I have yet to see any posting here on the middle-east !

[Guest guest]

Throughout the history of European scholarly tradition there has been

 

an attempt to undermine Islam in order to subjugate the Muslim world. It

 

had nothing to do with the question of whether Christianity was true

 

and Islam untrue, rather this argument was merely a pretext to create a

 

climate where it would be easier to mobilise the masses to conquer the

 

Muslim world.

 

The vile tactics that these devious scholars used included things such

 

as: inventing false testimony of Arab converts to Catholicism to

 

undermine Islam; deliberately mistranslating the Qur'an in order to make it

 

easy to debunk; character assassination of Muhammad(saw), etc.

 

Now that would be fine and water under the bridge if these were just

 

left in the past were they belong but unfortunately these tactics are

 

still with us today, deliberately being stoked to peoples sentiments to

 

advance western aims of imperialism. Examples include: giving air to

 

testimonies to converts to western thinking (uncle toms), being propped up

 

as representatives of Muslims such as salman rushdie, Nawaal El

 

Sadaawi; deliberately mistranslating the Qur'an in order to make it easy to

 

debunk; character assassination of Muhammad (saw), etc.

 

Instead of using Christian pretexts for subjugating the Muslim world,

 

it is pretexts such as Islam is incompatible with 'progress', 'women's

 

rights', etc. This creates a prevailing atmosphere where it is felt that

 

the Muslim world is somehow barbaric and is therefore in need of

 

civilising(a very eurocentric attitude to say the least). It's ironic when

 

you consider that it is often the same western intellectual liberals who

 

are ashamed of the west's crusading past are themselves are still

 

carrying out this new crusade.

 

Just as Christian soldiers marching onwards to crusade against the

 

mohammedan heathens were genuine about their motivations for doing so

 

were actually playing into the hands of those who manipulated them for

 

their real aims, so too the same can be said for people interested in

 

injustices committed against the female gender play into the hands of those

 

who wish to destabilise the Muslim world making it easier to carry on

 

their subjugation.

 

Now I am not saying injustices do not happen in the Muslim world - far

 

from it. I am merely stating that these injustices will be stamped out

 

once Islam is allowed to flourish once again. People interested in

 

issues such as women's rights should have solidarity with Muslims who seek

 

to fight against such injustices by making a case against it on Islamic

 

grounds. For example do you think a person who carries out female

 

genital mutilation is going to listen to some westerner (with connotations

 

of colonialism) saying it is barbaric? Or do you think he'll be more

 

likely to listen to a Muslim saying it is haraam(forbidden) and then goes

 

on to prove it with authentic Islamic proofs?

 

One of the reasons why injustices happen in the Muslim world is because

 

people are reacting against the tides of western onslaught by running

 

to traditions both legitimate and perceived. If you carry on this

 

onslaught then people will carry on running to traditions they perceive to

 

be Islamic but are generally from pre-Islamic, or from teachings by

 

misogynist quacks such as Muhammad bin Wahhab(who's cronies were supported

 

by the Brits, spreading misery throughout the Muslim world, which now

 

the west has tasted in 9/11). Instead of ending injustices you will

 

simply be fanning the flames for more injustices to continue.

 

Furthermore, if you do not have the confidence in a people to sort out

 

social problems within their own frame of reference this is tantamount

 

to saying they are incapable of doing so. You have effectively excluded

 

an entire block of humanity in your mind of being capable of advancing

 

social progress. This, to me, appears to be a racist notion you hold.

 

If you genuinely wish to advance female emancipation in the Muslim

 

world then why not try looking into Islamic feminism which appeals to

 

sentiments all Muslims in some part of themselves hold?

 

 

 

 

 

Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

 

 

[Guest guest]

I agree with whomever said that this discussion doesn't belong in this group. It

is off topic. Someone

esle said that vegans care about the world so it's ok to discuss Islamic issues

here. If you care about

these issues then go to another group. I for one don't want to log in to this

group and hear fanatics ranting

about the Koran and female genital mutilation. I don't see how this relates to

being a vegan.

That having been said, I wish to respond to Ms. Gallin. I think that the western

world's people in general

don't care about undermining Islam and don't really spend much time thinking

about it. What we do see

is that the muslims we hear about are those that blow themselves and innocent

people up, and who mutilate

the gentials of their women. I'm sick and tired of people talking about what the

Koran says and doesn't say.

I don't really care. What I see is that a lot of muslims are crazy, barbaric,

fanatics, who probably have no idea

what the Koran really says or doesn't say or what it means or doesn't mean. All

they know is that they have nothing

in this life and if they blow up innocent people they'll go to heaven. Why you

would even think of supporting a group

that treats women as they do is way beyond me. Why don't you start your own

group and go rant and rave

there where we don't have to listen to your nonsense?

-

Michelle Galin

Wednesday, June 05, 2002 10:23 AM

I have yet to see any posting here on the middle-east

!

 

 

 

Throughout the history of European scholarly tradition there has been

 

an attempt to undermine Islam in order to subjugate the Muslim world. It

 

had nothing to do with the question of whether Christianity was true

 

and Islam untrue, rather this argument was merely a pretext to create a

 

climate where it would be easier to mobilise the masses to conquer the

 

Muslim world.

 

The vile tactics that these devious scholars used included things such

 

as: inventing false testimony of Arab converts to Catholicism to

 

undermine Islam; deliberately mistranslating the Qur'an in order to make it

 

easy to debunk; character assassination of Muhammad(saw), etc.

 

Now that would be fine and water under the bridge if these were just

 

left in the past were they belong but unfortunately these tactics are

 

still with us today, deliberately being stoked to peoples sentiments to

 

advance western aims of imperialism. Examples include: giving air to

 

testimonies to converts to western thinking (uncle toms), being propped up

 

as representatives of Muslims such as salman rushdie, Nawaal El

 

Sadaawi; deliberately mistranslating the Qur'an in order to make it easy to

 

debunk; character assassination of Muhammad (saw), etc.

 

Instead of using Christian pretexts for subjugating the Muslim world,

 

it is pretexts such as Islam is incompatible with 'progress', 'women's

 

rights', etc. This creates a prevailing atmosphere where it is felt that

 

the Muslim world is somehow barbaric and is therefore in need of

 

civilising(a very eurocentric attitude to say the least). It's ironic when

 

you consider that it is often the same western intellectual liberals who

 

are ashamed of the west's crusading past are themselves are still

 

carrying out this new crusade.

 

Just as Christian soldiers marching onwards to crusade against the

 

mohammedan heathens were genuine about their motivations for doing so

 

were actually playing into the hands of those who manipulated them for

 

their real aims, so too the same can be said for people interested in

 

injustices committed against the female gender play into the hands of those

 

who wish to destabilise the Muslim world making it easier to carry on

 

their subjugation.

 

Now I am not saying injustices do not happen in the Muslim world - far

 

from it. I am merely stating that these injustices will be stamped out

 

once Islam is allowed to flourish once again. People interested in

 

issues such as women's rights should have solidarity with Muslims who seek

 

to fight against such injustices by making a case against it on Islamic

 

grounds. For example do you think a person who carries out female

 

genital mutilation is going to listen to some westerner (with connotations

 

of colonialism) saying it is barbaric? Or do you think he'll be more

 

likely to listen to a Muslim saying it is haraam(forbidden) and then goes

 

on to prove it with authentic Islamic proofs?

 

One of the reasons why injustices happen in the Muslim world is because

 

people are reacting against the tides of western onslaught by running

 

to traditions both legitimate and perceived. If you carry on this

 

onslaught then people will carry on running to traditions they perceive to

 

be Islamic but are generally from pre-Islamic, or from teachings by

 

misogynist quacks such as Muhammad bin Wahhab(who's cronies were supported

 

by the Brits, spreading misery throughout the Muslim world, which now

 

the west has tasted in 9/11). Instead of ending injustices you will

 

simply be fanning the flames for more injustices to continue.

 

Furthermore, if you do not have the confidence in a people to sort out

 

social problems within their own frame of reference this is tantamount

 

to saying they are incapable of doing so. You have effectively excluded

 

an entire block of humanity in your mind of being capable of advancing

 

social progress. This, to me, appears to be a racist notion you hold.

 

If you genuinely wish to advance female emancipation in the Muslim

 

world then why not try looking into Islamic feminism which appeals to

 

sentiments all Muslims in some part of themselves hold?

 

 

 

Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup

 

[Guest guest]

lets try not to forget the violence that islam incurred on christians and

jews, and hindus as the islamic civilization(s) like the ottoman empire,

spread outwards from the middleeast. the main reason the muslim world is so

down trodden today is due to the turn back to extreme orthodoxy in the middle

ages. the muslim world is not just a helpless victim of western

conspiricies(although we certainly havent helped) if the muslim world had

continued to expand both in size and knowledge as it did in its first few

hundred years, they would probably be better off than we are. however due to

the fact that islam has never had a reformation(like christianity did) the

islamic world stagnating intellectually, cultrurally under the veil so to

speak of religious fundamentalism.

 

-mike

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

sorry, this little debate that michelle has been continually bringing up is

getting on my nerves to, and i relly dont think it belongs with this

webgroup, however i really had to get that off my chest

 

-mike