Mixed Marriages

June 30, 2000

We often hear of " MIXED MARRIAGES " in the context

of marriages of persons who marry someone of a

different religious background.

Surely we all have our thoughts about what that

implies, and perhaps even some solid judgments

about the feasibility and advisability of all that.

Much could be said, but that's not the purpose

of this e-mail.

In the course of hearing people I often here from

a vegetarian married to a vegetarian (typically the wife)

explaining to me (phrasing my own):

My husband hasn't yet discovered the benefits to

himself of his own pursuing a plant-based diet,

but we love him no less, even though it grieves

me to think of what his diet is doing to him,

to the earth, and to other animals.

I think that thought is one worth exploring

in the realization that perhaps MOST

marriages of vegetarians are probably

" mixed " , at least for a period of time,

IF (and when) the couple married as

nonvegetarians and one person really

feels convicted about the wisdom and

advisability of becoming vegetarian.

I'm a strong supporter of bonding and

supporting the marriage and the family,

and it grieves me to see EITHER

nonvegetarian living OR the breakup

of a marriage on the basis of a values

conflict around what one considers to

be merely idiosyncratic food choices

and another earnestly believes to be

a fundamental recognition of moral values

that reaches to the core of what

human existence is about, with out

presumably unique qualities to

comprehend and to plan our lives

in accord with solid recognitions

of how the world at hand for us

actually is.

DISCUSSION?

Maynard

June 30, 2000

In response to Maynard opening the discussion of non-vegetarian/vegetarian

marriage.

I have been married 22 years, have been vegan 15 and have taught courses on

vegan diet. Over these years, I have seen this particular issue from both

sides, from the inside and the outside, so I will share some of my thoughts on

the matter.

Fortunately for me, I married a man with a high priority on eating

healthfully, so when I found out about eating vegan, he was relatively willing

to be convinced. Over the first year or so, when he was hit with cravings, he

would complain. I reminded him that he could buy and cook anything he wanted

for himself, but that I was willing only to put foods on the table that I felt

good about feeding our family. I think that helped him to ride through the

cravings, because he always calmed down then and dropped the matter.

In my years of teaching people about vegan diet, I have encountered a number

of " mixed " couples where the one (yes, usually the wife) is vegetarian and the

other (to some degree) reluctant to change. The first two couples I met like

this, both of the women made a big deal about the conflict, ended up leaving

their husbands over it and then returned to meat-eating themselves. This showed

me that the food issue can be used as a lever by people to release themselves

from relationships when they want out of it anyway.

The most recent " mixed " couple I have met, it took him a year to give up

meat, and then another year after that to give up dairy. But he gradually came

around to it, and strongly. I think this is because she has been consistent

herself, continued to want him to make the change and has continued to develop

and share her own knowledge so that he gradually internalized the advantages and

wisdom of the lifestyle. At this point, he still makes exceptions for himself

at times, but then so does she. So, I see the food issue as just one of many

issues that a committed couple may have to work out and resolve for the

relationship to grow and thrive. While I understand that such key/core issues

can seem threatening, I think having and working them out tends to be a very

bonding experience.

In general, I understand that it is important for women to express their

feelings verbally. When a woman is feeling grieved that he isn't eating vegan,

it is good for her to express this to a sympathetic listener. Saying this out

loud may be all she needs to help her to advance her own thinking on the matter.

After airing her feelings, she is more likely to then see the next step for

herself to take.

It may be helpful to ask her if she has told her husband how she feels and

what she wants. If she hasn't and expresses resistance to doing so, she needs

to understand that as long as she withholds telling him her feelings and needs,

he is free to assume that she is happy with things as they are.

As he makes his changes, she may be surprised to find herself confronting

levels of resistance within herself too.

And of course it can be experienced over any issue. If food isn't the

critical issue for a couple, it may be sex, money, communication, religion or

something else. While such critical issues can be sources of conflict, when

couples choose to work out such critical issues together, I have found that the

resulting relationship (and the individuals) can be much happier and stronger

for it.

When the one partner starts eating vegan for compassionate reasons, because

opposites attract, the resistant partner will often have a more factual

mind-set. Such a couple can work this out if the two want to, because eating

vegan satisfies both the compassionate and factual aspects of dietary choice,

but it may still take work. And it seems to me that it is usually the leader

(the person who went vegan first) who gets to do the work of finding and

presenting the information required by the resistant one.

The way I see it, there are two parts to the persuasion a woman can present

to a man when she wants him to do something: 1. what she wants him to do, and 2.

why. Women sometimes have to learn to ASK their husbands to do what they want

them to do and encourage him with appreciation and enthusiasm when he makes some

effort.

My husband tells me that in our 22 years of an increasingly happy marriage,

it is his greatest satisfaction to make me happy. I have heard that that is

true for men in general, that it is their greatest satisfaction in life to

please his woman. You men-types agree?

And for her part, a major feat for many women, is to get her thoughts clear

on what she wants, and to tell him clearly and directly.

Deborah in BC, CANADA

July 1, 2000

I have been hoping to discuss this with people who may have had

similar experiences. When I met my current meat-eating SO of 11

months, I was just entering into a phase of renewed commitment to my

dietary choices and most recently have been moving ever closer to

veganism.

My SO fortunately is into eating healthy. However, he loves to

cook, sees it as an expression of love and creativity, and can't

imaging giving up animal products from his " palette " of ingredients.

He is a very caring person who loves animals, but until I came around

had never thought about certain diets as a form of cruelty towards

animals, and I doubt that he's really ready to face up to that idea

yet. I dont think he's a " bad " person or anything. In fact, he

gives me feedback on different ideas I have for influenceing non-

veg*ns.

Fortunatly, bc of me, he has learned to cook and enjoy vegetarin

foods. But now that I am making more restrictions, I feel as if it

will make things more frustrating for him, and make me feel

uncomfortable expressing my true wishes (or even more so when I

dont.) This will be especially true when we go out to eat-

fortunately he loves Indian food.

I don't want to pressure him to change out of respect for his own

autonomy. Maybe he will one day, I dont know. But for now, I have a

great relationship, but think sometimes that we are living in two

different worlds when it comes to how we view humans' use of animals

for food. (he actually would never go to the zoo or go to a circus

with animals or buy a fur, but has no intention of going veg- even

after reading that book 'Slaughterhouse'!). Not

sharing a worldview on something so central to one's identity can

make one feel alone and unsupported even when the other is

sympathetic and supportive. How can I feel he's really interested in

hearing about the latest study or investigation?

Fortunately we're not getting engaged or having kids anytime soon,

but I know I'd have to think about this if we did.

I'll enjoy hearing other people's experiences.

Thank you, G

July 2, 2000

G said: Not sharing a worldview on something so central to one's identity

can

make one feel alone and unsupported ....

I think your feelings are completely understandable and valid. If veganism

is central to your identity, I think it is worth asking him to adopt a vegan

diet.

I think that asking your SO to make such a switch is a perfectly sound and

appropriate thing to do. I think it is completely respectful of his autonomy

because he CAN say no! I think in general, guys find it relatively easy to say

no when they mean no. Hopefully he'll say yes!

It sounds like he is most of the way there on his own, and may just need to

understand how you feel about it, and what you would prefer. It seems to me that

asking him to do this would be an investment in the stability, harmony and

happiness of your relationship over the long term. I think that is worth the

effort!

Also, there is FAR more to be gained for him personally than to be lost. On

top of the health, ethical and environmental contributions for which he can feel

proud of himself, I think it would increase your trust, admiration and gratitude

for him if he makes the switch. Hopefully, he values your happiness and

feelings for him more than animal products!

When my husband agreed to eat vegan at my request, I felt tremendous

gratitude and an increase in my sense of self-respect. That he saw the validity

of my request and honoured it made me feel very good! It seemed (and still

seems) to me like a very tangible way that he expressed his love and respect for

me.

I will suggest some approachs: how about telling him that you would enjoy

his cooking even MORE if he used only plant foods. If he does it as an

expression of creativity, you can encourage him by saying " Let's see what you

can do with a 100% plant food menu! " . You can propose that he think of it as

opening up a whole new level of creativity, rather than taking anything from the

palette.

If he does it as an expression of love, he will be wanting to do it in a way

that gets the message across fully. Would it be true for you to say: " It would

make me feel MORE loved if you cooked only with plant foods. " ?

G asked: How can I feel he's really interested in hearing about the latest

study or investigation?

I think that is a good question. I'm thinking it would be good to ask him

how he feels about these things.

I think that you are wise to make this a priority at this stage in your

relationship!

Deborah in BC, CANADA

July 2, 2000

G said: Fortunatly, bc of me, he has learned to cook and enjoy vegetarin

foods.

It sounds like you are a good influence on him and that he is benefiting

from doing what pleases you!

G: But now that I am making more restrictions, I feel as if it will make

things more frustrating for him,

I think that is a completely understandable fear. It sounds like you really

want and enjoy the relationship, and also would really this particular issue

cleared up. Is that right?

It is good that you understand how giving up anything can result in

frustration, so that is something you can deal with in advance by also asking

him to " Please ENJOY cooking and eating 100% vegan! "

On another level, have you read the Mars and Venus series by John Gray?

www.marsandvenus.com He explains how men thrive when rising to meet challenges.

So, if he encounters some frustration along the way, it is apparently good for

him to cope with that because it tends to increase a man's committment to his

relationship when he gets to feel like a hero for her sake. (I think this is

one of the ways men and women are very different!)

and make me feel uncomfortable expressing my true wishes (or even more so

when I

dont.)

Exactly! As a woman, I can totally relate to what you are saying, that it

can be difficult, even scary at times to express one's true wishes. I also agree

with you that holding back tends to only makes things worse! So, if we agree

that we need to say what we want, the next question is how to do it as

pleasantly and easily as possible.

There are some tools of female-to-male communication that I have found very

helpful that I picked up from John Gray's recommendations that have worked for

me with my husband every time! It starts with the woman telling the man that

she needs to talk to him about something important and asking when would be a

good time for him to listen. This gives him warning so he can prepare himself

to hear something that may be challenging to him. He is more likely to respond

rationally rather than reactively this way.

When he is ready to listen, the next most important thing is to ask him to

" Please JUST LISTEN quietly while I tell you this. " I have generally found this

to be an essential step. John Gray explains about why this is.

Step three is to tell him how much you appreciate him and how much he makes

you happy in so many ways. This will encourage him to listen; very important!

If he is the one for you, making you happy will be the most important thing to

him, so hearing that he is doing so will be deeply satisfying to him.

Step 4 is to say what you want. I am of the impression that you would

really like him to eat and cook 100% vegan because a. it would make you feel

happy and b. it would help you make the progress to 100% vegan that you would

like to make yourself. Is that right?

Wishing you all the best G...

Deborah in BC, CANADA

July 19, 2000

This is a very interesting topic. My father is an atheist and my

mother is a Christian and although they are still together after

nearly 30 years, i can tell that this causes a lot of problems

between them. And i think that veganism and any other strong beliefs

will act in exactly the same way. It's really too bad that things

like this can get in the way, but they will and we have to fix them.

Even before i was dating my girlfriend (vegan), i couldn't bring

myself to eat meat in front of her. This was because i understood

how she viewed this activity and it made me much more conscious of it

myself. And after i had refrained from animal consumption a few

times because of her prescence, i started to think about it every

time i ate and just stopped eating meat. But i neglected to tell my

parents (or anyone for that matter) about this because i knew that

they would give me a lot of ***t about it. Because of this, i let

myself be forced into eating meat at a two-family gathering (they

didn't even have non-meat alternatives and for some reason, i was

afraid of bringing up the issue). So i ended up eating some sausage

and it really did a number on my conscience. The next time my mother

mentioned that she was cooking meat, i had to inform her that i

wouldn't partake. And i was right about my parents ridiculing me,

but it was well worth it to get out of eating animals.

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, my girlfriend never even really

brought the subject up to me. She answered some questions i had

once, but that was it. i can testify though, that her veganism made

me feel like a worse person and i think that if i had chosen to

continue being omnivorous, it would have created some larger

problems. But i am glad that she unknowingly caused me to reconsider

my consumption habits. i think that the best thing that the veg*n of

a " mixed " couple can do is not to pass judgement and not to force

anything right away. However, if the non-veg*n of the pair does not

express any interest after a while, i would definately advocate

bringing it up. i for one, am grateful to everyone who ever made me

think about my animal consumption (mostly my girlfriend, Propagandhi,

some other veg*ns that i barely know, veganoutreach.org, and random

web[masters/mistresses] that chose to write about it on the internet).

i find it interesting that so many people noted that the female of

most heterosexual couples is usually the one to advocate veg*nism.

From what i have seen, it seems to be a truism. i guess a lot of

guys are too consumed with being " macho " to care about animal rights.

But not me! i'm proud to be a sissy-boy! i don't think i know any

other male veg*ns (except for this one guy that i suspect because of

his pacifism and canvas shoes) actually, so this seems to be a

significant oddity. Hmm...

But these are my views and renegade thoughts and this is my limited

experience pertaining to the topic at foot. Good luck to anyone in

this, or any similar, situation! And good luck to everyone for that

matter, since problems usually seem to be rampant in any good

person's life! Yes -- good luck. And good night (or day maybe).

(hopefully) your friend,

- casey / doctor colossus

July 19, 2000

Right on Casey!

Deborah