response to Karen's post

[Guest guest]

Hello Karen, Welcome to the group! Your response is very insightful! What Native American tribe are you (my husband is part Cherokee, the family is from Oklahoma)? Your Grandfather and those before him were very wise men! I believe that man cannot survivie wihtout the animals, absolutely. Unfortunate;ly, in its superior attitude, humankind will eradicate itself by eliminating animals one by one from this planet (I have the image in my mind of a world with no land left to graze in and only cows and people left.....) if it does not change its ways drastically and really soon. To answer your questions from my perspective: 1) Finding alternative food and foregoing meat eating in the long run will help all human beings. Meat eating is the result of the violent act of slaughter. It has in my view a detrimental effect on those who do the

actual slaughter as well on those that eat the meat. Violence always will beget violence, meat eating is no different. Look at the videos of seal hunters attacking the people who try to save the seals (www.seashepherd.org) , there is also a video somewhere, I believe on you tube that shows a woman being attacked by hunters in Great Britain, etc etc. As long as there is ANY form of slaughter going on, there simply cannot be true peace. It is not a giant leap at all to establish a connection between meat eating and people being violent to each other. It has already been proven that people who abuse animals will eventually move on to hurt people. This has been a concern for hundreds of years, I forgot where it started, I think it was in Europe way back when the main concern was that if someone abused animals, that person would also not be "nice" to human animals. It's described in Gary Francione's book "Animal Liberation", he is

a law professor who teaches about animal rights at Rutgers University (he is the first one to ever teach it at an university!!) His website is www.animal-law.org 2) Yes, one could look at animal slaughter and the exploitation and mistreatments of animals as a form of holocaust and genocide (animals are people,too). It is definitely comparable to these two events. 3) It takes approximately 18 lbs of grain to get 1 lbs of beef protein. one could feed many more people from that grain!!! Not to mention the devastating effects this has on the land and rain forests and usable land disappearing one by one. Humankind is on the wrong path. Eating meat will not solve the world hunger problem, it increases it. If we all stopped eating meat, we would have enough grain left to feed the world I don't remember how many times over (I think it was 3 or 4 times). Therefore, being for the animals is

indeed being for the people. And that's exactly what I told Trish, the nurse in charge when she asked what about people starving (she said I didn't make sense, well, one can't do much about people not being receptive to sound reasoning). 4) From what I see looking at history, things that people are uncomfortable with, issues that are being promoted by a minority are often met with aggression. This is something we as vegans will have to deal with. It is hardest when it happens in our closest relationships. I feel for those calves, it makes me very sad. I don't know how I would have handled this situation, I probably would have said something not so nice back to that foreman about them not being animals but just products. By going vegan, you are already imapcting the beef industry and thus going against those cattlemen. One person saves about 100 animals per year by going vegetarian and even more by going vegan. So, this is

then the most effective way to boycott the beef and meat industry and drive the numbers of animals exploited for food and other usages down. That's why the ads on TV so desperately try to instill a kind of panic on the viewer by presenting meat as an absolute necessity, as something a "real woman" or a "real man" must have, even in double and triple decker form, because they know they are losing (and that also thanks to the medical associations who are more and more coming to the conclusion that eating meat is not good for anybody). This is a great group, and I think the right place to express your feelings and views fully. That's why were have come together to share and support each other. Glad to have you with us! Cheyenne Karen Kraft <wolfsoul wrote: Oh good. I was hoping I didn't sound preachy. I want toshare some of what I've actually seen here that needs to bechanged. I appreciate the welcome. I'm glad you started this group. Hi all!!!Glad I've got veggie friends!> Hi Karen-> > This is ABSOLUTELY on-topic, and very insightful. Again,> welcome to the group.> > , "Karen> Kraft" <wolfsoul wrote:> >> > Hi: I'm very new to this group and hope I'm not going> > off topic. It seems to me that

you are dealing with> > some aggression from people over your convictions. I> > also don't know which of you are rural, but I am. I am> > also part Native American. I think that gives me a> > different perspective. > > > > In response to people who think respecting and being> > "for" animals is anti-human, let me repeat something my> > Grandfather and many Grandfathers have told me. > > > > The world and the animals can live quite nicely without> > humans; literally. They existed for millions of years> > and thrived. They animals kept the world in perfect> > balance. Man, on the other hand, can not survive> > without the animals for the animals tame the world. Ask> > your friends to think about this: "if you take man out> > of the world, the animals will survive for millions more> > years. If you take

animals out of the world, man will> > perish quickly." > > Also, I was driving by a rural farmer's farm when they> > were "harvesting" veal calves. They were kicking the> > calves and laughing. The calves that could walk ran to> > the end of their chains only to be met with sticks and> > more laughter. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.> > > > When they unchained the animals, the calves looked> > surprised at their sudden freedom. They did not> > overcome their surprise in time to run, but instead were> > grabbed by their hair and thrown into the back of a> > gooseneck trailer. Some were grabbed by their legs and> > thrown. They were tossed like garbage bags and landed> > on top of each other like so much waste. I saw their> > legs breaking. I heard their screams. They were> > innocent babies and I stopped my van

and got out> > screaming "how can you do that to them, how can you do> > that to them? They're not trash." > > The men kept throwing them. MY suffering as another> > human watching the suffering of animals didn't matter to> > them. So I screamed louder. Finally, the foreman came> > up to me laughing and asked me what I'd said. I told> > him and he laughed and laughed. "They are not animals,> > they are product."> > > > I propose to ask several things. First of all, if> > killing animals hurts the hearts, minds and souls of> > SOME of us humans, doesn't that mean finding alternative> > foods is actually helping humans. Second of all, isn't> > looking at others as "less than" and unfeeling, whether> > those others are human or not how the holocaust began? > > Isn't this animal holocaust?> > > > I

also don't know if you have looked into how much land> > it takes to raise beef vs soy and other crops. > > Statistics have shown (and I'll get the studies if you> > haven't already read them,) that it takes many, many> > more acreage for cattle. This same book said that if we> > used this land for soy, there would be no human> > starvation. Basically, we eat meat because we want to,> > not because we have to. (I'm sorry if I'm you guys> > already know this, I am VERY new.) > > Living in this rural area, I have noticed that there is> > a high incidence of family violence. I'd like to know> > if anyone has studied the relation between being> > unsympathetic to fellow sentient beings leads to> > callousness towards humans. If so, then eating meat is> > harmful to the safety of humans. Ok, huge leap there,> > but I'm just

talking because being vegetarian in a> > culture that worships beef, rodeos and shootin' hogs is> > tough. I here horror stories every day. I see horror> > stories. I pass trailers full of cattle going to> > auction several days a week. > > Instead of finding it hard to stick with vegetarianism> > here, every time I pass a trailer and an old cow looks> > at me without an eye in her socket and blood dripping> > down her face (which happened) I say a prayer to her and> > tell her I will stand firm. I know she is dead, but> > maybe I can save her children. > > > > In the literature I received from one of the vegetarian> > socieites it said that if I don't eat meat, I save up to> > 90 cows a year. I think that is good for one person. I> > feel that I've helped.> > > > Sorry to ramble. Sorry to rant. Living in

cattle> > country is lonely when you love animals.> > > > Hope I haven't offended anyone.> > > > > Hi,> > > > > > I got the comment again yesterday from my supervisor> > > (when I told her that I didn't go to Panda Express> > > anymore because they do not serve vegetarian dishes as> > > even the vegetables have a little bit of beef stuff in> > > them, she said, "why do you want them to be like you?"> > > and "have you ever been really hungry and have had no> > > food?") She scoffs at me whenever the issue comes up> > > in any way. Two other coworkers are sometimes teasing> > > me, one more in a nice way , the other is more like a> > > snake, she bites for a second and then retreats.> > > I have a question: when I was at my stepdaughters> > > house last

Sunday, she brought up that they would like> > > to go to the beach soon and my husband said that then> > > we could all go to the crab shack. I don't eat any> > > meat anymore and I don't think it's really considerate> > > but then, I don't have the right to hold them back> > > either so that I am thinking either I'll go with them> > > and hope they have a salad at the restaurant or I just> > > stay at the beach while they go. This is more> > > difficult than I thought!! But that's ok, anything for> > > the animals!! Thank you for mentioning Jo> > > Stepaniak's book, I bought it last night and already> > > am half ways through! I got even more shocking> > > information about the baby calves. Has anybody ever> > > read Gary Francione? He is very good,too, same> > > philosophy as Jo.The only

difference is that he would> > > not accept living with a meat eater or anybody who> uses any animal products. He stands his ground very> > > firmly. Barbara, wow, you have a turtle club?? I> > > have two water turtles, both rescued (I had never> > > planned on having turtles but it just happened lol),> > > one Penninsula cooter and one red eared slider. I ave> > > them right now in a big acquarium but I would like to> > > learn how I can make their environment even more> > > adapted to their natural needs (in the acqarium, they> > > have a platform to clinb on, a waterfall pump, and UV> > > and basking lamps and pebbles), especially when they> > > get bigger (they're about 2 years old now).My husband> > > found one of them, Emmitt, on the asphalt of the> > > apartment complex we were living in at

that time in> > > georgia, the other was given to me by a former> coworker, Emma was in pretty bad shape with a hole in her> > > upper shell that has in the meantime healed. Any> > > epxert siggestion would be very truly appreciated!> > > What do you recommend feeding them especially when> > > they get bigger? Could I join the turtle club?> > > I am thinking about maybe doing a layover there in> > > Dallas when I go to Germany this year, at the end of> > > Augsut, maybe you'll have an event going that I could> > > attend then?> > > > > > I am glad to be part of such a great group! > > > > > > Cheyenne> > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara <urbanveggie wrote:> > > Hi > > > your welcome. I really like Julia's

responce and her> > > point about the 5 griev stages. SHe just speaks my> > > mind. I also get those comments that there are so> > > many people/kids suffering and how can I overlooked or> > > even prefer the animals over my own specie so to say. > > > Well, I usualy and politely ask what child-human> > > issues are they involved and how can I help them to> > > support their issue. Most of the time it catches the> > > people off guard, because those who accuse don't do> > > much. It basicaly supports the point of mine that> > > there is just too many issues in the world and as a> > > big picture it becomes very overwhelming so dealing> > > with it on individual basis help me to cope with it.> > > My point is: at least I CHOSE one and so something> > > about it. I don't eat meat and this helps

the farm> > > issues and environment (which actualy does help people> > > in a very direct manner LOL) etc. My biggest passion> > > are turtles so I am involved in that. I am member of> > > several organizations and rescues and I also created> > > local DFW Turtle and Tortoise Club so there is a place> > > people can ask questions about their chelonians and> find a better care options for them. I also occasionaly> > > pick up a dog or cat and find them home or drive them> > > in a shelter :-)> > > > > > I really liked the Being Vegan book by her the best> > > beacuse it aproaches all our questions and issues in> > > very direct and simple explanatory way even me as> > > english-scond-language-speaker can understand AND> > > apply. I am reading now (among other books)

Erin> > > Pavlina's book on Raising vegan Children in a> > > non-vegan world and it's has also excelent point > > > which can be applied not only for children. I find> > > most of these books in 1/2 price bookstore so check> > > one if you have one near you. > > > It seems that you guys started some fun conversation> > > so I have to go read rest of your posts ;-)> > > Barbara> > > > > > ,> > > Christine Bradley <chaag62@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Hi Barbara,> > > > > > > > Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem> > > with my husband is that he IS educated about these> > > issues :-( I think he is also trying to

get me to care> > > more about people issues than animal issues (never> > > mind the fact that by fighting for the animals, one> > > > also fights for people). I went to Stepaniak's> > > website, i like it a lot. I also went to Borders> > > bookstore and browsed through her book, I might get> > > it. Another one I really like and it's about animal> > > rights and veganism is by Gary Francione "Intro to> > > Animal Rights", he is brilliant (he is a law professor> > > > at Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been> > > > teaching animal rights there), his website is> > > > www.animal-rights.org Pleased let me know what you> > > > think! Cheyenne > > > > Barbara <urbanveggie@> wrote:> > > > Hi Cheyenne,> > > > Welcome to the group. I think

that sometimes we> > > > progress in different pace than our spouses and> > > > family and we have to be exceptionaly patient. Think> > > > , that they just do not know better and they have to> > > > get educated as you did, but on their own terms and> > > > pace. It cannot be forced. I am married and we have> > > > a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and I are> > > > fully vegetarian in transition to veganism and my> > > hubby is well on the way and very supportive, but> > > > there are always those questions from other members> > > > of our families and friends. I read several books> > > > and I found this one the best aprochaing those> > > > issues like yours: Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniak> > > >> > >> > http://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-> Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8175780-190553> 3? ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1> > > > It's an awesome and it very simply explains and> > > > comforts on how to deal with all those questions. > > > > If you have children I can dig out some more I am> > > > recently reading. > > > > Hope this helped> > > > Good luck and dont get discouraged, there are more> > > > people like us that we think :-)> > > > > > > > Barbara> > > > www.veggiechild.com> > > > > > > > ,> > >

> "cheyenne" <chaag62@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Hello,> > > > > I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for> > > > > inviting me. I have just recently become vegan> > > > > and it's creating some problems. As I feel pretty> > > > > alone in this, would it be possible to create a> > > discussion about the issue of how to deal with meat> > > > > eaters, with your spouse being one and about how> > > vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?> > > > > I am very frustrated because where I live> > > (Riverside which is a medium > > > > > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or> > > anything like this, and > > > > > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and> > > > > only 1 vegan (and he is

a hermit, he's a nieghbor> > > > > of ours. I think I understand why he is so> > > > > reclusive). I don't have anybody to talk about> > > > > this in my immediate family. My husband gets> > > > > annoyed because he finds it "boring" (I admit i> > > > > got mad today and said, "o you find the suffering> > > of animals for food boring"...its pretty much silence> > > ever since, he jumped out of the car > > > > > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a> > > > > big piece of ham). > > > > > Cheyenne> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sucker-punch spam with

award-winning protection.> > > > Try the free Mail Beta.> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Need Mail bonding?> > > Go to the Mail Q & A for great tips from > > > Answers users.> >> > >

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