from Cheyenne

[Guest guest]

Hi all, I hope I wasn't too preachy in my emails and I have not offended anybody with my view about the major organizations. As I said, they HAVE done a lot good. In re Peta, I have to admit that I do like them being so pushy at times, it's the reason why I support Sea Shepherd. I think nature will eventually take care of a lot of things such as humankind being forced away from meat eating and any exploitation of animals simply because the way it is now is not sustainable (I think Einsteinw as right in this) and we are eliminating more and more animals from the earth while on the other hand overpopulating the earth with people and animals being used for food. At some point, we won't be able to feed them anymore because there are no natural resources left (no grass to feed on for either human animals nor animals, etc). I don't know if your ead anout it, Great Britain has already recommended to its citizens to

consider going vegan for that reason. How do you deal with food issues when traveling? I am going to see if I can find a vegetraian/vegan group or people in Germany who can tell me where to shop (I already found a German vegetarian restaurant in my hometown). I get this response quite often, "oh how sad!!" and then people go on and eat meat! I got a good response yesterday on my T-Shirt , I wore it under my uniform but told one of the eye doctors what it said, and she looked a little surprised and said, "That is a good point!" This shows how unaware people are and just not thinking. By the way, I am learning to meet peoples' remarks with humor, that usually throws them off! If I get too preachy just set me straight lol I love Jo Stepaniak's book, wow!!!!! Please, keep the communication up, you are all great people and together, we can accomplish a lot! Cheyenneshannon

morgan <shannonmorgan36 wrote: Hi, Cheyenne, I totally understand where you're coming from. All of us AR activists have the same goal: ELIMINATE, not make "more humane" the abuse and use of animals for any reason. Unfortunately, that is never going to happen. People will always eat meat, wear leather, fur, attend animal "entertainment" events, and there will probably always be experimentation in labs. It's really

pitiful. But, I definitely would not call PeTA and HSUS sell outs. PeTA has gained a ton of victories, stopping abuse, not just making it less heinous. (I am a member of both, and IDA). They get the most attention, and are very effective in causing boycotts because that's the only way these assholes will stop torturing animals, if it hurts their blood covered money or their reputations. I agree that HSUS is not as zealous as PeTA, but they are taken more seriously, and not thought of as crazy, so they get things done, too, but more on the welfare end and not so much the elimination of the problem. We just all have to pull together and keep being heard, gettting media attention, getting legislative laws more protective of animals, etc. There has been a MASSIVE amount of accomplishments over the past years, even many this year! Don't

get me wrong here, I am NOT an animal "welfare" person. But, any less suffering is better than current situations. It seems that ever since AETA was passed, there has been even more AR activity and more victories. Most of us basically knew that. You don't pick one certain group and take away their rights with threats of prison. It pisses people off, and they will fight harder. I am so glad you're here and helping. I admire your passion, it mirrors my own. My parents call me a "zealot". Well, being a zealot get results. People who sit on their asses and say "oh how sad" don't get anything done, and they're always the ones who contribute. Now who's preaching???? Thanks for writing, I really appreciate the opportunity to talk with you! ShannonChristine Bradley <chaag62 > wrote: Hi Shannon, The first few months are indeed the hardest, especially when there is resistance from family and friends and they view one as being extremist. I do not miss meat, and the smell by now is nauseating. In re animal welfarists, they got a lot of things wrong. They are not animal rights activists (which in my view makes Peta, HSUS and the others sell outs because they do cave in to the pressure of those who want to keep exploiting so that these organizations go along with "improvement of humane treatment of animals and humane slaughter". Humane slaughter is an oxymororn just as the "war on terror" is. I am, however, not disregarding the few good things they did achieve).. By

implementing "humane" options, they actually increase the suffering and number of animals exploited simply by reinforcing their status as property and making people feel better about them exploiting animals in a more "humane" fashion. And of course, there are always people who find enjoyment in abusing animals which is rampant in every sector of animal exploitation. Grassroots organizations are undiluted organizations and therefore are the strongest voices for the animals. I love Gary Francione's statement: If I agree that inflicting unnecessary suffering on an animal is wrong, and yet I eat meat, wear fur, exploit them in experiments, in circuses, zoos etc, then this is what can be called a "moral schizophrenia". Now I hope, I am not too preachy oops Cheyenne shannonmorgan36 <shannonmorgan36 > wrote: Hi Karen, and welcome!I have been following this discussion and it's great to talk to other people who go vegan mainly for the animals. When I first met Julia, she told me about the first few months being the hardest and making you very angry at people who eat meat, mainly the people you try to "enlighten" who just don't care. I'm 10 months into it; changing the food was no prob after learning about factory farming - overnight. I think the 5 stages of grief is a really good analogy, brilliant.I never have one time missed ANY animal product since I stopped. If I even see or smell it, the movie meetyourmeat.com pops in and stops it in its tracks. I have conditioned myself to actually become nauseous when I smell meat.I was born into farming Angus and pork (till I was 12). I was very young then and exposed to

branding, castrating with no pain relief, etc. It didn't seem so wrong because I didn't know anything else, but there was a part of me that felt very bad for them. I always cried when they took the calves and pigs away - they were my friends. Now, I can't even read about it. Your story made me cry so much I couldn't finish it. Whether the animal "welfare" people get their way of "humane slaughter" WTF???, it's still a cruel and heinous way of treating animals ad it's WRONG! There are always sicko workers who abuse for the fun of it like you said.I'm lucky, my husband has been really great about it, but no one else in my family (or his) will even let me tell them what happens - it's the ol' "I don't want to know" or "ignorance is bliss". It pisses me off because they KNOW it's WRONG, and they're paying to continue the abuse. Hypocrites. I cannot abide people who wish to remain ignorant on anything when

there is something they can do to make it better. People like my parents are the worst; they care nothing about the environment, the animals (but they won't eat veal because it's cruel????) or their own health. You can come here and vent and we'll all understand, only too well, unfortunately. I am so glad to hear another meat eater takes profits from the torture/murder for profit business! Here's the way I see it: Man tortures and kills animals for his vanity, then the animals kill him with heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes, heart attacks, diabetes. It's poetic justice.Thanks for sharing, Karen.Shannon , "Karen Kraft" <wolfsoul wrote:>> Oh good. I was hoping I didn't sound preachy. I want to> share some of what I've actually seen here

that needs to be> changed. > > I appreciate the welcome. I'm glad you started this group. > Hi all!!!> > Glad I've got veggie friends!> > Hi Karen-> > > > This is ABSOLUTELY on-topic, and very insightful. Again,> > welcome to the group.> > > > , "Karen> > Kraft" <wolfsoul@> wrote:> > >> > > Hi: I'm very new to this group and hope I'm not going> > > off topic. It seems to me that you are dealing with> > > some aggression from people over your convictions. I> > > also don't know which of you are rural, but I am. I am> > > also part Native American. I think that gives me a> > > different perspective. > > > > > > In response

to people who think respecting and being> > > "for" animals is anti-human, let me repeat something my> > > Grandfather and many Grandfathers have told me. > > > > > > The world and the animals can live quite nicely without> > > humans; literally. They existed for millions of years> > > and thrived. They animals kept the world in perfect> > > balance. Man, on the other hand, can not survive> > > without the animals for the animals tame the world. Ask> > > your friends to think about this: "if you take man out> > > of the world, the animals will survive for millions more> > > years. If you take animals out of the world, man will> > > perish quickly." > > > Also, I was driving by a rural farmer's farm when they> > > were "harvesting" veal calves. They were kicking the> > > calves and

laughing. The calves that could walk ran to> > > the end of their chains only to be met with sticks and> > > more laughter. I couldn't believe what I was seeing.> > > > > > When they unchained the animals, the calves looked> > > surprised at their sudden freedom. They did not> > > overcome their surprise in time to run, but instead were> > > grabbed by their hair and thrown into the back of a> > > gooseneck trailer. Some were grabbed by their legs and> > > thrown. They were tossed like garbage bags and landed> > > on top of each other like so much waste. I saw their> > > legs breaking. I heard their screams. They were> > > innocent babies and I stopped my van and got out> > > screaming "how can you do that to them, how can you do> > > that to them? They're not trash." > > > The men

kept throwing them. MY suffering as another> > > human watching the suffering of animals didn't matter to> > > them. So I screamed louder. Finally, the foreman came> > > up to me laughing and asked me what I'd said. I told> > > him and he laughed and laughed. "They are not animals,> > > they are product."> > > > > > I propose to ask several things. First of all, if> > > killing animals hurts the hearts, minds and souls of> > > SOME of us humans, doesn't that mean finding alternative> > > foods is actually helping humans. Second of all, isn't> > > looking at others as "less than" and unfeeling, whether> > > those others are human or not how the holocaust began? > > > Isn't this animal holocaust?> > > > > > I also don't know if you have looked into how much land> > > it

takes to raise beef vs soy and other crops. > > > Statistics have shown (and I'll get the studies if you> > > haven't already read them,) that it takes many, many> > > more acreage for cattle. This same book said that if we> > > used this land for soy, there would be no human> > > starvation. Basically, we eat meat because we want to,> > > not because we have to. (I'm sorry if I'm you guys> > > already know this, I am VERY new.) > > > Living in this rural area, I have noticed that there is> > > a high incidence of family violence. I'd like to know> > > if anyone has studied the relation between being> > > unsympathetic to fellow sentient beings leads to> > > callousness towards humans. If so, then eating meat is> > > harmful to the safety of humans. Ok, huge leap there,> > > but I'm just

talking because being vegetarian in a> > > culture that worships beef, rodeos and shootin' hogs is> > > tough. I here horror stories every day. I see horror> > > stories. I pass trailers full of cattle going to> > > auction several days a week. > > > Instead of finding it hard to stick with vegetarianism> > > here, every time I pass a trailer and an old cow looks> > > at me without an eye in her socket and blood dripping> > > down her face (which happened) I say a prayer to her and> > > tell her I will stand firm. I know she is dead, but> > > maybe I can save her children. > > > > > > In the literature I received from one of the vegetarian> > > socieites it said that if I don't eat meat, I save up to> > > 90 cows a year. I think that is good for one person. I> > > feel that I've

helped.> > > > > > Sorry to ramble. Sorry to rant. Living in cattle> > > country is lonely when you love animals.> > > > > > Hope I haven't offended anyone.> > > > > > > Hi,> > > > > > > > I got the comment again yesterday from my supervisor> > > > (when I told her that I didn't go to Panda Express> > > > anymore because they do not serve vegetarian dishes as> > > > even the vegetables have a little bit of beef stuff in> > > > them, she said, "why do you want them to be like you?"> > > > and "have you ever been really hungry and have had no> > > > food?") She scoffs at me whenever the issue comes up> > > > in any way. Two other coworkers are sometimes teasing> > > > me, one more in a nice way , the other is more like

a> > > > snake, she bites for a second and then retreats.> > > > I have a question: when I was at my stepdaughters> > > > house last Sunday, she brought up that they would like> > > > to go to the beach soon and my husband said that then> > > > we could all go to the crab shack. I don't eat any> > > > meat anymore and I don't think it's really considerate> > > > but then, I don't have the right to hold them back> > > > either so that I am thinking either I'll go with them> > > > and hope they have a salad at the restaurant or I just> > > > stay at the beach while they go. This is more> > > > difficult than I thought!! But that's ok, anything for> > > > the animals!! Thank you for mentioning Jo> > > > Stepaniak's book, I bought it last night and already> >

> > am half ways through! I got even more shocking> > > > information about the baby calves. Has anybody ever> > > > read Gary Francione? He is very good,too, same> > > > philosophy as Jo.The only difference is that he would> > > > not accept living with a meat eater or anybody who> > uses any animal products. He stands his ground very> > > > firmly. Barbara, wow, you have a turtle club?? I> > > > have two water turtles, both rescued (I had never> > > > planned on having turtles but it just happened lol),> > > > one Penninsula cooter and one red eared slider. I ave> > > > them right now in a big acquarium but I would like to> > > > learn how I can make their environment even more> > > > adapted to their natural needs (in the acqarium, they> > > > have a platform to

clinb on, a waterfall pump, and UV> > > > and basking lamps and pebbles), especially when they> > > > get bigger (they're about 2 years old now).My husband> > > > found one of them, Emmitt, on the asphalt of the> > > > apartment complex we were living in at that time in> > > > georgia, the other was given to me by a former> > coworker, Emma was in pretty bad shape with a hole in her> > > > upper shell that has in the meantime healed. Any> > > > epxert siggestion would be very truly appreciated!> > > > What do you recommend feeding them especially when> > > > they get bigger? Could I join the turtle club?> > > > I am thinking about maybe doing a layover there in> > > > Dallas when I go to Germany this year, at the end of> > > > Augsut, maybe you'll have an event going that I

could> > > > attend then?> > > > > > > > I am glad to be part of such a great group! > > > > > > > > Cheyenne> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Barbara <urbanveggie@> wrote:> > > > Hi > > > > your welcome. I really like Julia's responce and her> > > > point about the 5 griev stages. SHe just speaks my> > > > mind. I also get those comments that there are so> > > > many people/kids suffering and how can I overlooked or> > > > even prefer the animals over my own specie so to say. > > > > Well, I usualy and politely ask what child-human> > > > issues are they involved and how can I help them to> > > > support their issue. Most of the time it catches the> > > > people

off guard, because those who accuse don't do> > > > much. It basicaly supports the point of mine that> > > > there is just too many issues in the world and as a> > > > big picture it becomes very overwhelming so dealing> > > > with it on individual basis help me to cope with it.> > > > My point is: at least I CHOSE one and so something> > > > about it. I don't eat meat and this helps the farm> > > > issues and environment (which actualy does help people> > > > in a very direct manner LOL) etc. My biggest passion> > > > are turtles so I am involved in that. I am member of> > > > several organizations and rescues and I also created> > > > local DFW Turtle and Tortoise Club so there is a place> > > > people can ask questions about their chelonians and> > find a better care

options for them. I also occasionaly> > > > pick up a dog or cat and find them home or drive them> > > > in a shelter :-)> > > > > > > > I really liked the Being Vegan book by her the best> > > > beacuse it aproaches all our questions and issues in> > > > very direct and simple explanatory way even me as> > > > english-scond-language-speaker can understand AND> > > > apply. I am reading now (among other books) Erin> > > > Pavlina's book on Raising vegan Children in a> > > > non-vegan world and it's has also excelent point > > > > which can be applied not only for children. I find> > > > most of these books in 1/2 price bookstore so check> > > > one if you have one near you. > > > > It seems that you guys started some fun conversation>

> > > so I have to go read rest of your posts ;-)> > > > Barbara> > > > > > > > ,> > > > Christine Bradley <chaag62@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Hi Barbara,> > > > > > > > > > Thank you for your supportive letter! The problem> > > > with my husband is that he IS educated about these> > > > issues :-( I think he is also trying to get me to care> > > > more about people issues than animal issues (never> > > > mind the fact that by fighting for the animals, one> > > > > also fights for people). I went to Stepaniak's> > > > website, i like it a lot. I also went to Borders> > > > bookstore and

browsed through her book, I might get> > > > it. Another one I really like and it's about animal> > > > rights and veganism is by Gary Francione "Intro to> > > > Animal Rights", he is brilliant (he is a law professor> > > > > at Rutgers Universitu in New Jersey and has been> > > > > teaching animal rights there), his website is> > > > > www.animal-rights.org Pleased let me know what you> > > > > think! Cheyenne > > > > > Barbara <urbanveggie@> wrote:> > > > > Hi Cheyenne,> > > > > Welcome to the group. I think that sometimes we> > > > > progress in different pace than our spouses and> > > > > family and we have to be exceptionaly patient. Think> > > > > , that they just do not know better and they have to> > >

> > get educated as you did, but on their own terms and> > > > > pace. It cannot be forced. I am married and we have> > > > > a small 17 month old girl. My daughter and I are> > > > > fully vegetarian in transition to veganism and my> > > > hubby is well on the way and very supportive, but> > > > > there are always those questions from other members> > > > > of our families and friends. I read several books> > > > > and I found this one the best aprochaing those> > > > > issues like yours: Being vegan by Joanne Stepaniak> > > > >> > > >> > > http://www.amazon.com/Being-Vegan-Joanne-> > Stepaniak/dp/0737303239/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/104-8175780-190553> > 3?

ie=UTF8 & s=books & qid=1174270011 & sr=1-1> > > > > It's an awesome and it very simply explains and> > > > > comforts on how to deal with all those questions. > > > > > If you have children I can dig out some more I am> > > > > recently reading. > > > > > Hope this helped> > > > > Good luck and dont get discouraged, there are more> > > > > people like us that we think :-)> > > > > > > > > > Barbara> > > > > www.veggiechild.com> > > > > > > > > > ,> > > > > "cheyenne" <chaag62@> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Hello,> > > >

> > I am new to this group and I thank Margaret for> > > > > > inviting me. I have just recently become vegan> > > > > > and it's creating some problems. As I feel pretty> > > > > > alone in this, would it be possible to create a> > > > discussion about the issue of how to deal with meat> > > > > > eaters, with your spouse being one and about how> > > > vegetarians feel when they see people eat meat?> > > > > > I am very frustrated because where I live> > > > (Riverside which is a medium > > > > > > sized city), there isn't a vegetarian group or> > > > anything like this, and > > > > > > I know only about 5 people who are vegetarians and> > > > > > only 1 vegan (and he is a hermit, he's a nieghbor> > > > > >

of ours. I think I understand why he is so> > > > > > reclusive). I don't have anybody to talk about> > > > > > this in my immediate family. My husband gets> > > > > > annoyed because he finds it "boring" (I admit i> > > > > > got mad today and said, "o you find the suffering> > > > of animals for food boring"...its pretty much silence> > > > ever since, he jumped out of the car > > > > > > and went shopping for himself and bought himself a> > > > > > big piece of ham). > > > > > > Cheyenne> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > Sucker-punch spam with award-winning protection.> > > > > Try the free Mail Beta.> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Need Mail bonding?> > > > Go to the Mail Q & A for great tips from > > > > Answers users.> > >> > > > > >> Don't pick lemons.See all the new 2007 cars at Autos. Expecting? Get great news right away with email Auto-Check.Try the Mail Beta. 8:00? 8:25? 8:40? Find a flick in no timewith the Search movie showtime shortcut.

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