Guest guest Posted June 26, 2000 Report Share Posted June 26, 2000 LeatherIs. ... Might I suggest that both you and your friend brush up on your debating skills, neither one of you makes a convincing argument towards anything. The " points " your friend tries to bring up are sort of like questions I had about veganism about 2 years ago. I grew up on a large farm with many migrant workers, and my dad also raised cattle on the side. I knew people that had cows as pets and treated them the same way the very affluent treat their pet horses, many people in my area had horses that they would let roam free (unfenced) all day long, only to have them dutifully wander back to the stable at sundown (so these warm fuzzy examples did keep me an omnivour for a considerable span of years). And while migrant labor is not a dream job, the only cruelty that seemed to beset the migrant laborers in my area was a flagrant carelessness when working with toxic chemicals (which was not limited to just the low-paid workers by any means). Migrant workers do tedious and painful jobs that nobody else will do, to the farmers that employ them they are worth thier weight in gold, I remeber many times as a child, accussing my father of " loving his mexicans more than he loves his family " - this does not mean that migrant workers are not treated poorly in other parts, but there are laws in place, and agents hired to uphold them. However, you will not catch me arguing on behalf of agribusiness - community organic/non-GM garden co-ops are a much saner method of feeding people in my current opinion. What it boils down to is that you can't choose to be a vegan for any reason other than health concerns and not invest yourself in really thinking about how the world feeds itself, and the problems that are inherent in the current systems of nutritional education, and produce production/distribution. A switch to veganism is a big desicion that should change your life in meaningful ways, and you should take the time to really think and read about the implications of your decision and the various (and sometimes conflicting) ideologies that go along with an animal-free diet. In a crued, brass-tax sort of manner of scientific logic, you really are (physically) what you eat and drink - so major changes in those patterns should not be taken lightly. I still have a lot to learn myself, I've only been struggling with veganism since January, and currently I'm far from being a perfect vegan role-model. Good luck LeatherIS, I'm glad you shared your friends rambling with us - there is absolutely nothing to concern yourself with in what she says, if she really is your " friend " , than she probably cares a lot about you and is just trying to rationalize your decision to herself (in short, her arguments are pathetic and derived from the very same misinformation and lack of compassion that has kept meat-eating popular all these years). Regardless of your own opinions, a lot of people (myself once included) feel a bit threatened when their friends go vegan. You cannot escape the ideoligical and moral leanings of vegansim within a certain manner of speaking - so the egos of those non-vegans who enjoy feeling like they have a leg up on you must now search for a way to discredit your decision and rationalized there omnivority to everyone involved. I kind of went through the same thing when a friend of mine went vegan on me (whilst I was still a proud omnivour) and unfortunately, she was unabtle to verbalize her reasons for her decision all that well at the time, so she always felt attacked whenever I questioned here (however polite and tactful I thought I was being) about her decision. hope this helps a bit, toughen up that brain, question your own reasons, and find darn good answers to those questions - I'm sure we could all help you with that. take care, patrick k. > >Hi everyone.... > >I am wanting some perspectivs and good arugments from you >all. > >I have a friend who lives in another state and gets >online sometimes for the soul purpose of questioning my >veganism. > >I argue my points..I believe to be well yet she somehow >she still does not get that my being a vegan is never >going to change. It just makes sense to me. I have >not been a vegan for a super long time as a lot of you >have so I guess I am not really good at making points >when confronted with certain things. > >I am going to post the messages she sent me on icq >yesterday and the messages she sent me on aol instant >messanger today.... I am only going to post my repsonses >when it leads to the next argument which I think is like >once >on instantmessagner she is crackbaby and i am >minusmeat > >Ok here goes Its long so pleas don't be upset. I would >just appreciate your help so much > > >yesterdays icq messages first > >her...heh.. i actually got on to spout a little anti >vegitarianism at ya. > >dr william t jarvis of the american council on science >and health - a former vegetarian who previously headed >the nation council against health fraud - describles >what he calls " ideologic vegetarianism " dr. jarvis >writes that " on can spot ideologic vegetarians by their >lack of skepticism, and their faulire to recognize the >potintial risks even of extreme vegetarian diets. > > >me...and damn it if you are going to go trying to read >stuff to argure vegetarian ....be a pal and read stuff >pro vegetarinism so you can see some good in what im >doing > >her...i do see some good.. i just don't see the need >to be so militant about it.... > >i guess really there just too much tragic shit going on >in the world for me to invest my emotions in an animal. > >well.. i don't really see that's it's so cruel to eat >animals. > >do you think it's cruel to go fishing.. catch a fish >that has had a perfectly happy life.. and eat it? > > >but you do think it's okay to kill humans? like as in >capitol punishment? > >me....if it were up to me...i would not vote for it amy > >but I might find it hard to feel sorry for someone who >raped and killed a littl girl >Animals do not have a voice > >A person who gets the death penalty gets it USUALLy for >somethign that he chose to do >an animal can not choose to end up in a toilet > >but no i am not for the death penalty and i do believe >that after many years waiting for the death penalty that >sometimes people change completely for the better..and it >can be a sad situation > >her....it boggles me that you feel more compassion for >animals than you do man. > > >me...thats not what i said amy >its not always black and white >They made their choice >.i think it would be totally cruel to hunt humans and eat >them. I would want no part in that :)heehee > > >her...humans and the animals we eat are different. >i think you project human emotions and feelings onto >animals.. >and just say everyone in the world stopped eating >meat tomorrow... what would you have us do with all the >extra cows? holy christ that would have to be one >awesome slaughter. the world is not made to accomodate >that many cattle for years and years and years. > >and just what do you propose all those farmers do?? > >i mean they have no other means of income... is your >militant compassion not big enough to emcompass your >fellow man too?? he's just supposed to be on welfare >because you feel sorry for the little furry nanimals. > >NOTHING REALLY IMPORTANT AFTER THAT WITH ICQ...SO NOW I >WILL SEND TODAY'S ICQ MESSAGES FROM HER . > >Crackbabyee: well.. what about the treatment of the >migratory workers that pick the vegetables? no great >feelings of compassion for them? > > i just kinda wanted to make sure you do keep it in >persepective.. the cows aren't the only one's being >treated bad here. > by going on a no animal by-product diet aren't you >punishing the farmers that treat their animals good, as >well as those who don't? > > Minusmeat:and yet they are the ONLY ones who cant make >the choice for themselves > Crackbabyee: there you go.. projecting human actions >and emotions onto cows again. > cows can't make a choice period. > > >Crackbabyee:they don't know when someone is trying to >slaughter them. >they run when somone tries to pet them. >they are not that intelligent hon. > >Crackbabyee:to me it seems to be a fart in a hurricane of >unfairness > >Crackbabyee: i just think if you wanna be an activist, >there are much much worthier causes out there. > >Crackbabyee: yet you'll mow down those migrant worker >picked potatoes with out a care in the world for the poor >person that picked them. > >and so you would have half the world out of a job.. >millions of cows slaughter to get their population down.. >and then we'd all live in harmony? > Crackbabyee: will you be the one to pay for all the >meat packers out of jobs? > >support them on your taxes? > then we'd all be anemic as well. >i guess they could all go into the vitamin business.. or >the life support business. > > >Well that pretty much covers what I woul like your views >on... > >Thank You in advance for your help.. > >Toni > ______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 26, 2000 Report Share Posted June 26, 2000 Hi everyone.... I am wanting some perspectivs and good arugments from you all. I have a friend who lives in another state and gets online sometimes for the soul purpose of questioning my veganism. I argue my points..I believe to be well yet she somehow she still does not get that my being a vegan is never going to change. It just makes sense to me. I have not been a vegan for a super long time as a lot of you have so I guess I am not really good at making points when confronted with certain things. I am going to post the messages she sent me on icq yesterday and the messages she sent me on aol instant messanger today.... I am only going to post my repsonses when it leads to the next argument which I think is like once on instantmessagner she is crackbaby and i am minusmeat Ok here goes Its long so pleas don't be upset. I would just appreciate your help so much yesterdays icq messages first her...heh.. i actually got on to spout a little anti vegitarianism at ya. dr william t jarvis of the american council on science and health - a former vegetarian who previously headed the nation council against health fraud - describles what he calls " ideologic vegetarianism " dr. jarvis writes that " on can spot ideologic vegetarians by their lack of skepticism, and their faulire to recognize the potintial risks even of extreme vegetarian diets. me...and damn it if you are going to go trying to read stuff to argure vegetarian ....be a pal and read stuff pro vegetarinism so you can see some good in what im doing her...i do see some good.. i just don't see the need to be so militant about it.... i guess really there just too much tragic shit going on in the world for me to invest my emotions in an animal. well.. i don't really see that's it's so cruel to eat animals. do you think it's cruel to go fishing.. catch a fish that has had a perfectly happy life.. and eat it? but you do think it's okay to kill humans? like as in capitol punishment? me....if it were up to me...i would not vote for it amy but I might find it hard to feel sorry for someone who raped and killed a littl girl Animals do not have a voice A person who gets the death penalty gets it USUALLy for somethign that he chose to do an animal can not choose to end up in a toilet but no i am not for the death penalty and i do believe that after many years waiting for the death penalty that sometimes people change completely for the better..and it can be a sad situation her....it boggles me that you feel more compassion for animals than you do man. me...thats not what i said amy its not always black and white They made their choice ..i think it would be totally cruel to hunt humans and eat them. I would want no part in that :)heehee her...humans and the animals we eat are different. i think you project human emotions and feelings onto animals.. and just say everyone in the world stopped eating meat tomorrow... what would you have us do with all the extra cows? holy christ that would have to be one awesome slaughter. the world is not made to accomodate that many cattle for years and years and years. and just what do you propose all those farmers do?? i mean they have no other means of income... is your militant compassion not big enough to emcompass your fellow man too?? he's just supposed to be on welfare because you feel sorry for the little furry nanimals. NOTHING REALLY IMPORTANT AFTER THAT WITH ICQ...SO NOW I WILL SEND TODAY'S ICQ MESSAGES FROM HER . Crackbabyee: well.. what about the treatment of the migratory workers that pick the vegetables? no great feelings of compassion for them? i just kinda wanted to make sure you do keep it in persepective.. the cows aren't the only one's being treated bad here. by going on a no animal by-product diet aren't you punishing the farmers that treat their animals good, as well as those who don't? Minusmeat:and yet they are the ONLY ones who cant make the choice for themselves Crackbabyee: there you go.. projecting human actions and emotions onto cows again. cows can't make a choice period. Crackbabyee:they don't know when someone is trying to slaughter them. they run when somone tries to pet them. they are not that intelligent hon. Crackbabyee:to me it seems to be a fart in a hurricane of unfairness Crackbabyee: i just think if you wanna be an activist, there are much much worthier causes out there. Crackbabyee: yet you'll mow down those migrant worker picked potatoes with out a care in the world for the poor person that picked them. and so you would have half the world out of a job.. millions of cows slaughter to get their population down.. and then we'd all live in harmony? Crackbabyee: will you be the one to pay for all the meat packers out of jobs? support them on your taxes? then we'd all be anemic as well. i guess they could all go into the vitamin business.. or the life support business. Well that pretty much covers what I woul like your views on... Thank You in advance for your help.. Toni Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2000 Report Share Posted June 27, 2000 Its easy! Your friend insist on the fact you don't care about humans, or that you care too much for animals, instead of humans. Right? And by not eating animal products you are actually sacrificing comfort for some unknown human, since they are not getting paid because you don't buy. Still right? First off, point your friend to Gail A. Eisnitz's book, " Slaughterhouse " , then explain to him how immigrant workers get their hand severed, or get crushed by a F**k**g FALLING COWS, or slip in blood and hurt themselves... Tell him about their fear of being laid off all the time, because of a bathroom brake, or because of a complaint about some pain they feel, either tendonitis of the wrist or of a shoulder. Or tell them about the turnover rate on the kill floor; 100% (that's right, everybody gets fired or quits at some point) and don't forget to tell him that being a farmer or fruit collector is way more fun then slitting 25 000 chicken a week (one person), and getting sick doing it! (Do you know chickens shit everywhere when they get nervous? Amonia smells everywhere... eyes burning, chickens dying... Wow, how can we want these people out of there, neh?!!?) Tell him about the sickness in the slaughterhouses, about how it has been proven that every damn single chicken coming out of a factory is contaminated by at LEAST salmonella, maybe E. Coli too. Tell him about the feices in the meat ( enters: E. Coli ), about the proven link between animal cruelty or slaughter and violent crimes, tell him about the fact Japanese girls gained 14cm in 25 years (on a average 12 years old) since they started drinking milk in the 1950 (American invasion brought it there) or the fact they have gone from first menstrual cycle: 15 years to 12,3 years old. Tell him about the six death in Ontario three weeks ago caused by contaminated water, or the fact that cases of alimentary illnesses have gone up 800% since the FDA's deregulation on meat in 1980. Or the fact that the FDA's ultimate executive is one of the most well known pro-meat administrator ever; she worked for the meat industry for years! How can one expect neutrality in that case? The meat is killing people. Repeat: people are dying of food illnesses!!! Just that FACT makes it worth laying down on meat a bit (or completely!) And then there's the animal cruelty, and the animal experiments and the mutations, and the hormones, and, and... Insist on the health side for now; he does not yet care for a life he can't talk to... Does he feel insecure near death or mute people? What about " slow " people? Anyways, 'should be enough for tomorrow, non? Salut les amis! Pascal. www.upperworld.com Pascal Pilon Head Redaction The Upperworld Society / La société Upperworld p2 -----Message d'origine----- De : LeatherIsMurder [minusthemeat] Envoyé : 26 juin, 2000 15:17 À : Objet : BELIEFS BEING CHALLANGED *exhausting* Hi everyone.... I am wanting some perspectivs and good arugments from you all. I have a friend who lives in another state and gets online sometimes for the soul purpose of questioning my veganism. I argue my points..I believe to be well yet she somehow she still does not get that my being a vegan is never going to change. It just makes sense to me. I have not been a vegan for a super long time as a lot of you have so I guess I am not really good at making points when confronted with certain things. I am going to post the messages she sent me on icq yesterday and the messages she sent me on aol instant messanger today.... I am only going to post my repsonses when it leads to the next argument which I think is like once on instantmessagner she is crackbaby and i am minusmeat Ok here goes Its long so pleas don't be upset. I would just appreciate your help so much yesterdays icq messages first her...heh.. i actually got on to spout a little anti vegitarianism at ya. dr william t jarvis of the american council on science and health - a former vegetarian who previously headed the nation council against health fraud - describles what he calls " ideologic vegetarianism " dr. jarvis writes that " on can spot ideologic vegetarians by their lack of skepticism, and their faulire to recognize the potintial risks even of extreme vegetarian diets. me...and damn it if you are going to go trying to read stuff to argure vegetarian ....be a pal and read stuff pro vegetarinism so you can see some good in what im doing her...i do see some good.. i just don't see the need to be so militant about it.... i guess really there just too much tragic shit going on in the world for me to invest my emotions in an animal. well.. i don't really see that's it's so cruel to eat animals. do you think it's cruel to go fishing.. catch a fish that has had a perfectly happy life.. and eat it? but you do think it's okay to kill humans? like as in capitol punishment? me....if it were up to me...i would not vote for it amy but I might find it hard to feel sorry for someone who raped and killed a littl girl Animals do not have a voice A person who gets the death penalty gets it USUALLy for somethign that he chose to do an animal can not choose to end up in a toilet but no i am not for the death penalty and i do believe that after many years waiting for the death penalty that sometimes people change completely for the better..and it can be a sad situation her....it boggles me that you feel more compassion for animals than you do man. me...thats not what i said amy its not always black and white They made their choice .i think it would be totally cruel to hunt humans and eat them. I would want no part in that :)heehee her...humans and the animals we eat are different. i think you project human emotions and feelings onto animals.. and just say everyone in the world stopped eating meat tomorrow... what would you have us do with all the extra cows? holy christ that would have to be one awesome slaughter. the world is not made to accomodate that many cattle for years and years and years. and just what do you propose all those farmers do?? i mean they have no other means of income... is your militant compassion not big enough to emcompass your fellow man too?? he's just supposed to be on welfare because you feel sorry for the little furry nanimals. NOTHING REALLY IMPORTANT AFTER THAT WITH ICQ...SO NOW I WILL SEND TODAY'S ICQ MESSAGES FROM HER . Crackbabyee: well.. what about the treatment of the migratory workers that pick the vegetables? no great feelings of compassion for them? i just kinda wanted to make sure you do keep it in persepective.. the cows aren't the only one's being treated bad here. by going on a no animal by-product diet aren't you punishing the farmers that treat their animals good, as well as those who don't? Minusmeat:and yet they are the ONLY ones who cant make the choice for themselves Crackbabyee: there you go.. projecting human actions and emotions onto cows again. cows can't make a choice period. Crackbabyee:they don't know when someone is trying to slaughter them. they run when somone tries to pet them. they are not that intelligent hon. Crackbabyee:to me it seems to be a fart in a hurricane of unfairness Crackbabyee: i just think if you wanna be an activist, there are much much worthier causes out there. Crackbabyee: yet you'll mow down those migrant worker picked potatoes with out a care in the world for the poor person that picked them. and so you would have half the world out of a job.. millions of cows slaughter to get their population down.. and then we'd all live in harmony? Crackbabyee: will you be the one to pay for all the meat packers out of jobs? support them on your taxes? then we'd all be anemic as well. i guess they could all go into the vitamin business.. or the life support business. Well that pretty much covers what I woul like your views on... Thank You in advance for your help.. Toni ---------- -- ---------- -- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2000 Report Share Posted June 27, 2000 Hi Toni! I have read your email asking for help responding to your friend who keeps " attacking " your veganism. It sounds to me like your friend is about as scared as she can be. Down deep, she sees the improvement you have made, and she is confused and desparately trying to hoold onto what she thought was the truth. She hears the criticisms about veganism, and doesn't know what to do about them. She doesn't know where to turn for reliable information. I think it may be up to you to provide it. I recommend getting yourself a copy of Diet for a New America by John Robbins. If you can get it from the library, it is free, but if you can afford it, I think you might find it a good investment. Your friend would like to hear some facts and figures I think rather than just arguments. My husband and I have been vegan for 15 years, fit and healthy, and I have raised our daughter from babihood as a vegan. She is 16 now, beautiful, healthy, intelligent, creative, all that good stuff! So, I will offer you what I can. One thing that is really important is that you take vitamin B12. That is the only nutrient not available in a plant diet, and it is very important for our health. If you haven't been taking it, that's OK because our bodies can live off what we have in storage in our livers for quite a while, but it is best to make sure you are taking in a fresh supply. I will insert my comments with my name, Deborah, preceeding them. Good luck Toni. I plan to be on this list for now, so if this is of any help and you would like more, please feel free to write again as you did this time. Also, please let us know how your friend responds to these suggestions if you use them. The facts and figures I have quoted in my answers are just the tip of the iceberg of information available. Deborah Gibsons, BC Canada dr william t jarvis of the american council on science and health - a former vegetarian who previously headed the nation council against health fraud - describles what he calls " ideologic vegetarianism " dr. jarvis writes that " on can spot ideologic vegetarians by their lack of skepticism, and their faulire to recognize the potintial risks even of extreme vegetarian diets. Deboorah: To this, I would respond " And what does Dr. Jarvis say are the potential risks? " If your friend can't say, then you can ask her to please find out what the person is talking about before passing it on to you. me...and damn it if you are going to go trying to read stuff to argure vegetarian ....be a pal and read stuff pro vegetarinism so you can see some good in what im doing her...i do see some good.. i just don't see the need to be so militant about it.... Deborah: Have you been militant? This sounds like your friend is feeling pressure from you to embrace veganism. Have you been trying to convert her? While I totally understand if you have been, wanting someone you care about to eat vegan, I hope you also understand what a personal decision it is. She will have to make it in her own time, as you did. IF she is going to make it, your job as her friend is to be very patient with her. I totally sympathize with how difficult that can be, to watch someone you care about eating meat and dairy. However, it is an organic process that has it's own schedule. You will make more headway with her if you avoid pushing. Only answer her direct questions. You may need to become very clear with yourself about why you want her to change. Do you feel like you need her to change over so that your friendship can grow? Do you feel yourselves going in different directions at this point, and that feels scary to you? The more clear you can get about how you feel about your relationship and her, the better you will be able to relate to her about this and everything. It may help to talk to her about these things. her: ...and just say everyone in the world stopped eating meat tomorrow... Deborah: Why would we bother saying that? That is total fantasy! However, even if there was a law passed prohibiting the eating of meat, it would be phased out slowly. There would be plenty of time for farmers to switch over to plant agriculture gradually. Her: what would you have us do with all the extra cows? Deborah: Extra? What extra? If the world switched over, the farmers would stop breeding cattle, the existing ones would be butchered for people to eat their last meat meals, and that would be that. her: holy christ that would have to be one awesome slaughter. Deborah: There already is an awesome slaughter, every day. Everyday, 9 MILLION chicken, turkeys, pigs, calves and cows are slaughtered. In the time it takes you to have your lunch, every day, the number of animals killed is equal to the entire population of San Fransisco. (Excerpt from Diet for a New America) Her: the world is not made to accomodate that many cattle for years and years and years. Deborah: You're right, it isn't. That is one of the main reasons why we have so much starvation in humans and such a resource problem which is getting worse. Most of the water used in the States goes to cattle raising. (Diet for a New America page 352) " To supply one person with a meat habit food for a year requires 3 1/4 acres. To supply one vegan requires only 1/16 of an acre. In other words, a given acreage can feed 20 times as many people eating a vegan diet at it could eating a meat-based diet. If Americans were to reduce their meat consumption by only 10%, it would free over 12 million tons of grain annually for human consumption. That would be enough to adequately feed every one of the 60 million human beings who will starve to death on the planet this year. (page 353) The world's cattle alone, not to mention pigs and chickens, consume a quantity of food equal to the caloric needs of 8.7 billion people-nearly double the entire human population of the planet. " and just what do you propose all those farmers do?? Deborah: Grow fruits, vegetables, grains, nuts and seeds. Crackbabyee: well.. what about the treatment of the migratory workers that pick the vegetables? no great feelings of compassion for them? Deborah: Plenty of feelings of compassion! That is an issue that also needs attention. There IS more than one problem that needs addressing on this planet! It's good to get started on doing what we can do here, now, ourselves. There is very little we can do for those workers directly, but we CAN eat vegan which makes sure that they get hired for work at least, because we are eating what they are picking. i just kinda wanted to make sure you do keep it in persepective.. the cows aren't the only one's being treated bad here. Deborah: Agreed! by going on a no animal by-product diet aren't you punishing the farmers that treat their animals good, as well as those who don't? Deborah: Caring for cattle and sending them off to slaughter is horrible work. I am doing them a kindness indeed by making it more worth their while to grow plant foods rather than cattle. Howard Lyman, a former cattle rancher, sold his farm and became a vegetarian because he became sick with cancer, and he found out that a vegetarian diet would increase his chances of becoming well. He DID become well, and now is the president of American Earthsave. Growing plants is much more pleasant for everyone. It isn't possible to love animals the way you would like to, when you KNOW they are going to be killed. He has horrible stories to tell about what it is like to have to care for cattle bound for slaughter. I would much rather farmers grow crops rather than cattle for people to eat. Crackbabyee:they don't know when someone is trying to slaughter them. Deborah: Regretfully, you are very wrong there. Have you ever been to a slaughter house? they run when somone tries to pet them. they are not that intelligent hon. Deborah: There are a number of published studies for farmers who raise cattle for slaughter, aimed at teaching the farmer that if they handle the cattle gently when they are growing up, they will respond much better to the care they get later on in life. I just find it rather astonishing that human beings need to be taught that! The cattle learn to fear humans who hurt them, scaring them with yelling, slapping, poking, proding, electric shocks. Only a total imbecile wouldn't run from people who have treated them that way! Only a total imbecile would TREAT a cow that way and then complain that the cow runs away from him! Crackbabyee:to me it seems to be a fart in a hurricane of unfairness Deborah: Possibly, you and I have very different values. Crackbabyee: i just think if you wanna be an activist, there are much much worthier causes out there. Deborah: I am not a " wanna be activist " , I AM an activist. I am engaged in saving the world with my fork, three times a day, 7 days a week. I don't just complain about what needs to be done like some people, I am doing it. If you think there are more worthy causes, I assume you are involved in at least one. What are they? What do you actually DO as an activist yourself? Crackbabyee: yet you'll mow down those migrant worker picked potatoes with out a care in the world for the poor person that picked them. Deborah: The migrant workers can keep right on picking as far as I am concerned, it is the cattle farmers who need to switch. and so you would have half the world out of a job.. Deborah: No. Plant agriculture offers as many or more jobs as raising cattle. millions of cows slaughter to get their population down.. Deborah: Nine million were slaughtered today, another 9 million will be slaughtered tomorrow... I want it to stop, and so I refuse to buy into it. and then we'd all live in harmony? Deborah: I already do live in harmony, with my conscience. I would be happy for you to join me, it would make me even happier. As it is, I am at least happy and at peace with my choice. Crackbabyee: will you be the one to pay for all the meat packers out of jobs? Deborah: Hardly! They will go to work for the farmers, and they will be much happier. Jobs in slaughter houses turn-over the fastest of any job. They are so horrible, few people can stomach them for long. Have you ever seen a cow being forced into the shute of the slaughter house? I have. They fight and try desparately to get away. They KNOW what is coming, and they want out! Their eyes go wide and they bellow with terror. As a matter of fact, the people in the slaughter house judge how healthy the cows are by how hard they bellow in fear before slaughter. The sick and dying ones are too weak to complain, and there are plenty of those. By the time cattle get to the slaughter house, many have developed diseases in transport, often pneumonia. Sometimes, their throats are slit while they are still conscious. Is that a job you would want anyone to have to do? Well that pretty much covers what I woul like your views on... Thank You in advance for your help.. You're most welcome Toni, I hope to hear more from you! Wishing you health, happiness and prosperity... Deborah ---------- ---------- Post message: Subscribe: - Un: - List owner: -owner Shortcut URL to this page: /community/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2000 Report Share Posted June 27, 2000 , " Patrick Keller " <patrickkeller@h...> wrote: > LeatherIs. ... > > Might I suggest that both you and your friend brush up on your debating > skills, neither one of you makes a convincing argument towards anything. It never fails to astonish me how there is not one group of people that you can feel comfortable saying whats on your mind without someone trying to make you feel like an idiot. First of all. I did not post my responses as I did not want views on my responses...I wanted views on hers. I already pointed out that I have not been a vegan for a very long time and part of my " brushing up " is posting the arguments here and getting some other views.... Yes I realize that most of the what she says can be argued back with common sense arguments...but we all have our own little twist to things and I am actually more interested in hearing what all of you have to say with your own bits of information and ideas then I am being pumped up to show her up. I really resent being insulted when I have done nothing to deserve it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2000 Report Share Posted June 27, 2000 > > , " Patrick Keller " ><patrickkeller@h...> wrote: > > LeatherIs. ... > > > > Might I suggest that both you and your friend brush up on your >debating > > skills, neither one of you makes a convincing argument towards >anything. > > > > >It never fails to astonish me how there is not one group of people >that you can feel comfortable saying whats on your mind without >someone trying to make you feel like an idiot. > >First of all. I did not post my responses as I did not want views on >my responses...I wanted views on hers. > >I already pointed out that I have not been a vegan for a very long >time and part of my " brushing up " is posting the arguments here and >getting some other views.... > >Yes I realize that most of the what she says can be argued back with >common sense arguments...but we all have our own little twist to >things and I am actually more interested in hearing what all of you >have to say with your own bits of information and ideas then I am >being pumped up to show her up. > >I really resent being insulted when I have done nothing to deserve it. I did not mean to insult you Leather, I wrote that comment sort of tongue and cheek, sorry it came across the wrong way. If you had read the rest of the post, you would have hopefully gleemed from the whole thing that I was glad you posted and was trying my best to be helpful. Again, I am sorry I hurt your feelings, But I am not sorry about everything else that I said, take care, patrick k. > ______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 27, 2000 Report Share Posted June 27, 2000 Dear friend I too get sick of hearing the same old accusation - that caring about animals is somehow wrong when there is so much human suffering in the world. I don't believe that caring can *ever* be wrong - misguided, perhaps, on occasion, but never wrong. Be that as it may - sometimes we need to fight fire with fire and if your friend cannot bring herself to respect veganism for the sake of animal compassion, perhaps she could embrace it if she knew the facts of how it impacts on the most vulnerable of the world's people. It is a well-known fact that animal husbandry is the most wasteful and resource-hungry method of food production known. There are irrefutable facts and figures proving this - unfortunately I don't have them in my head and I'm typing this at work and all my resources are at home. I'll look some stuff out tonight and email you privately tomorrow. The pertinent fact that does stick in my head is that the affluent/effluent west actually imports vegetable protein from the third world to feed to food animals. So in order to satisfy our greed for flesh, we take vegetable protein from countries where children are dying daily of malnutrition. Kinda stops you feeling sorry for livestock farmers, don't it? You may of course simply have to accept that your friend's views will never be influenced by yours. Indeed I sometimes think that what passes for debate is thinly-disguised attack and a big bunch of excuses. I do not believe that meat-eating is justifiable on any grounds in those parts of the world capable of growing vegetation. Some people who choose to do so are obviously threatened by the opinions of those who choose not to. I should by now not be surprised when meat-eaters take it upon themselves to jeer, but for some reason I still boggle that they can be so rude when I would never dream of criticising their dietary habits. The very best advice I can possibly give is to steep yourself in the subject - read all you can lay hands on so that when ninnies throw inane arguments at you, you can counter them without really having to think about it. I'm not a very long-standing vegan either - just a year this month - but I'm learning all the time and in the years to come I'll know exactly what to say. The other point I try to bear in mind is that not every question is an attack - a woman at work has been asking lots of questions (the first one being " what do you eat? " - I can never answer that one, so I'm keeping a food diary for her) and I'm hopeful that as a result of my answers she will reduce her family's meat and dairy - she certainly seemed shocked when I mentioned the blood and pus contamination in milk. In fact her next question was " what, even semi-skimmed? " Which just goes to show how little the public in general knows about what they're eating. Anyway, this has turned into a bit of a rant, so I'll stop. I will look out that info and pass it on, but in the meantime chin up, you're doing well to retain your ethics in the face of unpleasant opposition. No-one can ask more. All good wishes Cathy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2000 Report Share Posted June 28, 2000 Dear Toni, many of the questions your friend asks are important questions. but it seems to me this friend is using a few good points to cut you down, not to seriously try to solve the problem. yes there are good answers to all of these things, but i get the definite feeling this person doesn't care what those answers are, they are just trying to derail you, and suck up your energy, and make you tired. that's not a very friendly thing to do. if she were truly trying to learn and find answers to these questions, she would read books, and search on the internet, and try to figure out the answers herself sometimes, as well as talking to you about it. i'm guessing that she is not doing these things, or if she is, is only looking for information that contradicts you, and not trying to get the whole picture. in my experience, arguing with people like this (and i have met many) means they win, no matter how good your points are. even if you make great arguments, you still lose, because they have taken hours or days away from your life that you could use more usefully... and they have already decided never to change, no matter what you say. i don't know if this is the case with your friend, but as i mentioned, this kind of conversation has never turned out good for me. but. since you do seem to be looking for some good answers, here are a few i can think of: 1. " i guess really there just too much tragic shit going on in the world for me to invest my emotions in an animal. " there is a lot of tragic stuff. there's no need to separate out the suffering of humans from non-humans. we can all feel pain equally, and all of it must stop. it's not either/or. sometimes using an analogy can make things clearer... for example, during the vietnam war, a lot of boys in the peace movement expressed exactly this feeling, but about men and women. they said, " there's too much suffering going on in viet nam for us to worry about petty things like women's rights. " obviously this doesn't make sense -- there's no reason why the destruction of viet nam was more or less important than destruction of anyone else. (for more info on this, a good place to start is _Sisterhood Is Powerful_, edited by Robin Morgan, especially Marge Piercey's essay " Grand Cooley Dam " ) why should male tragedy come before female tragedy? why should human tragedy come before non-human tragedy? and anyway, what i notice is that it's not either or at all -- the war in viet nam had a *lot* to do with women's rights (just ask the " comfort women " who were forced into prostitution by the american military, or the huge numbers of women and children raped by soldiers on both sides...). similarly, the murder of animals is about human tragedy too. factory-farms and massive slaughterhouses need large numbers of people to work them, and since it's all about maximum profit, most of those people are severely exploited. what's so wrong with dignity for all? 2. " well.. i don't really see that's it's so cruel to eat animals. " alice walker said something i think is really useful: " the animals of the world exist for their own reasons. they were not made for humans any more than black people were made for whites, or women for men. " animals have their own lives, their own likes and dislikes, relationships with people and other animals. their life is not ours to take. why should it be ok to kill animals when it's not ok to kill humans? it seems to me that this friend believes that humans are more important, more valuable and worthwhile, than non-humans. this is supremacy, just like male supremacy or white supremacy. there can be many excuses for it, but there is no *good* reason for it. 3. " do you think it's cruel to go fishing.. catch a fish that has had a perfectly happy life.. and eat it? " do you think it's cruel to go to a playground, catch a child that has had a perfectly happy life, and eat it? 4. " i do see some good.. i just don't see the need to be so militant about it.... " it seems to me you are not being militant, toni, but your friend is. your friend seems to be a militant anti-vegetarian. (other words i would use to describe this sort of attitude are " speciesist " , which means about the same as " sexist " but about different species, or " human supremacist " .) and even if you are being militant, so what? at least you are fighting to *end* suffering, while your friend seems to be fighting to *continue* it. 5. " but you do think it's okay to kill humans? like as in capitol punishment? " capital punishment is a difficult issue, very complicated. people who support capital punishment for violent criminals generally do so because they think there is no other way to be safe from those crimes. but it doesn't make sense to compare this to killing animals for food. for one thing, the animals generally have not committed any major violence. also, there are lots of things we can eat besides animals, so while you can make the argument that we *need* to kill criminals, you cannot make the arguement that we *need* to kill animals. it would make more sense to compare capital punishment to animals who attack or kill others (animals or humans). this is a very difficult issue as well, but even if you decide it *is* necessary to kill humans and non-humans sometimes, that doesn't make it necessary to kill millions of animals who've never had an opportunity to do anything except be miserable so we can eat them. 6. " dr. jarvis writes that " on can spot ideologic vegetarians by their lack of skepticism, and their faulire to recognize the potintial risks even of extreme vegetarian diets. " i would argue that we can spot ideological corpse-eaters by their lack of skepticism, and their failure to recognize the potential risks of *any* kind of meat-eating. meat-eating has been linked over and over to heart disease, stroke, tons of different kinds of cancer, etc. vegetarianism has been linked to many kinds of health benefits. the research on this is not hard to find -- cruise the web if you're looking for some statistics, or check out " Diet For a New America " (by John Robbins). as a matter of fact i am extremely sceptical of *all* " scientific authority " , but for those who care about these things, the American Dietetic Association (i think that's what they're called?) has recently come out endorsing veganism as just as healthy as anything else. of course, a vegan who eats nothing but potato chips will probably be just as unhealthy as a meat-eater who eats nothing but one kind of meat, but it is pretty easy to be vegan and healthy -- just make sure to eat enough calories and get a variety of foods. 7. " it boggles me that you feel more compassion for animals than you do man. " this is exactly the kind of random stuff that makes these arguments so not-useful. you didn't claim that. it's clear tho, that your friend has more compassion for " man " , (and maybe women and children too, who knows than she does for other animals. that boggles *my* mind. why not have equal compassion for everyone? 8. " humans and the animals we eat are different. " how? many studies have attempted to prove this. each time scientists think they have found something that makes us different, and not just different but different in a way that makes it ok to harm animals but not humans, it gets disproven. some of the attempts i know of have been: trying to prove than humans use tools and no other animals do. this is false -- primates, beavers, otters and ants, as well as many other animals, use tools. language - lots of animals, from primates to bees, use language. in fact, some non-human animals can learn to use *human* language to communicate with *us*. furthermore, there have been primates (chimps i believe? can someone give more detail?) who learned human sign language and then taught it themselves to their young. abstract thought and math - some non-human primates can do math. in fact, even some species of wasps can do basic arithmetic. and so on. so anyway, it seems humans are not so special... just another animal among animals. but besides that, what if we *were* different? what if there's something humans can do that non-humans can't do? why does that make it ok to torture and kill non-humans? i mean, there's probably things you can do that i can't do, and that doesn't make it ok for you to have me for dinner. 9. " i think you project human emotions and feelings onto animals.. " animals have feelings, it's pretty hard to deny. anyone who's ever had a pet should know this. but i'm sure there's lots of scientific studies to bear this out too... i'm sure you can find some if you go looking, or maybe someone here knows of some? 10. " and just say everyone in the world stopped eating meat tomorrow... what would you have us do with all the extra cows? ... the world is not made to accomodate that many cattle for years and years and years. " it's true, this is a difficult question. what *would* we do? there are many different options. maybe we would have them all sterilized and turn cattle-ranching areas into sanctuaries where they would live out their lives. maybe they would become pets and be adopted by households. whatever. but even if the only thing we can do is to kill them all off, at least then we wno't be perpetually breeding mroe and more so mroe and more can be brutally slaughtered. it's true, the world *can't* accomodate more and more cows forever. yet that's exactly what's going to happen if everyone *keeps* on eating meat, because as the demand increases, mroe and more land is being turned into pasture so more and more cows can be bred and killed. and the fact is, the whole world isn't going to stop eating meat overnight. it's going to happen gradually, and as demand for cow- flesh gradually decreases, ranchers will breed less and less of them, cuz they just won't be able to cover the costs. and eventually, there will be no more meat-eaters, and no more ranches, and probably very few cows. 11. " and just what do you propose all those farmers do?? " there are lots of things to farm that aren't animals. there are lots of ways to farm that don't destroy the earth like slash-and-burn cattle ranching. if everyone were to stop eating meat, we probably would need less farmers, since so much of farm production currently goes to feed food animals. but as much as i'd *like* to wave my magic wand and make it all stop tomorrow, it won't. it will happen over generations, giving all the farm communities and families, and yes even the multinational factory-farm conglomerates, lots of time to shift into other industries. like coming up with a vegan " cheese " that actually tastes good 12. " i just kinda wanted to make sure you do keep it in persepective.. the cows aren't the only one's being treated bad here. " hate to break it to ya, but your friend is *not* trying to put things in " perspective " . she is trying to make it seem like human suffering is *more* important than non-human suffering. if it were just about " perspective " , she wouldn't have such a problem with your vegetarianism. keeping things in " perspective " demands that we take into consideration all suffering... something your friend has clearly refused to do (see # 1). even a basic review of the issues shows us that veganism is good for people and animals. veganism is one step toward a world where we suffer less from disease, we get to live in an environment that isn't destroyed by ranching and factory farming, we all get to eat because most of the world's food is no longer fed to factory- farmed animals... 13. " by going on a no animal by-product diet aren't you punishing the farmers that treat their animals good, as well as those who don't? " even the kindest farmer still slaughters their food animals. this isn't " good " treatment. if you are nice to me, does that make it ok for you to take away my life? of course not, my life is mine, not yours, no matter how nice you may be. see above for discussion of gradually phasing out animal-farming, and shifting to other industries. 14. " cows can't make a choice period. " that's just plain not true. cows, like cats, dogs, humans, and any other creature that feels pain, will choose to do things that feel good, and not do things that don't feel good. if they are given a choice. 15. " they don't know when someone is trying to slaughter them. they run when somone tries to pet them. they are not that intelligent hon. " actually, many cows are very affectionate, tho with your friend's attitude i can see why they wouldn't let her pet them. i wouldn't let her pet me either! i think that makes me *smart*, not stupid try watching the documentary movie " A Cow At My Table " to see exactly what cows do when someone is trying to slaughter them. you think they don't hear the cows in front of them in line squealing in terror, see them having their legs and necks broken, smell the shit and piss and blood? they do. cows frequently try to run from slaughter. but anyway, what if cows are totally stupid and don't know what's going on? tiny babies are totally clueless. i don't see anyone suggesting we hang them upside down by their ankles, slit their throats, pull their skin off while they're still alive, and start chopping off " ribs " and " chops " and " steaks " and " drumsticks " . sorry to get graphic here, i know it's upsetting, but i'm just trying to call it like it is. 16. " to me it seems to be a fart in a hurricane of unfairness " . i can understand feeling like some things are bigger and some things are smaller, but honestly i think that anyone who actually bothers to learn about this stuff, once they start really learning about all the different kinds of horrible stuff done to animals, just how terrifying it is, and start thinking about the sheer enormous *numbers* (millions and millions) of animals affected, would start to feel like this was one of the bigger ones, not the smaller ones. a few things that come to mind are anal electrocution, used to kill animals without damaging their fur, and force-feeding by pushing a tube down the throat that fattens goose liver for pate, and the " rape racks " used to keep dairy cows constantly pregnant, and the crushers that unwanted baby chicks are thrown into live, and the things that are done to animals in labs... *shudder* another good resource for this kind of thing is _Animal Liberation_, by Peter Singer. 17. " i just think if you wanna be an activist, there are much much worthier causes out there. " what makes one cause more worthy than another? is there some particular injustice that this friend things you are trivializing or ignoring? 18. " yet you'll mow down those migrant worker picked potatoes with out a care in the world for the poor person that picked them. and so you would have half the world out of a job.. " huh. this doesn't make any sense. first she's saying it's bad to eat things that come from farms that exploit their workers, then it's bad to not eat them cuz the exploited people won't have a job? people get exploited in all kinds of farm labour. obviously, we can support those farms that are not exploitative (my favourite method is community shared agriculture, where you buy direct from a small farmer whose labour practises you know), and at the same time phase out the farms that are harmful. the point is, no farm that slaughters feeling creatures is ever non- exploitative. 19. " will you be the one to pay for all the meat packers out of jobs? support them on your taxes? " first of all, there's no need for this. unemployment and underemployment and exploitative work environments are a problem, but meat eating isn't going to solve them. there are lots of other sectors of industry people could move to, including vegetable farming. but interestingly, in north america especially, huge amounts of our taxes are spent subsidizing *meat production*, because it's so incredibly costly in real terms (ranch land gets cleared and depleted so more is always needed, etc). so maybe if there was no meat industry to support anymore, we'd have enough taxes to pay welfare to the people out of work. 20. " then we'd all be anemic as well. " one of the oldest myths about veg diets, and one of the most untrue. there's tons of iron in plant food (think about it, a cow somehow gets an entire's cow's worth of iron out of eating just grass!). do a web search on this and i'm sure you'll turn up tons of evidence (hell, even frances moore lappe refuted this in diet for a small planet, like 30 years ago). hope some of this helps, mylène +++++++++++++ " Let's love ourselves then we can't fail to make a better situation... " ------------ Lauryn Hill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2000 Report Share Posted June 28, 2000 There have been many good replies to this but here's my 2 cents anyway... If you ever need easy and fast access to information try http://www3.sympatico.ca/anji/ (just let me know if you can't find what you're looking for). And remember, read a lot because there IS an answer to every meat-eater's question... > what he calls " ideologic vegetarianism " dr. jarvis > writes that " on can spot ideologic vegetarians by their > lack of skepticism, and their faulire to recognize the > potintial risks even of extreme vegetarian diets. It is the position of The American Dietetic Association (ADA) that appropriately planned vegetarian diets are healthful, are nutritionally adequate, and provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Scientific data suggest positive relationships between a vegetarian diet and reduced risk for several chronic degenerative diseases and conditions, including obesity, coronary artery disease, hypertension, diabetes mellitus, and some types of cancer. Studies indicate that vegetarians often have lower morbidity and mortality rates from several chronic degenerative diseases than do nonvegetarians. http://www.eatright.org/adap1197.html Most likely, the majority of vegetarians choose a meatless diet because they believe it is healthier. And they are right. The US Government has long encouraged reducing the amount of animal fat in American diets, because excessive fat contributes to poor health in many ways, including increasing the risk for some cancers. Vegetarian diets are healthful primarily because they reduce or eliminate fat derived from animal products, while containing almost the full range of vitamins and minerals essential to good health. A wide variety of fruits, vegetables, grains, and nuts is essential to a nutritionally- balanced diet. http://www.cancer.org/alt_therapy/vege.htm More articles: http://www3.sympatico.ca/anji/health.html Doctors' opinions: http://www3.sympatico.ca/anji/health_expert.html Food safety: http://www3.sympatico.ca/anji/health_safety.html Dairy: http://www3.sympatico.ca/anji/health_dairy.html Studies/news: http://www3.sympatico.ca/anji/news.html > do you think it's cruel to go fishing.. catch a fish > that has had a perfectly happy life.. and eat it? http://www.NoFishing.net/ Fish: What's the Catch? http://www.earthsave.org/news/fishwhat.htm The One That Got Away: New Seafood Regulations Come up Short http://www.PCRM.org/health/Commentary/commentary9807.html Hook, Line & PCB's http://www.veg.on.ca/newsletr/mayjun97/pcb.html http://www.ivu.org/animals/fish.html Whales Don't Eat Farmed Salmon - Should We? http://www.veg.on.ca/newsletr/marapr98/salmon.html America Samoa's coral reefs overfished http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9906/11/samoa.enn/ Oceans need our attention, says Worldwatch http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9903/25/oceans.enn/ > ...humans and the animals we eat are different. How are we different? Ask her, call her on it. > i think you project human emotions and feelings onto > animals.. The Practical Impossibility of Ignoring Emotion http://www.jeffreymasson.com/practical.impossibility.html Complexity of Emotion http://www.jeffreymasson.com/complexity.html Views of Animal Emotion; Lay and Scientific http://www.jeffreymasson.com/views.html The Functions and Benefits of Emotion http://www.jeffreymasson.com/functions.benefits.html Exploring the Forbidden Subject http://www.jeffreymasson.com/exploring.html Sharing the World with Feeling Creatures http://www.jeffreymasson.com/sharing.html > Crackbabyee: well.. what about the treatment of the > migratory workers that pick the vegetables? no great > feelings of compassion for them? Slaughterhouse The Shocking Story of Greed, Neglect, and Inhumane Treatment Inside the U.S. Meat Industry http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1573921661/102-1483022-4012921 http://www.meatstinks.com/lhaus.html While investigating the slaughter industry, Eisnitz gains the trust of dozens of workers across the United States. Without exception, the individuals interviewed admit to deliberately beating, strangling, boiling, or dismembering animals alive in violation of the federal Humane Slaughter Act or failing to report those who did -- all in an effort to " keep the production line running. " Many also discuss the web of violence in which they have become ensnared and the alcoholism and physical abuse that plague their personal lives. Determined to tell the whole story, Eisnitz then examines the physical price paid by employees working in one of America's most dangerous industries. In addition to suffering disfiguring injuries and crippling repetitive-motion disorders, employees describe tyrannical working conditions in which grievances are met with severe reprisals or dismissals. Exerpts from Slaughterhouse: http://www.meatstinks.com/lhause.html > Crackbabyee:they don't know when someone is trying to > slaughter them. > they run when somone tries to pet them. > they are not that intelligent hon. Ask your friend if we should then be eating and experimenting on mentally disabled people, or babies... Cows 'moo' to each other fairly frequently allowing them to maintain contact even when they cannot see each other. But when they can see each other, they also communicate through a series of different body positions and some facial expressions. Cows, like people, have a " personal space " around them called their flight zone. If you go inside a cows flight zone, he or she will back away. When cows are relaxed, the tail hangs straight down; when they are threatened, it hangs away from the body, and frightened cows will tuck their tail between their legs. Calves learn from their mothers which plants they should eat. Cows on a farm in Oregon learned to operate a drinking fountain. They push a lever with their muzzle or nose, which brings water into a little basin providing a pool. If they want more water, they push the lever again. Cows (and sheep) are known to be able to remember both good & bad events for at least 3 years. Cows can learn their names and will come running to you when call. Cows will baby-sit for one another. If several calves are born in a herd of cattle, the cows will share babysitting duties. One or two cows stay to watch over the newborns while the rest go for food or water. Even the bulls will take their turn! Cows scratching their ears can predict a storm because the hairs in the cow's ear are sensitive to low pressure and humidity and they will try to stay ahead of an approaching storm. More cow facts: http://www.hsus.org/programs/farm/nfaaw/nfaaw99_cows.html Farm animal heroes: http://www.hsus.org/programs/farm/nfaaw/nfaaw99_hero.html > Crackbabyee: i just think if you wanna be an activist, > there are much much worthier causes out there. Ask your friend what exactly she is doing about these " much worthier causes " . Why should I concern myself with [non-human] animal suffering when there are so many people suffering in the world? http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html#humansuffering ....pain is pain, and the importance of preventing unnecessary pain and suffering does not diminish because the being that suffers is not a member of our species. What would we think of someone who said that " whites come first " and that therefore poverty in Africa does not pose as serious a problem as poverty in Europe? The suffering that we inflict on nonhuman beings can be extreme, and the numbers involved are gigantic ... [and] should cause at least as much concern, especially since this suffering is so unnecessary and could easily be stopped if we wanted to stop it. In any case, the idea that " humans come first " is more often used as an excuse for not doing anything about either human or nonhuman animals than as a genuine choice between incompatible alternatives. For the truth is that there is no incompatibility here ... there is nothing to stop those who devote their time an energy to human problems from joining the boycott of the products of agribusiness cruelty. It takes no more time to be a vegetarian than to eat animal flesh. In fact ... those who claim to care about the well-being of human beings and the preservation of our environment should become vegetarians for that reason alone. They would thereby increase the amount of grain available to feed people everywhere, reduce pollution, save water and energy, and cease contributing to the clearing of forests; moreover, since a vegetarian diet is cheaper than one based on meat dishes, they would have more money available to devote to famine relief, population control, or whatever social or political cause they thought most urgent. ... [W]hen nonvegetarians say that " human problems come first, " I cannot help wondering what exactly it is that they are doing for human beings that compels them to continue to support the wasteful, ruthless exploitation of farm animals. " > and so you would have half the world out of a job.. > Crackbabyee: will you be the one to pay for all the > meat packers out of jobs? Many Nazi Germans were concerned about what would happen to all the SS officers unemployed after the war. > support them on your taxes? America's meat-based diet costs this country billions of dollars in health care costs and billions more in environmental destruction. http://www.taxmeat.com/ > then we'd all be anemic as well. http://www.vrg.org/nutrition/iron.htm http://www.korrnet.org/etvs/iron-info.html http://www.ivu.org/oxveg/Publications/Oven/Articles_DrRyde/1999-01.html > i guess they could all go into the vitamin business.. or > the life support business. Studies indicate that vegetarians often have lower morbidity and mortality rates from several chronic degenerative diseases than do nonvegetarians. http://www.eatright.org/adap1197.html -- ------------------------ Free email services provided by http://www.goodkarmacafe.com Powered by OutBlaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2000 Report Share Posted June 28, 2000 Dear Myl`ene; I really enjoyed your letter to Toni about her difficulty with her friend over veganism. I thought your letter was articulate and insightful. A couple of places you asked for further comments from the list: Myl`ene said:...language - lots of animals, from primates to bees, use language. in fact, some non-human animals can learn to use *human* language to communicate with *us*. furthermore, there have been primates (chimps i believe? can someone give more detail?) who learned human sign language and then taught it themselves to their young. Deborah: I agree with you that chimps are being taught to use human American Sign Language to communicate with people. I have a small friend, the young son of a local couple, who is fiercely vegan and AR conscious. He is presently raising money to go down to Seattle to visit one of the shelters where this is being done, so he can see it for himself and check it out. I think he plans to write an article for our local paper. I hope to report more about this after he returns. It may be September before I hear about his trip. Myl`ene said: ...animals have feelings, it's pretty hard to deny. anyone who's ever had a pet should know this. but i'm sure there's lots of scientific studies to bear this out too... i'm sure you can find some if you go looking, or maybe someone here knows of some? Deborah: I just recently was engaged in doing a small project of research with a friend (Hi Marco!) on the reaction of cattle to tramsportation. The veterinary research is abundantly clear that cattle suffer hugely when they are mistreated. I did a search for cattle transportation on the PubMed site, and came up with dozens of research papers on the topic. And that was JUST for the issue of transportation. I have also recently been studying about the body language of dogs. Their expressions of feelings are abundantly clear, and well documented by certified, qualified animal trainers, vets and other experts. The book I have been reading: Dog Speak by the editors of " Pets: Part of the Family " , a public television series. I'm looking forward to hearing more from you Myl`ene! Deborah in Gibsons, BC Canada PS How do you insert the accent in your name without making a space like I did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2000 Report Share Posted June 28, 2000 >Well, you wanted my twist on things, so here goes: > >I do favor the welfare of animals over people. No non-human animal ever >insulted me, emotionally abused me, or raped me. The non-human animals in >my life love me, are there for me, and think I'm special. They listen to >what I say without passing judgment. They are my best friends. I can't >say >all this about any human in my life. The non-human animals are superior to >humans in every way. > >I realize this is not a convincing argument for most people. But it's >truly >how I feel. Besides, when you say something like this, people think >you're >insane and possibly dangerous. Which at least gets them out of your face. >I shouldn't have to justify my eating habits or attire to anyone. > >-Annie I am at loss for words Annie, I find much to be concerned about in your statement - please don't be insulted by what I am about to type, but I just can't read something like this and let is pass by as " ok " . I find your statement to be a bit of an insult to all the humans on this list, and rather than snap back at you, I'm going to try and be maybe a little more careful with my wording than I have been in the past - though, I tend to type things as I would have said them in person, and without facial expressions and other important nuances of delivery to accompany them, my words tend to read rather harshly to those that don't know me well (the embarassingly ill-worded opener to LeatherIsMurder being a great example of this). I try to reserve terms like " superior " for things like stereo equipment and computer software - I believe that they have no place in conversations about living creatures. . . . I'm trying to remain light-hearted about this, and hope that maybe you were having a bad day. As it stands now, your statements seems to come straight from the mouth of a self-loathing comic-book villain. There is something funny in that for sure, but the limited exposure to various schools of psychology that I have had would lead me to believe that you have experienced some rather serious emotionally-traumatic experience(s) in your life. If this is the case, I am sorry to hear it. I myself and not the greatest " people person " in the world - in fact, I'd say that people are the most consistent source of dissapointment in my life. But I know I would be miserable without the few friends (human friends) that I am lucky to have, and I DO believe that that homo-sapiens are full of untapped potential. I hope that I live long enough to see some real progress in that respect. I even secretly hope that I can help with the process. If your not part of the solution. . . . . . . . . ( " solution " isn't a very healthy way to think about such things either, but I'm sure some of you know what I'm getting at) well, maybe I've completely humilited myself infront of the whole group now - this may be the end for Patrick Keller on planetvegan, but I'm just not good at keeping my mouth shut. . . . . take care all, pk > > ---------- > > LeatherIsMurder [sMTP:minusthemeat] > > Reply > > Tuesday, June 27, 2000 1:09 AM > > > > Re: BELIEFS BEING CHALLANGED *exhausting* > > > > , " Patrick Keller " > > <patrickkeller@h...> wrote: > > > LeatherIs. ... > > > > > > Might I suggest that both you and your friend brush up on your > > debating > > > skills, neither one of you makes a convincing argument towards > > anything. > > > > > > > > > > It never fails to astonish me how there is not one group of people > > that you can feel comfortable saying whats on your mind without > > someone trying to make you feel like an idiot. > > > > First of all. I did not post my responses as I did not want views on > > my responses...I wanted views on hers. > > > > I already pointed out that I have not been a vegan for a very long > > time and part of my " brushing up " is posting the arguments here and > > getting some other views.... > > > > Yes I realize that most of the what she says can be argued back with > > common sense arguments...but we all have our own little twist to > > things and I am actually more interested in hearing what all of you > > have to say with your own bits of information and ideas then I am > > being pumped up to show her up. > > > > I really resent being insulted when I have done nothing to deserve it. > > > > > > ------ > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. > > http://click./1/4634/6/_/651892/_/962117757/ > > ------ > > > > > > Post message: > > Subscribe: - > > Un: - > > List owner: -owner > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > /community/ > > ______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 28, 2000 Report Share Posted June 28, 2000 hi again, On 28 Jun 00, at 8:19, Deborah wrote: <snip -- many useful things that filled in details i didn't now > thanks for the kind words deborah, and glad you liked what i wrote. i want to thank toni too, for bringing this up, cuz it's a good opportunity for me to clarify what i think, and i too have been very interested to read other people's takes on this stuff. thanks toni! as well, toni, i've been thinking more about your post, and about my reply to it... it really seems to me that there is something else going on here with your friend, that your choice of diet or activism is not the real issue... what is it that your friend thinks the raelly important issue is, that animal rights is getting in the way of? is there maybe some way that she has been hurt that she thinks you are diminishing the importance of? i suspect that if you talk to her about her feelings about what injustices she thinks are important, and why, you may get further than just defending yourself... the way i think of it is that everything ties together... so fighting any one kind of injustice links into fighting them all. for example, understanding how we put down other species can help us understand and fight the ways that *humans* are sometimes degraded by being treated *like* animals... this is a frequent theme i've noticed in patterns of racism. also, understanding the hatred directed against anyone female can lead us to a better understanding of the ways dairy and egg production are about exploiting specifically female animals in specifically female ways, which i think can help us understand forced sex and forced reproduction in the lives of women and girls. anyway, maybe if you can find some way to make a link between different injustices, it will make sense to your friend that your animal-rights concerns do not work against her... that you're not going to spend so much time focussing on animals that you'll forget about the " hurricane of injustice " . just a thought. mylène ps: deborah also wrote: > PS How do you insert the accent in your name without making a > space like I did? heehee. i find it really touching when people will go out of their way to spell my non-english name correctly! if you are using the windows operating system, you should be able to hold down the " alt " key, then type the numbers 0 2 3 2 on the *keypad*, not the numbers across the top of the letter keys, then let go of " alt " . " è " should appear! to find codes (called ascii values) for other characters, click your start button, click on programs, then accessories, then character map (if it's not there, you may have to look in " system tools " , or else install it from the cd). does anyone know the way to do this for other operating systems? ++++++++ " [We] are only beginning to uncover our own truths; many of us ... would be glad just to lie down with the sherds we have painfully uncovered... The politics worth having, the relationships worth having, demand that we delve still deeper. " Adrienne Rich -------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2000 Report Share Posted June 29, 2000 Hi there, I'm new here, and I cannot even call myself vegan yet, but I have been mostly vegetarian for three years (now eating no meat, and little dairy) and have been reading a lot of books, I can get obsessed sometimes. And let me tell you, even though none of my friends or family have given me a hard time, social pressure is the main reason I have not been vegan all these years. So I congratulate you and everyone else. The responses to your question so far have been very intelligent, and I especially agree with the person who said that all issues are connected and when you help in one area, the effects ripple throughout. Just living by example and letting people see that you care about something enough in order to do a socially stressful thing should inspire others to follow their hearts, find their humanity and help the world in whatever way that gets them excited, whether it be animals, battered women, prisoners, or whatever. Yes, diet for a new america (nominated for a pulitzer prize, I heard) is great, but I LOVE to recommend to my meat-eating friends " The perfectly contented meat-eater's guide to vegetarianism " It is very funny, not heavy handed at all. Read it yourself, you'll laugh so hard you'll cry. Plus it promotes veganism, too. Plus, at my library (look at yours) they have a video of " Diet for a New America " which was aired on PBS. On animals, two recent books full of interesting, funny, etc stories about the capacities of non-human animals I recommed are " The Parrot's Lament " and " Inside the animal mind " PETA also has factsheets you can copy, Im using their material (all footnoted and everything) to make a little pamphlet for people so I can easily just say, " look, Im eating here, but if youre really intersted, read this. " I may even leave them around in restrooms and stuff like the religious people do! http://www.peta- online.org/mc/facts/index.html But your post reminded me very much of what I wrote to my meat-eating boyfriend today. He is very supportive and proud of me, but has no intentions of adopting any ideologies about food except that he eats GOOD (as in gourmet) food and he eats low-fat (as much as a meeat eater can) It is very frustrating to me at times, but I think it is good to have him around to keep me in touch with how the other half thinks. But sometimes I have to vent to him, and I usually learn alot about myself in the process. So here is an excerpt- ********************************************* I think that one of the main reasons that people like to talk about all the reasons it's unhealthy or stupid, inconvenient, yadda... or otherwise not an option for a normal person to stop eating meat or even just to eat better- is to avoid thinking of meat eating as a CHOICE. One CHOOSES to eat meat one CHOOSES to not exercise. Once someone accepts that they are CHOOSING to do or not do something, they are accepting responsibility for the consequences. If I eat meat bc I love it so much I could never give it up), then I do not need to feel bad about the environmental destruction I am causing or the misery I am causing, because I COULDN'T ever give it up. The same goes for driving a car instead of riding my bike or what ever. However, the only way I could have become a veg*n, was through becoming conscious of what I was doing with each food choice I made, no longer disassociating myself from my actions. One of the reasons people get depressed, as I often am, is through a feeling of a lack of autonomy. I feel that even if for no other reason veg*nism has been good, it has good in that it has introduced to me a feeling of autonomy, has forced me to examine my choices one by one, and given me a sense of triumph. I will hopefully become more confident asserting myself once I learn to explain my choices WITHOUT the need for justification or apology I will hopefully use this experience to become more conscious of my choices in the many other areas of my life that need self-discipline. Plus, now if I throw out an aluminum can bc I cant find a recycle bin, I feel less guilty bc I remember all the water and soil I'm saving everyday!!! ************************ Even though I think your friend is giving you a hard time, do you remmeber when you started thinking about going veg? I had a hard time really getting in touch with what I KNEW ddep down was true. I just tried not to think about it, bc it would be painful, and it was at first. Think about the first time you really realized how we treat animals. Its overwelming, and I dont hold it against people when they look away. But once my beliefs and my actions became more consistent (and they will more and more) it was a weight lifted off of me, and I was able to feel more goodness toward the world becaue I was dealing more honestly with it. So my advice is, tell your friedn that if they are truly interested, read the books we are recommending. Most people you wont ever change, but you can get them to open their minds, making it easier for other veg*ns. Otherwise, just lead by example, its the most powerful way to influence people. GOOD LUCK!!!! G PS- Im sure Ill need advice too!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2000 Report Share Posted June 29, 2000 Well, you wanted my twist on things, so here goes: I do favor the welfare of animals over people. No non-human animal ever insulted me, emotionally abused me, or raped me. The non-human animals in my life love me, are there for me, and think I'm special. They listen to what I say without passing judgment. They are my best friends. I can't say all this about any human in my life. The non-human animals are superior to humans in every way. I realize this is not a convincing argument for most people. But it's truly how I feel. Besides, when you say something like this, people think you're insane and possibly dangerous. Which at least gets them out of your face. I shouldn't have to justify my eating habits or attire to anyone. -Annie > ---------- > LeatherIsMurder [sMTP:minusthemeat] > Reply > Tuesday, June 27, 2000 1:09 AM > > Re: BELIEFS BEING CHALLANGED *exhausting* > > , " Patrick Keller " > <patrickkeller@h...> wrote: > > LeatherIs. ... > > > > Might I suggest that both you and your friend brush up on your > debating > > skills, neither one of you makes a convincing argument towards > anything. > > > > > It never fails to astonish me how there is not one group of people > that you can feel comfortable saying whats on your mind without > someone trying to make you feel like an idiot. > > First of all. I did not post my responses as I did not want views on > my responses...I wanted views on hers. > > I already pointed out that I have not been a vegan for a very long > time and part of my " brushing up " is posting the arguments here and > getting some other views.... > > Yes I realize that most of the what she says can be argued back with > common sense arguments...but we all have our own little twist to > things and I am actually more interested in hearing what all of you > have to say with your own bits of information and ideas then I am > being pumped up to show her up. > > I really resent being insulted when I have done nothing to deserve it. > > > ------ > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. > http://click./1/4634/6/_/651892/_/962117757/ > ------ > > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > /community/ > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2000 Report Share Posted June 29, 2000 personally..i am one hundred percent behind you in that statement annie. just wanted to let you know someone else saw the same way you do. robin Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2000 Report Share Posted June 29, 2000 I had no one on this list in mind when I typed that reply - don't feel any need to censor yourself on my account. Over the years I've developed a tolerance to words - after all they're only words. But I stand by what I said. I realize that I'm in the minority in how I feel and that my words come off as harsh. But it is honestly what I think. I cannot share your optimistic view of the human race. Of course, I have met exceptions. But they are just that, exceptions and not the rule. As a whole, I find the human race brutal and vicious. I don't expect anyone to support me in that opinion, I was just voicing my honest thoughts. -Annie > " Patrick Keller " <patrickkeller > > >RE: Re: BELIEFS BEING CHALLANGED *exhausting* >Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:48:29 PDT > > > > > >Well, you wanted my twist on things, so here goes: > > > >I do favor the welfare of animals over people. No non-human animal ever > >insulted me, emotionally abused me, or raped me. The non-human animals >in > >my life love me, are there for me, and think I'm special. They listen to > >what I say without passing judgment. They are my best friends. I can't > >say > >all this about any human in my life. The non-human animals are superior >to > >humans in every way. > > > >I realize this is not a convincing argument for most people. But it's > >truly > >how I feel. Besides, when you say something like this, people think > >you're > >insane and possibly dangerous. Which at least gets them out of your >face. > >I shouldn't have to justify my eating habits or attire to anyone. > > > >-Annie > >I am at loss for words Annie, I find much to be concerned about in your >statement - please don't be insulted by what I am about to type, but I just >can't read something like this and let is pass by as " ok " . I find your >statement to be a bit of an insult to all the humans on this list, and >rather than snap back at you, I'm going to try and be maybe a little more >careful with my wording than I have been in the past - though, I tend to >type things as I would have said them in person, and without facial >expressions and other important nuances of delivery to accompany them, my >words tend to read rather harshly to those that don't know me well (the >embarassingly ill-worded opener to LeatherIsMurder being a great example of >this). > > I try to reserve terms like " superior " for things like stereo equipment >and computer software - I believe that they have no place in conversations >about living creatures. . . . I'm trying to remain light-hearted about >this, >and hope that maybe you were having a bad day. As it stands now, your >statements seems to come straight from the mouth of a self-loathing >comic-book villain. There is something funny in that for sure, but the >limited exposure to various schools of psychology that I have had would >lead >me to believe that you have experienced some rather serious >emotionally-traumatic experience(s) in your life. > >If this is the case, I am sorry to hear it. I myself and not the greatest > " people person " in the world - in fact, I'd say that people are the most >consistent source of dissapointment in my life. But I know I would be >miserable without the few friends (human friends) that I am lucky to have, >and I DO believe that that homo-sapiens are full of untapped potential. I >hope that I live long enough to see some real progress in that respect. I >even secretly hope that I can help with the process. If your not part of >the solution. . . . . . . . . > >( " solution " isn't a very healthy way to think about such things either, but >I'm sure some of you know what I'm getting at) > >well, > >maybe I've completely humilited myself infront of the whole group now - >this >may be the end for Patrick Keller on planetvegan, but I'm just not good at >keeping my mouth shut. . . . . > >take care all, > >pk > > > > ---------- > > > LeatherIsMurder [sMTP:minusthemeat] > > > Reply > > > Tuesday, June 27, 2000 1:09 AM > > > > > > Re: BELIEFS BEING CHALLANGED *exhausting* > > > > > > , " Patrick Keller " > > > <patrickkeller@h...> wrote: > > > > LeatherIs. ... > > > > > > > > Might I suggest that both you and your friend brush up on your > > > debating > > > > skills, neither one of you makes a convincing argument towards > > > anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It never fails to astonish me how there is not one group of people > > > that you can feel comfortable saying whats on your mind without > > > someone trying to make you feel like an idiot. > > > > > > First of all. I did not post my responses as I did not want views on > > > my responses...I wanted views on hers. > > > > > > I already pointed out that I have not been a vegan for a very long > > > time and part of my " brushing up " is posting the arguments here and > > > getting some other views.... > > > > > > Yes I realize that most of the what she says can be argued back with > > > common sense arguments...but we all have our own little twist to > > > things and I am actually more interested in hearing what all of you > > > have to say with your own bits of information and ideas then I am > > > being pumped up to show her up. > > > > > > I really resent being insulted when I have done nothing to deserve it. > > > > > > > > > >------ > > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. > > > http://click./1/4634/6/_/651892/_/962117757/ > > > >------ > > > > > > > > > Post message: > > > Subscribe: - > > > Un: - > > > List owner: -owner > > > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > > /community/ > > > > >______________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 29, 2000 Report Share Posted June 29, 2000 Of course, I have met exceptions. But >they are just that, exceptions and not the rule. As a whole, I find the >human race brutal and vicious. I don't expect anyone to support me in that >opinion, I was just voicing my honest thoughts. As a whole, we ARE brutal and vicious, but so are most omnivorous (high on food chain) animals in thier " natural " habitat. As I've said b4, I grew up with LOTS of animals on a farm - 40 or so cats, 10 or so dogs, cattle, rabbits, enough birds for another Hitchcock film - and trust me, animals are more than capable of weilding acts of cruelty and viciousness upon each other (and even upon humans, I've found that not all animals are crazy about the idea of domestication, who would have thought? all of the cats were " wild " and did as they pleased without much human interaction, they were the most vicious of all) - I love being in the company of affectionate animals (especially dogs), but the vast majority of animals on this planet are not " pets " , and do not enjoy being with humans at that much at all. With the amount of work it takes to " tame " an animal that is not receptive to humans, I'm sure you could also soften up most of the tough cookies in our own soiciety. What if you were trapped in a room with someone you didn't like? and they just talked soft affectionate jibberish to you all day while offering you treats? Wouldn't you eventually warm up to them? I know this last point is really silly, but think about if for a second. . . . aren't most people better at immediate and completely open affection towards non-human animals, than they are toward each other? Most people feel quite alright touching, petting, and talking affectionately to a dog they just saw on the street, wilst a human stranger would probably never get more than a smile, a hello, and maybe some light conversation. It's much more complex than this for sure, but there's got to be something to it. I'd like for us humans, as a whole, to gradually become less brutal and vicious. That is why I support a diet as cruelty free as possible, and hope that veganism becomes a global epidemic in the coming years. well, I gotta go, thanks to all for the interesting conversation, pk > >-Annie > > > > " Patrick Keller " <patrickkeller > > > > > >RE: Re: BELIEFS BEING CHALLANGED *exhausting* > >Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:48:29 PDT > > > > > > > > > > >Well, you wanted my twist on things, so here goes: > > > > > >I do favor the welfare of animals over people. No non-human animal >ever > > >insulted me, emotionally abused me, or raped me. The non-human animals > >in > > >my life love me, are there for me, and think I'm special. They listen >to > > >what I say without passing judgment. They are my best friends. I >can't > > >say > > >all this about any human in my life. The non-human animals are >superior > >to > > >humans in every way. > > > > > >I realize this is not a convincing argument for most people. But it's > > >truly > > >how I feel. Besides, when you say something like this, people think > > >you're > > >insane and possibly dangerous. Which at least gets them out of your > >face. > > >I shouldn't have to justify my eating habits or attire to anyone. > > > > > >-Annie > > > >I am at loss for words Annie, I find much to be concerned about in your > >statement - please don't be insulted by what I am about to type, but I >just > >can't read something like this and let is pass by as " ok " . I find your > >statement to be a bit of an insult to all the humans on this list, and > >rather than snap back at you, I'm going to try and be maybe a little more > >careful with my wording than I have been in the past - though, I tend to > >type things as I would have said them in person, and without facial > >expressions and other important nuances of delivery to accompany them, my > >words tend to read rather harshly to those that don't know me well (the > >embarassingly ill-worded opener to LeatherIsMurder being a great example >of > >this). > > > > I try to reserve terms like " superior " for things like stereo >equipment > >and computer software - I believe that they have no place in >conversations > >about living creatures. . . . I'm trying to remain light-hearted about > >this, > >and hope that maybe you were having a bad day. As it stands now, your > >statements seems to come straight from the mouth of a self-loathing > >comic-book villain. There is something funny in that for sure, but the > >limited exposure to various schools of psychology that I have had would > >lead > >me to believe that you have experienced some rather serious > >emotionally-traumatic experience(s) in your life. > > > >If this is the case, I am sorry to hear it. I myself and not the >greatest > > " people person " in the world - in fact, I'd say that people are the most > >consistent source of dissapointment in my life. But I know I would be > >miserable without the few friends (human friends) that I am lucky to >have, > >and I DO believe that that homo-sapiens are full of untapped potential. >I > >hope that I live long enough to see some real progress in that respect. I > >even secretly hope that I can help with the process. If your not part of > >the solution. . . . . . . . . > > > >( " solution " isn't a very healthy way to think about such things either, >but > >I'm sure some of you know what I'm getting at) > > > >well, > > > >maybe I've completely humilited myself infront of the whole group now - > >this > >may be the end for Patrick Keller on planetvegan, but I'm just not good >at > >keeping my mouth shut. . . . . > > > >take care all, > > > >pk > > > > > > ---------- > > > > LeatherIsMurder [sMTP:minusthemeat] > > > > Reply > > > > Tuesday, June 27, 2000 1:09 AM > > > > > > > > Re: BELIEFS BEING CHALLANGED *exhausting* > > > > > > > > , " Patrick Keller " > > > > <patrickkeller@h...> wrote: > > > > > LeatherIs. ... > > > > > > > > > > Might I suggest that both you and your friend brush up on your > > > > debating > > > > > skills, neither one of you makes a convincing argument towards > > > > anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It never fails to astonish me how there is not one group of people > > > > that you can feel comfortable saying whats on your mind without > > > > someone trying to make you feel like an idiot. > > > > > > > > First of all. I did not post my responses as I did not want views on > > > > my responses...I wanted views on hers. > > > > > > > > I already pointed out that I have not been a vegan for a very long > > > > time and part of my " brushing up " is posting the arguments here and > > > > getting some other views.... > > > > > > > > Yes I realize that most of the what she says can be argued back with > > > > common sense arguments...but we all have our own little twist to > > > > things and I am actually more interested in hearing what all of you > > > > have to say with your own bits of information and ideas then I am > > > > being pumped up to show her up. > > > > > > > > I really resent being insulted when I have done nothing to deserve >it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > >------ > > > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. > > > > http://click./1/4634/6/_/651892/_/962117757/ > > > > > >------ > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: > > > > Subscribe: - > > > > Un: - > > > > List owner: -owner > > > > > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > > > /community/ > > > > > > > >______________________ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > >______________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > ______________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2000 Report Share Posted July 19, 2000 Hello. Sorry i am so late posting to this but i just joined the list and i'm catching up on the status quo. i agree with just about everything in response to your plight and it looks to me like you got some great advice. i forgot who it was who was pointing out the pointlessness of arguing with people like this (actually i think it was a few people), but i agree with that to an extent. This person seems as if they are just desperately trying to rationalize what they've accepted as moral behaviour all of their life, and they don't seem to want to change. If this person asks you questions, just answer them in the friendliest, most non-accusative manner you can. If he/she verbally attacks you, just point out how insensitive and stubborn they are being (kindly and gently though; don't phrase it the way i just did) and ask them to stop unless they are willing to discuss it with more of an open mind. Arguments like this only seem to end up hardening the omnivore's stubbornness, no matter what an honest effort you put in to educate them. The best thing you can do around a person like this is just to set a good example and try not to push your beliefs upon them. Just wait for them to bring it up (which already seems to be the case), but don't waste your time trying to change the person's mind if they are just trying to " derail " you, as i remember someone else putting it. As for the death penalty... personally, i believe that if you are going to extend your compassion to other species, it should be easy to extend it to those on death row as well. i am not saying that they are any more important; only that i believe you should make your sympathy more universal. i can understand your argument that people, at least, did something to deserve or provoke the death penalty. But this is not always the case. Very many people are wrongly accused, convicted, and sentenced and there is absolutely no way to create an error-proof judicial system. And even the ones who have committed crimes could very likely reform themselves and this should be the goal of society (to reform them, rather than to exterminate them). i just believe that it is wrong, in any scenario, for anybeing to be cornered into death by a larger system which claims the right to revoke life. It makes me sick. But these are my own personal opinions and i don't judge others based on their beliefs (if i did, i wouldn't have a single friend). So if i sound accusative, i don't mean to be. i'm just passionate about some things. And besides that, i think that the veg*n community would be a receptive audience to anti-death penalty suggestions. Veg*ns are inherently compassionate, place high values on the right to live, and are not afraid to challenge the system. If you haven't formed a strong opinion on this issue yet, i suggest you do some internet research and that will probably cause you to think more about it. i only brought this up because it seemed to be one of the only issues not really addressed in this posting. And i can see it turning into some sort of flame-war or something since this is such a sensitive issue with radicals on both sides. So just as a precautionary measure, i'd like to ask everyone to be nice and receptive to each other. i probably needn't ask something like that in a place like this, chock full of nice people. i am just interested though, in where other veg*ns stand on the issue of the death penalty. It seems to me like there would be some significant crossing-over, so i am interested in the demographics. One last note -- i too think that your friend's comments about activism were ridiculous. Almost anyone can agree that the world is screwed up. And i don't think it should matter at all which area(s) you choose to try and reform. Just by taking part in any movement, you are doing more than the average person and should be proud of it. Once again, i'm sorry to post this so late. This probably won't do anyone any good, but i just felt like releasing some of my thoughts. i myself have been a vegan for only a few weeks, vegetarian for maybe a month and a half (gradually cutting out dairy and other atrocities). So by no means do i claim to be any sort of expert, but i have experienced the same sorts of people-problems that any animal-friendly person is bound to eventually. It boggles me that people feel the need to mock and ridicule when they see someone take the initiative to act upon their morals. We aren't causing any harm or accusing anyone of anything, but for some reason, others just get so defensive that they feel the need to try and disprove our beliefs and make fun of us. Well that is enough rambling for now. Have a good day and night, everyone! - casey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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