Guest guest Posted September 22, 2001 Report Share Posted September 22, 2001 Hey. I seem to be having a slight problem with my mother. Over a year ago, I stopped eating land animals (every type of meat but fish/seafood). I kept the fish/seafood in my diet because at that point I didn't think I'd be able to give it up. I made a deal with my mom that if I kept marine animals in my diet, & ate healthfully, she'd allow me to become a " vegetarian " , and she's been really accepting of my choices. Since then, I've gotten smarter (I now know I can pass on the fish) gave up animal skins & animal-tested products, & this past March, gave up milk & reduced my consumption of marine animals/eggs/dairy- I basically only eat them when my mom makes me. My mother eats less meat & wears/buys less leather than she used to due to my influence, buys (and sometimes eat and likes) meat subsitutes, and not only was accepting of my giving up milk (as long as I get enough calcium), she also drinks my soymilk. So whats the problem? Though she knows how inportant animal rights/veg*anism is to me, she's utterly convinced that I NEED fish/seafood/eggs/dairy in my diet. I try to tell her about what the animals go through, and how unhealthy animal foods are, but she reminds me of our agreement and says that she's heard it all before, that I'm an extremeist, and that I shouldn't push my beliefs on to other people or force them to change! It's not like I'm preaching, or giving 10 minute speeches on the subject, most of the time I'm just reciting an interesting quote I found in a book. I'm not trying to convert her, I'm trying to convice her to let me convert! Even if I could just give up the fish/seafood, at least I could call myself a vegetarian, & reduce suffering. What's really irritating is she'll get out some non-vegan food (ie, cheese enchiladas for dinner, or eggs for breakfast), and in order to get me to eat it (i'm not picky, but she knows I don't want to eat it), she'll say " It's ok, no animals were harmed! " I just roll my eyes and eat the enchiladas, eggs, ect., because I know that if I protest, she'll go into one of her lectures! I've considered putting my foot down and telling her " I'm giving up animal foods, & I don't care what you think! " But I'm afraid that if I do that, she'll think I'm being defiant, thus straining our relationship (we have a great relationship actually, really the only thing we argue about is my ethical beliefs). Or she'll make me eat meat again. I'll be 18 in four months, and while I will be an official adult capable of making my own decisions, I will still be living in her house, under her rules. What's really weird is that she dosen't seem to say anything when I buy vegan products, but when I occassionally ask her to buy a vegan product for me, she goes into her little rant. What should I do? Should I risk it & put my foot down, tell her I'm going vegan, & she can't stop me? Should I do it when I'm 18? Am I too passive? Should I wait till I'm out of the house to go vegan? Any help you can give is appreciated. Thank you. -Kelly Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Messenger. http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2001 Report Share Posted September 22, 2001 Hi Kelly; I read your story about your mother's attitude and your effort to move into veganism. I think you are doing really well, and have made tremendous progress. I think you sound like a very kind and intelligent young woman, and it makes me feel very proud! :-) I hope you hang in there with it because I believe you are right... a vegan diet IS much healthier, better for the environment and kinder to animals. It sounds to me like you've been very patient, and if you can keep on being patient...patient AND gently insisting on what you want. It is part of her growing up as a parent, just as much as it is part of your growing up into adulthood. Here are a few more comments from me: >....but she reminds me of our agreement... Did you have a time frame on your agreement? An undated agreement is always open for re-negotiation at all times. If you two agreed on a time frame, like 6 weeks or 6 months or something for the plan, that would be different. >and says that she's heard it all before, Oh? I'd reply " Oh? Well, if that is so, you tell me why it is good to live a vegan life style then. " Getting the oponent to take one's own side like that can make them actually hear it for the first time, IF they are willing to repeat what they have supposedly heard! :-) >that I'm an extremeist, Ouch! Name calling is a " foul " ! Name calling is a technique used by people who lashing out, who are not in control of themselves. This is an example of her accusing you of one of her own faults. If it were my Mom speaking to me, I'd say " Mom, please speak to me with respect. Name calling is disrespectful. I can understand how my position may seem extreme from your perspective. I can accept that as your perspective. At the same time, I would prefer that you see it (and me) as balanced and an appropriate position given the state of awareness of health and ethics in our present world. I'd like you to understand and respect my position even if you chose a different one for yourself. " >and that I >shouldn't push my beliefs on to other people or force >them to change! She is feeling guilty of pushing her beliefs on you but trying to accuse you of it to avoid admitting her own guilt to herself! So often, when people are feeling out of control in their lives, they accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of. Her reaction is typical of a person who feels out of control. She's having trouble giving you the space you need to do your own thing to be your own person. She probably still thinks she has to still be one step ahead and in control of you like she was when you were a kid. It is a common source of conflict for parents and teens. I'm not saying this in anyway to try to excuse her, not at all. I only am saying this to hopefully help you get a bit more perspective on where she is probably coming from. I'd say she's less in control of herself than you are of yourself at this time. You may actually be the more mature one at this time. >It's not like I'm preaching, or giving >10 minute speeches on the subject, Kelly, I'm going to suggest to her that you do exactly that... in the folllowing way! :-) The offer goes something like this " Mom, I understand that you have concerns about veganism. I care about what you think and how you feel. (That will help her relax) At the same time, I have serious concerns about NOT being vegan. I would like us to work out our disagreement and work out a plan that we can both live with, so that we both feel good about what we are doing. As we seem to have been having trouble working this out in a casual way, I propose a formal sort of problem-solving procedure. We set a date with each other for 20 minutes each day, after dinner maybe or whenever it works for both of us. We set the timer for 10 minutes. During that time, one of us presents their points while the other listens. When the dinger goes, that persons stops talking and the other person has their turn of 10 minutes while the other person listens quietly. We can each take notes if we want while the other person is speaking, but no interuptions are allowed. At the end of the 20 minutes, we stop talking and come back to the same process the next day. We do that until we have reached an agreement. I am suggesting this process to help us both feel heard, and to keep calm, because I think we both have important, strong feelings about this that I want us to work this out so that we can keep on building our relationship and feeling good with each other. " If she won't co-operate with this, you can ask a mediator to sit in on the discussion to help you get your full time. >I'm not trying to convert her, I'm trying to >convice her to let me convert! Sure. That's totally fair. Possibly, she feels more involved than that. I think she may be having trouble letting you two make separate choices. Another possibility is that she sees your points but because she likes to eat animal products, is resisting accepting them for herself. Having to change what she is doing to support you in what you want to do, only reminds her of her own hypocrisy and inner conflict about doing what she likes compared to doing what she knows is right. Again, I am not saying this to excuse her... definitely, she has been messing up in how she has been treating you over this. I am only offering this perspective to maybe help you see where she may be coming from. >Even if I could just >give up the fish/seafood, at least I could call myself >a vegetarian, & reduce suffering. For sure! If you would like more information about the health dangers of fish/seafood, I can recommend this site: http://www.pcrm.org/health/Commentary/commentary9807.html It's a web article about the dangers of eating fish, completely from the health point of view. The PCRM site has many articles about the dangers and contamination problems with marine meat. >What's really irritating is she'll get out some >non-vegan food (ie, cheese enchiladas for dinner, or >eggs for breakfast), and in order to get me to eat it >(i'm not picky, but she knows I don't want to eat it), >she'll say " It's ok, no animals were harmed! " That's a common misconception. Too bad it's not true. >I just >roll my eyes and eat the enchiladas, eggs, ect., >because I know that if I protest, she'll go into one >of her lectures! Yah, I can certainly see how irritating that would be. You aren't being, or feeling heard. I think the time has definitely come for a serious, organized sit-down discussion where she agrees to actually listen. If you aren't feeling up to the demands of preparing such a presentation yet, I'd suggest getting a local vegan dietitian to speak for you. You and your Mom can go together to her office. >I've considered putting my foot down and telling her > " I'm giving up animal foods, & I don't care what you >think! " Well, you CAN do that. Possibly it would be good for her to see that you are THAT serious about it. I imagine she would deal with it better than you fear. If you have generally had a good relationship, I think it would survive a clear drawing of the line like that, just fine. She might feel a little hurt at first, although, she might also admire you for your self-confidence. It's hard to say what would happen. Therefore, I would definitely recommend using these other communication-enhancing techniques that I have recommended using. If you give them your best shot and she's still being unsupportive, you can always chose later to use the drastic " draw the line " technique. It just depends how patient you want to be. Sometimes people can get so stuck in their thinking, it takes a good shove to get them to budge... too bad when that happens, but it can be a necessary part of being an adult at times, often especially with those with whom we are closest. >But I'm afraid that if I do that, she'll think >I'm being defiant, thus straining our relationship (we >have a great relationship actually, really the only >thing we argue about is my ethical beliefs). Ah! Is she more concerned with your health than ethics? If that is the case, I think a serious effort at getting to know everything you can about the health aspects may help you win her over. >Or she'll make me eat meat again. How would she " make " you? Would she starve you, tie you to a chair and force-feed you? Have you learned to do any vegan cooking yourself yet? How much of the food preparation do you do? >I'll be 18 in four months, and >while I will be an official adult capable of making my >own decisions, I will still be living in her house, >under her rules. That's fine. While it is her house, unless she thinks of herself as a despotic parent, I think she owes you the consideration to listen to what you have to say. I think it may largely be up to you how much you are willing to put into convincing her. >What's really weird is that she >dosen't seem to say anything when I buy vegan >products, but when I occassionally ask her to buy a >vegan product for me, she goes into her little rant. That says to me that she may be simply feeling overloaded in her life. Is she a single mother? Having to go out of the way to get something different for you may be seeming like more than she can handle. Or, her having to buy the product for you may be pushing her against her internal conflict which she is trying to ignore, which is why she explodes. I think that reaction is very immature and irresponsible on her part. I'm sorry that you are having to deal with that. >What should I do? I think you are doing the right thing by writing to us on this list! I think eating a vegan diet is the right thing to do. I think you are doing the right thing by seeking a peaceful, relationship-building approach to work this out with her. I hope you find a way that will work for both you and your Mom. I think she is a lucky lady to have such a caring and intelligent daughter! >Should I risk it & put my foot down, >tell her I'm going vegan, & she can't stop me? Technically, that is the case. If she were to actually try to force you to eat anything against your will, she would be risking being charged with child abuse. It may be necessary for you to mention this to her. If you do, I would suggest being very gentle about it. It is a very strong statement and will seem all that much stronger if you say it calmly. It also has the potential to hurt her. Saying it quietly and gently will make it easier to hear. Rather than " rubbing her nose " in your adulthood by saying " You can't stop me! " which sounds a little desperate and very challenging (like waving a red flag to a bull!), I'd suggest saying something more like " This is my life and my choice to make. I would like you to support me in it please. As you know, I have the right to do it without your agreement, and I would prefer to have you on my side. " >Should I do it when I'm 18? Well, it's up to you. I'd ask for her support and propose an organized discussion right away, and get however many experts necessary to stand up for you now. If you write to the 5,000 doctors at the PCRM (Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine), one of them may agree to write a note to her for you. www.pcrm.com >Am I too passive? I doubt it. A person who is " too " passive, wouldn't be making the switch to veganism at all, they'd just go along with what Mom says and stay stuck in status quo! I get the impression that you are just being careful and loving, considerate and respectful while at the same time feeling a little desperate at how hard your Mom is making this. >Should I wait till I'm out of the house to go vegan? I really hope you can eat the way you want where you are now, and that your Mom can find a constructive and loving way to be OK with that. >Any help you can give is appreciated. Thank you. I hope what I have offered is helpful to you Kelly. I'd be happy to write a letter to her on your behalf if you would like. I myself am 46 years old mother of an 18 year old girl, who I raised vegan from toddlerhood. She is bright, active, beautiful, popular, talented and accomplished. She has taught me a lot about being a parent. I hope to hear from you again Kelly. Deborah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2001 Report Share Posted September 22, 2001 Deborah, your response to Kelly was thoughtful and well-measured. It was so kind of you to take the time to reply to all of her concerns. Kelly: do you have the means to pay for your own food and prepare it for yourself? I don't think that your mother could argue much if she weren't made to pay for your vegan food or to take the time to plan meals for you. Good luck! You're a compassionate person and you're doing the right thing. Don't be discouraged. xxk@xx Deborah Pageau [Deborah_Pageau] 22 September 2001 04:08 Re: I need advice please... Hi Kelly; I read your story about your mother's attitude and your effort to move into veganism. I think you are doing really well, and have made tremendous progress. I think you sound like a very kind and intelligent young woman, and it makes me feel very proud! :-) I hope you hang in there with it because I believe you are right... a vegan diet IS much healthier, better for the environment and kinder to animals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2001 Report Share Posted September 22, 2001 Congratulations Kelly on your decision to go vegan. In addition to all of Deborah's great suggestions, you might want to pick up a book on vegan nutrition to show to your mother. Reading the words straight from an actual expert on the subject may help to convince her that a well-balanced vegan diet is perfectly healthy--more healthy than a meat-based diet. Some resources on this subject are available here: http://www.veganoutreach.org/health/ It's also a great idea to help your mother prepare meals. If you take an active role in meal-planning and preparation, she may be more open to letting you make whatever you want. And frequently the problem is simply that the parent simply can't imagine what a vegan diet consists of! Vegan cookbooks are a big help; one of my favorites is " Tofu Cookery " by Louise Hagler, which has a large number of easy to make tofu-based substitutes for a wide variety of meals. Good luck! And let us all know how it goes! :-) -- Tim Moore - " Kelly Bradford " <shadowboxer226 Friday, September 21, 2001 8:31 PM I need advice please... > Hey. > > I seem to be having a slight problem with my mother. > Over a year ago, I stopped eating land animals (every > type of meat but fish/seafood). I kept the > fish/seafood in my diet because at that point I didn't > think I'd be able to give it up. I made a deal with my > mom that if I kept marine animals in my diet, & ate > healthfully, she'd allow me to become a " vegetarian " , > and she's been really accepting of my choices. Since > then, I've gotten smarter (I now know I can pass on > the fish) gave up animal skins & animal-tested > products, & this past March, gave up milk & reduced my > consumption of marine animals/eggs/dairy- I basically > only eat them when my mom makes me. My mother eats > less meat & wears/buys less leather than she used to > due to my influence, buys (and sometimes eat and > likes) meat subsitutes, and not only was accepting of > my giving up milk (as long as I get enough calcium), > she also drinks my soymilk. > > So whats the problem? Though she knows how inportant > animal rights/veg*anism is to me, she's utterly > convinced that I NEED fish/seafood/eggs/dairy in my > diet. I try to tell her about what the animals go > through, and how unhealthy animal foods are, but she > reminds me of our agreement and says that she's heard > it all before, that I'm an extremeist, and that I > shouldn't push my beliefs on to other people or force > them to change! It's not like I'm preaching, or giving > 10 minute speeches on the subject, most of the time > I'm just reciting an interesting quote I found in a > book. I'm not trying to convert her, I'm trying to > convice her to let me convert! Even if I could just > give up the fish/seafood, at least I could call myself > a vegetarian, & reduce suffering. > > What's really irritating is she'll get out some > non-vegan food (ie, cheese enchiladas for dinner, or > eggs for breakfast), and in order to get me to eat it > (i'm not picky, but she knows I don't want to eat it), > she'll say " It's ok, no animals were harmed! " I just > roll my eyes and eat the enchiladas, eggs, ect., > because I know that if I protest, she'll go into one > of her lectures! > > I've considered putting my foot down and telling her > " I'm giving up animal foods, & I don't care what you > think! " But I'm afraid that if I do that, she'll think > I'm being defiant, thus straining our relationship (we > have a great relationship actually, really the only > thing we argue about is my ethical beliefs). Or she'll > make me eat meat again. I'll be 18 in four months, and > while I will be an official adult capable of making my > own decisions, I will still be living in her house, > under her rules. What's really weird is that she > dosen't seem to say anything when I buy vegan > products, but when I occassionally ask her to buy a > vegan product for me, she goes into her little rant. > > What should I do? Should I risk it & put my foot down, > tell her I'm going vegan, & she can't stop me? Should > I do it when I'm 18? Am I too passive? Should I wait > till I'm out of the house to go vegan? Any help you > can give is appreciated. Thank you. > > -Kelly > > > > Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Messenger. http://im. > > > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > /community/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 22, 2001 Report Share Posted September 22, 2001 kelly, i had/have the same problem. my mom didnt really have a problem with the vegatarianism thing, but one morning i said i would no longer be eating dairy or egg products, she threw a fit, and had that whole unpleasently overprotective mother thing going on, so i decided to hold off, this being earlier this summer, for college. now im at college and as vegan as i please, however my mom still doenst know, so when i get back im thinking of telling her this, and im hoping she wont protest(we have a very close relationship to) i guess the most important thing is to just by vegan products for now, hopefully your mother(like im hoping my mom will) warm up to it over time- otherwise you may jsut have to hurt her sensabilities, which in any parent child relationship is neccessary at some point. i try to lok at it this way:of all the disagreements you could have, i think this ones probably one of the best ones(at least on your part) afterall you could be a drug addict or worse. anyway you have all my support. -mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2001 Report Share Posted September 25, 2001 Hey Barbara: Thank you so much! Not just you, but to everyone who helped give me advice! I really appreciate it! >Did you have a time frame on your agreement? An undated agreement is always open for re-negotiation at all times. If you two agreed on a time frame, like 6 weeks or 6 months or something for the plan, that would be different....> I never thought of this, but no, there was no time frame. I'll bring that up. >Oh? I'd reply " Oh? Well, if that is so, you tell me why it is good to live a vegan life style then. " ...> That's a good idea! >Ouch! Name calling is a " foul " ! Name calling is a technique used by people who lashing out, who are not in control of themselves. This is an example of her accusing you of one of her own faults. If it were my Mom speaking to me, I'd say " Mom, please speak to me with respect. Name calling is disrespectful. I can understand how my position may seem extreme from your perspective. I can accept that as your perspective. At the same time, I would prefer that you see it (and me) as balanced and an appropriate position given the state of awareness of health and ethics in our present world. I'd like you to understand and respect my position even if you chose a different one for yourself. " ....> Good idea, what if she says " Well, you're not respecting my opinion! " ? Although I try to... >She is feeling guilty of pushing her beliefs on you but trying to accuse you of it to avoid admitting her own guilt to herself! So often, when people are feeling out of control in their lives, they accuse others of what they themselves are guilty of. Her reaction is typical of a person who feels out of control. She's having trouble giving you the space you need to do your own thing to be your own person. She probably still thinks she has to still be one step ahead and in control of you like she was when you were a kid....> I agree with all of this. >Kelly, I'm going to suggest to her that you do exactly that... in the folllowing way! :-)...> This is tempting, but it does sound a bit extensive. Plus she may think that I won't listen when it's her turn to talk for 10 min, or that when it's my turn to talk, everything I say is all slanted crap that the organizations want me to believe (my pro-vegan info has allready been accused of being this...). It's not like I don't get where she's coming from. I went " veggie " in Jr. High for a bout a year, but eventually gave it up. During that time, I thought veganism was extreme and unhealthy, and I didn't know anything about animal rights or animal testing and stuff, I think I still ate gelatin! I remember a friend once told me that Skittles have cow hooves in them, & I thought she was kidding! I've gotten smarter since then... >Having to change what she is doing to support you in what you want to do, only reminds her of her own hypocrisy and inner conflict about doing what she likes compared to doing what she knows is right....> I think so too. One of the differences between me and my mother is that if you were to tell both of us, say, what animals went through during vivisection, I'd go out & start buying products not tested on animals, while she'll comment on how horrible it is, but still continue to brush her teeth with Crest, wash her clothes in Tide, and so on. I once asked her why this is. She said something along the lines that it's not that she has no compassion (she really is compassionate), it's that she dosen't think she has the willpower to do it, and that she does have good intentions. I wanted to ask her how hard is it to pass on the Tide, and buy something more humane? Needless to say, I buy my own toothpaste, and have, on occasion bought my own damn laundry soap for whenever I wash my clothes. How many teenagers do you know who'll spend 6 bucks on powder to make their clothes clean? > If you would like more information about the health dangers of fish/seafood, I can recommend this site: http://www.pcrm.org/health/Commentary/commentary9807.html...> Thank you! I've been waiting so long to find something that just dealt with fish, everything else covers all types of meat! I'll print that out and show it to her! >I'd suggest getting a local vegan dietitian to speak for you. You and your Mom can go together to her office....> I've really considered this, I even know of one in my area. I've even decided to become a dietician, and specialize in vegetarian diets. A while ago, I was thinking about how the only way I could make my mom believe me when I told her that veganism was healthy was to become an expert in nutrition. But that's not the only reason. Being the only person to raise my hand in 11th grade biology when my teacher asked " Who will not be disecting the frog today? " opened my eyes to the fact that I will not be able to dissect animals in veterinary school, thus, squashing the dream I'd had of being a vet, and causing me to find some other career path. I've also found that I have a keen interest in nutrition, and enjoy advising people on good nutritional habits. I can recall a time where I was talking to a teacher about, I don't know, plant sources of calcium, or why you should drink orange juice when you eat foods rich in iron, or something like that, and she was like, " You should consider becoming a nutritionist! " >Ah! Is she more concerned with your health than ethics? If that is the case, I think a serious effort at getting to know everything you can about the health aspects may help you win her over....> When I said that we mainly argue over my ethical beliefs, I meant that it goes beyond diet. We argue about stuff from why I need/don't need dairy in my diet, to whether or not zoos and aquariums are humane. Both of which center around my ethical beilefs. We do agree on a few things, like how animals shouldn't be used in circuses because it's inhumane. Sometimes I wonder why it is that she can see the cruelty in the fact that elephants are whipped with bullhoooks to make them stand on their heads, and tigers are beaten & kept in tiny cages their whole lives to make them jump, but at the same time she can't (or won't) understand that laying chickens have thier beaks seared off and are starved for days on end to increase egg production, or that dairy cows are constantly impregnated, only to have thier babies stolen from them hours after birth & given " cute " names like " veal " , and " dinner " . >How would she " make " you? Would she starve you, tie you to a chair and force-feed you?...> No, but it is her house, and her rules, and I am the child, and she is the parent. >Have you learned to do any vegan cooking yourself yet? How much of the food preparation do you do?...> We'll make dinner together a few days a week, or I make dinner for myself, & she'll make dinner for herself. Mostly it's frozen heat-in-the-microwave-for-x-minutes-or-heat-in-a-pan-with-oil- & -thrown-in-some-v\ eggies type of meals, but I recently have began looking in to the real recipe type meals. > I think it may largely be up to you how much you are willing to put into convincing her....> Yeah it is, it's getting her to listen, belive, & think about what I'm saying that's the problem. >That says to me that she may be simply feeling overloaded in her life. Is she a single mother? Having to go out of the way to get something different for you may be seeming like more than she can handle....> Yes she is. My parents divorced when I was fourteen, which is actually the reason why I gave up my first bout with " vegetarianism " - it just got too hard learning to deal with that (although she'd prepared me before hand), and live between two houses, and make sure I had something to eat at both places. They maintain a friendly relationship, and I see my dad alot & spend the night at his house twice a week, which I really like. My dad, supportive & caring that he is, is different than my mom is on vega*anism. Like, I'll tell him I don't wanna eat eggs any more, and he'll start telling me if a certain food has eggs in it! We don't argue about it. It's not that he doesn't care, I think it's more of he knows that this is important and that I'll take care of myself, more than my mom. I've given thought to proposing that I eat vegan at my dad's, but maintain the diet I have now when i'm at my mom's or vice versa. It might not be totally ideal for me, but at least I'm doing something for my health, the animals, and the environment, and my mom sees that I'm getting the " necessary " animal foods. It's a step in the right direction. The only problem is that vegan foods are normally a lot more readily available at my moms (she's more open to going to health food stores than dad), making it, in some ways, easier to eat vegan there. But what if, because she's not at my dads with me to supervise what I eat, will she trust that I'll eat dairy/eggs? I could tell her I'm eating eggs & dairy, but then not,but that'd be lying- which is wrong. But if I'm just vegan at my dad's does that mean that every meal I sit down to with my mom will contain fish,eggs, or dairy, because she know's I'll " willingly " eat it? Do I really wanna get stuck in another agreement? What if I come visit her after I move out & I'm a full-fledged vegan, & have to tell her I won't eat non-vegan foods just cause I'm at her house? Why can't I have normal teenage-girl problems, like worrying about what on earth I'm ever gonna do if I (gasp!) run out of lip liner,or if (double gasp!) so- & -so dosen't ask me out to the dance next Thursday? Nevermind the fact that I don't wear lipliner, or that I don't have guys flocking around me, or that I haven't been to a dance in 4 years, and don't plan on going to one till my senior prom in June. What if my school does what it did last year & has the senior prom at the nearest marine animal jail - I mean oops! sorry! - aquarium? I'll deal with that in June... >What should I do? <I think eating a vegan diet is the right thing to do. I think you are doing the right thing by seeking a peaceful, relationship-building approach to work this out with her...> Ditto, on both accounts. <I hope you find a way that will work for both you and your Mom. I think she is a lucky lady to have such a caring and intelligent daughter!...> Me too, and thank you! <If you do, I would suggest being very gentle about it. It is a very strong statement and will seem all that much stronger if you say it calmly. It also has the potential to hurt her. Saying it quietly and gently will make it easier to hear. Rather than " rubbing her nose " in your adulthood by saying " You can't stop me! " which sounds a little desperate and very challenging (like waving a red flag to a bull!), I'd suggest saying something more like " This is my life and my choice to make. I would like you to support me in it please. As you know, I have the right to do it without your agreement, and I would prefer to have you on my side. " > Yeah. If I do this, I'd think it's be better if I did it slowly, tell her (nicely) that I'm giving up marine animals. The whole 'I'm going vegan' thing might be too much of a shock. There allways in the risk of her saying " Well, ok, if that's what you wanna do. Just as long as you eat enough dairy & eggs! " That might not be much better! <If you write to the 5,000 doctors at the PCRM (Physician's Committee for Responsible Medicine), one of them may agree to write a note to her for you. www.pcrm.com> Hmmm...should I really ask them for that though? I can hear her now: (suprised tone) " You had a group of doctors write me a letter about why I should let you give up eggs, dairy & fish? " Although it might convince her of just how important this is to me. <I get the impression that you are just being careful and loving, considerate and respectful while at the same time feeling a little desperate at how hard your Mom is making this.> Yes. >Any help you can give is appreciated. Thank you. <I'd be happy to write a letter to her on your behalf if you would like.> No, you don't have to do that! <I myself am 46 years old mother of an 18 year old girl, who I raised vegan from toddlerhood. She is bright, active, beautiful, popular, talented and accomplished. She has taught me a lot about being a parent.> She's lucky, and it sounds like you are too. A million thank yous to you for your help! -Kelly --- Deborah Pageau <Deborah_Pageau wrote: > Hi Kelly; > > I read your story about your mother's attitude and > your effort to > move into veganism. I think you are doing really > well, and have > made tremendous progress. I think you sound like a > very kind and > intelligent young woman, and it makes me feel very > proud! :-) I > hope you hang in there with it because I believe you > are right... > a vegan diet IS much healthier, better for the > environment and > kinder to animals. > > It sounds to me like you've been very patient, and > if you can > keep on being patient...patient AND gently insisting > on what you > want. It is part of her growing up as a parent, > just as much as > it is part of your growing up into adulthood. Here > are a few > more comments from me: > > > >....but she reminds me of our agreement... > > Did you have a time frame on your agreement? An > undated > agreement is always open for re-negotiation at all > times. If you > two agreed on a time frame, like 6 weeks or 6 months > or something > for the plan, that would be different. > > > >and says that she's heard it all before, > > Oh? I'd reply " Oh? Well, if that is so, you tell > me why it is > good to live a vegan life style then. " > > Getting the oponent to take one's own side like that > can make > them actually hear it for the first time, IF they > are willing to > repeat what they have supposedly heard! :-) > > >that I'm an extremeist, > > Ouch! Name calling is a " foul " ! Name calling is a > technique > used by people who lashing out, who are not in > control of > themselves. This is an example of her accusing you > of one of her > own faults. > > If it were my Mom speaking to me, I'd say " Mom, > please speak to > me with respect. Name calling is disrespectful. I > can > understand how my position may seem extreme from > your > perspective. I can accept that as your perspective. > At the same > time, I would prefer that you see it (and me) as > balanced and an > appropriate position given the state of awareness of > health and > ethics in our present world. I'd like you to > understand and > respect my position even if you chose a different > one for > yourself. " > > >and that I > >shouldn't push my beliefs on to other people or > force > >them to change! > > She is feeling guilty of pushing her beliefs on you > but trying to > accuse you of it to avoid admitting her own guilt to > herself! So > often, when people are feeling out of control in > their lives, > they accuse others of what they themselves are > guilty of. Her > reaction is typical of a person who feels out of > control. She's > having trouble giving you the space you need to do > your own thing > to be your own person. She probably still thinks > she has to > still be one step ahead and in control of you like > she was when > you were a kid. It is a common source of conflict > for parents > and teens. I'm not saying this in anyway to try to > excuse her, > not at all. I only am saying this to hopefully help > you get a > bit more perspective on where she is probably coming > from. I'd > say she's less in control of herself than you are of > yourself at > this time. You may actually be the more mature one > at this time. > > >It's not like I'm preaching, or giving > >10 minute speeches on the subject, > > Kelly, I'm going to suggest to her that you do > exactly that... in > the folllowing way! :-) > > The offer goes something like this " Mom, I > understand that you > have concerns about veganism. I care about what you > think and > how you feel. (That will help her relax) At the > same time, I > have serious concerns about NOT being vegan. I > would like us to > work out our disagreement and work out a plan that > we can both > live with, so that we both feel good about what we > are doing. As > we seem to have been having trouble working this out > in a casual > way, I propose a formal sort of problem-solving > procedure. We > set a date with each other for 20 minutes each day, > after dinner > maybe or whenever it works for both of us. We set > the timer for > 10 minutes. During that time, one of us presents > their points > while the other listens. When the dinger goes, that > persons > stops talking and the other person has their turn of > 10 minutes > while the other person listens quietly. We can each > take notes > if we want while the other person is speaking, but > no > interuptions are allowed. At the end of the 20 > minutes, we stop > talking and come back to the same process the next > day. We do > that until we have reached an agreement. I am > suggesting this > process to help us both feel heard, and to keep > calm, because I > think we both have important, strong feelings about > this that I > want us to work this out so that we can keep on > building our > relationship and feeling good with each other. " > > If she won't co-operate with this, you can ask a > mediator to sit > in on the discussion to help you get your full time. > > >I'm not trying to convert her, I'm trying to > >convice her to let me convert! > > Sure. That's totally fair. > > Possibly, she feels more involved than that. I > think she may be > having trouble letting you two make separate > choices. > > Another possibility is that she sees your points but > because she > likes to eat animal products, is resisting accepting > them for > herself. Having to change what she is doing to > support you in > what you want to do, only reminds her of her own > hypocrisy and > inner conflict about doing what she likes compared > to doing what > she knows is right. Again, I am not saying this to > excuse her... > definitely, she has been messing up in how she has > been treating > you over this. I am only offering this perspective > to maybe help > you see where she may be coming from. > > >Even if I could just > >give up the fish/seafood, at least I could call > myself > >a vegetarian, & reduce suffering. > > For sure! If you would like more information about > the === message truncated === Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Messenger. http://im. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted September 25, 2001 Report Share Posted September 25, 2001 Oh no! Who in the hell is Barbara? I meant Deborah, I'm sorry! -Kelly --- Kelly Bradford <shadowboxer226 wrote: > Hey Barbara: > > Thank you so much! Not just you, but to everyone who > helped give me advice! I really appreciate it! > > >Did you have a time frame on your agreement? An > undated > agreement is always open for re-negotiation at all > times. If you > two agreed on a time frame, like 6 weeks or 6 months > or something > for the plan, that would be different....> > > I never thought of this, but no, there was no time > frame. I'll bring that up. > > > >Oh? I'd reply " Oh? Well, if that is so, you tell > me > why it is > good to live a vegan life style then. " ...> > > That's a good idea! > > >Ouch! Name calling is a " foul " ! Name calling is a > technique > used by people who lashing out, who are not in > control > of > themselves. This is an example of her accusing you > of > one of her > own faults. > > If it were my Mom speaking to me, I'd say " Mom, > please > speak to > me with respect. Name calling is disrespectful. I > can > understand how my position may seem extreme from > your > perspective. I can accept that as your perspective. > > At the same > time, I would prefer that you see it (and me) as > balanced and an > appropriate position given the state of awareness of > health and > ethics in our present world. I'd like you to > understand and > respect my position even if you chose a different > one > for > yourself. " ....> > > Good idea, what if she says " Well, you're not > respecting my opinion! " ? Although I try to... > > >She is feeling guilty of pushing her beliefs on you > but trying to > accuse you of it to avoid admitting her own guilt to > herself! So > often, when people are feeling out of control in > their > lives, > they accuse others of what they themselves are > guilty > of. Her > reaction is typical of a person who feels out of > control. She's > having trouble giving you the space you need to do > your own thing > to be your own person. She probably still thinks > she > has to > still be one step ahead and in control of you like > she > was when > you were a kid....> > > I agree with all of this. > > >Kelly, I'm going to suggest to her that you do > exactly that... in > the folllowing way! :-)...> > > This is tempting, but it does sound a bit extensive. > Plus she may think that I won't listen when it's her > turn to talk for 10 min, or that when it's my turn > to > talk, everything I say is all slanted crap that the > organizations want me to believe (my pro-vegan info > has allready been accused of being this...). It's > not > like I don't get where she's coming from. I went > " veggie " in Jr. High for a bout a year, but > eventually > gave it up. During that time, I thought veganism was > extreme and unhealthy, and I didn't know anything > about animal rights or animal testing and stuff, I > think I still ate gelatin! I remember a friend once > told me that Skittles have cow hooves in them, & I > thought she was kidding! I've gotten smarter since > then... > > >Having to change what she is doing to support you > in > what you want to do, only reminds her of her own > hypocrisy and > inner conflict about doing what she likes compared > to > doing what > she knows is right....> > > I think so too. One of the differences between me > and > my mother is that if you were to tell both of us, > say, > what animals went through during vivisection, I'd go > out & start buying products not tested on animals, > while she'll comment on how horrible it is, but > still > continue to brush her teeth with Crest, wash her > clothes in Tide, and so on. I once asked her why > this > is. She said something along the lines that it's not > that she has no compassion (she really is > compassionate), it's that she dosen't think she has > the willpower to do it, and that she does have good > intentions. I wanted to ask her how hard is it to > pass > on the Tide, and buy something more humane? Needless > to say, I buy my own toothpaste, and have, on > occasion > bought my own damn laundry soap for whenever I wash > my > clothes. How many teenagers do you know who'll spend > 6 > bucks on powder to make their clothes clean? > > > If you would like more information about the > health > dangers of fish/seafood, I can recommend this site: > > http://www.pcrm.org/health/Commentary/commentary9807.html...> > > Thank you! I've been waiting so long to find > something > that just dealt with fish, everything else covers > all > types of meat! I'll print that out and show it to > her! > > >I'd suggest getting a local vegan dietitian to > speak for you. You and your Mom can go together to > her office....> > > I've really considered this, I even know of one in > my > area. I've even decided to become a dietician, and > specialize in vegetarian diets. A while ago, I was > thinking about how the only way I could make my mom > believe me when I told her that veganism was healthy > was to become an expert in nutrition. But that's not > the only reason. Being the only person to raise my > hand in 11th grade biology when my teacher asked > " Who > will not be disecting the frog today? " opened my > eyes > to the fact that I will not be able to dissect > animals > in veterinary school, thus, squashing the dream I'd > had of being a vet, and causing me to find some > other > career path. I've also found that I have a keen > interest in nutrition, and enjoy advising people on > good nutritional habits. I can recall a time where I > was talking to a teacher about, I don't know, plant > sources of calcium, or why you should drink orange > juice when you eat foods rich in iron, or something > like that, and she was like, " You should consider > becoming a nutritionist! " > > > >Ah! Is she more concerned with your health than > ethics? If that > is the case, I think a serious effort at getting to > know > everything you can about the health aspects may help > you win her > over....> > > When I said that we mainly argue over my ethical > beliefs, I meant that it goes beyond diet. We argue > about stuff from why I need/don't need dairy in my > diet, to whether or not zoos and aquariums are > humane. > Both of which center around my ethical beilefs. We > do > agree on a few things, like how animals shouldn't be > used in circuses because it's inhumane. Sometimes I > === message truncated === Get email alerts & NEW webcam video instant messaging with Messenger. http://im. 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Guest guest Posted September 25, 2001 Report Share Posted September 25, 2001 >Oh no! Who in the hell is Barbara? I meant Deborah, >I'm sorry! Kelly Heehee! No problem-o Kelly! Deborah Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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