chickens

December 7, 1999

I love birds. I _really_ love pigeons. The other day I was sitting in Starbucks

looking out the window and I was watching this amazing, beautiful, dynamic

little pigeon. This group of about five 20-somethings came along and the bird

was walking around in front of them. All of a sudden, while I was gushing at how

awesome the bird was, one of these assholes kicked him onto the street, then

turned around to his friends and they were laughing. I was in shock. I couldn't

even believe it and I thought, well, that about sums up people's respect for

living beings, or at least for other species. It was disgusting. I should have

gotten Vik to go out there and set those jerks straight. Oh well. Maybe one day

the aliens will come and kick that scumbag out into traffic. But I digress, what

I originally meant to mention was that there's a site I came across recently at

http://www.poultry.org/ It's not warm fuzzie but it is important and

educational. It's brought to you by my friends over at Farm Sanctuary (

http://www3.sympatico.ca/anji/farm_sanctuary.html http://www.farmsanctuary.com/

)

Check it out.

Cluck cluck,

-anji

> > " amazon grrrl " <bliss

>

> I just had to share this. Its so cute and surreal. Serious warm fuzzies.

>

> http://www.upc-online.org/henny's_new_friends.html

>

> Peace,

> Bliss

--

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March 25, 2002

In a message dated 3/25/02 12:27:34 PM Central Standard Time, jstockdill writes:

Please keep discussions to recipes and cooking, not morals

and beliefs. I don't want to here your morals for they are different than

mine.

No where in the description[enclosed below] does it mention discussion of

beliefs and judgments

--jon

Thank you, I was getting ready to unsub. I came here to learn more about preparing foods, not to be reminded of the other.

March 25, 2002

> But really, I'm sorry that I stirred up this all. I just ran into a

> prof and his wife at the grocery store and she commented how she would

> never spend $2 for a dozen of eggs, even knowing about the practises

> common in egg production. They had just gotten out of church. So much

> for ethics in some folks...

I hear that! I can't stand going to church and seeing people wearing fur

coats. I tell my husband I will pray for them so one day they will learn

compassion.

March 25, 2002

Just because your morals differ for anothers means that you don't want to hear them? Pardon me for speaking up, but that seems like a very closed-minded attitud to me..... I enjoy to hear what others think and feel, even if it differs from myself.

Talon Dreamweaver

"When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that individual is crazy."

-- Dave Barry

Please keep discussions to recipes and cooking, not moralsand beliefs. I don't want to here your morals for they are different thanmine.No where in the description[enclosed below] does it mention discussion ofbeliefs and judgments--jon

March 25, 2002

I d from another supposed vegetarian cooking group because

every other post (and increasingly more like every post) involved

political and moral issues. I don't have a problem listening to

other's attitudes/morals/etcera. I agree that understanding problems

from different perspectives can be refreshing. However, I too would

like to find a vegetarian cooking group that focuses on vegetarian

cooking. This group seems to be GREAT for that. I love the wonderful

recipes and cooking ideas. I am relatively new to the list. I hope it

remains a primarily cooking and food oriented group. Thanks.

George

, " Elgie, Sarah CAR "

<sarah_elgie> wrote:

> Just because your morals differ for anothers means that you don't

want to

> hear them? Pardon me for speaking up, but that seems like a very

> closed-minded attitud to me..... I enjoy to hear what others think

and feel,

> even if it differs from myself.

>

> Talon Dreamweaver

> " When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one

individual who

> perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often,

that

> individual is crazy. "

> -- Dave Barry

>

> Please keep discussions to recipes and cooking,

not morals

> and beliefs. I don't want to here your morals for they are

different than

> mine.

>

> No where in the description[enclosed below] does it mention

discussion of

> beliefs and judgments

>

> --jon

March 25, 2002

I agree & will add 2 points. It's a *free* list for crying out loud.

Delete the messages, get over it/get a life, don't take it so

seriously, unsub if you can't handle it. Who cares.

, " Elgie, Sarah CAR " <

sarah_elgie> wrote:

> Just because your morals differ for anothers means that you don't want to

> hear them? Pardon me for speaking up, but that seems like a very

> closed-minded attitud to me..... I enjoy to hear what others think and feel,

> even if it differs from myself.

>

> Talon Dreamweaver

> " When trouble arises and things look bad, there is always one individual who

> perceives a solution and is willing to take command. Very often, that

> individual is crazy. "

> -- Dave Barry

>

> Please keep discussions to recipes and cooking, not morals

> and beliefs. I don't want to here your morals for they are different than

> mine.

>

> No where in the description[enclosed below] does it mention discussion of

> beliefs and judgments

>

> --jon

March 25, 2002

every single thing you do is moral, and the entire

existance of a 'vegetarian' list is moral, in more

ways than one. morals are simply the reasons you do

what you do why you do. if that bothers you, ban me

from the list. it's your ignorance, not mine.

--- lilithwinddancer wrote:

> In a message dated 3/25/02 12:27:34 PM Central

> Standard Time,

> jstockdill writes:

>

> >

> > Please keep discussions to

> recipes and cooking, not morals

> > and beliefs. I don't want to here your morals for

> they are different than

> > mine.

> >

> > No where in the description[enclosed below] does

> it mention discussion of

> > beliefs and judgments

> >

> > --jon

>

> Thank you, I was getting ready to unsub. I came

> here to learn more about

> preparing foods, not to be reminded of the other.

>

Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®

http://movies./

March 26, 2002

Personally i only joined this list for food receipes and I joined it BECAUSE

there wasn't all the politics attached. There are other lists that do discuss

the moral implications - but I am not interested in that from this list.

fb

March 26, 2002

Oh puhleeze!! I only posted that link because she asked " what do they

do to the eggs... " . Sorry! I will post no more links except for

recipes, OK? I am sorry this got stirred up.

Let's move ON...

:-)

, " Jon Stockdill " <jstockdill@s...> wrote:

> Please keep discussions to recipes and cooking,

not morals

> and beliefs. I don't want to here your morals for they are

different than

> mine.

>

> No where in the description[enclosed below] does it mention

discussion of

> beliefs and judgments

>

> --jon

>

> Description Category: Vegetarian

> this list is for vegetarians, vegans and those who want more

recipes in

> those areas and have no time. Recipes that can be fixed quickly

and/or

> easily as well as help for people on a budget. I am a vegetarian,

and

> though I have found a decent amout of vegetarian recipies - I have

trouble

> getting quick ones, especially good ones. I love food and I love to

cook,

> but I eat for taste and cook for a meat eater...and cannot cook or

eat meat.

> Quick, appetizing recipes on a budget are in great need at my place

and by

> listening and watching others...I'm not the only one...join us!

March 29, 2002

*yawn*

I will be unsubbing now.

-

" keith graves " <sleepingtao

Tuesday, March 26, 2002 12:34 AM

Re: chickens

> every single thing you do is moral, and the entire

> existance of a 'vegetarian' list is moral, in more

> ways than one. morals are simply the reasons you do

> what you do why you do. if that bothers you, ban me

> from the list. it's your ignorance, not mine.

>

> --- lilithwinddancer wrote:

> > In a message dated 3/25/02 12:27:34 PM Central

> > Standard Time,

> > jstockdill writes:

> >

> > >

> > > Please keep discussions to

> > recipes and cooking, not morals

> > > and beliefs. I don't want to here your morals for

> > they are different than

> > > mine.

> > >

> > > No where in the description[enclosed below] does

> > it mention discussion of

> > > beliefs and judgments

> > >

> > > --jon

> >

> > Thank you, I was getting ready to unsub. I came

> > here to learn more about

> > preparing foods, not to be reminded of the other.

> >

>

> Movies - coverage of the 74th Academy Awards®

> http://movies./

>

> contact owner: -owner

> Mail list:

> Delivered-mailing list

> List-Un: -

>

> no flaming arguing or denigration of others allowed

> contact owner with complaints regarding posting/list

> or anything else. Thank you.

> please share/comment/inform and mostly enjoy this list

>

January 14, 2003

-

" karin ridgers " <veganessex

Tuesday, January 14, 2003 10:58 AM

Fwd: Chickens

>

> From the New York Times...........

>

> If Chickens Are So Smart, Why Aren't They Eating Us?

> By WILLIAM GRIMES

> The wrath of PETA, the animal rights group, has now been turned on KFC,

> the fried-chicken chain. After two years of failed negotiations aimed at

> forcing KFC to introduce more humane practices into the raising and

> slaughtering

> of chickens, PETA announced last week that it would start a worldwide

> " Kentucky

> Fried Cruelty " campaign, distributing posters, stickers and leaflets that

> feature a cartoon Colonel Sanders grinning wickedly as he slices open a

> live bird.

>

> PETA, or People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, wants KFC, among

other

> things, to kill its chickens using gas rather than slitting their throats,

> to increase their living space and to provide perches and shelters for the

> birds. " KFC has shortchanged the chickens, leaving us no choice but to

turn

> up the heat, " said Bruce Friedrich, PETA's director of vegan outreach.

> " McDonald's,

> Burger King and Wendy's responded to consumer pressure; KFC would do well

> to follow their lead. " YUM Brands, the parent company of KFC, insisted

that

> its animal welfare program had brought about improvements in the way its

> suppliers raised and killed their chickens.

>

> One claim in the PETA campaign is sure to catch the attention of anyone

> who has ever had close dealings with a chicken. " Chickens are inquisitive

> and interesting animals, " the campaign's press release begins, " and are

> thought to be at least as intelligent as dogs or cats. "

>

> Chickens, with or without the 11 secret herbs and spices, may have

splendid

> qualities, but not many people would put intelligence high on the list.

> My own experience, a brief but intense relationship with a large Black

> Australorp

> that took up residence one day in my backyard in Astoria, Queens, inclines

> me to take a sunny view of chickens. My hen, whose activities I chronicled

> in " My Fine Feathered Friend, " impressed me as a self-starter, go-getter,

> early riser, eternal optimist and all-around good sport. She had a certain

> wily intelligence, always managing to keep me at arm's length without

> actually

> breaking into a full, panic-stricken run.

>

> She also seemed to have a sense of fun, as well as a dark (dare I say

> brooding?)

> side. In a playful mood, she would sneak up on the most nervous cat in the

> yard and cackle unexpectedly, propelling the victim into a three-foot

> vertical

> leap. A chicken cannot rub its hands together in glee, but this one gave

> every sign of wanting to. At other times I would catch it staring at the

> glass of my basement window, pondering who knows what. Staring

open-mouthed

> does not count as genius, I decided.

>

> " I've spent all my life around chickens, and I've seen no instance of

> anything

> I'd call intelligence, " said Edwin Jemison, who sells chemicals for the

> Jones-Hamilton Company to chicken producers. " All a chicken wants is to

> be the same every day, to eat his fill and be comfortable. I think that's

> a sign of low intelligence. " Mr. Jemison did admit that the domestic

turkey

> is probably the gold standard for stupidity. While chickens can survive

> a rainstorm outside, turkeys will look skyward and drown as their throats

> fill with water.

>

> Scientists take a brighter view of the chicken. Chris Evans, who studies

> animal behavior and communication at Macquarie University in Australia,

> rejects the usefulness of cross-species comparisons, and indeed, of

> intelligence

> as a useful concept when dealing with animals. But he can make a strong

> case for the chicken as a bird deserving respect. Chickens exist in stable

> social groups. They can recognize each other by their facial features.

They

> have 24 distinct cries that communicate a wealth of information to one

> other,

> including separate alarm calls depending on whether a predator is

traveling

> by land or sea. They are good at solving problems. " As a trick at

> conferences

> I sometimes list these attributes, without mentioning chickens, and people

> thing I'm talking about monkeys, " Mr. Evans said.

>

> Perhaps most persuasive is the chicken's intriguing ability to understand

> that an object, when taken away and hidden, nevertheless continues to

exist.

> This is beyond the capacity of small children. Even so, Mr. Evans

conceded,

> " I don't think an argument based on chicken intelligence is going to go

> anywhere. "

>

> Mr. Friedrich of PETA insists that social relations among chickens are

more

> developed than those among cats, and nearly as developed as those among

> dogs. " When Jesus was looking for a way to express God's love for man, he

> used the example of a hen's love for her brood, " he said.

>

> Still, the Mensa chicken might be a hard sell. Sam Rudy, a Broadway press

> agent who grew up collecting eggs on the family farm in Pennsylvania,

grants

> that chickens have an undeniable craftiness. But after years spent in

daily

> struggle with hens who pecked his hands, he remains skeptical about the

> brain of the average chicken. " I don't think there's a Rhodes scholar

among

> them, " he said.

>

> --- End of the Attached Message ---

>

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July 3, 2003

Mr. Pete,

That was a wonderful reply. I hope that Wes considers how much he's changed

over the last few months, and how much more he may change (learn,

reconsider) over the next several. I respect folks who have the courage to

live their convictions, and I respect folks who constantly consider their

convictions. " One thing only I know for certain, that is I know nothing at

all. " Socrates.

December 22, 2008

We are working with a neighborhood shelter. They generally get cats and

rabbits; they get chicks and ducks after every Easter, and we plan to build our

flock from there.

--- On Mon, 12/22/08, chandelle <earthmother213 wrote:

chandelle <earthmother213

Re: Re: Chickens

Monday, December 22, 2008, 12:40 PM

Robin, are you intending to raise the chickens from chicks? If this isn't

essential, you could find a local farm sanctuary and adopt some chickens.

Most sanctuaries are constantly trying to adopt out their animals to worthy

homes who will not exploit or abuse them, and it's very difficult for them

to find such homes.

I don't believe that any interaction or coexistence with animals is

exploitative or abusive by default. We've adopted cats and dogs, not to eat

them or wear their fur, but to live with them in harmony. Humans are

animals and we've almost always lived with other animals. Living with

chickens need not be exploitative or abusive, as is evidenced in

sanctuaries. On our future homestead we plan to adopt sanctuary chickens

for the mutually beneficial arrangement of giving them a wonderful place to

live and be safe while their manure fertilizes our plants. In the wild

chickens would eat most of their own eggs, which helps them prevent calcium

deficiency, so you could allow them to do that rather than consuming the

eggs yourself.

Chandelle

--

" The demand for equal rights in every vocation of life is just and fair;

but, after all, the most vital right is the right to love and be loved. "

~Emma Goldman

December 23, 2008

Hi Robin,

As a homeschooler, I can easily control what my DD eats and most of

what she is exposed to during co-ops. We have a co-op full of

wonderful vegetarian families but we are the only vegans. So, I find

it difficult sometimes. They are well-intentioned and people I truly

want my family to be friends with. But, we sometimes have that field

trip to the zoo or other that we have to deal with. Another friend of

mine told me she handles this by taking notes on the animal

conditions. She and her children write letters to the zoo or rehab

center, etc when they get home. If severe conditions don't improve,

they send a letter to the editor of the local paper. The children get

lessons in science, animal welfare, language, debate and if needed,

standing up for those less fortunate on a large scale (this could

certainly give them experience to help abused people as well).

You could incorporate animal welfare as an extension of animal

husbandry and the typical science lessons. Welfare can be researched

and debated. What is the difference between welfare and rights and

how do these fit into your religious beliefs? How do pets fit into

this discussion? What about cultural differences? (The use of our

pets as food in other countries.) Why are these animals eaten as food

and what could we eat instead? The children could submit written

plans for the best way to care for these animals. Who will be taking

care of these animals? Having the children maintain the best

conditions would show them why factory farming is not a good idea.

Responsibility in our daily lives and what that encompasses could be

covered -are we responsible only for what we choose to see? You may

decide to discuss child abuse and how animal abuse laws were first

used to protect children in the U.S. There is much to be learned

about compassion and empathy as well. Can the children use what they

have learned to improve the conditions of the other animals in the

zoo? The rescued chickens could certainly gain a good home and the

children can learn so much.

Good luck,

Carrol

, robin koloms <rkoloms wrote:

>

> Greeting from cold (and getting colder), snowy Chicago. Without

quite realizing it was happening, I am now on a committee looking

into having a chicken coop, perhaps co-op, at a neighborhood park

that has a small zoo.

>

> I would love to hear from anyone who keeps chickens at home or with

other families, and parents, teachers and homeschoolers who have

incorporated chickens into lessons.

>

> Thank you!!

>

> Robin

>

December 23, 2008

Hi Carroll,

Thank you so much for the suggestion!

Robin

Can anything be more ridiculous than that a man should have the right to kill me

because he lives on the other side of the water, and because his ruler has a

quarrel with mine. - Blaise Pascal

--- On Tue, 12/23/08, rtillmansmail <rtillmansmail wrote:

rtillmansmail <rtillmansmail

Re: Chickens

Tuesday, December 23, 2008, 11:49 AM