why didn't Paul Shapiro convince Michael Krasny to go veg?

[Guest guest]

A hard question, but one I think we (activists) must address. Those of us

who heard Paul on Forum the other day probably thought he did a great job

and was very convincing. But when host Krasny read a listener's question

asking whether he'd go veg after the show, he didn't even pause to consider

it. No, he said, he's a carnivore and wasn't planning to change any time

soon. I hear this all too often.

 

So where are we failing? Why can't we convince many people to at least

consider vegetarianism? We can't claim they're all just ignorant, that it's

just a matter of educating people.

 

Here is some speculation. I hope others will have a few cents to contribute

to this question.

 

1. Going veg is hard. even in the Bay Area, it requires a significant

sacrifice. Most items in the grocery store contain animal products--at least

dairy and egg residues. Most restaurants offer few, if any vegan items.

Hardly any offer veggie meat-like foods.

I think if vegan alternatives were ubiquitous, more people would be

inclined to try veg*anism.

2. Our society (almost every society/culture in the world) holds animals in

such low esteem that people can openly claim to have no concern for their

suffering without inviting scorn.

Imagine if Company X were exposed as exploiting African slaves in their

plant; and after learning this, a talk show host said he'd continue

patronizing Company X. I think he'd be admonished or fired. And that's

assuming that the slaves weren't actually tortured and killed by the

company. But he can get away with saying he'll continue to (pay someone to)

kill animals to eat them.

I think if we could all display scorn for people who openly show such

disregard for animals, our culture might gradually change. But this is hard,

because (for most of us) these are our friends and colleagues.

 

So what can we do to persuade people to go veg? Not just a few here and

there, but enough people to actually reverse the trend of increasing

billions of animals killed each year?

 

If my first idea has any merit, one thing we can do is start veg

businesses--groceries and restaurants, get other such businesses to provide

more and more veg options, and promote veg food companies like Yves, Imagine

Foods, and White Wave.

I hope others on this list will have more ideas.

 

-Diana

 

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[Guest guest]

sfBAVeg , " diana marmorstein " <dianabananam@h...> wrote:

> So where are we failing? Why can't we convince

> many people to at least

> consider vegetarianism?

> We can't claim they're all just ignorant, that it's

> just a matter of educating people.

 

I think that what it pretty much comes down to is that no one really wants to

think of themselves as -wrong-. Especially deeply morally or ethically wrong.

Most of us can admit to making relatively small errors or doing this or that

which we know we shouldn't, but it takes a lot for a person to question the

morality of something culturally engraved as deep as eating meat is. That was

probably the most difficult part for me 3 years ago when I became vegetarian (I

am now vegan). I didn't want to think that something which was so easily and

widely accepted, something that I and my family did without much of a thought -

could be so tremendously wrong and even cruel. People hate to look at their own

hypocrisy (I'm no exception) and will come up with excuses for their behavior

that they will cling to, even when they are shown facts that directly contradict

those excuses. People have grown up thinking it's ok to eat meat. Seeing the

hunk of flesh on their plate without any thought to the fact that it once was a

sentient creature. " It can't be evil... it's how we've always done it... it's

natural. " However, people will readily question other culture's morals and

behaviors, which I think can be useful in helping someone have an understanding

of their own culture and personal behavior...

 

I heard some people once talking about some Asian society which would raise dogs

and cats at restaurants, keeping them in small, confined cages, let their

customers choose which they wanted, then kill the animal and cook it for their

meal. The conversation evolved to the immorality of eating monkeys brains and

other such " weird and gross " things. These people, non-veg*s, were going on and

on about how terrible that was and how someone really ought to do something to

stop it. I entered the conversation, agreeing... but then said to them " what

about keeping pigs in unnatural, torturous conditions, then slaughtering them

without any concern for the suffering they endure, let alone their life... and

what about what we do to veal? You know how veal is 'made' right? " They did.

But the best reply they could come up with was " because those animals are

different. " When I asked why, I basically got the answer that these animals

don't feel. Don't have emotions the way dogs and cats and monkeys do. Of

course this isn't true... physiologically, we know what pain is. We know pretty

much how the nervous system works. These animals are no different than us in

that sense. The people I was talking to KNEW that their argument was BS, but

they stuck to it. They wouldn't question their own morals the way they so

easily could others'. I didn't change any one's mind about eating meat that

day, but I do think I gave them something to think about. Whether or not they

actually thought about it, or found it too difficult to question themselves, I

don't know.

 

It was (and still is every time I talk to people about it) frustrating that they

would not examine their own hypocrisy, even though it was plainly laid out in

front of them. But it also reminded me of my own: years ago, I probably would

have said the same things they did.

 

And even if people do accept eating meat as " wrong " , they also have to be

willing to set aside what they want for what they know is right. Which is yet

another very difficult (and seemingly impossible) step for some people.

 

I am NOT making excuses for people like that. There is NO EXCUSE for letting

animals suffer and die to satisfy our tastes, despite how difficult it is to

" look at ourselves. " I even find it difficult to have any kind of friendship

with those who still won't.

 

It takes empathy and self reflection to change your lifestyle in such ways. I

often find it very discouraging that so many people seem to be so lacking in

those things.

 

 

Veovis

[Guest guest]

(If a blank reply went through please excuse that.)

 

I think one thing we must understand is people have a

distrust and aversion for zealots, fanatics,

fundamentalists, etc. That's what we look like when

we talk about conversion, the only moral way, etc.

 

From my experience, having been on both sides of the

argument at one point or another, it's better to

educate, support, and respect than to convert.

Provide positive information, not just the gruesome

facts -- soy protein is good for heart health, legumes

are excellent sources of protein, vitamins, minerals

and can supplant a meat serving quite well, etc.

Provide words of encouragement for even small changes

like a vegetarian day once a week, less meat,

substituting dairy milk for soy milk, etc.

 

Provide a positive example that someone might want to

emulate but give them the chance to make their own

decisions. I'm sure each of us came to veg*nism

through our own decision to do so. So will they in

their own time.

 

Cheers,

Matthew

 

=====

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http://www.deanforamerica.com

___________________

 

 

 

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[Guest guest]

I listened to that broadcast too with great interest to find out how

the " main-streem " thinking is aligned. Though Paul Shapiro did a great

job of bringing out the " suffering of farmed animals " , he was cornered

to take-up the issue of " birds (chicken etc.) " by the other two

persons on air.

 

My thoughts as a life-long vegetarian who doesn't believe to change

the world to " veg*ans " , but plead to every person " to think with

respect about the life, let it be an animal or a plant " that comes on

to the dining plate. This plea is relegiously neutral and if all of us

think in that direction, the " mass consumption " of one or other sort

of " illfated, humiliated, and tortured life " would be far less than

what it is now.

 

Now to the deep rooted reasons why many take comfort in

" disrespecting " animal life (leave alone plants aside):

 

1) In many religions there is a " strong " demarcation between the

" humans " and the rest. It is their belief that the " rest " is created

for " us " and that treating the " rest " as we want is not a " sin " . Thus,

though we are aware of the torture and pain exercised on the

" inferior " life, there is no " guilt " towards doing so.

 

2) In earlier days we saw where our food came from. My neighbors in

India used to cut the head of a chicken, which then through nerve

impulses used to fly and flutter for a couple of minutes before

staying still. It was the same procedure in the rest of the world. You

had to kill (in most situations one of the family members) your own

food if you were to be a carnivore.

 

But now, because of mass-production, people lost the connection

between the source of their food and its shape before it became a

" mere forless and shapeless object that contains everything from

antibiotics, through harmones to artificial flavors " .

 

Majority of people do not feel good to see " how a cow/lamb/etc. is

slaughtered " in different parts of the world. They admit it is " bad,

inhumane, heartless, bla bla bla and they wouldn't eat meat if they

had to kill " . However in the minds of these people, the connection

between the meat and the animal is completely broken. There are quite

a few veg*ans, who would gladly eat meat if only the animal didn't

suffer...

 

 

3) Our world is made-up of " anthropocentric " views, laws, morals and

cultures. I don't think it would be a realistic goal or even a dream

to make the humans to be veg*ans. Diversity prevails over " monoculture " .

 

4) " Education " is the one and only effective method to bring in

positive changes that are permanent. Bring out the pros and cons of

" mass animal farming " to the reach of people at one-on-one level and

let them choose. The Wise choose the right.

 

The bottom line is " disrespect to nature backfires " .

 

Best Regards

Murthy

 

sfBAVeg , " diana marmorstein "

<dianabananam@h...> wrote:

> A hard question, but one I think we (activists) must address. Those

of us

> who heard Paul on Forum the other day probably thought he did a

great job

> and was very convincing. But when host Krasny read a listener's

question

> asking whether he'd go veg after the show, he didn't even pause to

consider

> it. No, he said, he's a carnivore and wasn't planning to change any

time

> soon. I hear this all too often.

>

> So where are we failing? Why can't we convince many people to at least

> consider vegetarianism? We can't claim they're all just ignorant,

that it's

> just a matter of educating people.

>

> Here is some speculation. I hope others will have a few cents to

contribute

> to this question.

>

> 1. Going veg is hard. even in the Bay Area, it requires a significant

> sacrifice. Most items in the grocery store contain animal

products--at least

> dairy and egg residues. Most restaurants offer few, if any vegan items.

> Hardly any offer veggie meat-like foods.

> I think if vegan alternatives were ubiquitous, more people would be

> inclined to try veg*anism.

> 2. Our society (almost every society/culture in the world) holds

animals in

> such low esteem that people can openly claim to have no concern for

their

> suffering without inviting scorn.

> Imagine if Company X were exposed as exploiting African slaves in

their

> plant; and after learning this, a talk show host said he'd continue

> patronizing Company X. I think he'd be admonished or fired. And that's

> assuming that the slaves weren't actually tortured and killed by the

> company. But he can get away with saying he'll continue to (pay

someone to)

> kill animals to eat them.

> I think if we could all display scorn for people who openly show such

> disregard for animals, our culture might gradually change. But this

is hard,

> because (for most of us) these are our friends and colleagues.

>

> So what can we do to persuade people to go veg? Not just a few here and

> there, but enough people to actually reverse the trend of increasing

> billions of animals killed each year?

>

> If my first idea has any merit, one thing we can do is start veg

> businesses--groceries and restaurants, get other such businesses to

provide

> more and more veg options, and promote veg food companies like Yves,

Imagine

> Foods, and White Wave.

> I hope others on this list will have more ideas.

>

> -Diana

>

> _______________

> The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE*

> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail