Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hi, I'm Val, and I've recently joined up here. I've been doing this program since January of 2002. I've been a vegetarian in my long past, though not for a lotta years, though I've always felt drawn to that way of living and eating. I really like vegetarian food but I have a question that's actually puzzled me for quite a while. My question concerns the protein requirements of the program and how a vegetarian meets them. It's pretty simple for me to do the gram-counting and hit protein mark from chicken or fish... but I admit, I've had visions of having to get through something like *two cups* of beans in a meal (plus the browns and greens!) in order to meet the protein requirement. Sounds like a lot of food to get through <smile>, like I'd be eating way past full if I aimed for that much. I'm not at all concerned about the old thinking of " complementary " proteins; I'm only wondering about " enough " . Can any of you pass along your insights on this? Or is it simply a " why don't you journal it & see " thing? :-) Thanks, ~Val Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hi Val, I'm a vegan and I get my protein by using a variety of resources each meal, adn that helps me avoid having to have a lot of one thing at a meal. I also have a snack, which helps. These are my meals for today: For breakfast I had a shake made with rice protein powder and a bean burrito. At lunch I will have black beans and quinoa, with apples and peanut butter. Then after my workout I am having a bowl of oatmeal with a scoop of protein powder and walnuts in it, and a cup of chocolate soy milk on the side. For dinner I am having enchiladas made with mycoprotein (Quorn) and a garden salad with some cold beans thrown in. Before bed I am having a sweet potato with cinnamon. Yesterday for lunch I had a whole wheat wrap with seitan (mixed with spices, celery, and veganaise to make it taste like chicken salad) and spinach. I find that it is really important that I get my protein from different things each day, adn from at least two sources each meal and to avoid having too much tofu/soy type products. The soy stuff makes me feel nutty! I hope that helps! Maggie On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Val<vjlawren wrote: > > > Hi, I'm Val, and I've recently joined up here. I've been doing this program > since January of 2002. I've been a vegetarian in my long past, though not > for a lotta years, though I've always felt drawn to that way of living and > eating. I really like vegetarian food but I have a question that's actually > puzzled me for quite a while. > > My question concerns the protein requirements of the program and how a > vegetarian meets them. It's pretty simple for me to do the gram-counting and > hit protein mark from chicken or fish... but I admit, I've had visions of > having to get through something like *two cups* of beans in a meal (plus the > browns and greens!) in order to meet the protein requirement. Sounds like a > lot of food to get through <smile>, like I'd be eating way past full if I > aimed for that much. > > I'm not at all concerned about the old thinking of " complementary " proteins; > I'm only wondering about " enough " . Can any of you pass along your insights > on this? > > Or is it simply a " why don't you journal it & see " thing? :-) > > Thanks, > ~Val > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hi Maggie, thanks, these are some great ideas for *what* to use as protein. I was actually wondering, though, about quantity - meeting the protein requirements of the program as far as *amounts* of protein. hmmmm, maybe using diverse sources is the answer to that question... ~Val , Maggie Vining <Maggie.Vining wrote: > > Hi Val, > > I'm a vegan and I get my protein by using a variety of resources each > meal, adn that helps me avoid having to have a lot of one thing at a > meal. I also have a snack, which helps. These are my meals for > today: For breakfast I had a shake made with rice protein powder and a > bean burrito. At lunch I will have black beans and quinoa, with > apples and peanut butter. Then after my workout I am having a bowl of > oatmeal with a scoop of protein powder and walnuts in it, and a cup of > chocolate soy milk on the side. For dinner I am having enchiladas > made with mycoprotein (Quorn) and a garden salad with some cold beans > thrown in. Before bed I am having a sweet potato with cinnamon. > > Yesterday for lunch I had a whole wheat wrap with seitan (mixed with > spices, celery, and veganaise to make it taste like chicken salad) and > spinach. > > I find that it is really important that I get my protein from > different things each day, adn from at least two sources each meal and > to avoid having too much tofu/soy type products. The soy stuff makes > me feel nutty! I hope that helps! > > Maggie > > On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Val<vjlawren wrote: > > > > > > Hi, I'm Val, and I've recently joined up here. I've been doing this program > > since January of 2002. I've been a vegetarian in my long past, though not > > for a lotta years, though I've always felt drawn to that way of living and > > eating. I really like vegetarian food but I have a question that's actually > > puzzled me for quite a while. > > > > My question concerns the protein requirements of the program and how a > > vegetarian meets them. It's pretty simple for me to do the gram-counting and > > hit protein mark from chicken or fish... but I admit, I've had visions of > > having to get through something like *two cups* of beans in a meal (plus the > > browns and greens!) in order to meet the protein requirement. Sounds like a > > lot of food to get through <smile>, like I'd be eating way past full if I > > aimed for that much. > > > > I'm not at all concerned about the old thinking of " complementary " proteins; > > I'm only wondering about " enough " . Can any of you pass along your insights > > on this? > > > > Or is it simply a " why don't you journal it & see " thing? :-) > > > > Thanks, > > ~Val > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hi Val, nice to meet you! I saw Maggie wrote in such super suggestions--yum! Janine On Jun 13, 2009, at 5:26 PM, Val wrote: > > > Hi, I'm Val, and I've recently joined up here. I've been doing this > program since January of 2002. I've been a vegetarian in my long > past, though not for a lotta years, though I've always felt drawn to > that way of living and eating. I really like vegetarian food but I > have a question that's actually puzzled me for quite a while. > > My question concerns the protein requirements of the program and how > a vegetarian meets them. It's pretty simple for me to do the gram- > counting and hit protein mark from chicken or fish... but I admit, > I've had visions of having to get through something like *two cups* > of beans in a meal (plus the browns and greens!) in order to meet > the protein requirement. Sounds like a lot of food to get through > <smile>, like I'd be eating way past full if I aimed for that much. > > I'm not at all concerned about the old thinking of " complementary " > proteins; I'm only wondering about " enough " . Can any of you pass > along your insights on this? > > Or is it simply a " why don't you journal it & see " thing? :-) > > Thanks, > ~Val > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I've been wondering about that too Val...trying to figure it out how to get the required amount of protein with the least amount of calories as I would also like to loose a bit of weight & certainly don't want to gain (which I did at first)...it seems a bit tricky especially being vegetarian...Holly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Yep, that was what I meant by making those suggestions. For me it's about using different types of protein in order to get enough protein in. For example instead of having 3 bean burritos I have one bean burrito plus a shake made with rice protein powder. : ) It really helps to not feel like I have having to eat too much of one thing. Maggie On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 10:25 AM, Val<vjlawren wrote: > > > Hi Maggie, thanks, these are some great ideas for *what* to use as protein. > I was actually wondering, though, about quantity - meeting the protein > requirements of the program as far as *amounts* of protein. hmmmm, maybe > using diverse sources is the answer to that question... ~Val > > , Maggie Vining <Maggie.Vining > wrote: >> >> Hi Val, >> >> I'm a vegan and I get my protein by using a variety of resources each >> meal, adn that helps me avoid having to have a lot of one thing at a >> meal. I also have a snack, which helps. These are my meals for >> today: For breakfast I had a shake made with rice protein powder and a >> bean burrito. At lunch I will have black beans and quinoa, with >> apples and peanut butter. Then after my workout I am having a bowl of >> oatmeal with a scoop of protein powder and walnuts in it, and a cup of >> chocolate soy milk on the side. For dinner I am having enchiladas >> made with mycoprotein (Quorn) and a garden salad with some cold beans >> thrown in. Before bed I am having a sweet potato with cinnamon. >> >> Yesterday for lunch I had a whole wheat wrap with seitan (mixed with >> spices, celery, and veganaise to make it taste like chicken salad) and >> spinach. >> >> I find that it is really important that I get my protein from >> different things each day, adn from at least two sources each meal and >> to avoid having too much tofu/soy type products. The soy stuff makes >> me feel nutty! I hope that helps! >> >> Maggie >> >> On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 8:26 PM, Val<vjlawren wrote: >> > >> > >> > Hi, I'm Val, and I've recently joined up here. I've been doing this >> > program >> > since January of 2002. I've been a vegetarian in my long past, though >> > not >> > for a lotta years, though I've always felt drawn to that way of living >> > and >> > eating. I really like vegetarian food but I have a question that's >> > actually >> > puzzled me for quite a while. >> > >> > My question concerns the protein requirements of the program and how a >> > vegetarian meets them. It's pretty simple for me to do the gram-counting >> > and >> > hit protein mark from chicken or fish... but I admit, I've had visions >> > of >> > having to get through something like *two cups* of beans in a meal (plus >> > the >> > browns and greens!) in order to meet the protein requirement. Sounds >> > like a >> > lot of food to get through <smile>, like I'd be eating way past full if >> > I >> > aimed for that much. >> > >> > I'm not at all concerned about the old thinking of " complementary " >> > proteins; >> > I'm only wondering about " enough " . Can any of you pass along your >> > insights >> > on this? >> > >> > Or is it simply a " why don't you journal it & see " thing? :-) >> > >> > Thanks, >> > ~Val >> > >> > >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I have about 90g of protein a day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 I'm sorry, it looks like I still haven't been clear with my question. Let me try to be clearer. I know how many grams of protein I need to aim for per day - I've been doing it with no problems at all for over seven years; just not as a vegetarian. I'm not at all concerned with calorie intake and especially not with restricting calories; I honestly ignore calories and have no idea how many are in anything. What I'm wondering is, for example, if beans are my protein source in a given meal instead of chicken, and the protein count on beans is something like 7 grams per 1/2 cup... doesn't that mean that instead of, say, three ounces of chicken, I'd need to find room in my stomach for something like two whole cups of beans, plus the browns plus the greens? I'm not asking this from a calorie or weight gain point of view; I'm simply wondering how people can take in that much volume in order to meet the program's protein requirements - or if there's a different way to approach protein *quantity* as a vegetarian. Or if I should just forget about it, give it a try, and let my journal decide. I'm really sorry if this still isn't clear. ~Val , " hollysarian " <hsarian wrote: > > I've been wondering about that too Val...trying to figure it out how to get the required amount of protein with the least amount of calories as I would also like to loose a bit of weight & certainly don't want to gain (which I did at first)...it seems a bit tricky especially being vegetarian...Holly > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hi Val, I mostly don't worry about browns, and veggies. I focus on protein and the browns and veggies just happen as part of the meal. So for example, for breakfast I know I need 30g of protein. I next think about what arrangement of protein sources would work for me in the mornings and meet 30g requirement. 2tbsp-3 tbsp of rice protein powder in my shake and a bean burrito meet that requirement. But along with that I also happen to be having a whole wheat wrap, a banana, almond milk, a few scoops of baby oatmeal, tomato, etc... That seems to be working for me. I don't count veggies, browns, carbs, calories or anything else. Just protein. : ) But I do make sure I have a protain resource AND a carb resource. So I do not count my beans as a carb. Does that answer your question? Maggie On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 1:29 PM, Val<vjlawren wrote: > > > I'm sorry, it looks like I still haven't been clear with my question. Let me > try to be clearer. > > I know how many grams of protein I need to aim for per day - I've been doing > it with no problems at all for over seven years; just not as a vegetarian. > > I'm not at all concerned with calorie intake and especially not with > restricting calories; I honestly ignore calories and have no idea how many > are in anything. > > What I'm wondering is, for example, if beans are my protein source in a > given meal instead of chicken, and the protein count on beans is something > like 7 grams per 1/2 cup... doesn't that mean that instead of, say, three > ounces of chicken, I'd need to find room in my stomach for something like > two whole cups of beans, plus the browns plus the greens? > > I'm not asking this from a calorie or weight gain point of view; I'm simply > wondering how people can take in that much volume in order to meet the > program's protein requirements - or if there's a different way to approach > protein *quantity* as a vegetarian. Or if I should just forget about it, > give it a try, and let my journal decide. > > I'm really sorry if this still isn't clear. > > ~Val > > , " hollysarian " <hsarian > wrote: >> >> I've been wondering about that too Val...trying to figure it out how to >> get the required amount of protein with the least amount of calories as I >> would also like to loose a bit of weight & certainly don't want to gain >> (which I did at first)...it seems a bit tricky especially being >> vegetarian...Holly >> > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Hi Val, yah, I have found the bulk of food tends to be more with veggie protein then with animal protein. With some time you do get used to it. What worked well for me when going vegetarian was to baby step my way towards it (you know how much we love baby steps!), so maybe an option for you to consider is half veggie protein and half animal protein for a few meals a week and see how that works for you. And like some of the others here I also do a variety of protein sources at many of my meals. It helps me make sure I get enought protein, and that I don't get too much of one thing (like soy). Glad you joined us! Heather There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. --Albert Einstein ________________________________ Val <vjlawren Sunday, June 14, 2009 1:29:51 PM Re: vegetarians and protein I'm sorry, it looks like I still haven't been clear with my question. Let me try to be clearer. I know how many grams of protein I need to aim for per day - I've been doing it with no problems at all for over seven years; just not as a vegetarian. I'm not at all concerned with calorie intake and especially not with restricting calories; I honestly ignore calories and have no idea how many are in anything. What I'm wondering is, for example, if beans are my protein source in a given meal instead of chicken, and the protein count on beans is something like 7 grams per 1/2 cup... doesn't that mean that instead of, say, three ounces of chicken, I'd need to find room in my stomach for something like two whole cups of beans, plus the browns plus the greens? I'm not asking this from a calorie or weight gain point of view; I'm simply wondering how people can take in that much volume in order to meet the program's protein requirements - or if there's a different way to approach protein *quantity* as a vegetarian. Or if I should just forget about it, give it a try, and let my journal decide. I'm really sorry if this still isn't clear. ~Val , " hollysarian " <hsarian > wrote: > > I've been wondering about that too Val...trying to figure it out how to get the required amount of protein with the least amount of calories as I would also like to loose a bit of weight & certainly don't want to gain (which I did at first)...it seems a bit tricky especially being vegetarian.. .Holly > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 14, 2009 Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Heather, thanks, this is really helpful - glad to know my intuition was on target :-) I really like your half-veggie-half-animal, baby step suggestion. It sounds very practical and doable. And now that I think about it, I'm also guessing that having variety within any one meal would help a lot with the bulk - bean enchiladas also usually have cheese, for example (at least, mine do!) so might not be looking at quite as much beans as I would if they were the only protein. A registered dietitian I used to work with always recommended " evolution, not revolution " when making dietary changes. It's good advice - and it's always stood me in good stead! Thanks again! ~Val , Heather Butler <hawaiihmb wrote: > > Hi Val, yah, I have found the bulk of food tends to be more with veggie protein then with animal protein. With some time you do get used to it. What worked well for me when going vegetarian was to baby step my way towards it (you know how much we love baby steps!), so maybe an option for you to consider is half veggie protein and half animal protein for a few meals a week and see how that works for you. And like some of the others here I also do a variety of protein sources at many of my meals. It helps me make sure I get enought protein, and that I don't get too much of one thing (like soy). > > Glad you joined us! > Heather > There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. > --Albert Einstein > > > > > ________________________________ > Val <vjlawren > > Sunday, June 14, 2009 1:29:51 PM > Re: vegetarians and protein > > > > > > I'm sorry, it looks like I still haven't been clear with my question. Let me try to be clearer. > > I know how many grams of protein I need to aim for per day - I've been doing it with no problems at all for over seven years; just not as a vegetarian. > > I'm not at all concerned with calorie intake and especially not with restricting calories; I honestly ignore calories and have no idea how many are in anything. > > What I'm wondering is, for example, if beans are my protein source in a given meal instead of chicken, and the protein count on beans is something like 7 grams per 1/2 cup... doesn't that mean that instead of, say, three ounces of chicken, I'd need to find room in my stomach for something like two whole cups of beans, plus the browns plus the greens? > > I'm not asking this from a calorie or weight gain point of view; I'm simply wondering how people can take in that much volume in order to meet the program's protein requirements - or if there's a different way to approach protein *quantity* as a vegetarian. Or if I should just forget about it, give it a try, and let my journal decide. > > I'm really sorry if this still isn't clear. > > ~Val > > , " hollysarian " <hsarian@ > wrote: > > > > I've been wondering about that too Val...trying to figure it out how to get the required amount of protein with the least amount of calories as I would also like to loose a bit of weight & certainly don't want to gain (which I did at first)...it seems a bit tricky especially being vegetarian.. .Holly > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 15, 2009 Report Share Posted June 15, 2009 Hi Val, I do the same thing as others here -- mixing up my veggie protein sources. I do currently eat some meat, but most of my meals are vegetarian. For 25 years (including my first 18 months on RR) I didn't eat meat, so I understand about the volume question. Sounds like you do eat cheese. Eggs, too? When I'm having beans or lentils, I usually stop at about a cup or a little more. More than that my body doesn't like <smile>. I usually add something like cheese, or an egg, some nuts, or even some seitan. The beans I eat are also a little part of my brown. I find I simply don't want a full serving of brown *in addition* to beans. Usually about half a serving will complement the beans. This is definitely a journal question! BTW, I find that lentils are a bit denser as a protein for me than beans. I love tofu and tempeh (fermented soy) but try not to eat them more than a couple times a week. I don't like mushrooms at all, so I don't have any feedback re. Quorn. (just the thought makes me shudder, LOL) Let us know what you discover in your veggie adventures! cinzia , " Val " <vjlawren wrote: > > Heather, thanks, this is really helpful - glad to know my intuition was on target :-) > > I really like your half-veggie-half-animal, baby step suggestion. It sounds very practical and doable. And now that I think about it, I'm also guessing that having variety within any one meal would help a lot with the bulk - bean enchiladas also usually have cheese, for example (at least, mine do!) so might not be looking at quite as much beans as I would if they were the only protein. > > A registered dietitian I used to work with always recommended " evolution, not revolution " when making dietary changes. It's good advice - and it's always stood me in good stead! > > Thanks again! > > ~Val > > , Heather Butler <hawaiihmb@> wrote: > > > > Hi Val, yah, I have found the bulk of food tends to be more with veggie protein then with animal protein. With some time you do get used to it. What worked well for me when going vegetarian was to baby step my way towards it (you know how much we love baby steps!), so maybe an option for you to consider is half veggie protein and half animal protein for a few meals a week and see how that works for you. And like some of the others here I also do a variety of protein sources at many of my meals. It helps me make sure I get enought protein, and that I don't get too much of one thing (like soy). > > > > Glad you joined us! > > Heather > > There are two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle. > > --Albert Einstein > > > > > > > > > > ________________________________ > > Val <vjlawren@> > > > > Sunday, June 14, 2009 1:29:51 PM > > Re: vegetarians and protein > > > > > > > > > > > > I'm sorry, it looks like I still haven't been clear with my question. Let me try to be clearer. > > > > I know how many grams of protein I need to aim for per day - I've been doing it with no problems at all for over seven years; just not as a vegetarian. > > > > I'm not at all concerned with calorie intake and especially not with restricting calories; I honestly ignore calories and have no idea how many are in anything. > > > > What I'm wondering is, for example, if beans are my protein source in a given meal instead of chicken, and the protein count on beans is something like 7 grams per 1/2 cup... doesn't that mean that instead of, say, three ounces of chicken, I'd need to find room in my stomach for something like two whole cups of beans, plus the browns plus the greens? > > > > I'm not asking this from a calorie or weight gain point of view; I'm simply wondering how people can take in that much volume in order to meet the program's protein requirements - or if there's a different way to approach protein *quantity* as a vegetarian. Or if I should just forget about it, give it a try, and let my journal decide. > > > > I'm really sorry if this still isn't clear. > > > > ~Val > > > > , " hollysarian " <hsarian@ > wrote: > > > > > > I've been wondering about that too Val...trying to figure it out how to get the required amount of protein with the least amount of calories as I would also like to loose a bit of weight & certainly don't want to gain (which I did at first)...it seems a bit tricky especially being vegetarian.. .Holly > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Cinzia, thanks, this is helpful and reassuring. Yes, I do eat both cheese and eggs. Nice to be reminded that they work well as additions to help solidify the protein amounts! I'm glad you mentioned seitan; I remember making it from scratch a long time ago and thinking it had potential ;-) so I think I'll look into it again! Thanks, ~Val , " cinziatre " <cmarchesani wrote: > > Hi Val, > > I do the same thing as others here -- mixing up my veggie protein sources. I do currently eat some meat, but most of my meals are vegetarian. For 25 years (including my first 18 months on RR) I didn't eat meat, so I understand about the volume question. > > Sounds like you do eat cheese. Eggs, too? > > When I'm having beans or lentils, I usually stop at about a cup or a little more. More than that my body doesn't like <smile>. I usually add something like cheese, or an egg, some nuts, or even some seitan. > > The beans I eat are also a little part of my brown. I find I simply don't want a full serving of brown *in addition* to beans. Usually about half a serving will complement the beans. This is definitely a journal question! > > BTW, I find that lentils are a bit denser as a protein for me than beans. > > I love tofu and tempeh (fermented soy) but try not to eat them more than a couple times a week. I don't like mushrooms at all, so I don't have any feedback re. Quorn. (just the thought makes me shudder, LOL) > > Let us know what you discover in your veggie adventures! cinzia > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 18, 2009 Report Share Posted June 18, 2009 Val I just had buckwheat groats with cheese melted into it alongside spicey sprouted lentils & an array of veggies. It was delicious. I love tempeh also. I roast it in the oven with whole garlic after marinading in olive oil & balsamic vinegar with herbs. I never heard of seitan. Mel , " Val " <vjlawren wrote: > > Cinzia, thanks, this is helpful and reassuring. Yes, I do eat both cheese and eggs. Nice to be reminded that they work well as additions to help solidify the protein amounts! I'm glad you mentioned seitan; I remember making it from scratch a long time ago and thinking it had potential ;-) so I think I'll look into it again! > > Thanks, > ~Val > > , " cinziatre " <cmarchesani@> wrote: > > > > Hi Val, > > > > I do the same thing as others here -- mixing up my veggie protein sources. I do currently eat some meat, but most of my meals are vegetarian. For 25 years (including my first 18 months on RR) I didn't eat meat, so I understand about the volume question. > > > > Sounds like you do eat cheese. Eggs, too? > > > > When I'm having beans or lentils, I usually stop at about a cup or a little more. More than that my body doesn't like <smile>. I usually add something like cheese, or an egg, some nuts, or even some seitan. > > > > The beans I eat are also a little part of my brown. I find I simply don't want a full serving of brown *in addition* to beans. Usually about half a serving will complement the beans. This is definitely a journal question! > > > > BTW, I find that lentils are a bit denser as a protein for me than beans. > > > > I love tofu and tempeh (fermented soy) but try not to eat them more than a couple times a week. I don't like mushrooms at all, so I don't have any feedback re. Quorn. (just the thought makes me shudder, LOL) > > > > Let us know what you discover in your veggie adventures! cinzia > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.