- Bruce Cannon <brucecannon wrote: > > You may be correct in the abstract that the best > > thing the human race could do might be to not raise animals, but the > > animals people rescue are already here and will suffer without our > > help. > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > florkle [florkle] > > > Monday, August 19, 2002 9:12 AM > > > Janice Rothstein; SFBAVEG > > > Re: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > Last time I checked, dogs and cats weren't > > vegetarians > > > or vegans. > > > > > > How much of the animals raised for slaughter go to > > > feed fido and fluffy? > > > > > > And how much are animals simply surrogates for the > > > empty emotional lives that modern capitalism gives > > us? > > > > > > If you want to be good to animals, don't own one. > > > > > > --- Janice Rothstein <gata wrote: > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > My friend Pali Boucher, who awhile back launched > > her > > > > own 501©3 > > > > organization, > > > > RocketDog Rescue, needs to raise funds for food, surgeries, etc. > > > > Please check out the invitation below and consider > > > > attending, and maybe > > > > volunteering! > > > > > > > > Janice Rothstein > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > " RocketDog Rescue " > > <palisdoghouse > > > > Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:53:13 -0700 > > > > gata > > > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're invited to: > > > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > Hosted by: > > > > RocketDog Rescue > > > > > > > > > > > > To view the full invitation, click here! > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY & li=iq> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have had difficulty with the first invitation that > > > > was sent out, if you have already received one, please try to > > > > register again..Thank you! I > > > > hope to see you all at our first annual " Dolores > > > > BARK! " > > > > > > > > > > > > This Evite invitation is covered by Evite's > > privacy > > > > policy, updated > > > > 01/09/01. > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.www.evite.com/help/lookupPageByName/noheaders?commd=doPop & > popt=P > > > > olicies & name=Policies & nosearch=OK> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HAVING TROUBLE? > > > > > > > > If the " To view the full invitation, click > > here! " > > > > link above didn't take you > > > > to your Invite, try double-clicking the link > > below > > > > (or copy and paste it > > > > into your web browser's location bar and hit > > > > 'Enter'): http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY > > > > > > > > To remove yourself from this guest list please > > click > > > > on the link above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 20, 2002 Report Share Posted August 20, 2002 florkle: You really are completely missing my point. I was trying to help you, believe it or not. You need to understand that it doesn't really matter whether you make good points or not if you make them in such a way as to suggest that you are trying only to offend, not communicate. Your conclusion that people aren't addressing your points because they have not done their moral and political homework is self-serving and deluded. As far as my being unfriendly because I called your statement " Or is everyone a " vanity " vegetarian simply to avoid being fat? " a pointless barb posing as a question, all I can say is " I suppose if people don't like to question their own lifestyles, nothing is to be done. Don't be surprised when no one listens... " Bruce > > florkle [florkle] > Monday, August 19, 2002 10:41 PM > brucecannon; > RE: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " > > > --- Bruce Cannon <brucecannon wrote: > > florkle: > > > > Some of the points you make are very good ones and > > worth discussing in the abstract. But they are > > so bound up as rationalizations for your > > preconceptions that it undermines their usefulness. > > If you feel they are worthwhile, what do my > preconceptions have to do with it? If a person you > hate says " Fire! " (truthfully) does this make the > warning any less useful? > > > You > > simplistically dismiss out of hand the possibility > > of complex and varied motivations in others, and > > then accuse them of being simplistic. You aren't > > going to get an intelligent discussion that way. > > If the complex and varied motivations lead to > hypocritical actions, and are not readily apparent to > me, then assuming simple motivations (i.e. vanity) is > consistent with Occam. > > > > But that doesn't appear to be what you want? If I'm > > wrong about that, ok, let's discuss these > > complicated problems as methodically and objectively > > as we can. > > It doesn't seem all that difficult a proposition > really. > > a) you are a vegetarian, you abstain from meat eating > on some (unknown) grounds. > > b) you practice, or defend the practice, of owning > animals who eat meat, and whose meat consumption is as > bad, or worse, that that which in a) you avoid > > c)all the reasons that would presumably motivate a) > should apply to b), except ones that are merely > selfish (i.e. vanity, health). > > If any reasons for a) are socially motivated - > avoiding cruelty to animals and people and earth, > then... > > > > > > Because someone accepts that abandoned animals > > aren't responsible for their own existence and > > circumstances, and thinks people should take > > responsibility for the mess they create, doesn't in > > itself indicate that they don't also think about the > > ramifications of feeding animals to animals, or > > the host of other tangential, but equally > > intractable, issues you toss in. On what basis do > > you > > make all these assumptions about the superior > > clarity of your own point of view? I think you > > Actions speak louder than words. Owning animals > doesn't send a message that owning animals is itself a > problem. > > Animal ownership is a display of the economic capacity > to own animals. Many people don't live in a situation > where they can own an animal. It is a simple assertion > then that animal ownership has elements of class > status assertion. > > > should > > declaim less and ask questions more (real questions, > > not pointless barbs hiding behind > > question-marks); you might be surprised to learn > > something from people on this list. > > I am waiting to have any one of my simple positions > disputed, either with simple statements, statements of > fact or opinion or so on. So far you are merely > becoming unfriendly. > > > > > Having said that, while I wanted to publicly > > challenge some of the uncharitable remarks you've > > made, > > I have a feeling we're beginning to harsh people's > > mellow here. So unless others are brave enough > > to wade in and make this a forum instead of a flame, > > I suggest we take this discussion off-list. > > This easy-going social group just doesn't feel like > > the right place for these diatribes. > > So people want the right to act without thought, > without challenge? Isn't that what meat eaters want? > If you resent any questioning of your opinions, what > moral basis do you have to question anyone elses? > > I am guessing that most if not all of the people on > this list were raised as meat eaters, and at some time > came to question their meat-eating lifestyle. Some > process of tranformation occured, a period of > questioning, and definitely some struggle, being a > vegetarian in a meat-oriented society. Now that one > change has occured, is there no more room for > questions? > > And as for emotional health and capitalism and drug > consumption, the reference to " harshing peoples > mellow " perhaps points to some casual " soft " drug use? > > > I suppose if people don't like to question their own > lifestyles, nothing is to be done. Don't be surprised > though when *no one listens to your pleas for > vegetarianism* since you are acting the same way. > > -F. > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > florkle [florkle] > > > Monday, August 19, 2002 7:56 PM > > > brucecannon; > > > RE: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > You are simply displacing the " help " of these > > animals > > > against the animals and habitats that are killed > > in > > > their being helped (assuming you are subjecting > > your > > > dog to an exclusively veggie diet perhaps, and > > your > > > cat is still a meat eater). > > > > > > The real solution is to promote animal birth > > > control-spaying and neutering. By adopting you are > > > simply promoting the animal-destroying practice of > > > owning animals. > > > > > > I know there are people on this list who have > > heard of > > > wilderness habitat destruction, and know about the > > > loss of trees and vegetation, as well as the > > > subjugation of peoples who are forced into growing > > > cash-export crops instead of stables. > > > > > > Taking a short sighted solution doesn't " help " the > > > animals, or perhaps it helps them close at hand > > when > > > the real violence is far away and less visible. > > But > > > isn't this exactly the attitude of meat eaters who > > can > > > avoid seeing the deaths their diets do? > > > > > > As for the emotional emptiness of capitalism, well > > the > > > US is the worlds largest consumer of drugs. Do > > > emotionally healthy and happy people consume > > drugs? > > > > > > Dog, and to a lesser extent cat, ownership also is > > an > > > extension of status in this crowded city of San > > > Francisco. Walking a dog is an expression of what > > > Thorstein Veblen called " conspicuous consumption " . > > > > > > I am surprised that in arguing against " helping > > > animals " here there is so little agreement. > > Apparently > > > the arguments for vegetarianism don't apply to > > > unneeded trophy animals? Or is everyone a " vanity " > > > vegetarian simply to avoid being fat? > > > > > > -F > > > > > > --- Bruce Cannon <brucecannon wrote: > > > > You may be correct in the abstract that the best > > > > thing the human race could do might be to not > > raise > > > > animals, but the animals people rescue are > > already > > > > here and will suffer without our help. > > > > > > > > Bruce > > > > > > > > > > > > > > florkle [florkle] > > > > > Monday, August 19, 2002 9:12 AM > > > > > Janice Rothstein; SFBAVEG > > > > > Re: [sFBAVeg] FW: " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Last time I checked, dogs and cats weren't > > > > vegetarians > > > > > or vegans. > > > > > > > > > > How much of the animals raised for slaughter > > go to > > > > > feed fido and fluffy? > > > > > > > > > > And how much are animals simply surrogates for > > the > > > > > empty emotional lives that modern capitalism > > gives > > > > us? > > > > > > > > > > If you want to be good to animals, don't own > > one. > > > > > > > > > > --- Janice Rothstein <gata wrote: > > > > > > Hello all, > > > > > > > > > > > > My friend Pali Boucher, who awhile back > > launched > > > > her > > > > > > own 501©3 > > > > > > organization, > > > > > > RocketDog Rescue, needs to raise funds for > > food, > > > > > > surgeries, etc. Please > > > > > > check out the invitation below and consider > > > > > > attending, and maybe > > > > > > volunteering! > > > > > > > > > > > > Janice Rothstein > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > > " RocketDog Rescue " > > > > <palisdoghouse > > > > > > Sun, 18 Aug 2002 07:53:13 -0700 > > > > > > gata > > > > > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You're invited to: > > > > > > " Dolores Bark! " > > > > > > > > > > > > Hosted by: > > > > > > RocketDog Rescue > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To view the full invitation, click here! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY & li=iq> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > We have had difficulty with the > > first > > > > > > invitation that was sent out, > > > > > > if you have already received one, please try > > to > > > > > > register again..Thank you! I > > > > > > hope to see you all at our first annual > > " Dolores > > > > > > BARK! " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > This Evite invitation is covered by Evite's > > > > privacy > > > > > > policy, updated > > > > > > 01/09/01. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <http://www.www.evite.com/help/lookupPageByName/noheaders?commd=doPop & popt=P > > > > > > olicies & name=Policies & nosearch=OK> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > HAVING TROUBLE? > > > > > > > > > > > > If the " To view the full invitation, click > > > > here! " > > > > > > link above didn't take you > > > > > > to your Invite, try double-clicking the link > > > > below > > > > > > (or copy and paste it > > > > > > into your web browser's location bar and hit > > > > > > 'Enter'): > > > > > > > > http://www.evite.com/r?iid=BTYOSWSYJHHTEOHMKARY > > > > > > > > > > > > To remove yourself from this guest list > > please > > > > click > > > > > > on the link above. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been > > > > > > removed] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 21, 2002 Report Share Posted August 21, 2002 Sorry to anyone I have offended. I didn't mean to be, or appear to be, mean or abusive. I am sure I have convinced no one, and perhaps I didn't really have anything to convince anyway. I will stop posting on your list. Peace. --- Soy Vegan <soyvegan wrote: > Florkle said: > " The real solution is to promote animal birth > control-spaying and neutering. By adopting you are > simply promoting the animal-destroying practice of > owning animals. " > > Do you really think that people on this list don't > know about preventive measures? I bet that most > people who adopt animals are responsible people who > have their animals neutered. Most responsible > rescue > and adoption agencys require neutering before the > animals are even adopted out! > > Florkle also said: > " As for the emotional emptiness of capitalism, well > the US is the worlds largest consumer of drugs. Do > emotionally healthy and happy people consume drugs? > " > > I like how you take 2 statements & connect them > together. Example: I am a vegy. I don't like > broccoli. Therefore, that means vegies don't like > broccoli. > > C'mon. You must be new to the list & not familiar > with our community. Like Bruce said, we are > socialable. Sometimes its best to lay low, read the > messages, before you leap right in with your own > presumptions, assumption, & atitude. > > > > HotJobs - Search Thousands of New Jobs > http://www.hotjobs.com > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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