Guest guest Posted December 3, 2000 Report Share Posted December 3, 2000 In a message dated 12/3/00 1:19:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, MJartisian writes: > I find the following statements by Dietrich and Barry to be very astute and > right on target and must add some comments. > Xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx > > > I do share > > Barry's interest with the psyche of such people, but perhaps we might view > > some of these people as simply lacking one specific attribute of the human > > mind, just as some people are born without certain senses (seeing, > hearing, > > etc.). Such people might simply be amused at the sight of someone else's > > suffering, and in that sense in fact resemble that cat playing with the > mouse. > > And in fact, that seems, to greater or lesser degrees, to be the case. I see a huge number of persons coexisting in the world. If we look to other human beings for examples and support in becoming ethical, we may not be supported as we had hoped. We might be rerouted -- erroneously. There are religions and spiritual communities which some folks seek for support in their existential, moral, and religious quest. All these communities and human examples are just that -- human beings. The wisdom of the ages that they share coaches them about the advisability of not blindly following the examples of others. We could rightfully be just as cautious in considering the individual example of any person or the collective example of any community. Yet we know -- from some psychological sophistication -- that each of these individuals is, as the phenomenologists say, " consciousness bodily, " but taking place in individual and only somewhat unique and personal ways, but with social implications, because every life is public, as is every personal action, even if we school one another to disregard certain actions as being someone else's " privacy. " I'm not sure that we can thoroughly understand the " psyche " or " phenomenology " of every (1) misguided or (2) emotionally or morally immature or (3) willfully malevolent or malicious person (sinner?), but our public condition obliges us who are searching our world, sensitive to the impacts of others, to comprehend at some level the pluralistic reality we share with all those others--to cultivate, at least for ourselves, and perhaps for a few others as well, sufficient insight to illuminate our paths and to steer our ships through the social and situational complexities we encounter constantly. But sometimes we dare to steer by " markers " that are evident to us. Some folks wish to guide themselves by social, political, religious, metaphysical, scientific, or academic beliefs. I doubt the wisdom or legitimacy of that, although I have long done that, or tried to do that, and I continue to try to use such information. Yet people are highly individual. Minds are targets for speakers, but speakers abound. What people think isn't always exactly " where they are, " and how could we know in advance how deep and profound a relation with one's behavior there is with their conversations, regular speeches they hear in school or faith community, conceptual agreements (longterm or tentative) with their communities of identity, and " representational interfaces " that we encounter in so many circumstances? We might think that we share some " objects of consciousness " with others, but yet feel betrayed by their less than optimal behaviors. " What does it all mean? " We're tempted to abandon those mental objects that we collectively encountered in this " broadcast culture " that homogenizes dissimilarities, or at least to thoroughly rethink them, perhaps in line with the Socratic maxim, " The unexamined life is not worth living. " Perhaps, as I think Bart Gruzalski would suggest, we may not need those mental objects, and surely they don't define the goodness as we had once figured they would, nor are lipservice to values and ideas necessarily constitutive of personal or social goodness, even though there may be communities who agree to think that way. (Lots of people really DO WANT to be good.) (I've lived for a long time doubting the potential for real community at significant depths, interpreting beliefs in community as individual beliefs which have functional interfaces. I had decades ago read Sadler's Love and Existence. Human beings may have emotional or even " religious " needs, but what evidence is there that these needs are being met, or even addressed, when communities gather for such purposes? " We may have had your doubts " was to me a shocker from another person, and it gave me a sense of realization that I wasn't alone in holding deep doubts about some common references, nor unique in the desire and commitment to think much more deeply about the way I had once thought. Surely it was a moment of interpersonal communication from a fellow thinker, which I had not expected. I had expected isolated subjects in a community -- or society -- of somewhat commonly synchronized representational impacts on sentients.) The overwhelming concern we have is around the issue of personally-executed violence towards other persons, who suffer because of it. Intentional, willful violence has been related to malice, and malice is a vice in most wisdom traditions, regardless of its victims. What people lack or what people have experienced is yet a matter for continuing study in the social sciences. I'd like to see some of the vegetarian movement's professional psychologists, sociologists, economists, anthropologists, linguists, philosophers (like Bart Gruzalski), religious scholars and disciples, and other social scientists address this topic with the breadth and depth of their disciplines. We all have opinions, and socialization, acculturation characterize all opinions. Few if any of us have been thoroughly empirical regarding our opinions. Hardly a soul in any community or locale is scientific about her or his social beliefs. Evaluations and interpersonal judgments have interpretive or " hermeneutical " background for us all, and not all of us " source " those " interpretive vehicles " carefully or from as respectable or meticulous sources as some others. IMO there are better ways to " start off " , and I don't credit the political left or right with being more consistently compassionate or humane. They may vote for candidates who are " better " or " worse " on some of these issues, but I'm not convinced that their attached social agendas have unilateral claims to bring us historically forward towards a more compassionate future. (We see folks from both perspectives running around in leather coats and gratuitous fur. That ought not to become an encouragement for uncommitted people to do the same wrongs that the others do. But we see " new ethnics " slowly becoming acculturated and not thinking critically about the process of socialization which is teaching them cruelty from the inside out. Yes, we SHOULD grieve, and surely the malevolence and wrongdoing are NOT causes for rejoicing and celebration, but thorough justification for grief, whether public or contained in our privacy. The future may lose some of the promise it once had, and some humanitarians may actually unleash more harm than good, since few of us can predict the outcomes of our beneficence, and it's always partial.) Immanuel Kant said that " there is nothing good but the good will " , but many of us have moved over towards the utilitarian side in calculating the actual harms and benefits which result to varying numbers of sentient beings, all sentients included. Surely there are few of us today who wish to look ONLY at individual intentionality, but surely, just as surely, individual intentionality is a vital component of what is done and how that is done, and its impacts are related to individual intentionality, both directly and inadvertently. We want to excuse and accept others, yet they may objectively lack the necessary component for our deeper acceptance, and that is a personal change from the inside out that has the reference points that we think we have clearly identified. Those references help to constitute what would be for us " authentic community. " However, for the majority of those seeking " authentic community " with others, the majority of others " aren't there " and " just don't get it " and " aren't even on the same page. " For ethically sensitive individuals who care about the harm deliberately done to others throughout the world -- but with different objects of violence in different cultures (for psychological reasons, to be sure) -- the problem endures. We can agree with Carol Adams, the psychoanalysts, and the Bible that the source of wrongdoing has some independence from the victimized objects, and we are discussing the psychology of victimization. I'm pretty sure today that most folks today know that they are discounting the moral implications of their systematic victimization of nonhumans or of some humans. However, human-centered ( " humanistic " ) religion doesn't seem to be able to tap the resources for understanding the significance of those who are not from our species, our form of life. Is that where we would LOOK for a " lack " , a deficiency, a deficit? Perhaps. But if we're seeking individual and wholesale societal transformation, we'll need to look respectfully and sensitively. We don't want to lose site of any realities which are essential to the longterm and inwardly-motivated commitment to and practice of nonviolence, nor do we wish to convert vegetarianism into a gratuitous " bellyfest " of sensuous self-indulgence, nor one's ethical mandates into detached spitefulness, like an armed sniper in an unnoticed tower on campus, analogous to the old poem: I wish I were a little English sparrow. I wish I were a little English sparrow. I'd climb upon the steeple And drop on all the people. I wish I were a little English sparrow. Let that NOT be the goal of our seeking a succinct explanation of human fallibility and waywardness, of the malice and overt hostilities that are so frequently " indulged " by our fellow humans. We believe that we " know " that, even though our appetitive bodies might cease to thrive tomorrow, the story of sentient life will continue, and with that continuing story all the moral imbroglios of the millennia about which moral theorists and " phenomenologists " have studied and anguished for nearly that long, perhaps since the birth of systematic observation and critical thinking. Maynard S. Clark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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