eating and living with meat eaters

March 18, 2007

Hello,

I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for inviting me. I have

just recently become vegan and it's creating some problems. As I feel

pretty alone in this, would it be possible to create a discussion

about the issue of how to deal with meat eaters, with your spouse

being one and about how vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?

I am very frustrated because where I live (Riverside which is a medium

sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or anything like this, and

I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and only 1 vegan (and

he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor of ours. I think I understand why he

is so reclusive).

I don't have anybody to talk about this in my immediate family. My

husband gets annoyed because he finds it " boring " (I admit i got mad

today and said, " o you find the suffering of animals for food

boring " ...its pretty much silence ever since, he jumped out of the car

and went shopping for himself and bought himself a big piece of ham).

Cheyenne

March 19, 2007

Hi Cheyenne,

Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we progress in different

pace than our spouses and family and we have to be exceptionaly

patient. Think, that they just do not know better and they have to get

educated as you did, but on their own terms and pace. It cannot be

forced.

I am married and we have a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and I

are fully vegetarian in transition to veganism and my hubby is well on

the way and very supportive, but there are always those questions from

other members of our families and friends.

I read several books and I found this one the best aprochaing those

issues like yours:

Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniak

http://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1\

/104-8175780-1905533?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1

It's an awesome and it very simply explains and comforts on how to

deal with all those questions.

If you have children I can dig out some more I am recently reading.

Hope this helped

Good luck and dont get discouraged, there are more people like us that

we think :-)

Barbara

www.veggiechild.com

, " cheyenne "

<chaag62 wrote:

>

> Hello,

> I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for inviting me. I have

> just recently become vegan and it's creating some problems. As I feel

> pretty alone in this, would it be possible to create a discussion

> about the issue of how to deal with meat eaters, with your spouse

> being one and about how vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?

> I am very frustrated because where I live (Riverside which is a medium

> sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or anything like this, and

> I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and only 1 vegan (and

> he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor of ours. I think I understand why he

> is so reclusive).

> I don't have anybody to talk about this in my immediate family. My

> husband gets annoyed because he finds it " boring " (I admit i got mad

> today and said, " o you find the suffering of animals for food

> boring " ...its pretty much silence ever since, he jumped out of the car

> and went shopping for himself and bought himself a big piece of ham).

>

> Cheyenne

>

March 19, 2007

Hi Cheyenne-

I really feel for you. I apologize for the long post upfront, but your pain really hits home for me. I've been vegan for a year now, and the first 3 months were definitely the hardest, but it gets easier. Like you, I felt very alone, angry and sad about what I had become aware of. You are smart to turn to veggie groups, cyber space, or wherever you can find support from like-minded people. It's so important to be able to share this experience.

Anyway, my husband still eats meat (although he's cut down quite a bit over the last year), and I found I just had to give him space to process my lifestyle change, and let him continue his own way of doing things. At first, I thought this kind of acceptance somehow made me less vegan, but I soon learned that he was more responsive, and willing to listen, if he felt I wasn't trying to convert him (I will never stop trying to convert him, but I do it more indirectly now, and I know it's just going to take time).

I have set some boundaries though, like having separate dish scrubbies to wash the dishes (I don't like having pieces of egg and meat trapped in the sponge I use to wash my dishes), I do not cook meat, eggs, etc. for him, and I've asked him to refrain from certain methods of cooking meat, like browning or broiling, as the smell is really hard for me. Also, if he's eating meat in front of me, I just don't look at his plate. Eventually, we've worked out a system, and over time, he's become more willing to listen to what I have to say. It's so hard though not to judge or be angry, I know. But, in the long run, I've found it's a more effective approach.

One trick I've found to be a "soft sell" for teaching my husband about the lifestyle, is to keep some pro-veg and anti-cruelty literature on the back of the toilet (not the most noble place, but it is practical) so he can thumb through it without feeling like I'm breathing down his neck. Every now and then he'll surprise me with some gem of information.

Also, Jo Stepaniak of "Ask Jo" at Vegsource.com (she's an author too), always has great advice on virtually every aspect of veganism. She has a whole archive on relationship advice www.vegsource.com/jo/qa/archive.htm#rel

Finally, I just want to share one last thing. When I first went vegan, I felt like I was going through the Five Stages of Grief, so I posted my interpretation of them on another forum. I had a lot of responses from people who felt similar, and many of us concluded that these stages never really go away. Rather, one shifts back and forth between them depending on the day. I don't find this discouraging though, I think it's like any other fact of life. Some days are easier than others. I like to refer back to this concept, as I think it helps give me perspective.

Denial - I'll live my vegan life and others can live theirs…all will be at peace.

Anger - What the heck? How can people look the other way? The human race sucks. We're a bunch of greedy, selfish clods who are only interested in satisfying any and every selfish little urge regardless of who or what it affects.

Bargaining - Okay. I'll only engage in a little healthy debate from time to time. Strike a good balance between voicing my opinion and knowing when to back off.

Depression - Nobody understands. Hello??? Is everybody brainwashed?? Hubby, can you hear me? Mom? Animals everywhere are being frustrated, tortured, and killed every second of every day. Hurry! Stop it! Stop...IT! IT is never going to stop - not in my lifetime, not in my children's, children's lifetime. My only support system is in cyberspace (Sigh).

Acceptance - I can do my part. It has to be enough. I cannot force my friends and my family to embrace the lifestyle. I certainly cannot go on hating them. I have to stay healthy so that I can spread the word and be a good example of a what a vegan is - peaceful and happy.

Anyway, I hope others from the group will share their experience as well, as we all need support, no matter how far along we are in the process.

Julia , "cheyenne" <chaag62 wrote:>> Hello,> I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for inviting me. I have > just recently become vegan and it's creating some problems. As I feel > pretty alone in this, would it be possible to create a discussion > about the issue of how to deal with meat eaters, with your spouse > being one and about how vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?> I am very frustrated because where I live (Riverside which is a medium > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or anything like this, and > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and only 1 vegan (and > he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor of ours. I think I understand why he > is so reclusive).> I don't have anybody to talk about this in my immediate family. My > husband gets annoyed because he finds it "boring" (I admit i got mad > today and said, "o you find the suffering of animals for food > boring"...its pretty much silence ever since, he jumped out of the car > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a big piece of ham).> > Cheyenne>

March 19, 2007

I found the book: Vegan Freaks: Being Vegan in a Non-Vegan

World by Bob & Jenna Torres and their website, forum, and podcast to be

immensely helpful: Here is a link to the TX VF Meet-up forum thread http://www.veganfreaks.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4261 & page=37 & highlight=TX+meet

Christine

Christine McGarvin, Plano,

Texas

Email: cmcgarvin

March 19, 2007

Hi Julia, Thank you so much for your compassionate letter! It is so good to know that others go through similar experiences. Yes, it is good to have online communities and people to talk to.Yesterday when we visited my stepdaughter and the family, my husband's ex wife was there,too, and cooked dinner (we didn't expect to stay for dinner or that there would be one), she was considerate enough to do it vegetarian. However, my husband had not told her that I went vegan which I explained to her when we went to the store alone. Her response to my explaining was, "I am still going to eat meat" (I brought up the cruelty on factory farms, the fact that baby cows are being separated between 2 and 12 hours of birth from their mom's, global warming, and her answer to each one of these was the same, "I am still going to eat meat". I am shaken every time I get such an uncaring and cold response like this) She had told me a few weeks ago

that it felt weird to her not to eat meat (she had tried vegetarian several times). My stepdaughter just had a baby 4 weeks ago, and yesterday she told us that as this was the Year of the Pig and on top of it the year of the Golden Pig (which is only every 60 years) that Eden was born, she was going to have a pig tattoo-and she still eats pig! I cannot comprehend how otherwise intelligent people don't see the contradiction (or as Francione puts it, schizophrenia) in this! My husband used to be vegetarian years ago for 5 years. He told me that he knew all about what animals go through etc but he still just likes meat.he feels that he is himself when he eats what he wants (pretty self absorbed to me as this is not about me or about him but about the suffering of the animals). I am in the meantime not allowed anymore to bring up any animal issue (not even just telling him about the victories we have in re horse slaughter etc), he cuts me off. He is at this

time not interested in giving back to the community or do anything in that direction. He is an old hippie saying "been there done that". I am just glad that there are online communities and people one can talk to and share experiences with. Using the 5 stages of grief is a great way to look at this experience, and it hits right on the mark! Thank you for sharing this! You are absolutely right when you say that one bounces back and forth between the stages. I will ask my husband in exchange for my consideration and not talking about these issues anymore (he cuts me off every time I bring ANYTHING up about animals) for his consideration in some things.Right now, there is a rift, and I think he's getting a little panicky (he said last night, "you're so distant", well I was thinking about what his ex had said and about his daughter and was feeling very depressed, and it does feel i am with an accomplice to animal cruelty, can't put

it any other way. What makes it worse is that he IS educated about this.) Thank you for your support! CheyenneJulia McCloud <monkey60613 wrote: Hi Cheyenne- I really feel for you. I apologize for the long post upfront, but your pain really hits home for me. I've been vegan for a year now, and the first 3 months were definitely the hardest, but it gets easier. Like you, I felt very alone, angry and sad about what I had become aware

of. You are smart to turn to veggie groups, cyber space, or wherever you can find support from like-minded people. It's so important to be able to share this experience. Anyway, my husband still eats meat (although he's cut down quite a bit over the last year), and I found I just had to give him space to process my lifestyle change, and let him continue his own way of doing things. At first, I thought this kind of acceptance somehow made me less vegan, but I soon learned that he was more responsive, and willing to listen, if he felt I wasn't trying to convert him (I will never stop trying to convert him, but I do it more indirectly now, and I know it's just going to take time). I have set some boundaries though, like having separate dish scrubbies to wash the dishes (I don't like having pieces of egg and meat trapped in the sponge I use to wash my dishes), I do not cook meat, eggs, etc. for him, and I've asked him to refrain from certain methods of

cooking meat, like browning or broiling, as the smell is really hard for me. Also, if he's eating meat in front of me, I just don't look at his plate. Eventually, we've worked out a system, and over time, he's become more willing to listen to what I have to say. It's so hard though not to judge or be angry, I know. But, in the long run, I've found it's a more effective approach. One trick I've found to be a "soft sell" for teaching my husband about the lifestyle, is to keep some pro-veg and anti-cruelty literature on the back of the toilet (not the most noble place, but it is practical) so he can thumb through it without feeling like I'm breathing down his neck. Every now and then he'll surprise me with some gem of information. Also, Jo Stepaniak of "Ask Jo" at Vegsource.com (she's an author too), always has great advice on virtually every aspect of veganism. She has a whole archive on relationship advice www.vegsource.com/jo/qa/archive.htm#rel Finally, I just want to share one last thing. When I first went vegan, I felt like I was going through the Five Stages of Grief, so I posted my interpretation of them on another forum. I had a lot of responses from people who felt similar, and many of us concluded that these stages never really go away. Rather, one shifts back and forth between them depending on the day. I don't find this discouraging though, I think it's like any other fact of life. Some days are easier than others. I like to refer back to this concept, as I think it helps give me perspective. Denial - I'll live my vegan life and others can live theirs…all will be at peace. Anger - What the heck? How can people look the other way? The human race sucks. We're a bunch of greedy,

selfish clods who are only interested in satisfying any and every selfish little urge regardless of who or what it affects. Bargaining - Okay. I'll only engage in a little healthy debate from time to time. Strike a good balance between voicing my opinion and knowing when to back off. Depression - Nobody understands. Hello??? Is everybody brainwashed?? Hubby, can you hear me? Mom? Animals everywhere are being frustrated, tortured, and killed every second of every day. Hurry! Stop it! Stop...IT! IT is never going to stop - not in my lifetime, not in my children's, children's lifetime. My only support system is in cyberspace (Sigh). Acceptance - I can do my part. It has to be enough. I cannot force my friends and my family to embrace the lifestyle. I certainly cannot go on hating them. I have to stay healthy so that I can spread the word and be a good example of a what a vegan is - peaceful and happy. Anyway, I hope others

from the group will share their experience as well, as we all need support, no matter how far along we are in the process. Julia , "cheyenne" <chaag62 wrote:>> Hello,> I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for inviting me. I have > just recently become vegan and it's creating some problems. As I feel > pretty alone in this, would it be possible to create a discussion > about the issue of how to deal with meat eaters, with your spouse > being one and about how vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?> I am very frustrated because where I live (Riverside which is a medium > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or anything like this, and > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and only 1 vegan (and > he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor of ours. I think I understand why he

> is so reclusive).> I don't have anybody to talk about this in my immediate family. My > husband gets annoyed because he finds it "boring" (I admit i got mad > today and said, "o you find the suffering of animals for food > boring"...its pretty much silence ever since, he jumped out of the car > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a big piece of ham).> > Cheyenne>

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March 19, 2007

Hi Barbara, Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem with my husband is that he IS educated about these issues :-( I think he is also trying to get me to care more about people issues than animal issues (never mind the fact that by fighting for the animals, one also fights for people). I went to Stepaniak's website, i like it a lot. I also went to Borders bookstore and browsed through her book, I might get it. Another one I really like and it's about animal rights and veganism is by Gary Francione "Intro to Animal Rights", he is brilliant (he is a law professor at Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been teaching animal rights there), his website is www.animal-rights.org Pleased let me know what you think! CheyenneBarbara <urbanveggie wrote: Hi Cheyenne,Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we progress in differentpace than our spouses and family and we have to be exceptionalypatient. Think, that they just do not know better and they have to geteducated as you did, but on their own terms and pace. It cannot beforced. I am married and we have a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and Iare fully vegetarian in transition to veganism and my hubby is well onthe way and very supportive, but there are always those questions fromother members of our families and friends. I read

several books and I found this one the best aprochaing thoseissues like yours:Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniakhttp://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8175780-1905533?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1It's an awesome and it very simply explains and comforts on how todeal with all those questions. If you have children I can dig out some more I am recently reading. Hope this helpedGood luck and dont get discouraged, there are more people like us thatwe think :-)Barbarawww.veggiechild.com ,

"cheyenne"<chaag62 wrote:>> Hello,> I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for inviting me. I have > just recently become vegan and it's creating some problems. As I feel > pretty alone in this, would it be possible to create a discussion > about the issue of how to deal with meat eaters, with your spouse > being one and about how vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?> I am very frustrated because where I live (Riverside which is a medium > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or anything like this, and > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and only 1 vegan (and > he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor of ours. I think I understand why he > is so reclusive).> I don't have anybody to talk about this in my immediate family. My > husband gets annoyed because he finds it "boring" (I admit i got mad > today and said, "o you find

the suffering of animals for food > boring"...its pretty much silence ever since, he jumped out of the car > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a big piece of ham).> > Cheyenne>

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March 19, 2007

What an excellent exchange. This is why VNOD was created and what we hope to do. To discuss, offer support, and together, work through our common problems. Thanks to all.

For the animals,

Margaret

Christine Bradley Mar 19, 2007 10:33 AM Re: Re: eating and living with meat eaters

Hi Barbara,

Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem with my husband is that he IS educated about these issues :-( I think he is also trying to get me to care more about people issues than animal issues (never mind the fact that by fighting for the animals, one also fights for people).

I went to Stepaniak's website, i like it a lot. I also went to Borders bookstore and browsed through her book, I might get it. Another one I really like and it's about animal rights and veganism is by Gary Francione "Intro to Animal Rights", he is brilliant (he is a law professor at Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been teaching animal rights there), his website is www.animal-rights.org

Pleased let me know what you think!

CheyenneBarbara <urbanveggie > wrote:

Hi Cheyenne,Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we progress in differentpace than our spouses and family and we have to be exceptionalypatient. Think, that they just do not know better and they have to geteducated as you did, but on their own terms and pace. It cannot beforced. I am married and we have a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and Iare fully vegetarian in transition to veganism and my hubby is well onthe way and very supportive, but there are always those questions fromother members of our families and friends. I read several books and I found this one the best aprochaing thoseissues like yours:Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniakhttp://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8175780-1905533?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1It's an awesome and it very simply explains and comforts on how todeal with all those questions. If you have children I can dig out some more I am recently reading. Hope this helpedGood luck and dont get discouraged, there are more people like us thatwe think :-)Barbarawww.veggiechild.com , "cheyenne"<chaag62 wrote:>> Hello,> I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for inviting me. I have > just recently become vegan and it's creating some problems. As I feel > pretty alone in this, would it be possible to create a discussion > about the issue of how to deal with meat eaters, with your spouse > being one and about how vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?> I am very frustrated because where I live (Riverside which is a medium > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or anything like this, and > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and only 1 vegan (and > he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor of ours. I think I understand why he > is so reclusive).> I don't have anybody to talk about this in my immediate family. My > husband gets annoyed because he finds it "boring" (I admit i got mad > today and said, "o you find the suffering of animals for food > boring"...its pretty much silence ever since, he jumped out of the car > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a big piece of ham).> > Cheyenne>

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March 19, 2007

Margaret, Do you know any vitamin/mineral barnds that are vegan and not tested on animals? CheyenneMargaret Morin <margaret.morin wrote: What an excellent exchange. This is why VNOD was created and what we hope to do. To discuss, offer support, and together, work through our common problems. Thanks to all. For the animals, Margaret Christine Bradley Mar 19, 2007 10:33 AM Re: Re: eating and living with meat eaters Hi Barbara, Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem with my husband is that he IS educated about these issues :-( I think he is also trying to get me to care more about people issues than animal issues (never mind the fact that by fighting for the animals, one also fights for people). I went to Stepaniak's website, i like it a lot. I also went to Borders bookstore and browsed through her book, I might get it. Another one I really

like and it's about animal rights and veganism is by Gary Francione "Intro to Animal Rights", he is brilliant (he is a law professor at Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been teaching animal rights there), his website is www.animal-rights.org Pleased let me know what you think! CheyenneBarbara <urbanveggie > wrote: Hi Cheyenne,Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we progress in differentpace than our spouses and family and we have to be exceptionalypatient. Think, that they just do not know better and they have to geteducated as you did, but on their own terms and pace. It cannot beforced. I am married and we have a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and Iare fully vegetarian in transition

to veganism and my hubby is well onthe way and very supportive, but there are always those questions fromother members of our families and friends. I read several books and I found this one the best aprochaing thoseissues like yours:Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniakhttp://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8175780-1905533?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1It's an awesome and it very simply explains and comforts on how todeal with all those questions. If you have children I can dig out some more I am recently reading. Hope this helpedGood luck and dont get discouraged, there are more people like us thatwe think

:-)Barbarawww.veggiechild.com , "cheyenne"<chaag62 wrote:>> Hello,> I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for inviting me. I have > just recently become vegan and it's creating some problems. As I feel > pretty alone in this, would it be possible to create a discussion > about the issue of how to deal with meat eaters, with your spouse > being one and about how vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?> I am very frustrated because where I live (Riverside which is a medium > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or anything like this, and > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and only 1 vegan (and > he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor of ours. I think I understand why he > is so reclusive).> I

don't have anybody to talk about this in my immediate family. My > husband gets annoyed because he finds it "boring" (I admit i got mad > today and said, "o you find the suffering of animals for food > boring"...its pretty much silence ever since, he jumped out of the car > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a big piece of ham).> > Cheyenne> Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.Try the free Mail Beta.

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March 20, 2007

Hi

your welcome. I really like Julia's responce and her point about the 5

griev stages. SHe just speaks my mind.

I also get those comments that there are so many people/kids suffering

and how can I overlooked or even prefer the animals over my own specie

so to say.

Well, I usualy and politely ask what child-human issues are they

involved and how can I help them to support their issue. Most of the

time it catches the people off guard, because those who accuse don't

do much. It basicaly supports the point of mine that there is just too

many issues in the world and as a big picture it becomes very

overwhelming so dealing with it on individual basis help me to cope

with it. My point is: at least I CHOSE one and so something about it.

I don't eat meat and this helps the farm issues and environment (which

actualy does help people in a very direct manner LOL) etc. My biggest

passion are turtles so I am involved in that. I am member of several

organizations and rescues and I also created local DFW Turtle and

Tortoise Club so there is a place people can ask questions about their

chelonians and find a better care options for them. I also occasionaly

pick up a dog or cat and find them home or drive them in a shelter :-)

I really liked the Being Vegan book by her the best beacuse it

aproaches all our questions and issues in very direct and simple

explanatory way even me as english-scond-language-speaker can

understand AND apply.

I am reading now (among other books) Erin Pavlina's book on Raising

vegan Children in a non-vegan world and it's has also excelent point

which can be applied not only for children.

I find most of these books in 1/2 price bookstore so check one if you

have one near you.

It seems that you guys started some fun conversation so I have to go

read rest of your posts ;-)

Barbara

, Christine Bradley

<chaag62 wrote:

>

> Hi Barbara,

>

> Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem with my husband

is that he IS educated about these issues :-( I think he is also

trying to get me to care more about people issues than animal issues

(never mind the fact that by fighting for the animals, one also fights

for people).

> I went to Stepaniak's website, i like it a lot. I also went to

Borders bookstore and browsed through her book, I might get it.

Another one I really like and it's about animal rights and veganism is

by Gary Francione " Intro to Animal Rights " , he is brilliant (he is a

law professor at Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been

teaching animal rights there), his website is www.animal-rights.org

> Pleased let me know what you think!

>

> Cheyenne

>

> Barbara <urbanveggie wrote:

> Hi Cheyenne,

> Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we progress in different

> pace than our spouses and family and we have to be exceptionaly

> patient. Think, that they just do not know better and they have to get

> educated as you did, but on their own terms and pace. It cannot be

> forced.

> I am married and we have a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and I

> are fully vegetarian in transition to veganism and my hubby is well on

> the way and very supportive, but there are always those questions from

> other members of our families and friends.

> I read several books and I found this one the best aprochaing those

> issues like yours:

> Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniak

>

http://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1\

/104-8175780-1905533?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1

> It's an awesome and it very simply explains and comforts on how to

> deal with all those questions.

> If you have children I can dig out some more I am recently reading.

>

> Hope this helped

> Good luck and dont get discouraged, there are more people like us that

> we think :-)

>

> Barbara

> www.veggiechild.com

>

> , " cheyenne "

> <chaag62@> wrote:

> >

> > Hello,

> > I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for inviting me. I have

> > just recently become vegan and it's creating some problems. As I feel

> > pretty alone in this, would it be possible to create a discussion

> > about the issue of how to deal with meat eaters, with your spouse

> > being one and about how vegetarians feel when they see people eat

meat?

> > I am very frustrated because where I live (Riverside which is a

medium

> > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or anything like this,

and

> > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and only 1 vegan (and

> > he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor of ours. I think I understand why he

> > is so reclusive).

> > I don't have anybody to talk about this in my immediate family. My

> > husband gets annoyed because he finds it " boring " (I admit i got mad

> > today and said, " o you find the suffering of animals for food

> > boring " ...its pretty much silence ever since, he jumped out of the

car

> > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a big piece of ham).

> >

> > Cheyenne

> >

> Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.

> Try the free Mail Beta.

>

March 22, 2007

Hi, I got the comment again yesterday from my supervisor (when I told her that I didn't go to Panda Express anymore because they do not serve vegetarian dishes as even the vegetables have a little bit of beef stuff in them, she said, "why do you want them to be like you?" and "have you ever been really hungry and have had no food?") She scoffs at me whenever the issue comes up in any way. Two other coworkers are sometimes teasing me, one more in a nice way, the other is more like a snake, she bites for a second and then retreats. I have a question: when I was at my stepdaughters house last Sunday, she brought up that they would like to go to the beach soon and my husband said that then we could all go to the crab shack. I don't eat any meat anymore and I don't think it's really considerate but then, I don't have the right to hold them back either so that I am thinking either I'll go with them and hope they have a

salad at the restaurant or I just stay at the beach while they go. This is more difficult than I thought!! But that's ok, anything for the animals!! Thank you for mentioning Jo Stepaniak's book, I bought it last night and already am half ways through! I got even more shocking information about the baby calves. Has anybody ever read Gary Francione? He is very good,too, same philosophy as Jo.The only difference is that he would not accept living with a meat eater or anybody who uses any animal products. He stands his ground very firmly. Barbara, wow, you have a turtle club?? I have two water turtles, both rescued (I had never planned on having turtles but it just happened lol), one Penninsula cooter and one red eared slider. I ave them right now in a big acquarium but I would like to learn how I can make their environment even more adapted to their natural needs (in the acqarium, they have a platform to clinb on, a waterfall pump, and UV and

basking lamps and pebbles), especially when they get bigger (they're about 2 years old now).My husband found one of them, Emmitt, on the asphalt of the apartment complex we were living in at that time in georgia, the other was given to me by a former coworker, Emma was in pretty bad shape with a hole in her upper shell that has in the meantime healed. Any epxert siggestion would be very truly appreciated! What do you recommend feeding them especially when they get bigger? Could I join the turtle club? I am thinking about maybe doing a layover there in Dallas when I go to Germany this year, at the end of Augsut, maybe you'll have an event going that I could attend then? I am glad to be part of such a great group! Cheyenne Barbara <urbanveggie wrote: Hi your welcome. I really like Julia's responce and her point about the 5griev stages. SHe just speaks my mind. I also get those comments that there are so many people/kids sufferingand how can I overlooked or even prefer the animals over my own specieso to say. Well, I usualy and politely ask what child-human issues are theyinvolved and how can I help them to support their issue. Most of thetime it catches the people off guard, because those who accuse don'tdo much. It basicaly supports the point of mine that there is just toomany issues in the world and as a big

picture it becomes veryoverwhelming so dealing with it on individual basis help me to copewith it. My point is: at least I CHOSE one and so something about it.I don't eat meat and this helps the farm issues and environment (whichactualy does help people in a very direct manner LOL) etc. My biggestpassion are turtles so I am involved in that. I am member of severalorganizations and rescues and I also created local DFW Turtle andTortoise Club so there is a place people can ask questions about theirchelonians and find a better care options for them. I also occasionalypick up a dog or cat and find them home or drive them in a shelter :-)I really liked the Being Vegan book by her the best beacuse itaproaches all our questions and issues in very direct and simpleexplanatory way even me as english-scond-language-speaker canunderstand AND apply.I am reading now (among other books) Erin Pavlina's book on

Raisingvegan Children in a non-vegan world and it's has also excelent point which can be applied not only for children. I find most of these books in 1/2 price bookstore so check one if youhave one near you.It seems that you guys started some fun conversation so I have to goread rest of your posts ;-)Barbara , Christine Bradley<chaag62 wrote:>> Hi Barbara,> > Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem with my husbandis that he IS educated about these issues :-( I think he is alsotrying to get me to care more about people issues than animal issues(never mind the fact that by fighting for the animals, one also fightsfor people).> I went to Stepaniak's website, i like it a lot. I also went toBorders bookstore and browsed through her

book, I might get it.Another one I really like and it's about animal rights and veganism isby Gary Francione "Intro to Animal Rights", he is brilliant (he is alaw professor at Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has beenteaching animal rights there), his website is www.animal-rights.org> Pleased let me know what you think!> > Cheyenne> > Barbara <urbanveggie wrote:> Hi Cheyenne,> Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we progress in different> pace than our spouses and family and we have to be exceptionaly> patient. Think, that they just do not know better and they have to get> educated as you did, but on their own terms and pace. It cannot be> forced. > I am married and we have a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and I> are fully vegetarian in transition to veganism and my hubby is well on> the way and very supportive, but there

are always those questions from> other members of our families and friends. > I read several books and I found this one the best aprochaing those> issues like yours:> Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniak>http://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8175780-1905533?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1> It's an awesome and it very simply explains and comforts on how to> deal with all those questions. > If you have children I can dig out some more I am recently reading. > > Hope this helped> Good luck and dont get discouraged, there are more people like us that> we think :-)> > Barbara>

www.veggiechild.com> > , "cheyenne"> <chaag62@> wrote:> >> > Hello,> > I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for inviting me. I have > > just recently become vegan and it's creating some problems. As I feel > > pretty alone in this, would it be possible to create a discussion > > about the issue of how to deal with meat eaters, with your spouse > > being one and about how vegetarians feel when they see people eatmeat?> > I am very frustrated because where I live (Riverside which is amedium > > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or anything like this,and > > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and only 1 vegan (and > > he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor of ours. I think I

understand why he > > is so reclusive).> > I don't have anybody to talk about this in my immediate family. My > > husband gets annoyed because he finds it "boring" (I admit i got mad > > today and said, "o you find the suffering of animals for food > > boring"...its pretty much silence ever since, he jumped out of thecar > > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a big piece of ham).> > > > Cheyenne> >> > > > > > > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.> Try the free Mail Beta.>

Need Mail bonding?Go to the Mail Q&A for great tips from Answers users.

March 22, 2007

Hi there-

I know, it's so irritating that Panda has to put crap in EVERYTHING!

That's unfortunate (and inappropriate if you ask me), that your supervisor antagonizes you like that. I'm sorry you are getting it from all angles right now (home, work, etc.). It sucks in the beginning, but as you say, the animals are soooooo worth it, and it will get easier.

Regarding your Crab Shack question. It seems to me you and your family are stuck in a stand-off, on many levels. Somebody's got to offer the olive branch first, and being the bigger person (you truly are the bigger person, as evident in your commitment to the animals), you may have to be the first to do this. Plus, I think if you don't go, all the attention will be on the fact that you boycotted the lunch/dinner with them, and it will make it easier for them to write you off as being unreasonable or something. But, if you go and "kill them with kindness", I think you'll make a bigger statement by ordering a salad and showing them that you can adapt and that they are worth it too. Also, if you ever want them to join you at a veggie restaurant, you can bolster your request with the fact that you eat at "their" restaurants all the time.

Crab Shack does have salads www.joescrabshack.com/pages/menu.html . I think the Island Chicken Salad (sans chicken, of course) might work (and hopefully the dressing won't be ruined with chicken broth or something, but I'm sure they'd have oil and vinegar, worse case scenario). And, maybe if you call ahead and have your menu questions figured out, you can at least remove that anxiety from the equation.

It's terrible that, with all the emotions that come with having your eyes wide-open to the horrors animals face every day, you may have choose your battles right now with your family. Right now, you're an open wound and I wish they were kinder and more supportive of you. But, we love you here, and it will all work out.

Julia , Christine Bradley <chaag62 wrote:>> Hi,> > I got the comment again yesterday from my supervisor (when I told her that I didn't go to Panda Express anymore because they do not serve vegetarian dishes as even the vegetables have a little bit of beef stuff in them, she said, "why do you want them to be like you?" and "have you ever been really hungry and have had no food?") She scoffs at me whenever the issue comes up in any way. Two other coworkers are sometimes teasing me, one more in a nice way, the other is more like a snake, she bites for a second and then retreats.> I have a question: when I was at my stepdaughters house last Sunday, she brought up that they would like to go to the beach soon and my husband said that then we could all go to the crab shack. I don't eat any meat anymore and I don't think it's really considerate but then, I don't have the right to hold them back either so that I am thinking either I'll go with them and hope they have a salad at the restaurant or I just stay at the beach while they go. This is more difficult than I thought!! But that's ok, anything for the animals!!> Thank you for mentioning Jo Stepaniak's book, I bought it last night and already am half ways through! I got even more shocking information about the baby calves. Has anybody ever read Gary Francione? He is very good,too, same philosophy as Jo.The only difference is that he would not accept living with a meat eater or anybody who uses any animal products. He stands his ground very firmly.> Barbara, wow, you have a turtle club?? I have two water turtles, both rescued (I had never planned on having turtles but it just happened lol), one Penninsula cooter and one red eared slider. I ave them right now in a big acquarium but I would like to learn how I can make their environment even more adapted to their natural needs (in the acqarium, they have a platform to clinb on, a waterfall pump, and UV and basking lamps and pebbles), especially when they get bigger (they're about 2 years old now).My husband found one of them, Emmitt, on the asphalt of the apartment complex we were living in at that time in georgia, the other was given to me by a former coworker, Emma was in pretty bad shape with a hole in her upper shell that has in the meantime healed. Any epxert siggestion would be very truly appreciated! What do you recommend feeding them especially when they get bigger? Could I join the turtle club?> I am thinking about maybe doing a layover there in Dallas when I go to Germany this year, at the end of Augsut, maybe you'll have an event going that I could attend then?> > I am glad to be part of such a great group! > > Cheyenne> > > > Barbara urbanveggie wrote:> Hi > your welcome. I really like Julia's responce and her point about the 5> griev stages. SHe just speaks my mind. > I also get those comments that there are so many people/kids suffering> and how can I overlooked or even prefer the animals over my own specie> so to say. > Well, I usualy and politely ask what child-human issues are they> involved and how can I help them to support their issue. Most of the> time it catches the people off guard, because those who accuse don't> do much. It basicaly supports the point of mine that there is just too> many issues in the world and as a big picture it becomes very> overwhelming so dealing with it on individual basis help me to cope> with it. My point is: at least I CHOSE one and so something about it.> I don't eat meat and this helps the farm issues and environment (which> actualy does help people in a very direct manner LOL) etc. My biggest> passion are turtles so I am involved in that. I am member of several> organizations and rescues and I also created local DFW Turtle and> Tortoise Club so there is a place people can ask questions about their> chelonians and find a better care options for them. I also occasionaly> pick up a dog or cat and find them home or drive them in a shelter :-)> > I really liked the Being Vegan book by her the best beacuse it> aproaches all our questions and issues in very direct and simple> explanatory way even me as english-scond-language-speaker can> understand AND apply.> I am reading now (among other books) Erin Pavlina's book on Raising> vegan Children in a non-vegan world and it's has also excelent point > which can be applied not only for children. > I find most of these books in 1/2 price bookstore so check one if you> have one near you.> > It seems that you guys started some fun conversation so I have to go> read rest of your posts ;-)> Barbara> > , Christine Bradley> chaag62@ wrote:> >> > Hi Barbara,> > > > Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem with my husband> is that he IS educated about these issues :-( I think he is also> trying to get me to care more about people issues than animal issues> (never mind the fact that by fighting for the animals, one also fights> for people).> > I went to Stepaniak's website, i like it a lot. I also went to> Borders bookstore and browsed through her book, I might get it.> Another one I really like and it's about animal rights and veganism is> by Gary Francione "Intro to Animal Rights", he is brilliant (he is a> law professor at Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been> teaching animal rights there), his website is www.animal-rights.org> > Pleased let me know what you think!> > > > Cheyenne> > > > Barbara urbanveggie@ wrote:> > Hi Cheyenne,> > Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we progress in different> > pace than our spouses and family and we have to be exceptionaly> > patient. Think, that they just do not know better and they have to get> > educated as you did, but on their own terms and pace. It cannot be> > forced. > > I am married and we have a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and I> > are fully vegetarian in transition to veganism and my hubby is well on> > the way and very supportive, but there are always those questions from> > other members of our families and friends. > > I read several books and I found this one the best aprochaing those> > issues like yours:> > Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniak> >> http://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8175780-1905533?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1> > It's an awesome and it very simply explains and comforts on how to> > deal with all those questions. > > If you have children I can dig out some more I am recently reading. > > > > Hope this helped> > Good luck and dont get discouraged, there are more people like us that> > we think :-)> > > > Barbara> > www.veggiechild.com> > > > , "cheyenne"> > <chaag62@> wrote:> > >> > > Hello,> > > I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for inviting me. I have > > > just recently become vegan and it's creating some problems. As I feel > > > pretty alone in this, would it be possible to create a discussion > > > about the issue of how to deal with meat eaters, with your spouse > > > being one and about how vegetarians feel when they see people eat> meat?> > > I am very frustrated because where I live (Riverside which is a> medium > > > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or anything like this,> and > > > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and only 1 vegan (and > > > he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor of ours. I think I understand why he > > > is so reclusive).> > > I don't have anybody to talk about this in my immediate family. My > > > husband gets annoyed because he finds it "boring" (I admit i got mad > > > today and said, "o you find the suffering of animals for food > > > boring"...its pretty much silence ever since, he jumped out of the> car > > > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a big piece of ham).> > > > > > Cheyenne> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.> > Try the free Mail Beta.> >> > > > > > > > Need Mail bonding?> Go to the Mail Q & A for great tips from Answers users.>

March 22, 2007

Hi: I'm very new to this group and hope I'm not going off

topic. It seems to me that you are dealing with some

aggression from people over your convictions. I also don't

know which of you are rural, but I am. I am also part

Native American. I think that gives me a different

perspective.

In response to people who think respecting and being " for "

animals is anti-human, let me repeat something my

Grandfather and many Grandfathers have told me.

The world and the animals can live quite nicely without

humans; literally. They existed for millions of years and

thrived. They animals kept the world in perfect balance.

Man, on the other hand, can not survive without the animals

for the animals tame the world. Ask your friends to think

about this: " if you take man out of the world, the animals

will survive for millions more years. If you take animals

out of the world, man will perish quickly. "

Also, I was driving by a rural farmer's farm when they were

" harvesting " veal calves. They were kicking the calves and

laughing. The calves that could walk ran to the end of

their chains only to be met with sticks and more laughter.

I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

When they unchained the animals, the calves looked surprised

at their sudden freedom. They did not overcome their

surprise in time to run, but instead were grabbed by their

hair and thrown into the back of a gooseneck trailer. Some

were grabbed by their legs and thrown. They were tossed

like garbage bags and landed on top of each other like so

much waste. I saw their legs breaking. I heard their

screams. They were innocent babies and I stopped my van and

got out screaming " how can you do that to them, how can you

do that to them? They're not trash. "

The men kept throwing them. MY suffering as another human

watching the suffering of animals didn't matter to them. So

I screamed louder. Finally, the foreman came up to me

laughing and asked me what I'd said. I told him and he

laughed and laughed. " They are not animals, they are

product. "

I propose to ask several things. First of all, if killing

animals hurts the hearts, minds and souls of SOME of us

humans, doesn't that mean finding alternative foods is

actually helping humans. Second of all, isn't looking at

others as " less than " and unfeeling, whether those others

are human or not how the holocaust began? Isn't this animal

holocaust?

I also don't know if you have looked into how much land it

takes to raise beef vs soy and other crops. Statistics have

shown (and I'll get the studies if you haven't already read

them,) that it takes many, many more acreage for cattle.

This same book said that if we used this land for soy, there

would be no human starvation. Basically, we eat meat

because we want to, not because we have to. (I'm sorry if

I'm you guys already know this, I am VERY new.)

Living in this rural area, I have noticed that there is a

high incidence of family violence. I'd like to know if

anyone has studied the relation between being unsympathetic

to fellow sentient beings leads to callousness towards

humans. If so, then eating meat is harmful to the safety of

humans. Ok, huge leap there, but I'm just talking because

being vegetarian in a culture that worships beef, rodeos and

shootin' hogs is tough. I here horror stories every day. I

see horror stories. I pass trailers full of cattle going to

auction several days a week.

Instead of finding it hard to stick with vegetarianism here,

every time I pass a trailer and an old cow looks at me

without an eye in her socket and blood dripping down her

face (which happened) I say a prayer to her and tell her I

will stand firm. I know she is dead, but maybe I can save

her children.

In the literature I received from one of the vegetarian

socieites it said that if I don't eat meat, I save up to 90

cows a year. I think that is good for one person. I feel

that I've helped.

Sorry to ramble. Sorry to rant. Living in cattle country

is lonely when you love animals.

Hope I haven't offended anyone.

> Hi,

>

> I got the comment again yesterday from my supervisor

> (when I told her that I didn't go to Panda Express anymore

> because they do not serve vegetarian dishes as even the

> vegetables have a little bit of beef stuff in them, she

> said, " why do you want them to be like you? " and " have you

> ever been really hungry and have had no food? " ) She scoffs

> at me whenever the issue comes up in any way. Two other

> coworkers are sometimes teasing me, one more in a nice way

> , the other is more like a snake, she bites for a second

> and then retreats.

> I have a question: when I was at my stepdaughters house

> last Sunday, she brought up that they would like to go to

> the beach soon and my husband said that then we could all

> go to the crab shack. I don't eat any meat anymore and I

> don't think it's really considerate but then, I don't have

> the right to hold them back either so that I am thinking

> either I'll go with them and hope they have a salad at the

> restaurant or I just stay at the beach while they go. This

> is more difficult than I thought!! But that's ok, anything

> for the animals!!

> Thank you for mentioning Jo Stepaniak's book, I bought

> it last night and already am half ways through! I got even

> more shocking information about the baby calves. Has

> anybody ever read Gary Francione? He is very good,too,

> same philosophy as Jo.The only difference is that he would

> not accept living with a meat eater or anybody who uses

> any animal products. He stands his ground very firmly.

> Barbara, wow, you have a turtle club?? I have two water

> turtles, both rescued (I had never planned on having

> turtles but it just happened lol), one Penninsula cooter

> and one red eared slider. I ave them right now in a big

> acquarium but I would like to learn how I can make their

> environment even more adapted to their natural needs (in

> the acqarium, they have a platform to clinb on, a

> waterfall pump, and UV and basking lamps and pebbles),

> especially when they get bigger (they're about 2 years old

> now).My husband found one of them, Emmitt, on the asphalt

> of the apartment complex we were living in at that time in

> georgia, the other was given to me by a former coworker,

> Emma was in pretty bad shape with a hole in her upper

> shell that has in the meantime healed. Any epxert

> siggestion would be very truly appreciated! What do you

> recommend feeding them especially when they get bigger?

> Could I join the turtle club?

> I am thinking about maybe doing a layover there in

> Dallas when I go to Germany this year, at the end of

> Augsut, maybe you'll have an event going that I could

> attend then?

>

> I am glad to be part of such a great group!

>

> Cheyenne

>

> Barbara <urbanveggie wrote:

> Hi

> your welcome. I really like Julia's responce and her point

> about the 5 griev stages. SHe just speaks my mind.

> I also get those comments that there are so many

> people/kids suffering and how can I overlooked or even

> prefer the animals over my own specie so to say.

> Well, I usualy and politely ask what child-human issues

> are they involved and how can I help them to support their

> issue. Most of the time it catches the people off guard,

> because those who accuse don't do much. It basicaly

> supports the point of mine that there is just too many

> issues in the world and as a big picture it becomes very

> overwhelming so dealing with it on individual basis help

> me to cope with it. My point is: at least I CHOSE one and

> so something about it. I don't eat meat and this helps the

> farm issues and environment (which actualy does help

> people in a very direct manner LOL) etc. My biggest

> passion are turtles so I am involved in that. I am member

> of several organizations and rescues and I also created

> local DFW Turtle and Tortoise Club so there is a place

> people can ask questions about their chelonians and find a

> better care options for them. I also occasionaly pick up a

> dog or cat and find them home or drive them in a shelter

> :-)

>

> I really liked the Being Vegan book by her the best

> beacuse it aproaches all our questions and issues in very

> direct and simple explanatory way even me as

> english-scond-language-speaker can understand AND apply.

> I am reading now (among other books) Erin Pavlina's book

> on Raising vegan Children in a non-vegan world and it's

> has also excelent point which can be applied not only for

> children. I find most of these books in 1/2 price

> bookstore so check one if you have one near you.

>

> It seems that you guys started some fun conversation so I

> have to go read rest of your posts ;-)

> Barbara

>

> ,

> Christine Bradley <chaag62 wrote:

> >

> > Hi Barbara,

> >

> > Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem with

> my husband is that he IS educated about these issues :-( I

> think he is also trying to get me to care more about

> people issues than animal issues (never mind the fact that

> by fighting for the animals, one also fights for people).

> > I went to Stepaniak's website, i like it a lot. I also

> went to Borders bookstore and browsed through her book, I

> might get it. Another one I really like and it's about

> animal rights and veganism is by Gary Francione " Intro to

> Animal Rights " , he is brilliant (he is a law professor at

> Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been teaching

> > animal rights there), his website is

> > www.animal-rights.org Pleased let me know what you

> > think! Cheyenne

> >

> > Barbara <urbanveggie wrote:

> > Hi Cheyenne,

> > Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we progress

> > in different pace than our spouses and family and we

> > have to be exceptionaly patient. Think, that they just

> > do not know better and they have to get educated as you

> > did, but on their own terms and pace. It cannot be

> > forced. I am married and we have a small 17 month old

> > girl. My daughter and I are fully vegetarian in

> > transition to veganism and my hubby is well on the way

> and very supportive, but there are always those questions

> > from other members of our families and friends.

> > I read several books and I found this one the best

> > aprochaing those issues like yours:

> > Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniak

> >

>

http://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1\

/104-8175780-1905533?ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1

> > It's an awesome and it very simply explains and comforts

> > on how to deal with all those questions.

> > If you have children I can dig out some more I am

> > recently reading.

> > Hope this helped

> > Good luck and dont get discouraged, there are more

> > people like us that we think :-)

> >

> > Barbara

> > www.veggiechild.com

> >

> > ,

> > " cheyenne " <chaag62@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hello,

> > > I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for

> > > inviting me. I have just recently become vegan and

> > > it's creating some problems. As I feel pretty alone

> > > in this, would it be possible to create a discussion

> about the issue of how to deal with meat eaters, with your

> > > spouse being one and about how vegetarians feel when

> they see people eat meat?

> > > I am very frustrated because where I live (Riverside

> which is a medium

> > > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or

> anything like this, and

> > > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and

> > > only 1 vegan (and he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor of

> > > ours. I think I understand why he is so reclusive).

> > > I don't have anybody to talk about this in my

> > > immediate family. My husband gets annoyed because he

> > > finds it " boring " (I admit i got mad today and said,

> > > " o you find the suffering of animals for food

> boring " ...its pretty much silence ever since, he jumped

> out of the car

> > > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a big

> > > piece of ham).

> > > Cheyenne

> > >

> >

> > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.

> > Try the free Mail Beta.

> >

> Need Mail bonding?

> Go to the Mail Q & A for great tips from

> Answers users.

March 22, 2007

Hi Karen-

This is ABSOLUTELY on-topic, and very insightful. Again, welcome to

the group.

, " Karen Kraft "

<wolfsoul wrote:

>

> Hi: I'm very new to this group and hope I'm not going off

> topic. It seems to me that you are dealing with some

> aggression from people over your convictions. I also don't

> know which of you are rural, but I am. I am also part

> Native American. I think that gives me a different

> perspective.

>

> In response to people who think respecting and being " for "

> animals is anti-human, let me repeat something my

> Grandfather and many Grandfathers have told me.

>

> The world and the animals can live quite nicely without

> humans; literally. They existed for millions of years and

> thrived. They animals kept the world in perfect balance.

> Man, on the other hand, can not survive without the animals

> for the animals tame the world. Ask your friends to think

> about this: " if you take man out of the world, the animals

> will survive for millions more years. If you take animals

> out of the world, man will perish quickly. "

>

> Also, I was driving by a rural farmer's farm when they were

> " harvesting " veal calves. They were kicking the calves and

> laughing. The calves that could walk ran to the end of

> their chains only to be met with sticks and more laughter.

> I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

>

> When they unchained the animals, the calves looked surprised

> at their sudden freedom. They did not overcome their

> surprise in time to run, but instead were grabbed by their

> hair and thrown into the back of a gooseneck trailer. Some

> were grabbed by their legs and thrown. They were tossed

> like garbage bags and landed on top of each other like so

> much waste. I saw their legs breaking. I heard their

> screams. They were innocent babies and I stopped my van and

> got out screaming " how can you do that to them, how can you

> do that to them? They're not trash. "

>

> The men kept throwing them. MY suffering as another human

> watching the suffering of animals didn't matter to them. So

> I screamed louder. Finally, the foreman came up to me

> laughing and asked me what I'd said. I told him and he

> laughed and laughed. " They are not animals, they are

> product. "

>

> I propose to ask several things. First of all, if killing

> animals hurts the hearts, minds and souls of SOME of us

> humans, doesn't that mean finding alternative foods is

> actually helping humans. Second of all, isn't looking at

> others as " less than " and unfeeling, whether those others

> are human or not how the holocaust began? Isn't this animal

> holocaust?

>

> I also don't know if you have looked into how much land it

> takes to raise beef vs soy and other crops. Statistics have

> shown (and I'll get the studies if you haven't already read

> them,) that it takes many, many more acreage for cattle.

> This same book said that if we used this land for soy, there

> would be no human starvation. Basically, we eat meat

> because we want to, not because we have to. (I'm sorry if

> I'm you guys already know this, I am VERY new.)

>

> Living in this rural area, I have noticed that there is a

> high incidence of family violence. I'd like to know if

> anyone has studied the relation between being unsympathetic

> to fellow sentient beings leads to callousness towards

> humans. If so, then eating meat is harmful to the safety of

> humans. Ok, huge leap there, but I'm just talking because

> being vegetarian in a culture that worships beef, rodeos and

> shootin' hogs is tough. I here horror stories every day. I

> see horror stories. I pass trailers full of cattle going to

> auction several days a week.

>

> Instead of finding it hard to stick with vegetarianism here,

> every time I pass a trailer and an old cow looks at me

> without an eye in her socket and blood dripping down her

> face (which happened) I say a prayer to her and tell her I

> will stand firm. I know she is dead, but maybe I can save

> her children.

>

> In the literature I received from one of the vegetarian

> socieites it said that if I don't eat meat, I save up to 90

> cows a year. I think that is good for one person. I feel

> that I've helped.

>

> Sorry to ramble. Sorry to rant. Living in cattle country

> is lonely when you love animals.

>

> Hope I haven't offended anyone.

>

> > Hi,

> >

> > I got the comment again yesterday from my supervisor

> > (when I told her that I didn't go to Panda Express anymore

> > because they do not serve vegetarian dishes as even the

> > vegetables have a little bit of beef stuff in them, she

> > said, " why do you want them to be like you? " and " have you

> > ever been really hungry and have had no food? " ) She scoffs

> > at me whenever the issue comes up in any way. Two other

> > coworkers are sometimes teasing me, one more in a nice way

> > , the other is more like a snake, she bites for a second

> > and then retreats.

> > I have a question: when I was at my stepdaughters house

> > last Sunday, she brought up that they would like to go to

> > the beach soon and my husband said that then we could all

> > go to the crab shack. I don't eat any meat anymore and I

> > don't think it's really considerate but then, I don't have

> > the right to hold them back either so that I am thinking

> > either I'll go with them and hope they have a salad at the

> > restaurant or I just stay at the beach while they go. This

> > is more difficult than I thought!! But that's ok, anything

> > for the animals!!

> > Thank you for mentioning Jo Stepaniak's book, I bought

> > it last night and already am half ways through! I got even

> > more shocking information about the baby calves. Has

> > anybody ever read Gary Francione? He is very good,too,

> > same philosophy as Jo.The only difference is that he would

> > not accept living with a meat eater or anybody who uses

> > any animal products. He stands his ground very firmly.

> > Barbara, wow, you have a turtle club?? I have two water

> > turtles, both rescued (I had never planned on having

> > turtles but it just happened lol), one Penninsula cooter

> > and one red eared slider. I ave them right now in a big

> > acquarium but I would like to learn how I can make their

> > environment even more adapted to their natural needs (in

> > the acqarium, they have a platform to clinb on, a

> > waterfall pump, and UV and basking lamps and pebbles),

> > especially when they get bigger (they're about 2 years old

> > now).My husband found one of them, Emmitt, on the asphalt

> > of the apartment complex we were living in at that time in

> > georgia, the other was given to me by a former coworker,

> > Emma was in pretty bad shape with a hole in her upper

> > shell that has in the meantime healed. Any epxert

> > siggestion would be very truly appreciated! What do you

> > recommend feeding them especially when they get bigger?

> > Could I join the turtle club?

> > I am thinking about maybe doing a layover there in

> > Dallas when I go to Germany this year, at the end of

> > Augsut, maybe you'll have an event going that I could

> > attend then?

> >

> > I am glad to be part of such a great group!

> >

> > Cheyenne

> >

> > Barbara <urbanveggie wrote:

> > Hi

> > your welcome. I really like Julia's responce and her point

> > about the 5 griev stages. SHe just speaks my mind.

> > I also get those comments that there are so many

> > people/kids suffering and how can I overlooked or even

> > prefer the animals over my own specie so to say.

> > Well, I usualy and politely ask what child-human issues

> > are they involved and how can I help them to support their

> > issue. Most of the time it catches the people off guard,

> > because those who accuse don't do much. It basicaly

> > supports the point of mine that there is just too many

> > issues in the world and as a big picture it becomes very

> > overwhelming so dealing with it on individual basis help

> > me to cope with it. My point is: at least I CHOSE one and

> > so something about it. I don't eat meat and this helps the

> > farm issues and environment (which actualy does help

> > people in a very direct manner LOL) etc. My biggest

> > passion are turtles so I am involved in that. I am member

> > of several organizations and rescues and I also created

> > local DFW Turtle and Tortoise Club so there is a place

> > people can ask questions about their chelonians and find a

> > better care options for them. I also occasionaly pick up a

> > dog or cat and find them home or drive them in a shelter

> > :-)

> >

> > I really liked the Being Vegan book by her the best

> > beacuse it aproaches all our questions and issues in very

> > direct and simple explanatory way even me as

> > english-scond-language-speaker can understand AND apply.

> > I am reading now (among other books) Erin Pavlina's book

> > on Raising vegan Children in a non-vegan world and it's

> > has also excelent point which can be applied not only for

> > children. I find most of these books in 1/2 price

> > bookstore so check one if you have one near you.

> >

> > It seems that you guys started some fun conversation so I

> > have to go read rest of your posts ;-)

> > Barbara

> >

> > ,

> > Christine Bradley <chaag62@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi Barbara,

> > >

> > > Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem with

> > my husband is that he IS educated about these issues :-( I

> > think he is also trying to get me to care more about

> > people issues than animal issues (never mind the fact that

> > by fighting for the animals, one also fights for people).

> > > I went to Stepaniak's website, i like it a lot. I also

> > went to Borders bookstore and browsed through her book, I

> > might get it. Another one I really like and it's about

> > animal rights and veganism is by Gary Francione " Intro to

> > Animal Rights " , he is brilliant (he is a law professor at

> > Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been teaching

> > > animal rights there), his website is

> > > www.animal-rights.org Pleased let me know what you

> > > think! Cheyenne

> > >

> > > Barbara <urbanveggie@> wrote:

> > > Hi Cheyenne,

> > > Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we progress

> > > in different pace than our spouses and family and we

> > > have to be exceptionaly patient. Think, that they just

> > > do not know better and they have to get educated as you

> > > did, but on their own terms and pace. It cannot be

> > > forced. I am married and we have a small 17 month old

> > > girl. My daughter and I are fully vegetarian in

> > > transition to veganism and my hubby is well on the way

> > and very supportive, but there are always those questions

> > > from other members of our families and friends.

> > > I read several books and I found this one the best

> > > aprochaing those issues like yours:

> > > Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniak

> > >

> >

> http://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-

Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8175780-1905533?

ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1

> > > It's an awesome and it very simply explains and comforts

> > > on how to deal with all those questions.

> > > If you have children I can dig out some more I am

> > > recently reading.

> > > Hope this helped

> > > Good luck and dont get discouraged, there are more

> > > people like us that we think :-)

> > >

> > > Barbara

> > > www.veggiechild.com

> > >

> > > ,

> > > " cheyenne " <chaag62@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hello,

> > > > I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for

> > > > inviting me. I have just recently become vegan and

> > > > it's creating some problems. As I feel pretty alone

> > > > in this, would it be possible to create a discussion

> > about the issue of how to deal with meat eaters, with your

> > > > spouse being one and about how vegetarians feel when

> > they see people eat meat?

> > > > I am very frustrated because where I live (Riverside

> > which is a medium

> > > > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or

> > anything like this, and

> > > > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and

> > > > only 1 vegan (and he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor of

> > > > ours. I think I understand why he is so reclusive).

> > > > I don't have anybody to talk about this in my

> > > > immediate family. My husband gets annoyed because he

> > > > finds it " boring " (I admit i got mad today and said,

> > > > " o you find the suffering of animals for food

> > boring " ...its pretty much silence ever since, he jumped

> > out of the car

> > > > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a big

> > > > piece of ham).

> > > > Cheyenne

> > > >

> > >

> > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.

> > > Try the free Mail Beta.

> > >

> >

> > Need Mail bonding?

> > Go to the Mail Q & A for great tips from

> > Answers users.

>

March 22, 2007

Oh good. I was hoping I didn't sound preachy. I want to

share some of what I've actually seen here that needs to be

changed.

I appreciate the welcome. I'm glad you started this group.

Hi all!!!

Glad I've got veggie friends!

> Hi Karen-

>

> This is ABSOLUTELY on-topic, and very insightful. Again,

> welcome to the group.

>

> , " Karen

> Kraft " <wolfsoul wrote:

> >

> > Hi: I'm very new to this group and hope I'm not going

> > off topic. It seems to me that you are dealing with

> > some aggression from people over your convictions. I

> > also don't know which of you are rural, but I am. I am

> > also part Native American. I think that gives me a

> > different perspective.

> >

> > In response to people who think respecting and being

> > " for " animals is anti-human, let me repeat something my

> > Grandfather and many Grandfathers have told me.

> >

> > The world and the animals can live quite nicely without

> > humans; literally. They existed for millions of years

> > and thrived. They animals kept the world in perfect

> > balance. Man, on the other hand, can not survive

> > without the animals for the animals tame the world. Ask

> > your friends to think about this: " if you take man out

> > of the world, the animals will survive for millions more

> > years. If you take animals out of the world, man will

> > perish quickly. "

> > Also, I was driving by a rural farmer's farm when they

> > were " harvesting " veal calves. They were kicking the

> > calves and laughing. The calves that could walk ran to

> > the end of their chains only to be met with sticks and

> > more laughter. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

> >

> > When they unchained the animals, the calves looked

> > surprised at their sudden freedom. They did not

> > overcome their surprise in time to run, but instead were

> > grabbed by their hair and thrown into the back of a

> > gooseneck trailer. Some were grabbed by their legs and

> > thrown. They were tossed like garbage bags and landed

> > on top of each other like so much waste. I saw their

> > legs breaking. I heard their screams. They were

> > innocent babies and I stopped my van and got out

> > screaming " how can you do that to them, how can you do

> > that to them? They're not trash. "

> > The men kept throwing them. MY suffering as another

> > human watching the suffering of animals didn't matter to

> > them. So I screamed louder. Finally, the foreman came

> > up to me laughing and asked me what I'd said. I told

> > him and he laughed and laughed. " They are not animals,

> > they are product. "

> >

> > I propose to ask several things. First of all, if

> > killing animals hurts the hearts, minds and souls of

> > SOME of us humans, doesn't that mean finding alternative

> > foods is actually helping humans. Second of all, isn't

> > looking at others as " less than " and unfeeling, whether

> > those others are human or not how the holocaust began?

> > Isn't this animal holocaust?

> >

> > I also don't know if you have looked into how much land

> > it takes to raise beef vs soy and other crops.

> > Statistics have shown (and I'll get the studies if you

> > haven't already read them,) that it takes many, many

> > more acreage for cattle. This same book said that if we

> > used this land for soy, there would be no human

> > starvation. Basically, we eat meat because we want to,

> > not because we have to. (I'm sorry if I'm you guys

> > already know this, I am VERY new.)

> > Living in this rural area, I have noticed that there is

> > a high incidence of family violence. I'd like to know

> > if anyone has studied the relation between being

> > unsympathetic to fellow sentient beings leads to

> > callousness towards humans. If so, then eating meat is

> > harmful to the safety of humans. Ok, huge leap there,

> > but I'm just talking because being vegetarian in a

> > culture that worships beef, rodeos and shootin' hogs is

> > tough. I here horror stories every day. I see horror

> > stories. I pass trailers full of cattle going to

> > auction several days a week.

> > Instead of finding it hard to stick with vegetarianism

> > here, every time I pass a trailer and an old cow looks

> > at me without an eye in her socket and blood dripping

> > down her face (which happened) I say a prayer to her and

> > tell her I will stand firm. I know she is dead, but

> > maybe I can save her children.

> >

> > In the literature I received from one of the vegetarian

> > socieites it said that if I don't eat meat, I save up to

> > 90 cows a year. I think that is good for one person. I

> > feel that I've helped.

> >

> > Sorry to ramble. Sorry to rant. Living in cattle

> > country is lonely when you love animals.

> >

> > Hope I haven't offended anyone.

> >

> > > Hi,

> > >

> > > I got the comment again yesterday from my supervisor

> > > (when I told her that I didn't go to Panda Express

> > > anymore because they do not serve vegetarian dishes as

> > > even the vegetables have a little bit of beef stuff in

> > > them, she said, " why do you want them to be like you? "

> > > and " have you ever been really hungry and have had no

> > > food? " ) She scoffs at me whenever the issue comes up

> > > in any way. Two other coworkers are sometimes teasing

> > > me, one more in a nice way , the other is more like a

> > > snake, she bites for a second and then retreats.

> > > I have a question: when I was at my stepdaughters

> > > house last Sunday, she brought up that they would like

> > > to go to the beach soon and my husband said that then

> > > we could all go to the crab shack. I don't eat any

> > > meat anymore and I don't think it's really considerate

> > > but then, I don't have the right to hold them back

> > > either so that I am thinking either I'll go with them

> > > and hope they have a salad at the restaurant or I just

> > > stay at the beach while they go. This is more

> > > difficult than I thought!! But that's ok, anything for

> > > the animals!! Thank you for mentioning Jo

> > > Stepaniak's book, I bought it last night and already

> > > am half ways through! I got even more shocking

> > > information about the baby calves. Has anybody ever

> > > read Gary Francione? He is very good,too, same

> > > philosophy as Jo.The only difference is that he would

> > > not accept living with a meat eater or anybody who

> uses any animal products. He stands his ground very

> > > firmly. Barbara, wow, you have a turtle club?? I

> > > have two water turtles, both rescued (I had never

> > > planned on having turtles but it just happened lol),

> > > one Penninsula cooter and one red eared slider. I ave

> > > them right now in a big acquarium but I would like to

> > > learn how I can make their environment even more

> > > adapted to their natural needs (in the acqarium, they

> > > have a platform to clinb on, a waterfall pump, and UV

> > > and basking lamps and pebbles), especially when they

> > > get bigger (they're about 2 years old now).My husband

> > > found one of them, Emmitt, on the asphalt of the

> > > apartment complex we were living in at that time in

> > > georgia, the other was given to me by a former

> coworker, Emma was in pretty bad shape with a hole in her

> > > upper shell that has in the meantime healed. Any

> > > epxert siggestion would be very truly appreciated!

> > > What do you recommend feeding them especially when

> > > they get bigger? Could I join the turtle club?

> > > I am thinking about maybe doing a layover there in

> > > Dallas when I go to Germany this year, at the end of

> > > Augsut, maybe you'll have an event going that I could

> > > attend then?

> > >

> > > I am glad to be part of such a great group!

> > >

> > > Cheyenne

> > >

> > > Barbara <urbanveggie wrote:

> > > Hi

> > > your welcome. I really like Julia's responce and her

> > > point about the 5 griev stages. SHe just speaks my

> > > mind. I also get those comments that there are so

> > > many people/kids suffering and how can I overlooked or

> > > even prefer the animals over my own specie so to say.

> > > Well, I usualy and politely ask what child-human

> > > issues are they involved and how can I help them to

> > > support their issue. Most of the time it catches the

> > > people off guard, because those who accuse don't do

> > > much. It basicaly supports the point of mine that

> > > there is just too many issues in the world and as a

> > > big picture it becomes very overwhelming so dealing

> > > with it on individual basis help me to cope with it.

> > > My point is: at least I CHOSE one and so something

> > > about it. I don't eat meat and this helps the farm

> > > issues and environment (which actualy does help people

> > > in a very direct manner LOL) etc. My biggest passion

> > > are turtles so I am involved in that. I am member of

> > > several organizations and rescues and I also created

> > > local DFW Turtle and Tortoise Club so there is a place

> > > people can ask questions about their chelonians and

> find a better care options for them. I also occasionaly

> > > pick up a dog or cat and find them home or drive them

> > > in a shelter :-)

> > >

> > > I really liked the Being Vegan book by her the best

> > > beacuse it aproaches all our questions and issues in

> > > very direct and simple explanatory way even me as

> > > english-scond-language-speaker can understand AND

> > > apply. I am reading now (among other books) Erin

> > > Pavlina's book on Raising vegan Children in a

> > > non-vegan world and it's has also excelent point

> > > which can be applied not only for children. I find

> > > most of these books in 1/2 price bookstore so check

> > > one if you have one near you.

> > > It seems that you guys started some fun conversation

> > > so I have to go read rest of your posts ;-)

> > > Barbara

> > >

> > > ,

> > > Christine Bradley <chaag62@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Hi Barbara,

> > > >

> > > > Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem

> > > with my husband is that he IS educated about these

> > > issues :-( I think he is also trying to get me to care

> > > more about people issues than animal issues (never

> > > mind the fact that by fighting for the animals, one

> > > > also fights for people). I went to Stepaniak's

> > > website, i like it a lot. I also went to Borders

> > > bookstore and browsed through her book, I might get

> > > it. Another one I really like and it's about animal

> > > rights and veganism is by Gary Francione " Intro to

> > > Animal Rights " , he is brilliant (he is a law professor

> > > > at Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been

> > > > teaching animal rights there), his website is

> > > > www.animal-rights.org Pleased let me know what you

> > > > think! Cheyenne

> > > > Barbara <urbanveggie@> wrote:

> > > > Hi Cheyenne,

> > > > Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we

> > > > progress in different pace than our spouses and

> > > > family and we have to be exceptionaly patient. Think

> > > > , that they just do not know better and they have to

> > > > get educated as you did, but on their own terms and

> > > > pace. It cannot be forced. I am married and we have

> > > > a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and I are

> > > > fully vegetarian in transition to veganism and my

> > > hubby is well on the way and very supportive, but

> > > > there are always those questions from other members

> > > > of our families and friends. I read several books

> > > > and I found this one the best aprochaing those

> > > > issues like yours: Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniak

> > > >

> > >

> > http://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-

> Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8175780-190553

> 3? ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1

> > > > It's an awesome and it very simply explains and

> > > > comforts on how to deal with all those questions.

> > > > If you have children I can dig out some more I am

> > > > recently reading.

> > > > Hope this helped

> > > > Good luck and dont get discouraged, there are more

> > > > people like us that we think :-)

> > > >

> > > > Barbara

> > > > www.veggiechild.com

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > > " cheyenne " <chaag62@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hello,

> > > > > I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for

> > > > > inviting me. I have just recently become vegan

> > > > > and it's creating some problems. As I feel pretty

> > > > > alone in this, would it be possible to create a

> > > discussion about the issue of how to deal with meat

> > > > > eaters, with your spouse being one and about how

> > > vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?

> > > > > I am very frustrated because where I live

> > > (Riverside which is a medium

> > > > > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or

> > > anything like this, and

> > > > > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and

> > > > > only 1 vegan (and he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor

> > > > > of ours. I think I understand why he is so

> > > > > reclusive). I don't have anybody to talk about

> > > > > this in my immediate family. My husband gets

> > > > > annoyed because he finds it " boring " (I admit i

> > > > > got mad today and said, " o you find the suffering

> > > of animals for food boring " ...its pretty much silence

> > > ever since, he jumped out of the car

> > > > > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a

> > > > > big piece of ham).

> > > > > Cheyenne

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.

> > > > Try the free Mail Beta.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Need Mail bonding?

> > > Go to the Mail Q & A for great tips from

> > > Answers users.

> >

>

March 22, 2007

Hi Karen, and welcome!

I have been following this discussion and it's great to talk to other

people who go vegan mainly for the animals. When I first met Julia,

she told me about the first few months being the hardest and making

you very angry at people who eat meat, mainly the people you try

to " enlighten " who just don't care. I'm 10 months into it; changing

the food was no prob after learning about factory farming -

overnight. I think the 5 stages of grief is a really good analogy,

brilliant.

I never have one time missed ANY animal product since I stopped. If

I even see or smell it, the movie meetyourmeat.com pops in and stops

it in its tracks. I have conditioned myself to actually become

nauseous when I smell meat.

I was born into farming Angus and pork (till I was 12). I was very

young then and exposed to branding, castrating with no pain relief,

etc. It didn't seem so wrong because I didn't know anything else,

but there was a part of me that felt very bad for them. I always

cried when they took the calves and pigs away - they were my

friends. Now, I can't even read about it. Your story made me cry so

much I couldn't finish it.

Whether the animal " welfare " people get their way of " humane

slaughter " WTF???, it's still a cruel and heinous way of treating

animals ad it's WRONG! There are always sicko workers who abuse for

the fun of it like you said.

I'm lucky, my husband has been really great about it, but no one else

in my family (or his) will even let me tell them what happens - it's

the ol' " I don't want to know " or " ignorance is bliss " . It pisses me

off because they KNOW it's WRONG, and they're paying to continue the

abuse. Hypocrites. I cannot abide people who wish to remain

ignorant on anything when there is something they can do to make it

better. People like my parents are the worst; they care nothing

about the environment, the animals (but they won't eat veal because

it's cruel????) or their own health.

You can come here and vent and we'll all understand, only too well,

unfortunately. I am so glad to hear another meat eater takes profits

from the torture/murder for profit business!

Here's the way I see it: Man tortures and kills animals for his

vanity, then the animals kill him with heart disease, high blood

pressure, strokes, heart attacks, diabetes. It's poetic justice.

Thanks for sharing, Karen.

Shannon

, " Karen Kraft "

<wolfsoul wrote:

>

> Oh good. I was hoping I didn't sound preachy. I want to

> share some of what I've actually seen here that needs to be

> changed.

>

> I appreciate the welcome. I'm glad you started this group.

> Hi all!!!

>

> Glad I've got veggie friends!

> > Hi Karen-

> >

> > This is ABSOLUTELY on-topic, and very insightful. Again,

> > welcome to the group.

> >

> > , " Karen

> > Kraft " <wolfsoul@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Hi: I'm very new to this group and hope I'm not going

> > > off topic. It seems to me that you are dealing with

> > > some aggression from people over your convictions. I

> > > also don't know which of you are rural, but I am. I am

> > > also part Native American. I think that gives me a

> > > different perspective.

> > >

> > > In response to people who think respecting and being

> > > " for " animals is anti-human, let me repeat something my

> > > Grandfather and many Grandfathers have told me.

> > >

> > > The world and the animals can live quite nicely without

> > > humans; literally. They existed for millions of years

> > > and thrived. They animals kept the world in perfect

> > > balance. Man, on the other hand, can not survive

> > > without the animals for the animals tame the world. Ask

> > > your friends to think about this: " if you take man out

> > > of the world, the animals will survive for millions more

> > > years. If you take animals out of the world, man will

> > > perish quickly. "

> > > Also, I was driving by a rural farmer's farm when they

> > > were " harvesting " veal calves. They were kicking the

> > > calves and laughing. The calves that could walk ran to

> > > the end of their chains only to be met with sticks and

> > > more laughter. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.

> > >

> > > When they unchained the animals, the calves looked

> > > surprised at their sudden freedom. They did not

> > > overcome their surprise in time to run, but instead were

> > > grabbed by their hair and thrown into the back of a

> > > gooseneck trailer. Some were grabbed by their legs and

> > > thrown. They were tossed like garbage bags and landed

> > > on top of each other like so much waste. I saw their

> > > legs breaking. I heard their screams. They were

> > > innocent babies and I stopped my van and got out

> > > screaming " how can you do that to them, how can you do

> > > that to them? They're not trash. "

> > > The men kept throwing them. MY suffering as another

> > > human watching the suffering of animals didn't matter to

> > > them. So I screamed louder. Finally, the foreman came

> > > up to me laughing and asked me what I'd said. I told

> > > him and he laughed and laughed. " They are not animals,

> > > they are product. "

> > >

> > > I propose to ask several things. First of all, if

> > > killing animals hurts the hearts, minds and souls of

> > > SOME of us humans, doesn't that mean finding alternative

> > > foods is actually helping humans. Second of all, isn't

> > > looking at others as " less than " and unfeeling, whether

> > > those others are human or not how the holocaust began?

> > > Isn't this animal holocaust?

> > >

> > > I also don't know if you have looked into how much land

> > > it takes to raise beef vs soy and other crops.

> > > Statistics have shown (and I'll get the studies if you

> > > haven't already read them,) that it takes many, many

> > > more acreage for cattle. This same book said that if we

> > > used this land for soy, there would be no human

> > > starvation. Basically, we eat meat because we want to,

> > > not because we have to. (I'm sorry if I'm you guys

> > > already know this, I am VERY new.)

> > > Living in this rural area, I have noticed that there is

> > > a high incidence of family violence. I'd like to know

> > > if anyone has studied the relation between being

> > > unsympathetic to fellow sentient beings leads to

> > > callousness towards humans. If so, then eating meat is

> > > harmful to the safety of humans. Ok, huge leap there,

> > > but I'm just talking because being vegetarian in a

> > > culture that worships beef, rodeos and shootin' hogs is

> > > tough. I here horror stories every day. I see horror

> > > stories. I pass trailers full of cattle going to

> > > auction several days a week.

> > > Instead of finding it hard to stick with vegetarianism

> > > here, every time I pass a trailer and an old cow looks

> > > at me without an eye in her socket and blood dripping

> > > down her face (which happened) I say a prayer to her and

> > > tell her I will stand firm. I know she is dead, but

> > > maybe I can save her children.

> > >

> > > In the literature I received from one of the vegetarian

> > > socieites it said that if I don't eat meat, I save up to

> > > 90 cows a year. I think that is good for one person. I

> > > feel that I've helped.

> > >

> > > Sorry to ramble. Sorry to rant. Living in cattle

> > > country is lonely when you love animals.

> > >

> > > Hope I haven't offended anyone.

> > >

> > > > Hi,

> > > >

> > > > I got the comment again yesterday from my supervisor

> > > > (when I told her that I didn't go to Panda Express

> > > > anymore because they do not serve vegetarian dishes as

> > > > even the vegetables have a little bit of beef stuff in

> > > > them, she said, " why do you want them to be like you? "

> > > > and " have you ever been really hungry and have had no

> > > > food? " ) She scoffs at me whenever the issue comes up

> > > > in any way. Two other coworkers are sometimes teasing

> > > > me, one more in a nice way , the other is more like a

> > > > snake, she bites for a second and then retreats.

> > > > I have a question: when I was at my stepdaughters

> > > > house last Sunday, she brought up that they would like

> > > > to go to the beach soon and my husband said that then

> > > > we could all go to the crab shack. I don't eat any

> > > > meat anymore and I don't think it's really considerate

> > > > but then, I don't have the right to hold them back

> > > > either so that I am thinking either I'll go with them

> > > > and hope they have a salad at the restaurant or I just

> > > > stay at the beach while they go. This is more

> > > > difficult than I thought!! But that's ok, anything for

> > > > the animals!! Thank you for mentioning Jo

> > > > Stepaniak's book, I bought it last night and already

> > > > am half ways through! I got even more shocking

> > > > information about the baby calves. Has anybody ever

> > > > read Gary Francione? He is very good,too, same

> > > > philosophy as Jo.The only difference is that he would

> > > > not accept living with a meat eater or anybody who

> > uses any animal products. He stands his ground very

> > > > firmly. Barbara, wow, you have a turtle club?? I

> > > > have two water turtles, both rescued (I had never

> > > > planned on having turtles but it just happened lol),

> > > > one Penninsula cooter and one red eared slider. I ave

> > > > them right now in a big acquarium but I would like to

> > > > learn how I can make their environment even more

> > > > adapted to their natural needs (in the acqarium, they

> > > > have a platform to clinb on, a waterfall pump, and UV

> > > > and basking lamps and pebbles), especially when they

> > > > get bigger (they're about 2 years old now).My husband

> > > > found one of them, Emmitt, on the asphalt of the

> > > > apartment complex we were living in at that time in

> > > > georgia, the other was given to me by a former

> > coworker, Emma was in pretty bad shape with a hole in her

> > > > upper shell that has in the meantime healed. Any

> > > > epxert siggestion would be very truly appreciated!

> > > > What do you recommend feeding them especially when

> > > > they get bigger? Could I join the turtle club?

> > > > I am thinking about maybe doing a layover there in

> > > > Dallas when I go to Germany this year, at the end of

> > > > Augsut, maybe you'll have an event going that I could

> > > > attend then?

> > > >

> > > > I am glad to be part of such a great group!

> > > >

> > > > Cheyenne

> > > >

> > > > Barbara <urbanveggie@> wrote:

> > > > Hi

> > > > your welcome. I really like Julia's responce and her

> > > > point about the 5 griev stages. SHe just speaks my

> > > > mind. I also get those comments that there are so

> > > > many people/kids suffering and how can I overlooked or

> > > > even prefer the animals over my own specie so to say.

> > > > Well, I usualy and politely ask what child-human

> > > > issues are they involved and how can I help them to

> > > > support their issue. Most of the time it catches the

> > > > people off guard, because those who accuse don't do

> > > > much. It basicaly supports the point of mine that

> > > > there is just too many issues in the world and as a

> > > > big picture it becomes very overwhelming so dealing

> > > > with it on individual basis help me to cope with it.

> > > > My point is: at least I CHOSE one and so something

> > > > about it. I don't eat meat and this helps the farm

> > > > issues and environment (which actualy does help people

> > > > in a very direct manner LOL) etc. My biggest passion

> > > > are turtles so I am involved in that. I am member of

> > > > several organizations and rescues and I also created

> > > > local DFW Turtle and Tortoise Club so there is a place

> > > > people can ask questions about their chelonians and

> > find a better care options for them. I also occasionaly

> > > > pick up a dog or cat and find them home or drive them

> > > > in a shelter :-)

> > > >

> > > > I really liked the Being Vegan book by her the best

> > > > beacuse it aproaches all our questions and issues in

> > > > very direct and simple explanatory way even me as

> > > > english-scond-language-speaker can understand AND

> > > > apply. I am reading now (among other books) Erin

> > > > Pavlina's book on Raising vegan Children in a

> > > > non-vegan world and it's has also excelent point

> > > > which can be applied not only for children. I find

> > > > most of these books in 1/2 price bookstore so check

> > > > one if you have one near you.

> > > > It seems that you guys started some fun conversation

> > > > so I have to go read rest of your posts ;-)

> > > > Barbara

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > > > Christine Bradley <chaag62@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Hi Barbara,

> > > > >

> > > > > Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem

> > > > with my husband is that he IS educated about these

> > > > issues :-( I think he is also trying to get me to care

> > > > more about people issues than animal issues (never

> > > > mind the fact that by fighting for the animals, one

> > > > > also fights for people). I went to Stepaniak's

> > > > website, i like it a lot. I also went to Borders

> > > > bookstore and browsed through her book, I might get

> > > > it. Another one I really like and it's about animal

> > > > rights and veganism is by Gary Francione " Intro to

> > > > Animal Rights " , he is brilliant (he is a law professor

> > > > > at Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been

> > > > > teaching animal rights there), his website is

> > > > > www.animal-rights.org Pleased let me know what you

> > > > > think! Cheyenne

> > > > > Barbara <urbanveggie@> wrote:

> > > > > Hi Cheyenne,

> > > > > Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we

> > > > > progress in different pace than our spouses and

> > > > > family and we have to be exceptionaly patient. Think

> > > > > , that they just do not know better and they have to

> > > > > get educated as you did, but on their own terms and

> > > > > pace. It cannot be forced. I am married and we have

> > > > > a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and I are

> > > > > fully vegetarian in transition to veganism and my

> > > > hubby is well on the way and very supportive, but

> > > > > there are always those questions from other members

> > > > > of our families and friends. I read several books

> > > > > and I found this one the best aprochaing those

> > > > > issues like yours: Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniak

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > http://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-

> > Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8175780-190553

> > 3? ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1

> > > > > It's an awesome and it very simply explains and

> > > > > comforts on how to deal with all those questions.

> > > > > If you have children I can dig out some more I am

> > > > > recently reading.

> > > > > Hope this helped

> > > > > Good luck and dont get discouraged, there are more

> > > > > people like us that we think :-)

> > > > >

> > > > > Barbara

> > > > > www.veggiechild.com

> > > > >

> > > > > ,

> > > > > " cheyenne " <chaag62@> wrote:

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Hello,

> > > > > > I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for

> > > > > > inviting me. I have just recently become vegan

> > > > > > and it's creating some problems. As I feel pretty

> > > > > > alone in this, would it be possible to create a

> > > > discussion about the issue of how to deal with meat

> > > > > > eaters, with your spouse being one and about how

> > > > vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?

> > > > > > I am very frustrated because where I live

> > > > (Riverside which is a medium

> > > > > > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or

> > > > anything like this, and

> > > > > > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and

> > > > > > only 1 vegan (and he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor

> > > > > > of ours. I think I understand why he is so

> > > > > > reclusive). I don't have anybody to talk about

> > > > > > this in my immediate family. My husband gets

> > > > > > annoyed because he finds it " boring " (I admit i

> > > > > > got mad today and said, " o you find the suffering

> > > > of animals for food boring " ...its pretty much silence

> > > > ever since, he jumped out of the car

> > > > > > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a

> > > > > > big piece of ham).

> > > > > > Cheyenne

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.

> > > > > Try the free Mail Beta.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Need Mail bonding?

> > > > Go to the Mail Q & A for great tips from

> > > > Answers users.

> > >

> >

>

March 23, 2007

Hi Shannon, The first few months are indeed the hardest, especially when there is resistance from family and friends and they view one as being extremist. I do not miss meat, and the smell by now is nauseating. In re animal welfarists, they got a lot of things wrong. They are not animal rights activists (which in my view makes Peta, HSUS and the others sell outs because they do cave in to the pressure of those who want to keep exploiting so that these organizations go along with "improvement of humane treatment of animals and humane slaughter". Humane slaughter is an oxymororn just as the "war on terror" is. I am, however, not disregarding the few good things they did achieve).. By implementing "humane" options, they actually increase the suffering and number of animals exploited simply by reinforcing their status as property and making people feel better about them exploiting animals in a more "humane" fashion. And

of course, there are always people who find enjoyment in abusing animals which is rampant in every sector of animal exploitation. Grassroots organizations are undiluted organizations and therefore are the strongest voices for the animals. I love Gary Francione's statement: If I agree that inflicting unnecessary suffering on an animal is wrong, and yet I eat meat, wear fur, exploit them in experiments, in circuses, zoos etc, then this is what can be called a "moral schizophrenia". Now I hope, I am not too preachy oops Cheyenne shannonmorgan36 <shannonmorgan36 wrote: Hi Karen, and welcome!I have been following this discussion and it's great to talk to other people who go vegan mainly for the animals. When I first met Julia, she told me about the first few months being the hardest and making you very angry at people who eat meat, mainly the people you try to "enlighten" who just don't care. I'm 10 months into it; changing the food was no prob after learning about factory farming - overnight. I think the 5 stages of grief is a really good analogy, brilliant.I never have one time missed ANY animal product since I stopped. If I even see or smell it, the movie meetyourmeat.com pops in and stops it in its tracks. I have conditioned myself to actually become nauseous when I smell meat.I was born into farming Angus and pork (till I was

12). I was very young then and exposed to branding, castrating with no pain relief, etc. It didn't seem so wrong because I didn't know anything else, but there was a part of me that felt very bad for them. I always cried when they took the calves and pigs away - they were my friends. Now, I can't even read about it. Your story made me cry so much I couldn't finish it. Whether the animal "welfare" people get their way of "humane slaughter" WTF???, it's still a cruel and heinous way of treating animals ad it's WRONG! There are always sicko workers who abuse for the fun of it like you said.I'm lucky, my husband has been really great about it, but no one else in my family (or his) will even let me tell them what happens - it's the ol' "I don't want to know" or "ignorance is bliss". It pisses me off because they KNOW it's WRONG, and they're paying to continue the abuse. Hypocrites. I cannot abide people who

wish to remain ignorant on anything when there is something they can do to make it better. People like my parents are the worst; they care nothing about the environment, the animals (but they won't eat veal because it's cruel????) or their own health. You can come here and vent and we'll all understand, only too well, unfortunately. I am so glad to hear another meat eater takes profits from the torture/murder for profit business! Here's the way I see it: Man tortures and kills animals for his vanity, then the animals kill him with heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes, heart attacks, diabetes. It's poetic justice.Thanks for sharing, Karen.Shannon , "Karen Kraft" <wolfsoul wrote:>> Oh good. I was hoping I didn't sound preachy. I want to>

share some of what I've actually seen here that needs to be> changed. > > I appreciate the welcome. I'm glad you started this group. > Hi all!!!> > Glad I've got veggie friends!> > Hi Karen-> > > > This is ABSOLUTELY on-topic, and very insightful. Again,> > welcome to the group.> > > > , "Karen> > Kraft" <wolfsoul@> wrote:> > >> > > Hi: I'm very new to this group and hope I'm not going> > > off topic. It seems to me that you are dealing with> > > some aggression from people over your convictions. I> > > also don't know which of you are rural, but I am. I am> > > also part Native American. I think that gives me a> > > different perspective.

> > > > > > In response to people who think respecting and being> > > "for" animals is anti-human, let me repeat something my> > > Grandfather and many Grandfathers have told me. > > > > > > The world and the animals can live quite nicely without> > > humans; literally. They existed for millions of years> > > and thrived. They animals kept the world in perfect> > > balance. Man, on the other hand, can not survive> > > without the animals for the animals tame the world. Ask> > > your friends to think about this: "if you take man out> > > of the world, the animals will survive for millions more> > > years. If you take animals out of the world, man will> > > perish quickly." > > > Also, I was driving by a rural farmer's farm when they> > > were "harvesting" veal calves.

They were kicking the> > > calves and laughing. The calves that could walk ran to> > > the end of their chains only to be met with sticks and> > > more laughter. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.> > > > > > When they unchained the animals, the calves looked> > > surprised at their sudden freedom. They did not> > > overcome their surprise in time to run, but instead were> > > grabbed by their hair and thrown into the back of a> > > gooseneck trailer. Some were grabbed by their legs and> > > thrown. They were tossed like garbage bags and landed> > > on top of each other like so much waste. I saw their> > > legs breaking. I heard their screams. They were> > > innocent babies and I stopped my van and got out> > > screaming "how can you do that to them, how can you do> > > that to

them? They're not trash." > > > The men kept throwing them. MY suffering as another> > > human watching the suffering of animals didn't matter to> > > them. So I screamed louder. Finally, the foreman came> > > up to me laughing and asked me what I'd said. I told> > > him and he laughed and laughed. "They are not animals,> > > they are product."> > > > > > I propose to ask several things. First of all, if> > > killing animals hurts the hearts, minds and souls of> > > SOME of us humans, doesn't that mean finding alternative> > > foods is actually helping humans. Second of all, isn't> > > looking at others as "less than" and unfeeling, whether> > > those others are human or not how the holocaust began? > > > Isn't this animal holocaust?> > > > > > I also don't know if you

have looked into how much land> > > it takes to raise beef vs soy and other crops. > > > Statistics have shown (and I'll get the studies if you> > > haven't already read them,) that it takes many, many> > > more acreage for cattle. This same book said that if we> > > used this land for soy, there would be no human> > > starvation. Basically, we eat meat because we want to,> > > not because we have to. (I'm sorry if I'm you guys> > > already know this, I am VERY new.) > > > Living in this rural area, I have noticed that there is> > > a high incidence of family violence. I'd like to know> > > if anyone has studied the relation between being> > > unsympathetic to fellow sentient beings leads to> > > callousness towards humans. If so, then eating meat is> > > harmful to the safety of humans. Ok,

huge leap there,> > > but I'm just talking because being vegetarian in a> > > culture that worships beef, rodeos and shootin' hogs is> > > tough. I here horror stories every day. I see horror> > > stories. I pass trailers full of cattle going to> > > auction several days a week. > > > Instead of finding it hard to stick with vegetarianism> > > here, every time I pass a trailer and an old cow looks> > > at me without an eye in her socket and blood dripping> > > down her face (which happened) I say a prayer to her and> > > tell her I will stand firm. I know she is dead, but> > > maybe I can save her children. > > > > > > In the literature I received from one of the vegetarian> > > socieites it said that if I don't eat meat, I save up to> > > 90 cows a year. I think that is good for

one person. I> > > feel that I've helped.> > > > > > Sorry to ramble. Sorry to rant. Living in cattle> > > country is lonely when you love animals.> > > > > > Hope I haven't offended anyone.> > > > > > > Hi,> > > > > > > > I got the comment again yesterday from my supervisor> > > > (when I told her that I didn't go to Panda Express> > > > anymore because they do not serve vegetarian dishes as> > > > even the vegetables have a little bit of beef stuff in> > > > them, she said, "why do you want them to be like you?"> > > > and "have you ever been really hungry and have had no> > > > food?") She scoffs at me whenever the issue comes up> > > > in any way. Two other coworkers are sometimes teasing> > > > me, one

more in a nice way , the other is more like a> > > > snake, she bites for a second and then retreats.> > > > I have a question: when I was at my stepdaughters> > > > house last Sunday, she brought up that they would like> > > > to go to the beach soon and my husband said that then> > > > we could all go to the crab shack. I don't eat any> > > > meat anymore and I don't think it's really considerate> > > > but then, I don't have the right to hold them back> > > > either so that I am thinking either I'll go with them> > > > and hope they have a salad at the restaurant or I just> > > > stay at the beach while they go. This is more> > > > difficult than I thought!! But that's ok, anything for> > > > the animals!! Thank you for mentioning Jo> > > > Stepaniak's book, I

bought it last night and already> > > > am half ways through! I got even more shocking> > > > information about the baby calves. Has anybody ever> > > > read Gary Francione? He is very good,too, same> > > > philosophy as Jo.The only difference is that he would> > > > not accept living with a meat eater or anybody who> > uses any animal products. He stands his ground very> > > > firmly. Barbara, wow, you have a turtle club?? I> > > > have two water turtles, both rescued (I had never> > > > planned on having turtles but it just happened lol),> > > > one Penninsula cooter and one red eared slider. I ave> > > > them right now in a big acquarium but I would like to> > > > learn how I can make their environment even more> > > > adapted to their natural needs (in the acqarium,

they> > > > have a platform to clinb on, a waterfall pump, and UV> > > > and basking lamps and pebbles), especially when they> > > > get bigger (they're about 2 years old now).My husband> > > > found one of them, Emmitt, on the asphalt of the> > > > apartment complex we were living in at that time in> > > > georgia, the other was given to me by a former> > coworker, Emma was in pretty bad shape with a hole in her> > > > upper shell that has in the meantime healed. Any> > > > epxert siggestion would be very truly appreciated!> > > > What do you recommend feeding them especially when> > > > they get bigger? Could I join the turtle club?> > > > I am thinking about maybe doing a layover there in> > > > Dallas when I go to Germany this year, at the end of> > > >

Augsut, maybe you'll have an event going that I could> > > > attend then?> > > > > > > > I am glad to be part of such a great group! > > > > > > > > Cheyenne> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara <urbanveggie@> wrote:> > > > Hi > > > > your welcome. I really like Julia's responce and her> > > > point about the 5 griev stages. SHe just speaks my> > > > mind. I also get those comments that there are so> > > > many people/kids suffering and how can I overlooked or> > > > even prefer the animals over my own specie so to say. > > > > Well, I usualy and politely ask what child-human> > > > issues are they involved and how can I help them to> > > > support their issue. Most of the time

it catches the> > > > people off guard, because those who accuse don't do> > > > much. It basicaly supports the point of mine that> > > > there is just too many issues in the world and as a> > > > big picture it becomes very overwhelming so dealing> > > > with it on individual basis help me to cope with it.> > > > My point is: at least I CHOSE one and so something> > > > about it. I don't eat meat and this helps the farm> > > > issues and environment (which actualy does help people> > > > in a very direct manner LOL) etc. My biggest passion> > > > are turtles so I am involved in that. I am member of> > > > several organizations and rescues and I also created> > > > local DFW Turtle and Tortoise Club so there is a place> > > > people can ask questions about their

chelonians and> > find a better care options for them. I also occasionaly> > > > pick up a dog or cat and find them home or drive them> > > > in a shelter :-)> > > > > > > > I really liked the Being Vegan book by her the best> > > > beacuse it aproaches all our questions and issues in> > > > very direct and simple explanatory way even me as> > > > english-scond-language-speaker can understand AND> > > > apply. I am reading now (among other books) Erin> > > > Pavlina's book on Raising vegan Children in a> > > > non-vegan world and it's has also excelent point > > > > which can be applied not only for children. I find> > > > most of these books in 1/2 price bookstore so check> > > > one if you have one near you. > > > > It seems that

you guys started some fun conversation> > > > so I have to go read rest of your posts ;-)> > > > Barbara> > > > > > > > ,> > > > Christine Bradley <chaag62@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Hi Barbara,> > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem> > > > with my husband is that he IS educated about these> > > > issues :-( I think he is also trying to get me to care> > > > more about people issues than animal issues (never> > > > mind the fact that by fighting for the animals, one> > > > > also fights for people). I went to Stepaniak's> > > > website, i like it a lot. I also went

to Borders> > > > bookstore and browsed through her book, I might get> > > > it. Another one I really like and it's about animal> > > > rights and veganism is by Gary Francione "Intro to> > > > Animal Rights", he is brilliant (he is a law professor> > > > > at Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been> > > > > teaching animal rights there), his website is> > > > > www.animal-rights.org Pleased let me know what you> > > > > think! Cheyenne > > > > > Barbara <urbanveggie@> wrote:> > > > > Hi Cheyenne,> > > > > Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we> > > > > progress in different pace than our spouses and> > > > > family and we have to be exceptionaly patient. Think> > > > > , that they just do not

know better and they have to> > > > > get educated as you did, but on their own terms and> > > > > pace. It cannot be forced. I am married and we have> > > > > a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and I are> > > > > fully vegetarian in transition to veganism and my> > > > hubby is well on the way and very supportive, but> > > > > there are always those questions from other members> > > > > of our families and friends. I read several books> > > > > and I found this one the best aprochaing those> > > > > issues like yours: Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniak> > > > >> > > >> > > http://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-> >

Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8175780-190553> > 3? ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1> > > > > It's an awesome and it very simply explains and> > > > > comforts on how to deal with all those questions. > > > > > If you have children I can dig out some more I am> > > > > recently reading. > > > > > Hope this helped> > > > > Good luck and dont get discouraged, there are more> > > > > people like us that we think :-)> > > > > > > > > > Barbara> > > > > www.veggiechild.com> > > > > > > > > > ,> > > > > "cheyenne" <chaag62@>

wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Hello,> > > > > > I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for> > > > > > inviting me. I have just recently become vegan> > > > > > and it's creating some problems. As I feel pretty> > > > > > alone in this, would it be possible to create a> > > > discussion about the issue of how to deal with meat> > > > > > eaters, with your spouse being one and about how> > > > vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?> > > > > > I am very frustrated because where I live> > > > (Riverside which is a medium > > > > > > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or> > > > anything like this, and > > > > > > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and> >

> > > > only 1 vegan (and he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor> > > > > > of ours. I think I understand why he is so> > > > > > reclusive). I don't have anybody to talk about> > > > > > this in my immediate family. My husband gets> > > > > > annoyed because he finds it "boring" (I admit i> > > > > > got mad today and said, "o you find the suffering> > > > of animals for food boring"...its pretty much silence> > > > ever since, he jumped out of the car > > > > > > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a> > > > > > big piece of ham). > > > > > > Cheyenne> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.> > > > > Try the free Mail Beta.> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Need Mail bonding?> > > > Go to the Mail Q & A for great tips from > > > > Answers users.> > >> > > > > >>

Don't pick lemons.

See all the new 2007 cars at Autos.

March 23, 2007

Hi, Cheyenne, I totally understand where you're coming from. All of us AR activists have the same goal: ELIMINATE, not make "more humane" the abuse and use of animals for any reason. Unfortunately, that is never going to happen. People will always eat meat, wear leather, fur, attend animal "entertainment" events, and there will probably always be experimentation in labs. It's really pitiful. But, I definitely would not call PeTA and HSUS sell outs. PeTA has gained a ton of victories, stopping abuse, not just making it less heinous. (I am a member of both, and IDA). They get the most attention, and are very effective in causing boycotts because that's the only way these assholes will stop torturing animals, if it hurts their blood covered money or their reputations. I agree that HSUS is not as zealous as PeTA, but

they are taken more seriously, and not thought of as crazy, so they get things done, too, but more on the welfare end and not so much the elimination of the problem. We just all have to pull together and keep being heard, gettting media attention, getting legislative laws more protective of animals, etc. There has been a MASSIVE amount of accomplishments over the past years, even many this year! Don't get me wrong here, I am NOT an animal "welfare" person. But, any less suffering is better than current situations. It seems that ever since AETA was passed, there has been even more AR activity and more victories. Most of us basically knew that. You don't pick one certain group and take away their rights with threats of prison. It pisses people off, and they will fight harder. I am so glad you're here and helping. I admire your

passion, it mirrors my own. My parents call me a "zealot". Well, being a zealot get results. People who sit on their asses and say "oh how sad" don't get anything done, and they're always the ones who contribute. Now who's preaching???? Thanks for writing, I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you! ShannonChristine Bradley <chaag62 wrote: Hi Shannon, The first few months are indeed the hardest, especially when there is resistance from family and friends and they view one as being extremist. I do not miss meat, and the smell by now is nauseating. In re animal welfarists, they got a lot of things wrong. They are not animal rights activists (which in my view makes Peta, HSUS and the others sell outs because they do cave in to the pressure of those who want to keep exploiting so that these organizations go along with "improvement of humane treatment of animals and humane slaughter". Humane slaughter is an oxymororn just as the "war on terror" is. I am, however, not disregarding the few good things they did achieve).. By implementing "humane" options, they actually increase the suffering and number of animals exploited simply by reinforcing their status as property and making people feel better about them exploiting animals in

a more "humane" fashion. And of course, there are always people who find enjoyment in abusing animals which is rampant in every sector of animal exploitation. Grassroots organizations are undiluted organizations and therefore are the strongest voices for the animals. I love Gary Francione's statement: If I agree that inflicting unnecessary suffering on an animal is wrong, and yet I eat meat, wear fur, exploit them in experiments, in circuses, zoos etc, then this is what can be called a "moral schizophrenia". Now I hope, I am not too preachy oops Cheyenne shannonmorgan36 <shannonmorgan36 > wrote: Hi Karen, and welcome!I have been following this discussion and it's great to talk to other people who go vegan

mainly for the animals. When I first met Julia, she told me about the first few months being the hardest and making you very angry at people who eat meat, mainly the people you try to "enlighten" who just don't care. I'm 10 months into it; changing the food was no prob after learning about factory farming - overnight. I think the 5 stages of grief is a really good analogy, brilliant.I never have one time missed ANY animal product since I stopped. If I even see or smell it, the movie meetyourmeat.com pops in and stops it in its tracks. I have conditioned myself to actually become nauseous when I smell meat.I was born into farming Angus and pork (till I was 12). I was very young then and exposed to branding, castrating with no pain relief, etc. It didn't seem so wrong because I didn't know anything else, but there was a part of me that felt very bad for them. I always cried when they took the calves and

pigs away - they were my friends. Now, I can't even read about it. Your story made me cry so much I couldn't finish it. Whether the animal "welfare" people get their way of "humane slaughter" WTF???, it's still a cruel and heinous way of treating animals ad it's WRONG! There are always sicko workers who abuse for the fun of it like you said.I'm lucky, my husband has been really great about it, but no one else in my family (or his) will even let me tell them what happens - it's the ol' "I don't want to know" or "ignorance is bliss". It pisses me off because they KNOW it's WRONG, and they're paying to continue the abuse. Hypocrites. I cannot abide people who wish to remain ignorant on anything when there is something they can do to make it better. People like my parents are the worst; they care nothing about the environment, the animals (but they won't eat veal because it's cruel????) or their own health.

You can come here and vent and we'll all understand, only too well, unfortunately. I am so glad to hear another meat eater takes profits from the torture/murder for profit business! Here's the way I see it: Man tortures and kills animals for his vanity, then the animals kill him with heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes, heart attacks, diabetes. It's poetic justice.Thanks for sharing, Karen.Shannon , "Karen Kraft" <wolfsoul wrote:>> Oh good. I was hoping I didn't sound preachy. I want to> share some of what I've actually seen here that needs to be> changed. > > I appreciate the welcome. I'm glad you started this group. > Hi all!!!> > Glad I've got veggie friends!> > Hi Karen-> > >

> This is ABSOLUTELY on-topic, and very insightful. Again,> > welcome to the group.> > > > , "Karen> > Kraft" <wolfsoul@> wrote:> > >> > > Hi: I'm very new to this group and hope I'm not going> > > off topic. It seems to me that you are dealing with> > > some aggression from people over your convictions. I> > > also don't know which of you are rural, but I am. I am> > > also part Native American. I think that gives me a> > > different perspective. > > > > > > In response to people who think respecting and being> > > "for" animals is anti-human, let me repeat something my> > > Grandfather and many Grandfathers have told me. > > > > > > The

world and the animals can live quite nicely without> > > humans; literally. They existed for millions of years> > > and thrived. They animals kept the world in perfect> > > balance. Man, on the other hand, can not survive> > > without the animals for the animals tame the world. Ask> > > your friends to think about this: "if you take man out> > > of the world, the animals will survive for millions more> > > years. If you take animals out of the world, man will> > > perish quickly." > > > Also, I was driving by a rural farmer's farm when they> > > were "harvesting" veal calves. They were kicking the> > > calves and laughing. The calves that could walk ran to> > > the end of their chains only to be met with sticks and> > > more laughter. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.> > > > >

> When they unchained the animals, the calves looked> > > surprised at their sudden freedom. They did not> > > overcome their surprise in time to run, but instead were> > > grabbed by their hair and thrown into the back of a> > > gooseneck trailer. Some were grabbed by their legs and> > > thrown. They were tossed like garbage bags and landed> > > on top of each other like so much waste. I saw their> > > legs breaking. I heard their screams. They were> > > innocent babies and I stopped my van and got out> > > screaming "how can you do that to them, how can you do> > > that to them? They're not trash." > > > The men kept throwing them. MY suffering as another> > > human watching the suffering of animals didn't matter to> > > them. So I screamed louder. Finally, the foreman came> > > up to me

laughing and asked me what I'd said. I told> > > him and he laughed and laughed. "They are not animals,> > > they are product."> > > > > > I propose to ask several things. First of all, if> > > killing animals hurts the hearts, minds and souls of> > > SOME of us humans, doesn't that mean finding alternative> > > foods is actually helping humans. Second of all, isn't> > > looking at others as "less than" and unfeeling, whether> > > those others are human or not how the holocaust began? > > > Isn't this animal holocaust?> > > > > > I also don't know if you have looked into how much land> > > it takes to raise beef vs soy and other crops. > > > Statistics have shown (and I'll get the studies if you> > > haven't already read them,) that it takes many, many> > > more

acreage for cattle. This same book said that if we> > > used this land for soy, there would be no human> > > starvation. Basically, we eat meat because we want to,> > > not because we have to. (I'm sorry if I'm you guys> > > already know this, I am VERY new.) > > > Living in this rural area, I have noticed that there is> > > a high incidence of family violence. I'd like to know> > > if anyone has studied the relation between being> > > unsympathetic to fellow sentient beings leads to> > > callousness towards humans. If so, then eating meat is> > > harmful to the safety of humans. Ok, huge leap there,> > > but I'm just talking because being vegetarian in a> > > culture that worships beef, rodeos and shootin' hogs is> > > tough. I here horror stories every day. I see horror> > > stories. I pass

trailers full of cattle going to> > > auction several days a week. > > > Instead of finding it hard to stick with vegetarianism> > > here, every time I pass a trailer and an old cow looks> > > at me without an eye in her socket and blood dripping> > > down her face (which happened) I say a prayer to her and> > > tell her I will stand firm. I know she is dead, but> > > maybe I can save her children. > > > > > > In the literature I received from one of the vegetarian> > > socieites it said that if I don't eat meat, I save up to> > > 90 cows a year. I think that is good for one person. I> > > feel that I've helped.> > > > > > Sorry to ramble. Sorry to rant. Living in cattle> > > country is lonely when you love animals.> > > > > > Hope I haven't offended

anyone.> > > > > > > Hi,> > > > > > > > I got the comment again yesterday from my supervisor> > > > (when I told her that I didn't go to Panda Express> > > > anymore because they do not serve vegetarian dishes as> > > > even the vegetables have a little bit of beef stuff in> > > > them, she said, "why do you want them to be like you?"> > > > and "have you ever been really hungry and have had no> > > > food?") She scoffs at me whenever the issue comes up> > > > in any way. Two other coworkers are sometimes teasing> > > > me, one more in a nice way , the other is more like a> > > > snake, she bites for a second and then retreats.> > > > I have a question: when I was at my stepdaughters> > > > house last Sunday, she brought up that they would

like> > > > to go to the beach soon and my husband said that then> > > > we could all go to the crab shack. I don't eat any> > > > meat anymore and I don't think it's really considerate> > > > but then, I don't have the right to hold them back> > > > either so that I am thinking either I'll go with them> > > > and hope they have a salad at the restaurant or I just> > > > stay at the beach while they go. This is more> > > > difficult than I thought!! But that's ok, anything for> > > > the animals!! Thank you for mentioning Jo> > > > Stepaniak's book, I bought it last night and already> > > > am half ways through! I got even more shocking> > > > information about the baby calves. Has anybody ever> > > > read Gary Francione? He is very good,too, same> > >

> philosophy as Jo.The only difference is that he would> > > > not accept living with a meat eater or anybody who> > uses any animal products. He stands his ground very> > > > firmly. Barbara, wow, you have a turtle club?? I> > > > have two water turtles, both rescued (I had never> > > > planned on having turtles but it just happened lol),> > > > one Penninsula cooter and one red eared slider. I ave> > > > them right now in a big acquarium but I would like to> > > > learn how I can make their environment even more> > > > adapted to their natural needs (in the acqarium, they> > > > have a platform to clinb on, a waterfall pump, and UV> > > > and basking lamps and pebbles), especially when they> > > > get bigger (they're about 2 years old now).My husband> > > > found one of

them, Emmitt, on the asphalt of the> > > > apartment complex we were living in at that time in> > > > georgia, the other was given to me by a former> > coworker, Emma was in pretty bad shape with a hole in her> > > > upper shell that has in the meantime healed. Any> > > > epxert siggestion would be very truly appreciated!> > > > What do you recommend feeding them especially when> > > > they get bigger? Could I join the turtle club?> > > > I am thinking about maybe doing a layover there in> > > > Dallas when I go to Germany this year, at the end of> > > > Augsut, maybe you'll have an event going that I could> > > > attend then?> > > > > > > > I am glad to be part of such a great group! > > > > > > > > Cheyenne> > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Barbara <urbanveggie@> wrote:> > > > Hi > > > > your welcome. I really like Julia's responce and her> > > > point about the 5 griev stages. SHe just speaks my> > > > mind. I also get those comments that there are so> > > > many people/kids suffering and how can I overlooked or> > > > even prefer the animals over my own specie so to say. > > > > Well, I usualy and politely ask what child-human> > > > issues are they involved and how can I help them to> > > > support their issue. Most of the time it catches the> > > > people off guard, because those who accuse don't do> > > > much. It basicaly supports the point of mine that> > > > there is just too many issues in the world and as a> > > > big

picture it becomes very overwhelming so dealing> > > > with it on individual basis help me to cope with it.> > > > My point is: at least I CHOSE one and so something> > > > about it. I don't eat meat and this helps the farm> > > > issues and environment (which actualy does help people> > > > in a very direct manner LOL) etc. My biggest passion> > > > are turtles so I am involved in that. I am member of> > > > several organizations and rescues and I also created> > > > local DFW Turtle and Tortoise Club so there is a place> > > > people can ask questions about their chelonians and> > find a better care options for them. I also occasionaly> > > > pick up a dog or cat and find them home or drive them> > > > in a shelter :-)> > > > > > > > I really liked the

Being Vegan book by her the best> > > > beacuse it aproaches all our questions and issues in> > > > very direct and simple explanatory way even me as> > > > english-scond-language-speaker can understand AND> > > > apply. I am reading now (among other books) Erin> > > > Pavlina's book on Raising vegan Children in a> > > > non-vegan world and it's has also excelent point > > > > which can be applied not only for children. I find> > > > most of these books in 1/2 price bookstore so check> > > > one if you have one near you. > > > > It seems that you guys started some fun conversation> > > > so I have to go read rest of your posts ;-)> > > > Barbara> > > > > > > > ,> > > > Christine Bradley <chaag62@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Hi Barbara,> > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem> > > > with my husband is that he IS educated about these> > > > issues :-( I think he is also trying to get me to care> > > > more about people issues than animal issues (never> > > > mind the fact that by fighting for the animals, one> > > > > also fights for people). I went to Stepaniak's> > > > website, i like it a lot. I also went to Borders> > > > bookstore and browsed through her book, I might get> > > > it. Another one I really like and it's about animal> > > > rights and

veganism is by Gary Francione "Intro to> > > > Animal Rights", he is brilliant (he is a law professor> > > > > at Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been> > > > > teaching animal rights there), his website is> > > > > www.animal-rights.org Pleased let me know what you> > > > > think! Cheyenne > > > > > Barbara <urbanveggie@> wrote:> > > > > Hi Cheyenne,> > > > > Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we> > > > > progress in different pace than our spouses and> > > > > family and we have to be exceptionaly patient. Think> > > > > , that they just do not know better and they have to> > > > > get educated as you did, but on their own terms and> > > > > pace. It cannot be forced. I am married and we

have> > > > > a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and I are> > > > > fully vegetarian in transition to veganism and my> > > > hubby is well on the way and very supportive, but> > > > > there are always those questions from other members> > > > > of our families and friends. I read several books> > > > > and I found this one the best aprochaing those> > > > > issues like yours: Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniak> > > > >> > > >> > > http://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-> > Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8175780-190553> > 3? ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1> > > > > It's an awesome and it very simply explains and> > >

> > comforts on how to deal with all those questions. > > > > > If you have children I can dig out some more I am> > > > > recently reading. > > > > > Hope this helped> > > > > Good luck and dont get discouraged, there are more> > > > > people like us that we think :-)> > > > > > > > > > Barbara> > > > > www.veggiechild.com> > > > > > > > > > ,> > > > > "cheyenne" <chaag62@> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Hello,> > > > > > I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for> > > > > > inviting me. I have just recently become vegan> > >

> > > and it's creating some problems. As I feel pretty> > > > > > alone in this, would it be possible to create a> > > > discussion about the issue of how to deal with meat> > > > > > eaters, with your spouse being one and about how> > > > vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?> > > > > > I am very frustrated because where I live> > > > (Riverside which is a medium > > > > > > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or> > > > anything like this, and > > > > > > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and> > > > > > only 1 vegan (and he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor> > > > > > of ours. I think I understand why he is so> > > > > > reclusive). I don't have anybody to talk about> > > > > >

this in my immediate family. My husband gets> > > > > > annoyed because he finds it "boring" (I admit i> > > > > > got mad today and said, "o you find the suffering> > > > of animals for food boring"...its pretty much silence> > > > ever since, he jumped out of the car > > > > > > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a> > > > > > big piece of ham). > > > > > > Cheyenne> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.> > > > > Try the free Mail Beta.> > > > >> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Need Mail bonding?> > > > Go to the Mail Q & A for great tips from > > > > Answers users.> > >> > > > > >> Don't pick lemons.See all the new 2007 cars at Autos. Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.Try the Mail Beta.

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