Guest guest Posted March 28, 2000 Report Share Posted March 28, 2000 On the subject of honey, yes there are caring bee-keepers out there as well as caring dairy farmers et al. who look after their animals/insects to the best of their ability and don't indulge in the cruelties of factory farming. I come from a part of Scotland where dairy farming is a tradition, but neither organic nor mass production. They aren't deliberately cruel to their animals but don't see why they shouldn't make a living from them. The point with veganism is that consumers mostly don't know whether the food they buy is linked with bad practices or not. So you can't say 'I will only eat food from happy animals' - you just don't know that when you're buying it. And even well-intentioned producers themselves can't say they're causing no harm, because in a lot of cases we just don't know that either. Think about trying to fit the animal welfare principles behind veganism to producing an animal product without resorting to not doing it. Suppose I have a (hypothetical) dairy farm. I can make sure the cattle I keep are well kept and happy, in pleasant and fairly natural conditions. But I need to take the milk, so I need them to produce calves, and I don't have room to keep all the calves. Half of them are males and useless for milk production anyway. The only thing I can do with them is sell them. How likely is it I can find a buyer that isn't going to kill them? So a vegan can't run a dairy farm. Or buy dairy products. Likewise bees. The most careful bee-keeper can't say no bees will die when s/he takes the honey. They sting when the hive is threatened, and they die when they sting. They're small and fragile so a clumsy move can hurt or kill them. And their honey is stored against future need so we don't know it's definitely surplus. Replacing honey with something else may be poorer nutritionally for them. A vegan can't really be a bee-keeper or buy honey either, can they? So, personally, I agree with the 'official' definition of vegan as someone who neither eats nor uses any product from a living creature. However, I also believe it is a matter of personal conscience where an individual draws the line. After all, is isn't so much the eating that counts from an animal welfare basis (it does with health) but contributing financially to the system that perpetuates it. So if you find it ethically acceptable, buy it, eat it, and if not, don't. You can read other people's arguments for and against, but only you can decide what you believe to be ethical. Recently, some veggie friends bought my kids some cereal bars as a treat. They knew we were vegan, and thought they'd got something suitable, but when I read the ingredients, there was honey in the bars. I went ahead and let my kids eat them, because it didn't make any difference by then whether they got eaten or thrown away. My friends know about the honey now and won't buy that type again - THAT'S the thing that makes the difference. Magda. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2000 Report Share Posted March 28, 2000 Hey Magda! Lovely spiel! You are so right ... if we partake in activities that involve animals that are not free, then we aren't subscribing to the core principles of animal liberation. The animals, bees, fish, everything, once we have " shackled " them, regardless of how kind we are to them, they are not free to do as they please, thus are enslaved. Thanks for the wonderful insight! Vik Vikas Sharma of Operations & Media Carnival Management Web: http://www3.sympatico.ca/carnival Email: carnival Phone kmagda354 [kmagda354] Monday, March 27, 2000 10:52 PM Re: Digest Number 104 kmagda354 <kmagda354 On the subject of honey, yes there are caring bee-keepers out there as well as caring dairy farmers et al. who look after their animals/insects to the best of their ability and don't indulge in the cruelties of factory farming. I come from a part of Scotland where dairy farming is a tradition, but neither organic nor mass production. They aren't deliberately cruel to their animals but don't see why they shouldn't make a living from them. The point with veganism is that consumers mostly don't know whether the food they buy is linked with bad practices or not. So you can't say 'I will only eat food from happy animals' - you just don't know that when you're buying it. And even well-intentioned producers themselves can't say they're causing no harm, because in a lot of cases we just don't know that either. Think about trying to fit the animal welfare principles behind veganism to producing an animal product without resorting to not doing it. Suppose I have a (hypothetical) dairy farm. I can make sure the cattle I keep are well kept and happy, in pleasant and fairly natural conditions. But I need to take the milk, so I need them to produce calves, and I don't have room to keep all the calves. Half of them are males and useless for milk production anyway. The only thing I can do with them is sell them. How likely is it I can find a buyer that isn't going to kill them? So a vegan can't run a dairy farm. Or buy dairy products. Likewise bees. The most careful bee-keeper can't say no bees will die when s/he takes the honey. They sting when the hive is threatened, and they die when they sting. They're small and fragile so a clumsy move can hurt or kill them. And their honey is stored against future need so we don't know it's definitely surplus. Replacing honey with something else may be poorer nutritionally for them. A vegan can't really be a bee-keeper or buy honey either, can they? So, personally, I agree with the 'official' definition of vegan as someone who neither eats nor uses any product from a living creature. However, I also believe it is a matter of personal conscience where an individual draws the line. After all, is isn't so much the eating that counts from an animal welfare basis (it does with health) but contributing financially to the system that perpetuates it. So if you find it ethically acceptable, buy it, eat it, and if not, don't. You can read other people's arguments for and against, but only you can decide what you believe to be ethical. Recently, some veggie friends bought my kids some cereal bars as a treat. They knew we were vegan, and thought they'd got something suitable, but when I read the ingredients, there was honey in the bars. I went ahead and let my kids eat them, because it didn't make any difference by then whether they got eaten or thrown away. My friends know about the honey now and won't buy that type again - THAT'S the thing that makes the difference. Magda. ------ GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! http://click./1/937/3/_/651892/_/954230312/ ------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2000 Report Share Posted March 28, 2000 Magda I must say your post was a refreshing peice of intelligent and an articulate rendering of what I too think of as Veganism. Thanks for writing. Peace, Bliss. kmagda354 <kmagda354 Mon, 27 Mar 2000 19:51:57 -0800 Re: Digest Number 104 > kmagda354 <kmagda354 > > On the subject of honey, yes there are caring bee-keepers out there as well as caring dairy farmers et al. who look after their animals/insects to the best of their ability and don't indulge in the cruelties of factory farming. I come from a part of Scotland where dairy farming is a tradition, but neither organic nor mass production. They aren't deliberately cruel to their animals but don't see why they shouldn't make a living from them. > > The point with veganism is that consumers mostly don't know whether the food they buy is linked with bad practices or not. So you can't say 'I will only eat food from happy animals' - you just don't know that when you're buying it. And even well-intentioned producers themselves can't say they're causing no harm, because in a lot of cases we just don't know that either. > > Think about trying to fit the animal welfare principles behind veganism to producing an animal product without resorting to not doing it. Suppose I have a (hypothetical) dairy farm. I can make sure the cattle I keep are well kept and happy, in pleasant and fairly natural conditions. But I need to take the milk, so I need them to produce calves, and I don't have room to keep all the calves. Half of them are males and useless for milk production anyway. The only thing I can do with them is sell them. How likely is it I can find a buyer that isn't going to kill them? So a vegan can't run a dairy farm. Or buy dairy products. > > Likewise bees. The most careful bee-keeper can't say no bees will die when s/he takes the honey. They sting when the hive is threatened, and they die when they sting. They're small and fragile so a clumsy move can hurt or kill them. And their honey is stored against future need so we don't know it's definitely surplus. Replacing honey with something else may be poorer nutritionally for them. A vegan can't really be a bee-keeper or buy honey either, can they? > > So, personally, I agree with the 'official' definition of vegan as someone who neither eats nor uses any product from a living creature. However, I also believe it is a matter of personal conscience where an individual draws the line. After all, is isn't so much the eating that counts from an animal welfare basis (it does with health) but contributing financially to the system that perpetuates it. So if you find it ethically acceptable, buy it, eat it, and if not, don't. You can read other people's arguments for and against, but only you can decide what you believe to be ethical. > > Recently, some veggie friends bought my kids some cereal bars as a treat. They knew we were vegan, and thought they'd got something suitable, but when I read the ingredients, there was honey in the bars. I went ahead and let my kids eat them, because it didn't make any difference by then whether they got eaten or thrown away. My friends know about the honey now and won't buy that type again - THAT'S the thing that makes the difference. > > Magda. > > > > > ------ > GET A NEXTCARD VISA, in 30 seconds! Get rates as low as 0.0% > Intro or 9.9% Fixed APR and no hidden fees. Apply NOW! > <A HREF= " http://click./1/937/3/_/651892/_/954230312/ " TARGET= " _new " ><FONT COLOR= " BLUE " >http://click./1/937/3/_/651892/_/954230312/</FONT></A> > ------ > > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > <A HREF= " /community/ " TARGET= " _new " ><FONT COLOR= " BLUE " >/community/</FONT></A> > > -- _____________ Free email services provided by http://www.goodkarmamail.com powered by OutBlaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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