Guest guest Posted May 7, 2000 Report Share Posted May 7, 2000 > >Hi all - > >I'm fairly new here, so please forgive me if I'm bringing up an old issue. >But how do you all feel about the " keeping " and care of companion animals? >I feel it's mutually beneficial when done properly, but I know many vegans >object to the practice. I was just wondering if anybody here has strong >opinion about it and why. > >Thanks, >Annie I too share your mixed feelings Annie, on the one hand, keeping an animal is a type of slavery (the way people percieve and talk about their animals today, is very similar to the way many slave owners percieved and talked about they're slaves - this may sound overly-simplistic, but a sociology professor of mine was the first to bring it to my attention - the study he read to us was extremely eye-opening - wish I'd gotten the author's name.) One the other hand, I love dogs, cats and just about every type of animal, and truely feel that it is possible to be a virtuous companion " owner " if the rearing process is closer to adopting and raising a child (all be it a hairy and less dexterous one) than buying and training a piece of property designed to give you affection. I hope to live with a dog one day, I love 'em, but I'm sure that I have a lot to unlearn before the co-habitation process could be a complete success in terms of progressive animal rights. anybody else have any thoughts? patrick k. > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 7, 2000 Report Share Posted May 7, 2000 Hi all - I'm fairly new here, so please forgive me if I'm bringing up an old issue. But how do you all feel about the " keeping " and care of companion animals? I feel it's mutually beneficial when done properly, but I know many vegans object to the practice. I was just wondering if anybody here has strong opinion about it and why. Thanks, Annie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 8, 2000 Report Share Posted May 8, 2000 In a message dated 5/7/00 4:10:42 PM Mountain Daylight Time, patrickkeller writes: << keeping an animal is a type of slavery (the way people percieve and talk about their animals today, is very similar to the way many slave owners percieved and talked about they're slaves - >> ********************** I just have to jump in here. I have 2 Mini Schnauzers, 2 cats and a rabbit. My animals have it made in the shade so to speak. My schnauzers are just like one of the family. I love them to death. They even sleep in the bed with me and my husband. I talk very highly of them and if this is like slavery, I must have the wrong definition of slavery. Holiday Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2000 Report Share Posted May 9, 2000 > In a message dated 5/7/00 4:10:42 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > patrickkeller writes: > > << keeping an animal is > a type of slavery (the way people percieve and talk about their animals > today, is very similar to the way many slave owners percieved and talked > about they're slaves - >> > ********************** > I just have to jump in here. I have 2 Mini Schnauzers, 2 cats and a rabbit. > My animals have it made in the shade so to speak. My schnauzers are just like > one of the family. I love them to death. They even sleep in the bed with me > and my husband. I talk very highly of them and if this is like slavery, I > must have the wrong definition of slavery. Holiday I don't believe it is a type of slavery... we have 2 really cool dogs and 3 awesome cats. They are our kids. You don't let your kids run outside wherever they want when they are just growing up, do you? Dogs and cats are perpetual kids. They don't know what the human world is like... if we let our animals roam free, they will be dead within a few days, if not earlier. Modern society is just not a good place for our " kids " to wander around where they aren't protected. When we let our dogs out of our backyard to be with us while we are doing gardening, or talking out in front... they have a great time, but we just have to give them some gentle reminders not to go out in the street, to stay near us, etc... just like normal kids! And they are happy to come back with us when we are ready to go back in the house... so... slavery? I don't think so... not unless you are an animal abuser. Timothy G. Sikora Certified Novell Engineer tsikora Engineering Network Administrator 1-248-620-5011 Fabricating Engineers, Inc http://www.fe.com/~tim/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2000 Report Share Posted May 9, 2000 Well said!!!!!! Tim Sikora wrote: > > In a message dated 5/7/00 4:10:42 PM Mountain Daylight Time, > > patrickkeller writes: > > > > << keeping an animal is > > a type of slavery (the way people percieve and talk about their animals > > today, is very similar to the way many slave owners percieved and talked > > about they're slaves - >> > > ********************** > > I just have to jump in here. I have 2 Mini Schnauzers, 2 cats and a rabbit. > > My animals have it made in the shade so to speak. My schnauzers are just like > > one of the family. I love them to death. They even sleep in the bed with me > > and my husband. I talk very highly of them and if this is like slavery, I > > must have the wrong definition of slavery. Holiday > I don't believe it is a type of slavery... we have 2 really cool dogs and 3 > awesome cats. They are our kids. You don't let your kids run outside > wherever they want when they are just growing up, do you? Dogs and cats > are perpetual kids. They don't know what the human world is like... if we > let our animals roam free, they will be dead within a few days, if not earlier. > Modern society is just not a good place for our " kids " to wander around > where they aren't protected. When we let our dogs out of our backyard to > be with us while we are doing gardening, or talking out in front... they have > a great time, but we just have to give them some gentle reminders not to > go out in the street, to stay near us, etc... just like normal kids! And they > are happy to come back with us when we are ready to go back in the > house... so... slavery? I don't think so... not unless you are an animal > abuser. > > Timothy G. Sikora > Certified Novell Engineer tsikora > Engineering Network Administrator 1-248-620-5011 > Fabricating Engineers, Inc http://www.fe.com/~tim/ > > ------ > beMANY! has a new way to save big on your phone bill -- and keep on > saving more each month: Our huge buying group gives you Long Distance > rates which fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls! > http://click./1/3821/5/_/651892/_/957878122/ > ------ > > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > /community/ ___________ NetZero - Defenders of the Free World Click here for FREE Internet Access and Email http://www.netzero.net/download/index.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2000 Report Share Posted May 9, 2000 > patrickkeller writes: > << keeping an animal is > a type of slavery (the way people percieve and talk about > their animals > today, is very similar to the way many slave owners percieved > and talked > about they're slaves - >> > ********************** (Holiday writes:) > I just have to jump in here. I have 2 Mini Schnauzers, 2 cats > and a rabbit. > My animals have it made in the shade so to speak. My > schnauzers are just > like one of the family. > I love them to death. ?????--personally, I do not find that image reassuring, and wouldn't like it if someone said that re me. > I talk very highly of them I don't think this is what Patrick was referring to, but rather of talking as if we own the animals, reflecting on how, actually we do including the rights to decide their medical care, even to choose to KILL them. We also control the basic environments and conditions under which they must adapt. People in bad situations will display and show affection for abusers, because they have no one else to meet this need with. Controling an animals environment and life is definately a form of slavery. Of course there are gradations of a wide range and what kind of life that would mean to the animal. Companion animals are not given access to make their own human partner choices, access to food choices and catching it wild (not that I want them to--that's another issue, however THEY might want to), access to areas they would like to play in and freedom from injurious restraints around their necks, etc. They must adapt to a human world, you, " their human " , do not adjust to a dog environment, or cat environment... and if you have cats, dogs AND a rabbit, you are certainly not creating a rabbit environment. You do not attempt to learn cat or dog language, yet many people credit animals with understanding humans. Thus, we both deny natural language ability or use of it (theirs) and demand it of them (obey my vocal instructions, NOW). Many people have ONE dog, when dogs really need other dogs. Rabbits too are social animals, and need others. I believe most cats would rather be in a dog free environment, unless the dogs are non-disruptive, and do NOT bark. A cat has sensitive ears and is not suited to sudden noise. if > this is like > slavery, I must have the wrong definition of slavery. You try to be kind to your animals, and this is good...but it takes looking at what would be the animals natural world, to get a sense of what they are being denied. You may need to think about the non-obvious... Consider " obedience " --who defines the rules? Who gets to choose what is appropriate behavior? Do you have immediate and free access to meet your basic needs, like food when you want and complete access to the bathroom whenever? Do they? Do you have the ability and " right " to decide sexual issues for them, like whether or not they are " desexed " ? If your female dog were in heat, would you prevent her access to partners, and all those she would choose? And think about physiology...who wears the restraint around the neck, occaissionally or frequently pulling at the vertebral column with totally unnatural directions of stress, and which of you has access to the chiropracter? Even if the collar is never attached to a leash, cats have died from getting caught by the collar on something, and being strangled. Does the animal choose to wear such a thing? Which of you has the sensitive nose, (and olfactory-sensitive brain) but who has access to and decision making powers over the release of chemicals into the air with virtually every bottle opened, soap used, or synthetic material brought into the home? Maybe this will help you gain some perspective on how animals become slaves in the human environment, and how even the best intended folk also end up inadvertantly perpetuating unkindnesses. IT IS ALSO TRUE that most of these animals will die without us due to them being without an econitch of their own, and due to the human-created overpopulations. I believe we need to (yes, this too is controlling but its the least mean controll I can think of at the moment) do tubal ligations and vasectomies on all dogs and cats. The rabbits can be let free where there are rabbit populations...or " half-way house " communities for released, not wild-bred rabbits who might not do well on their own, but where they CAN leave if they choose. Lots of women who cannot escape a painful and emotionally crushing domestic situation also experience a slavery experience, even when it might look very cushy and satasfactory from the outside. Their husbands or partners often too, claim that they have it " made in the shade " . The same conditions occur to children, to poor people, etc. There are variations, but slavery is not at all a " thing of the past " . YET! Let's keep learning from eachother, and making things better and better for each other, including for those who we are presently in the position of controlling or " enslaving " . Until we find a way that no slaves are held on the planet. Thanks for listening, and the chance to express myself on these things. Joanne If I say something you find worth sharing, you don't need my permission to share it with others. Send instant messages & get email alerts with Messenger. http://im./ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2000 Report Share Posted May 9, 2000 " You do not attempt to learn cat or dog language, yet many people credit animals with understanding humans. Thus, we both deny natural language ability or use of it (theirs) " Actually, I often try to speak to the cats I live with in their language. I don't fool myself into thinking that we're communicating the way three cats would, but I study their vocalizations, what I think they mean, and I try to imitate them. I also study their body language and imitate that as well. In an ideal world, all animals would be able to roam the earth and live the life the Great Mother meant them to. But this is not an ideal world and I believe it would be far crueler to turn these cats out into a environment where they face an enormous amount of human created danger (cars, eradication of prey and other food sources, cruelty, etc.) I see my relationship with the animals that share my home as a symbiotic one - I provide a steady and ample food supply, a safe haven, medical care, and plenty of affection, which animals do enjoy. In return, they provide me with an outlet for the affection that I am unable (and unwilling) to express with humans. They are not here to love me, but for me to love - which is just as important, if not more important, than being loved. Yes, many of their freedoms are limited. (Incidentally, I never put collars on them, precisely to avoid injury.) And this does concern me. But they are healthy and I certainly believe they are happy. I see it in their actions and expressions; I hear it in their voices. I wish I could read their minds and learn whether or not they find our relationship to be symbiotic, as I believe. But I can't, and the long and the short of it is I love them dearly and can't bear the thought of them facing pain or suffering. This is selfish, but I honestly believe that the cats are happy with the situation and have no intention of changing it. -Annie - joanne baek Cc: holidaymadness ; patrickkeller Tuesday, May 09, 2000 11:10 AM Re: companion animals > patrickkeller writes: > << keeping an animal is > a type of slavery (the way people percieve and talk about > their animals > today, is very similar to the way many slave owners percieved > and talked > about they're slaves - >> > ********************** (Holiday writes:) > I just have to jump in here. I have 2 Mini Schnauzers, 2 cats > and a rabbit. > My animals have it made in the shade so to speak. My > schnauzers are just > like one of the family. > I love them to death. ?????--personally, I do not find that image reassuring, and wouldn't like it if someone said that re me. > I talk very highly of them I don't think this is what Patrick was referring to, but rather of talking as if we own the animals, reflecting on how, actually we do including the rights to decide their medical care, even to choose to KILL them. We also control the basic environments and conditions under which they must adapt. People in bad situations will display and show affection for abusers, because they have no one else to meet this need with. Controling an animals environment and life is definately a form of slavery. Of course there are gradations of a wide range and what kind of life that would mean to the animal. Companion animals are not given access to make their own human partner choices, access to food choices and catching it wild (not that I want them to--that's another issue, however THEY might want to), access to areas they would like to play in and freedom from injurious restraints around their necks, etc. They must adapt to a human world, you, " their human " , do not adjust to a dog environment, or cat environment... and if you have cats, dogs AND a rabbit, you are certainly not creating a rabbit environment. You do not attempt to learn cat or dog language, yet many people credit animals with understanding humans. Thus, we both deny natural language ability or use of it (theirs) and demand it of them (obey my vocal instructions, NOW). Many people have ONE dog, when dogs really need other dogs. Rabbits too are social animals, and need others. I believe most cats would rather be in a dog free environment, unless the dogs are non-disruptive, and do NOT bark. A cat has sensitive ears and is not suited to sudden noise. if > this is like > slavery, I must have the wrong definition of slavery. You try to be kind to your animals, and this is good...but it takes looking at what would be the animals natural world, to get a sense of what they are being denied. You may need to think about the non-obvious... Consider " obedience " --who defines the rules? Who gets to choose what is appropriate behavior? Do you have immediate and free access to meet your basic needs, like food when you want and complete access to the bathroom whenever? Do they? Do you have the ability and " right " to decide sexual issues for them, like whether or not they are " desexed " ? If your female dog were in heat, would you prevent her access to partners, and all those she would choose? And think about physiology...who wears the restraint around the neck, occaissionally or frequently pulling at the vertebral column with totally unnatural directions of stress, and which of you has access to the chiropracter? Even if the collar is never attached to a leash, cats have died from getting caught by the collar on something, and being strangled. Does the animal choose to wear such a thing? Which of you has the sensitive nose, (and olfactory-sensitive brain) but who has access to and decision making powers over the release of chemicals into the air with virtually every bottle opened, soap used, or synthetic material brought into the home? Maybe this will help you gain some perspective on how animals become slaves in the human environment, and how even the best intended folk also end up inadvertantly perpetuating unkindnesses. IT IS ALSO TRUE that most of these animals will die without us due to them being without an econitch of their own, and due to the human-created overpopulations. I believe we need to (yes, this too is controlling but its the least mean controll I can think of at the moment) do tubal ligations and vasectomies on all dogs and cats. The rabbits can be let free where there are rabbit populations...or " half-way house " communities for released, not wild-bred rabbits who might not do well on their own, but where they CAN leave if they choose. Lots of women who cannot escape a painful and emotionally crushing domestic situation also experience a slavery experience, even when it might look very cushy and satasfactory from the outside. Their husbands or partners often too, claim that they have it " made in the shade " . The same conditions occur to children, to poor people, etc. There are variations, but slavery is not at all a " thing of the past " . YET! Let's keep learning from eachother, and making things better and better for each other, including for those who we are presently in the position of controlling or " enslaving " . Until we find a way that no slaves are held on the planet. Thanks for listening, and the chance to express myself on these things. Joanne If I say something you find worth sharing, you don't need my permission to share it with others. Send instant messages & get email alerts with Messenger. http://im./ ------ Would you like to save big on your phone bill -- and keep on saving more each month? Join beMANY! Our huge buying group gives you Long Distance rates which fall monthly, plus an extra $60 in FREE calls! http://click./1/2567/5/_/651892/_/957895813/ ------ Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2000 Report Share Posted May 9, 2000 In a message dated 5/9/00 12:10:31 PM Mountain Daylight Time, joannebaek writes: << I love them to death. ?????--personally, I do not find that image reassuring, and wouldn't like it if someone said that re me. >> *************** I guess I used the wrong wording there. It should have said I love my animals with all my heart. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 9, 2000 Report Share Posted May 9, 2000 This is such a tough topic, I usually choose to stay away from it for a few basic reasons. First, I think that the issue is not nearly as important as the industrialized subjugation of animals for human food just because of the difference in the scale and intensity of suffering that occurs. There are many more important issues that affect animal well-being, and I'm happy to leave pet ethics alone until our society makes more progress in the very serious and outrageous areas of animal ethics. People won't care about animals used for experimentation or production of medicine while the whole world eats animals for pleasure. I believe that we should try to reduce the amount of animal experimentation as much as we can, but few people with diabetes will think twice about buying insulin made from a cow's pancreas while people are slaughtering these beautiful animals to feed their desire for unhealthy burgers and steaks. I think that we have to make the world a better place for animals one step at a time. Desire for animal companionship is in our nature. I contend that we had a symbiotic relationship with dogs in particular, but also cats and other animals. Dog toys have been found with human artifacts from over 100,000 years ago. While we haven't changed much physically, the past 100,000 years has been a very important period in our social evolution (which influences much of our behavior and characteristics etc). Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying that any actions can be justified by their occurrence in natural conditions (after all, horrible things happened under " natural " human conditions like murder and rape). I'm just saying that people have a natural desire to keep dogs and cats around because they were instrumental to the survival of many societies (for hunting, defense, pest control etc.) and some of them have evolved or been bred by us to depend on us. Some people even find other people with pets to be more attractive than those without animals that depend upon them. It makes sense because to own dogs in primitive societies (and in our society) one needed stability and wealth of resources which is a desirable attribute. My point is that it's not that easy for some people to say " Well, I don't know if I can provide the greatest life imaginable for an animal, so I shouldn't foster one " . People have children in bad conditions too, and changing that is also hard. To me, this just means that this topic is shadowed by the horrors of industrialized animal agriculture. I don't own pets. I would have a vegetarian pet if I could. Joseph Peck (a speaker from the project " One Bite at a Time " at Toronto's Vegetarian Food Fair last year) said that he had trouble justifying hurting one animal to help another, and that would be something for me to consider before I commissioned bringing a cat or dog into this world. Adopting a cat or dog and saving it from its doom is a very different story, though. I applaud people who try to reduce the amount of meat in their pets' diets, but I don't fault people who feed their cats and dogs meat. When deciding whether to foster an animal, you are in control and must decide whether they can be provided with a life that's worth living. We've heard good arguments for both cases in this forum so far. " Food " animals only exist in such great numbers because humans want to eat them. We vegans have decided that it would be better that they were never born than to live the horrible lives that they do. We can't set them all free without disastrous results. A similar decision has to be made for animals categorized as pets in our world. A dog or cat can only live a life with a human's care in this age; there's no other viable life for them. Maybe a dog or cat who lives in a rural area can be happier and more free than an urban pet, but it's not up to me to decide who should have pets and who shouldn't. A more tangible (and maybe pertinent) question is, whether our standards for pet treatment are high enough. [whew] Anthony Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2000 Report Share Posted May 11, 2000 wow joanne, thank you for the informative and thought provoking post! there is a lot to think about here, and your insight is appreciated. mylène ++++++++ " [We] are only beginning to uncover our own truths; many of us ... would be glad just to lie down with the sherds we have painfully uncovered... The politics worth having, the relationships worth having, demand that we delve still deeper. " Adrienne Rich -------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2000 Report Share Posted May 11, 2000 >a great time, but we just have to give them some gentle reminders not to >go out in the street, to stay near us, etc... just like normal kids! And >they >are happy to come back with us when we are ready to go back in the >house... so... slavery? I don't think so... not unless you are an animal >abuser. That's what I found so interesting about the study I mentioned Tim, apparently, many slave owners thought their slaves were as happy as could be (since they thought of them as animals and communicated with them on that level)- many were not chained or held captive at gunpoint - they stayed with thier captors out of (what the owners thought was) " their own free will " . What was so striking was how many slave owners talked about their slaves - stating that their slaves were " always smiling, and seemed as happy as could be " - and that the accommodations they gave to the slaves were " spoiling them " - since they were accommodations that were ALMOST similar to what actual human being could endure. Now, I didn't write the study, and I'm sure we can all sit here and find many many ways in which owning and animal in this day and age is different from owning people that were percieved as animals 200 years ago, but that wasn't my point. I'm sorry that everyone has taken my mention of the study so personally, My hope was that people might think of pet ownership in a slightly different light for a second, and perhaps strive to break some of the remaining parallels to the slave trade that pet ownership exhibits in this country. I guess I needed to just find out who wrote the study, post it and ask people what they thought of it. Joanne did an excellent job of paraphrasing the study - I'm surprised to not see more responses to what she wrote. thanks all, patrick k. > > > >Timothy G. Sikora >Certified Novell Engineer tsikora >Engineering Network Administrator 1-248-620-5011 >Fabricating Engineers, Inc http://www.fe.com/~tim/ ______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2000 Report Share Posted May 12, 2000 ha. i think this discussion has ended. but i neglected to check my email for a week so please excuse my late respone. i have been through this debate time and time again. having a pet that you respect as a life. a life that governs itself. a life that should respect you as you respect it. is perfectly acceptable. and in the case of shelter pets, is one of the most humane things you can do. what better than to house an animal facing death? i currently have no pets, due to the fact that i tend to move around a lot, and do not want to put an animal through that type of stress. however, once i settle down somewhere for a duration of time, you betcha i'm going to have a house full of shelter animals. how could i turn my back on these poor things facing their untimely demise, i can hope and pray that being vegan really does make an impact on animals lives, i can be sure that cat or dog i brought home with me from the shelter's life has been dramatically changed by my compassion. in defense of those who are defenseless, robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2000 Report Share Posted May 12, 2000 >patrick, i was thinking about this again today, trapped at work in a >space that does not allow me to avoid hearing my co-workers'. . . . . . . . >. " pets " ). hopefully the analogy can be used to further our >understanding of and resistance to both issues. > >in struggle, > >mylène A wonderful message M, thank you so much - do you mind if I save this and re-post it if needed in the future? ______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 13, 2000 Report Share Posted May 13, 2000 patrick, i was thinking about this again today, trapped at work in a space that does not allow me to avoid hearing my co-workers' conversations. they were talking about a dog show one was attending this weekend. i couldn't help over and over drawing the parallels, noticing the patterns of thought. the lack of even an inkling that there might be more to a dog's life than jumping through hoops, gratifying the desire of the human owner for prestige and recognition from other humans. the dissection of competing dogs' technique, so impersonal, as if the dogs were not individuals with their own unique likes, dislikes, relationships, stories... but merely furry little bundles of skills. even when they were praising the dog, it was for being " obedient " , as if capitulating to human control was the highest achievement for a non-human animal. talking about " points " to be won in order for the dog to qualify as a " stud " , who could then be *rented* out to breeders. it was extremely disturbing. the question of companion animals is one that i wrestle with and certainly haven't solved. carol adams mentions in _The Sexual Politics of Meat_ the idea that it is not useful to try to change a meat-eater's mind *while* they are actually eating meat, that the fact of the meal will continuously undo the questioning and critiquing. perhaps it is similar for companion animals -- easier to understand these parallels when we are not in the middle of them. it is certainly not a pleasant thing to have to ask ourselves these questions... is this really just? am i acting with as much integrity as i could, or should? yet we owe it to ourselves and to non- human animals to face these questions unflinchingly, without resorting to defensiveness and rationalization to avoid reaching unpleasant conclusions about ourselves. how else can we ever solve the problem, if we don't first accurately identify it? as you have alluded to, i too have some concern about the comparison of animal-oppression to human slavery... in a racist world, this has the potential to be used to trivialize the experience of human slavery, or to distort or obscure the history of slavery even more than it already is. yet the parallels are numerous. (for example, then as now, it is easier for those of the " owning " class to understand the injustice of the factory farm or of the plantation, than to recognize ourselves as the owners of " domestics " or " pets " ). hopefully the analogy can be used to further our understanding of and resistance to both issues. in struggle, mylène ps: by the way, the abolition of Black slavery in north amerikkka is only about 130 years old in some places, if my memory serves me correctly... a short time in memory and history, but a long time when we realize that racism is still alive and well. will humans now be similarly inclined to proclaim " equality " with non-human species, to grant them rights as they are debating in new zealand, while finding ways to keep the actual injustice in place? i fear that history does not bode well for any of us... ++++++++ " [We] are only beginning to uncover our own truths; many of us ... would be glad just to lie down with the sherds we have painfully uncovered... The politics worth having, the relationships worth having, demand that we delve still deeper. " Adrienne Rich -------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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