spoils of peace -- was: spoils of war

October 16, 2002

I have to face this a lot too.

I`ve not been following whatever this is about, but I get kicked off lists for

being " off-topic " all the time.

People are trained to sadly see things as all chopped up into neat different

sections, but life isn`t like that. Veganism needs to be holistic, just as

everything needs to be (socialism, or whatever) holistic, if it is to be valid

in a universe in which all things are interconnected and related.

As Aristotle said, " Man is a political animal " .

Your choice to buy Quorn instead of meat and soya instead of milk is a political

act.

Life cannot be treated as a collection of neatly divided packages like in a

supermarket.

Veganism, too, is richly intertwined with everything else: our life-view, our

values, our sensitivity, our POLITICS!

Just as hunting is a political issue and war is a political issue, so is

veganism.

So, if folk want to be off-topic, let them! It must be the ones doing the

censoring who have the problem here, not the contributors!

As Locke said, " Let`s throw in all our ideas for the debate. We`ll sort them out

as we go along. "

-

Josey

Sunday, October 27, 2002 8:04 AM

Re: spoils of peace -- was: spoils of war

wow, that was insanely insensitive... is it not enough to dismiss an

emotional and obviously heart-felt post as off topic, you have to add

insult to injury by passing it off flippantly as " stuff about

Israel " ? way to be " compassionate " ! Considering that apparently

vegan subjects are running dry (this is the first post since my rant

yesterday) would you rather accept ideas that may be of interest to

other humans w/ consciences, or talk about nothing until someone

comes up with another vegan topic? I hate to be the one always

making a stink, but have some decency. It is obvious that this is

something that is personally important to Debbie and close to her

heart. how would you like it if someone paraphrased your post in

another group as " [a lot of deleted stuff about Veganism] " and told

you it was off topic? Maybe I'm overreacting but this seems just

plain mean and insensitive!

Josey

, Gerry Morgan <gjm@p...> wrote:

> Debbie wrote:

> [a lot of deleted stuff about Israel]

>

> As Anji recently pointed out, this is a list about veganism. Let's

remain

> focused on the main topic of the list, interesting as international

> politics may be.

>

> Gerry

October 27, 2002

B " H

I realize that the people on this list are trying to be as

compassionate as they can be, and I realize that with the anti-Israel

and anti-Jewish sentiment that is contaminating this earth and this

country it is very difficult to know what is right and what is wrong,

but I find it very disheartening (and quite a bit scary from

a " person who was named after someone who died in the holocaust "

perspective) that Jewish life is so cheap. It seems so easy for

people to dismiss the murders that go on day after day in Israel, a

country about the size of NJ. Babies, young people (teenagers, young

marrieds, young couples), grandparents, families as a whole,

schoolchildren, etc. are targeted with no concern for who they are or

what sort of person they might be. We as Jews are fighting for our

survival -- not just the survival of our faith (which, for people who

are compassionate, if you only understood what our Torah and our

beliefs stand for, you'd realize we are basically the most peaceful

of people, but we do believe in protecting ourselves and our families

and our babies) but the survival of our people.

It's funny (that's ironic) that we are being accused consistently of

doing exactly what the accusers are doing to us (which, I might add,

we are NOT doing). Jews and the government of Israel protects the

religious places and icons and holy places of other faiths, including

Islam (and Christianity).

Members of the PA (Palestinian Authority) are not militants.

Militants take over the offices of college presidents. They are

terrorists. They kill for no reason (Israel has offered on several

occasions to give them what they SAY they want. What they REALLY want

is for us to be dead. Period.)

It freaks the heck out of me that people equate pacifism with what I

consider suicide. I am a pacifist. I don't believe in war. UNLESS

(and this is a huge unless) people begin a war with you and the only

way to stop them is to fight BACK. This is what Israel was trying to

do (though horribly inadequately due to world, particularly US,

pressures).

So, please. Look at a map. Look and see how big Israel is (or, should

I say how small Israel is?) when compared to the Arab countries that

surround them. The Palestinians are refuges denied admission to these

countries for the sole purpose of destroying Israel and killing the

Jews. If you doubt this, please, explain to me why the Arabs only

began to " care " about them when Israel, after winning a war that was

thrust upon them in 1967 (like the previous wars of 1948 and 1956 and

other future military actions), took these lands. When they were

under Jordanian control, no one cared about them.

Debbie

not to beat a dead horse or anything, so to speak (i say that a lot,

and it always feels weird saying it to other vegans), but i see posts

about police brutality, chicano youths/palestine, etc. I think

these, and anti-war subjects are likely to be relevant to vegans,

depending on what each individual's reasons for being vegan are. If

it is a matter of health, then maybe it wouldn't be so relevant, but

it seems more common that it is a matter of compassion. If we show

compassion towards animals, and espouse non-violence by way of our

lifestyle, it seems it would follow that we would show compassion for

our fellow humans as well, after all, humans are animals, and animal

issues, i think, should also encompass human issues (but not eclipse

them). I have an " animal liberation/human liberation " button that I

wear,which is basically a visual protrayal of my point here. I think

that animal rights and human rights are very closely related (as

closely as we are to our animal brethren, for that matter)and to

focus exclusively on either without the other is missing something.

There's also the argument of veganism/vegetarianism making the world

a better place for all beings, by reducing the use of fossil fuels

(there's a tie to war in the middle-east right there), reducing the

amount of land used to grow food for livestock and growing it for

humans instead, alleviating this hunger problem we have, these

are " human issues " that are intimately tied to our movement. This is

just my take on it, I wont speak for anyone else. I like the

slogan " non-violence begins at dinner " , i think it complements this

post well. Veganism, for many, is an expression of non-violence, of

going the extra mile to alleviate suffering. War is the antithesis

of this ideal. War is suffering. I do understand not wanting to get

too off-topic, and i also understand the moderator's feelings take

precedence in their own group (and grudgingly accept this fact,

against my anarchist sensibilities), so with your say so, I will

refrain from " off-topic " posts in the future, if you still deem anti-

war posts to be so, but I personally think the mass slaughter of

innocent humans is more akin to the mass slaughter of innocent

animals than most people want to think about, which is not to

downplay the importance of either group (i hope that's obvious).

Also, I'm sorry to the mod if I come on too strong on this point or

sound rude, I get loud when I'm passionate about something :-P, and I

would like to thank you for being polite in your reminder. I think

we're all good people in this group, even if we don't always agree

with each other.

October 27, 2002

Debbie wrote:

[a lot of deleted stuff about Israel]

As Anji recently pointed out, this is a list about veganism. Let's remain

focused on the main topic of the list, interesting as international

politics may be.

Gerry

October 27, 2002