Guest guest Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 I'm sorry that you disapprove of the people in this group, Wes. But, I think you misunderstand many of us. You mentioned that you turned vegan a few months ago, and that's great. But you never said why you did so. Many of us did so for reasons of compassion rather than health or environmentalism, and, perhaps, you did too. When one becomes a vegan for reasons of compassion, one is constantly aware of the millions of innocent animal victims of human disinterest, by which I mean the millions of dogs, cats, chickens and other animals left to die in " shelters " while breeders continue to create new animals. It's a vicious cycle. The people who disagree with you simply believe that the interest of compassion would best be served by saving millions of already existing animals rather than creating more who might wind up in " shelters " awaiting death someday. It's interesting to note that you wrote: " And I never said I would not rescue any chickens... " and " . . . who's to say I won't adopt others to give them a good home, " but you never said that you would adopt. Of course, you have no obligation to do so. When I was new to veganism I remember thinking that those who were opposed to breading pets were fanatics and extremists. In retrospect, I didn't understand them. And since then, to my own amazement, I've changed. Now, in my opinion, just as it's a major step forward to go vegan, it's a major step backward to breed animals, even if you mean well, (as you obviously do), when so many are currently unwanted. People who brought that idea to your attention are not fanatics, although I understand that they seem that way to you as you are extremely sensitive about your breeding plans. They are simply trying to urge you to expand your vegan consciousness to recognize that your decision to breed does have a very real impact on other living beings, irrespective of your diet and your motives. This isn't an attack on you but a plea for a broader understanding. You also wrote: " . . . you just lost a member because people thought I, who just turned vegan a few months ago, wasn't doing 'enough' for the animals by raising chickens from eggs....this is the fanatacism I was talking about. " It isn't that you are not doing " enough " for the animals by raising chickens from eggs that causes concern to some of us; it's that you are putting your own interest in the enjoyment you'll get from the experience of creating animals above the best interest many of us have in preventing the ever increasing number of unwanted animals, as yours might be someday for reasons beyond your control. For example, are you in an area zoned for farm animals? Would your neighbors object to the crowing of a rooster in the early mornings? What if you have to move to an area where chickens are unwanted or would not fit in? If you want to create new chicks then, of course, you will do so and there is nothing that anyone on this list can do about it. But please remember that there is nothing fanatical about a plea for compassion. This is a wide open and free swinging group to which controversy is nothing new. We all have a lot to learn from and give to each other. I hope you'll reconsider and stick with the group. People might disagree with you about raising chickens from eggs, but they might agree with you on other matters that you have not yet discovered. - " wncannon " <wncannon <sfBAVeg > Wednesday, July 02, 2003 9:04 AM [sfBAVeg] Last Posting... > Hi. I only began posting on Monday, and this is my last posting. I > am a vegan and love animals. My childhood was spent on a farm where > I had many wonderful experiences. Recently I decided I wanted to > raise a couple of chickens after hatching them in an incubator, like > I did as a child. This experience taught me so much about life and > the preciousness of it. I got to see an animal come into this world > from something we take for granted and scramble everyday. After my > posting, the few responses to this posting were sad. I know there > are chickens out there who need to be rescued. And I never said I > would not rescue any chickens...I will however raise a couple from > eggs. In my view, I am saving a couple of eggs from the mouths of > meat-eaters. I cannot believe how fanatical some of the people in > this group are. I will continue to be vegan, but it won't be a > social thing for me anymore. By that, I mean I will be vegan and not > associate with vegan groups such as this. It is this fanatacism that > keeps a lot of vegans away from vegan groups. I think it is a major > step forward when people decide to no longer eat meat or animals > products. You have to understand that all people are not > extremists. And if they are no longer eating meat or animal > products, don't attack other things they may do that may seem to you > to further the plight of animals. But, you always have many who step > up and tell you you are not doing enough...you should do more....or > that what you are doing is still hurting animals. I think that is > sad and it truly pushes people back to meat-eater status. So what if > I want to bring a couple of chickens in the world and give them a > good home. And who's to say I won't adopt others to give them a good > home. Relax people...you just lost a member because people thought > I, who just turned vegan a few months ago, wasn't doing " enough " for > the animals by raising chickens from eggs....this is the fanatacism I > was talking about. I dare to say to any of you who had children of > your own that you were not doing enough for the children of this > world...you should have adopted and saved a few of those millions of > children who have no home and no family. > > Thank you for your time. > > Wes > > > > > BAY AREA VEGETARIANS (BAV) is a community group for veggies to network & find > support. Free membership and lots of free events :-) See below links for more > veggie info.... > > *Bay Area Vegetarians - Event Calendar, free Membership info, Charter, FAQ and More! > > http://www.bayareaveg.org/ > > Local Animal Rights groups > http://www.freedom4animals.org/events.html > eastbayanimals/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 Wes, I certainly hope I wasn't one of those " sad " postings. While I have no clue where you would get an incubator (perhaps try the Yellow Pages?) I was simply mentioning an alternative that you might not have considered. I didn't say you " should " do anything, and I'm sorry if you took it that way. Hope you don't leave the group over something like this - I think we have a nice supportive group of people here, and we can always use a fresh perspective. Cheers, -Kim On Wed, 2 Jul 2003, wncannon wrote: > Hi. I only began posting on Monday, and this is my last posting. I > am a vegan and love animals. My childhood was spent on a farm where > I had many wonderful experiences. Recently I decided I wanted to > raise a couple of chickens after hatching them in an incubator, like > I did as a child. This experience taught me so much about life and > the preciousness of it. I got to see an animal come into this world > from something we take for granted and scramble everyday. After my > posting, the few responses to this posting were sad. I know there > are chickens out there who need to be rescued. And I never said I > would not rescue any chickens...I will however raise a couple from > eggs. In my view, I am saving a couple of eggs from the mouths of > meat-eaters. I cannot believe how fanatical some of the people in > this group are. I will continue to be vegan, but it won't be a > social thing for me anymore. By that, I mean I will be vegan and not > associate with vegan groups such as this. It is this fanatacism that > keeps a lot of vegans away from vegan groups. I think it is a major > step forward when people decide to no longer eat meat or animals > products. You have to understand that all people are not > extremists. And if they are no longer eating meat or animal > products, don't attack other things they may do that may seem to you > to further the plight of animals. But, you always have many who step > up and tell you you are not doing enough...you should do more....or > that what you are doing is still hurting animals. I think that is > sad and it truly pushes people back to meat-eater status. So what if > I want to bring a couple of chickens in the world and give them a > good home. And who's to say I won't adopt others to give them a good > home. Relax people...you just lost a member because people thought > I, who just turned vegan a few months ago, wasn't doing " enough " for > the animals by raising chickens from eggs....this is the fanatacism I > was talking about. I dare to say to any of you who had children of > your own that you were not doing enough for the children of this > world...you should have adopted and saved a few of those millions of > children who have no home and no family. > > Thank you for your time. > > Wes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 2, 2003 Report Share Posted July 2, 2003 Hi all, I was mulling over a reply to Wes when his second post came through. Anyways, Wes, thanks for your thoughtful second message. I have definitely learned a lot by being a part of this group and the veg community. Regarding Wes first post, I wanted to comment: For many, the concept of life is a major reason for being or becoming vegetarian or vegan. This could be adopting it is a dietary choice for personal health reasons or choosing it as a way to save an animal's life by not eating them. Given the fact that there are so many rescued chickens that need homes, I would have to say my preference, if I chose to share my life with chickens, would be to give existing chickens a home (rather than bringing more chickens into the world). But, that is my opinion based on my experience. Wes' experience has given him a different opinion. I have no idea what people wrote him that caused him to comment how " fanatical some of the people in this group are " ... But, as I have been with this group since its beginning, and I have had a lot of correspondence with folks on and off the list, I do know for a fact that this is a group with opinions. Some of which I agree with, and others that I do not. Folks, if you post a question or opinion, you should be open to hearing viewpoints that differ from yours. If you aren't, then why would you expect others to be open to your viewpoint? Just because a few people disagree with you, it does not necessarily make either position right or wrong, nor does it necessarily reflect the opinion of the group as a whole. However, I also want to say that if people respond to your sfBAVeg post privately and disagree with what you said, I certainly hope they did so in a mannerly fashion. It is specifically stated in our group charter: (1) Any post that attacks veg*n, animal rights or any individual / business in a slanderous, belittling or mean-spirited manner is prohibited and (2) in order to maintain decorum, posters are urged to always show respect for the views of others, even if they disagree with the views expressed. When disagreeing with views expressed on SFBAVeg posters are urged to disagree with the views expressed and not with the poster personally. Wes, if you (or anyone else) feels that you have received posts that violate our group charter, please contact me privately and be prepared to provide the original emails. Bay Area Vegetarians is a group for folks who want to find community and support with other veg or veg-friendly folks. This does not mean that we will agree on everything. Indeed, it would be very boring if we did! Also, as it's come up before, I want to say that Bay Area Vegetarians is not a " vegan group " . While the group founders, Chris and myself, are vegan, as are many of the folks who are active in the organization, this group is *not* an exclusively vegan group. Pre-vegan or vegetarian- friendly folks are welcome to the group and all BAV events. The food is " vegan " at our events because vegan food is the most inclusive type food, i.e. the lowest common denominator of food that everyone can eat, be they vegetarians, vegans, or pre-vegans. Looking forward to meeting many new and old friends at future veg events -- starting with Friday's vegan food party at Montara State Beach! Cheers, Tammy http://www.bayareaveg.org -- Perform a death-defying act... Go Vegan! http://www.generationv.org Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 Wes, I am sorry to hear that you are leaving the group. Congratulations for becoming a vegan and for demonstrating compassion. I hope you realize that there are many vegetarians and vegans who are not fanatical. Your message made me think of how I feel each time I hear that someone is complaining about Rainbow, or even Whole Foods, for a product that they sell. It makes me sad that they can't congratulate the store for selling products that are much much better than most of the stores out there, but instead have to criticize the smaller points. I say, leave the criticisms for Safeway. And as vegetarians and vegans living in cities and towns where many do not understand or even tolerate our choices, I think we should be supporting each other. > " wncannon " <wncannon >sfBAVeg >[sfBAVeg] Last Posting... >Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:04:39 -0000 > >Hi. I only began posting on Monday, and this is my last posting. I >am a vegan and love animals. My childhood was spent on a farm where >I had many wonderful experiences. Recently I decided I wanted to >raise a couple of chickens after hatching them in an incubator, like >I did as a child. This experience taught me so much about life and >the preciousness of it. I got to see an animal come into this world >from something we take for granted and scramble everyday. After my >posting, the few responses to this posting were sad. I know there >are chickens out there who need to be rescued. And I never said I >would not rescue any chickens...I will however raise a couple from >eggs. In my view, I am saving a couple of eggs from the mouths of >meat-eaters. I cannot believe how fanatical some of the people in >this group are. I will continue to be vegan, but it won't be a >social thing for me anymore. By that, I mean I will be vegan and not >associate with vegan groups such as this. It is this fanatacism that >keeps a lot of vegans away from vegan groups. I think it is a major >step forward when people decide to no longer eat meat or animals >products. You have to understand that all people are not >extremists. And if they are no longer eating meat or animal >products, don't attack other things they may do that may seem to you >to further the plight of animals. But, you always have many who step >up and tell you you are not doing enough...you should do more....or >that what you are doing is still hurting animals. I think that is >sad and it truly pushes people back to meat-eater status. So what if >I want to bring a couple of chickens in the world and give them a >good home. And who's to say I won't adopt others to give them a good >home. Relax people...you just lost a member because people thought >I, who just turned vegan a few months ago, wasn't doing " enough " for >the animals by raising chickens from eggs....this is the fanatacism I >was talking about. I dare to say to any of you who had children of >your own that you were not doing enough for the children of this >world...you should have adopted and saved a few of those millions of >children who have no home and no family. > >Thank you for your time. > >Wes > > _______________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 3, 2003 Report Share Posted July 3, 2003 Wes, My brains are a bit addled as I've been studying for my GREs and I am thinking in analogies and not writing clearly. I reread my message and realize that it was murky and might even sound as if I were criticizing you for expressing your dismay. In a nutshell: I am sorry to hear that you were not feeling supported by the group. (back to studying) Willow _______________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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