Guest guest Posted August 21, 2000 Report Share Posted August 21, 2000 Okay I know I've asked this before but I seem to have misplaced the websites that a few people recommended.... Does anyone know of a good site that explains in pretty good detail why plants do not have feelings? I've been searching the internet but haven't really found a good enough explanation that I think people who play the " plant card " will except. Thanks in advance for any suggestions! Suzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2000 Report Share Posted August 22, 2000 Here are a few... Plants feel too - Vegan Outreach http://www.veganoutreach.org/starterpack/qa.html#plantsfeel Absurdity of Plant Pain http://www.imsc.ernet.in/%7Etabish/animals/plantpain.html F.L.A.K.E. by Bill Harris MD http://www.vegsource.com/harris/flake.htm And no one can argue with this: " If we must inflict pain or starve, we would then have to choose the lesser evil. Presumably it would still be true that plants suffer less than animals, and therefore it would still be better to eat plants than to eat animals. Indeed this conclusion would follow even if plants were as sensitive as animals, since the innefficiency of meat production means that those who eat meat are responsible for the indirect destruction of at least ten times as many plants as are vegetarians! " Peter Singer (Animal Liberation) > Does anyone know of a good site that > explains in pretty good detail why plants do not have feelings? -- Free email services provided by http://www.goodkarmacafe.com Powered by Outblaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2000 Report Share Posted August 22, 2000 In a message dated 8/22/00 4:47:08 PM Eastern Daylight Time, actionagency writes: << Show them > that they must be either chiding you or they've really run out of arguments > if trying to make a case based on things that they don't believe in. >> I completely agree with this statement..if someone who eats meat turns around and says they are concerned about the feelings of plants they are full of it. Just my 2 cents. Shell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2000 Report Share Posted August 22, 2000 I'm not sure what I'd say if a fruitarian brought that up as a pursuasion to not kill plants. I've never met an ethical fruitarian, does anyone know one? Raw foodists I've met, but that's about their own health. Anyway, that's all moot. You're talking about meat eaters who are either deliberatly trying to frustrate you, or are insanely wrapped up in self-righteous rhetoric (in my blanket generalizing opinion). There are two non-scientific argumenative points that you might consider before getting into the realm of proof of existance or non-existance of feelings in plants. Let's remember that proving that something does not exist is much harder than proving that something does exist, and we're talking about people who refuse to accept that animals have feelings despite the obvious. They're demanding definitive emperical evidence despite *overwhelming* suggestive findings (think of dolphins and primates first). Let's remember that it was only a few years ago that IBM research *proved* that matter is made of atoms. For a hundred years before that, we were able to deftly manipulate our reality with the atomic chemical model. That is to say that even without absolute proof that atoms existed, we knew that they are there and what they are like because of observation, inference and repeatability. To refuse to believe that animals have feelings is like refusing to believe that matter is made of atoms. If you think that's ridiculous, consider that it was just last year that Galileo was finally absolved of heresy for suggesting that the earth revolves around the Sun. My point is that demanding absolute scientific proof of such things allows people to get ridiculous really easily. 1) Ask the person if they REALLY believe that that plants have feelings like we do. If they say that they're just suggesting it for arguments sake (to poke a hole in your theory), then tell them that you're not intrested in having a serious discussion with them if they're going to introduce arguments that don't come from a reality that you can agree on. Show them that they must be either chiding you or they've really run out of arguments if trying to make a case based on things that they don't believe in. Maybe remind them that you really believe in the things that you are presenting, and that the integrity of your viewpoint does not depend on wild postulations on the fringe of rea 2) Conversely, If they say that they REALLY believe that plants have feelings and can suffer, you might present the following: Even if plants must suffer for me to live, why is it logical that I should then go and cause suffering to animals and a greater number of plants wantonly and without concern? Why would that fact absolve me of any responsibility? What is the logic behind that? What is the hypocrisy of trying to minimize suffering, even though we must cause it to survive? We don't want to suffer, so we should reduce suffering of others wherever we can. Suicide is not an acceptable option to me or you to reduce the suffering in the world, but by eating only plant based foods, not only do you reduce the suffering of animals, but you reduce the number of plants that are needed for your survival (by a factor of anywhere from 4 to 20 depending on what kind of plants and animals that you are comparing as food). We could give back a lot of farm land to nature if the world was vegan, and suffering that occurs in nature is not so much our responsibility. If I were a four legged " prey " animal, I'd rather live free in the wild and take my chances with the predators than live in a cage facing certain death and suffering. I hope you all find these perspectives worthwhile. peace, Anthony Wong - " Ferris, Suzy " <Suzy.Ferris Plants feelings > Okay I know I've asked this before but I seem to have misplaced the websites > that a few people recommended.... Does anyone know of a good site that > explains in pretty good detail why plants do not have feelings? I've been > searching the internet but haven't really found a good enough explanation > that I think people who play the " plant card " will except. > Thanks in advance for any suggestions! > Suzy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 22, 2000 Report Share Posted August 22, 2000 Hi All, I'm a vegan who feels guilty about not being a fruitarian. The concept of killing to eat just turns me off. I've done enough research on fruitarianism to know that nutritional needs can be met on that diet as easily as on a vegan diet. It's mostly a matter of education and habit. There are many foods we don't think of as " fruit " that are " no kill " foods, such as tomatoes, avocados, eggplants, cucumbers, beans, etc. If it can be picked off or picked up without killing the plant, then a fruitarian can eat it. There does seem to be an adjustment phase for the body that makes sticking to the fruitarian diet initially very difficult. Kind of like people continuing to eat chicken and/or seafood for a couple of years before they finally become vegetarian. Then there's often another lag before becoming vegan. Often after the body/mind/spirit have adjusted to being vegan, a person may feel a push towards raw foods. Next, it's fruitarian. And perhaps, even breatharian (although I don't consider this a " diet " ). I simply cannot accept that it is necessary to kill. If it was " alive " and then we caused it to " die " .. I feel that is fundamentally wrong.. and unnecessary. I greatly admire those that lead a " no harm " life that includes all life. I haven't made it yet, but I will make it. I know this is the right path for me (I'm feeling the push), it is just a matter of more education and developing new habits. Blessings to you all on your chosen paths, Sherry - " Anthony Wong " <anthony Tuesday, August 22, 2000 3:01 PM Re: Plants feelings > I'm not sure what I'd say if a fruitarian brought that up as a pursuasion to > not kill plants. I've never met an ethical fruitarian, does anyone know > one? Raw foodists I've met, but that's about their own health. Anyway, > that's all moot. You're talking about meat eaters who are either > deliberatly trying to frustrate you, or are insanely wrapped up in > self-righteous rhetoric (in my blanket generalizing opinion). > > There are two non-scientific argumenative points that you might consider > before getting into the realm of proof of existance or non-existance of > feelings in plants. Let's remember that proving that something does not > exist is much harder than proving that something does exist, and we're > talking about people who refuse to accept that animals have feelings despite > the obvious. They're demanding definitive emperical evidence despite > *overwhelming* suggestive findings (think of dolphins and primates first). > Let's remember that it was only a few years ago that IBM research *proved* > that matter is made of atoms. For a hundred years before that, we were able > to deftly manipulate our reality with the atomic chemical model. That is to > say that even without absolute proof that atoms existed, we knew that they > are there and what they are like because of observation, inference and > repeatability. To refuse to believe that animals have feelings is like > refusing to believe that matter is made of atoms. If you think that's > ridiculous, consider that it was just last year that Galileo was finally > absolved of heresy for suggesting that the earth revolves around the Sun. > My point is that demanding absolute scientific proof of such things allows > people to get ridiculous really easily. > > 1) Ask the person if they REALLY believe that that plants have feelings like > we do. If they say that they're just suggesting it for arguments sake (to > poke a hole in your theory), then tell them that you're not intrested in > having a serious discussion with them if they're going to introduce > arguments that don't come from a reality that you can agree on. Show them > that they must be either chiding you or they've really run out of arguments > if trying to make a case based on things that they don't believe in. Maybe > remind them that you really believe in the things that you are presenting, > and that the integrity of your viewpoint does not depend on wild > postulations on the fringe of rea > > 2) Conversely, If they say that they REALLY believe that plants have > feelings and can suffer, you might present the following: Even if plants > must suffer for me to live, why is it logical that I should then go and > cause suffering to animals and a greater number of plants wantonly and > without concern? Why would that fact absolve me of any responsibility? > What is the logic behind that? What is the hypocrisy of trying to minimize > suffering, even though we must cause it to survive? We don't want to > suffer, so we should reduce suffering of others wherever we can. Suicide is > not an acceptable option to me or you to reduce the suffering in the world, > but by eating only plant based foods, not only do you reduce the suffering > of animals, but you reduce the number of plants that are needed for your > survival (by a factor of anywhere from 4 to 20 depending on what kind of > plants and animals that you are comparing as food). We could give back a > lot of farm land to nature if the world was vegan, and suffering that occurs > in nature is not so much our responsibility. If I were a four legged " prey " > animal, I'd rather live free in the wild and take my chances with the > predators than live in a cage facing certain death and suffering. > > I hope you all find these perspectives worthwhile. > > > peace, > Anthony Wong > > > > - > " Ferris, Suzy " <Suzy.Ferris > Plants feelings > > > > Okay I know I've asked this before but I seem to have misplaced the > websites > > that a few people recommended.... Does anyone know of a good site that > > explains in pretty good detail why plants do not have feelings? I've been > > searching the internet but haven't really found a good enough explanation > > that I think people who play the " plant card " will except. > > Thanks in advance for any suggestions! > > Suzy > > > > > > > Post message: > Subscribe: - > Un: - > List owner: -owner > > Shortcut URL to this page: > /community/ > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.