Guest guest Posted July 2, 2000 Report Share Posted July 2, 2000 I'd have to say I find Patrick and Anna's views to be consistent. I work in the service industry right now, and have been a server, cashier, etc, and it never ceases to amaze me how humans like to scam businesses, outright lie to get somthing for free (never thinking that maybe I'd could get fired), and act completely unreasonable bc they have to wait an extra minute or conform to some simple rule. However, that is probably a common intra-species phenomemnon. For example, I live with five cats, and those at the bottom of the hierarchy probably think that non-feline animals are nicer than cats. Someone brought up the idea of choosing btwn a dog and a human, and maybe it would depend if it were a nice human and a mean dog or vice versa! One could argue that a mean dog has no control over his meaness, but I dont think it would be a stretch to say that most mean humans aren't deep down happy to be mean or know how they really got that way. What if the dog is old and the human has its whole life ahead of it, or the human is 100 yrs old? Although I think we all need to expand our ring of compassion, I do acknowledge that a tendancy for beings to feel more compassion for things closer and more similar to themself is probably an innate thing to some degree. For example, it is easier to feel more for relatives and friends than we do about those in some other country. If we really allowed ourselves to feel equally for all beings, we'd go crazy. We'd either have to have the same grief for a stranger in a car crash as we would for our mother, or we'd have to lessen the degree to which we cared about our mother. But once again, one opening one's heart beyond one's inclinations and social upbringing as well as changing one's lifestyle for ALL/MORE beings can be done. In the end, all things are connected, and when there is more balance, everything benefits. So if I chose the human in a burning house over the dog, I would feel very bad for the dog, but it would be bc he died, not because I chose the human instead. I dont think there is any way to say which is 'better'. Plus, we are a social species with rules, and I think most people would be surprsed how strongly they influence individuals (ie the Milgram study). Sorry if this offends anyone, I'm just trying to be honest about it. I think in an emergency situation, one wouldn't have the mental capacity to ruminate over the decision, and therfore the decision should not be looked into for any philosophical meaning, nor be morally judged. I will close by reiterating, that yes, humans can really suck, there is room for a lot of improvement in how we treat and respect animals as well as many humans, but in the end, I like to look for the inner good in every being, and it warms my heart that there are other people out there who care even when it seems as if other people don't. Thanks you for listening to MHO, G , " Patrick Keller " <patrickkeller@h...> wrote: > Of course, I have met exceptions. But > >they are just that, exceptions and not the rule. As a whole, I find the > >human race brutal and vicious. I don't expect anyone to support me in that > >opinion, I was just voicing my honest thoughts. > > As a whole, we ARE brutal and vicious, but so are most omnivorous (high on > food chain) animals in thier " natural " habitat. As I've said b4, I grew up > with LOTS of animals on a farm - 40 or so cats, 10 or so dogs, cattle, > rabbits, enough birds for another Hitchcock film - and trust me, animals are > more than capable of weilding acts of cruelty and viciousness upon each > other (and even upon humans, I've found that not all animals are crazy about > the idea of domestication, who would have thought? all of the cats were > " wild " and did as they pleased without much human interaction, they were the > most vicious of all) - I love being in the company of affectionate animals > (especially dogs), but the vast majority of animals on this planet are not > " pets " , and do not enjoy being with humans at that much at all. With the > amount of work it takes to " tame " an animal that is not receptive to humans, > I'm sure you could also soften up most of the tough cookies in our own > soiciety. What if you were trapped in a room with someone you didn't like? > and they just talked soft affectionate jibberish to you all day while > offering you treats? Wouldn't you eventually warm up to them? I know this > last point is really silly, but think about if for a second. . . . aren't > most people better at immediate and completely open affection towards > non-human animals, than they are toward each other? Most people feel quite > alright touching, petting, and talking affectionately to a dog they just saw > on the street, wilst a human stranger would probably never get more than a > smile, a hello, and maybe some light conversation. It's much more complex > than this for sure, but there's got to be something to it. > > I'd like for us humans, as a whole, to gradually become less brutal and > vicious. That is why I support a diet as cruelty free as possible, and hope > that veganism becomes a global epidemic in the coming years. > > well, > > I gotta go, > > thanks to all for the interesting conversation, > > pk > > > >-Annie > > > > > > > " Patrick Keller " <patrickkeller@h...> > > > > > > > > >RE: Re: BELIEFS BEING CHALLANGED *exhausting* > > >Wed, 28 Jun 2000 19:48:29 PDT > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >Well, you wanted my twist on things, so here goes: > > > > > > > >I do favor the welfare of animals over people. No non-human animal > >ever > > > >insulted me, emotionally abused me, or raped me. The non- human animals > > >in > > > >my life love me, are there for me, and think I'm special. They listen > >to > > > >what I say without passing judgment. They are my best friends. I > >can't > > > >say > > > >all this about any human in my life. The non-human animals are > >superior > > >to > > > >humans in every way. > > > > > > > >I realize this is not a convincing argument for most people. But it's > > > >truly > > > >how I feel. Besides, when you say something like this, people think > > > >you're > > > >insane and possibly dangerous. Which at least gets them out of your > > >face. > > > >I shouldn't have to justify my eating habits or attire to anyone. > > > > > > > >-Annie > > > > > >I am at loss for words Annie, I find much to be concerned about in your > > >statement - please don't be insulted by what I am about to type, but I > >just > > >can't read something like this and let is pass by as " ok " . I find your > > >statement to be a bit of an insult to all the humans on this list, and > > >rather than snap back at you, I'm going to try and be maybe a little more > > >careful with my wording than I have been in the past - though, I tend to > > >type things as I would have said them in person, and without facial > > >expressions and other important nuances of delivery to accompany them, my > > >words tend to read rather harshly to those that don't know me well (the > > >embarassingly ill-worded opener to LeatherIsMurder being a great example > >of > > >this). > > > > > > I try to reserve terms like " superior " for things like stereo > >equipment > > >and computer software - I believe that they have no place in > >conversations > > >about living creatures. . . . I'm trying to remain light-hearted about > > >this, > > >and hope that maybe you were having a bad day. As it stands now, your > > >statements seems to come straight from the mouth of a self- loathing > > >comic-book villain. There is something funny in that for sure, but the > > >limited exposure to various schools of psychology that I have had would > > >lead > > >me to believe that you have experienced some rather serious > > >emotionally-traumatic experience(s) in your life. > > > > > >If this is the case, I am sorry to hear it. I myself and not the > >greatest > > > " people person " in the world - in fact, I'd say that people are the most > > >consistent source of dissapointment in my life. But I know I would be > > >miserable without the few friends (human friends) that I am lucky to > >have, > > >and I DO believe that that homo-sapiens are full of untapped potential. > >I > > >hope that I live long enough to see some real progress in that respect. I > > >even secretly hope that I can help with the process. If your not part of > > >the solution. . . . . . . . . > > > > > >( " solution " isn't a very healthy way to think about such things either, > >but > > >I'm sure some of you know what I'm getting at) > > > > > >well, > > > > > >maybe I've completely humilited myself infront of the whole group now - > > >this > > >may be the end for Patrick Keller on planetvegan, but I'm just not good > >at > > >keeping my mouth shut. . . . . > > > > > >take care all, > > > > > >pk > > > > > > > > ---------- > > > > > LeatherIsMurder [sMTP:minusthemeat@h...] > > > > > Reply > > > > > Tuesday, June 27, 2000 1:09 AM > > > > > > > > > > Re: BELIEFS BEING CHALLANGED *exhausting* > > > > > > > > > > , " Patrick Keller " > > > > > <patrickkeller@h...> wrote: > > > > > > LeatherIs. ... > > > > > > > > > > > > Might I suggest that both you and your friend brush up on your > > > > > debating > > > > > > skills, neither one of you makes a convincing argument towards > > > > > anything. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It never fails to astonish me how there is not one group of people > > > > > that you can feel comfortable saying whats on your mind without > > > > > someone trying to make you feel like an idiot. > > > > > > > > > > First of all. I did not post my responses as I did not want views on > > > > > my responses...I wanted views on hers. > > > > > > > > > > I already pointed out that I have not been a vegan for a very long > > > > > time and part of my " brushing up " is posting the arguments here and > > > > > getting some other views.... > > > > > > > > > > Yes I realize that most of the what she says can be argued back with > > > > > common sense arguments...but we all have our own little twist to > > > > > things and I am actually more interested in hearing what all of you > > > > > have to say with your own bits of information and ideas then I am > > > > > being pumped up to show her up. > > > > > > > > > > I really resent being insulted when I have done nothing to deserve > >it. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >-------------------------------- ------- > > > > > Accurate impartial advice on everything from laptops to table saws. > > > > > http://click./1/4634/6/_/651892/_/962117757/ > > > > > > > >-------------------------------- ------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Post message: > > > > > Subscribe: - > > > > > Un: - > > > > > List owner: -owner > > > > > > > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > > > > /community/ > > > > > > > > > > >___________________ ___ > > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > > > >___________________ ___ > >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > > > ____________________ __ > Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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