Guest guest Posted April 20, 2002 Report Share Posted April 20, 2002 No they are simply grateful for the handful of acorns that they are cast once a day.... , Joel Cartwright <joel@f...> wrote: > To any parents on the list: > > Have your children ever had tantrums when you've told them they can't > have some food that isn't vegan? Or do you not need to tell them? I'm > curious about what it's like bringing up vegan kids. > > Joel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 20, 2002 Report Share Posted April 20, 2002 Mine never had tantrums over diet . They knew as they were growing up that we were a kind family which didn’t kill and eat helpless animals which did not want to die .Kids understand this easily. The problem is when they make mistakes eg take sweets from friends (gelatine or cows milk chocolate ) But one should not go over the top but simply explain why we don’t eat it (baby calf taken away from its mother and mother and calf being really upset as the child would be if taken from its mum) facts. Kids feel empathy but the facts must be explained to suit the childs understanding throughout its growing up .They might get bullied by other kids----- that is a greater concern. But that will just confirm that not only are animal eaters cruel to farm animals they are also cruel to people ,and not worth bothering about Vegan kids should not be wimps !!!! -----Original Message----- Joel Cartwright [joel] 20 April 2002 16:45 Vegan kids To any parents on the list: Have your children ever had tantrums when you've told them they can't have some food that isn't vegan? Or do you not need to tell them? I'm curious about what it's like bringing up vegan kids. Joel. ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard. --------------------------- Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> Un: send a blank message to - Your use of is subject to the Terms of Service. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 16, 2005 Report Share Posted January 16, 2005 Dear Suha, Thanks for your feedback. Re. children growing up around carnivores, my kids are too young for me to judge whether this will be a problem, although I suspect it won't be. I know of two vegetarian children (boy & girl) who went veg young or who were raised that way. They haven't had any problems being vegetarian. In the girl's case, she went vegetarian when she was 3 after watching the movie 'Babe' (no wonder the Irish banned it to protect their pork producers!), and all her family eats meat. She is now about 13, and the last I heard of her she is still proudly an ethical vegetarian. Her family accepts this and ensures she is catered for, whether at home or, for example, on school camp. Recently my daughter Alex was invited to her first McDonald's birthday party (shock, horror!). Luckily, recently in Australia McDonald's introduced a vegeburger supplied by health food company Sanitarium (a vegetarian Seventh Day Adventist organisation, similar to Loma Linda in the States). Alex had some vegeburger and chips (fries) (cooked in veg oil), and the McDonald's biscuits (cookies) were vegan (Aussies have a nasty habit of adding beef fat to most of their bikkies!). Alex enjoyed herself, and there were no problems. As much as I am not a fan of McDonald's and their ilk, I think it's fantastic they now see a market for veg foods and provide an alternative for kids and others. It is certainly a lot easier in Australia (although much better in the US and UK!) to be vegetarian/vegan than when I went veg 23 years (vegan 22 years) ago. I think as long as you don't make a big deal out of what your child eats, and provide them with culturally acceptable alternatives such as veggie burgers, pizza, hot dogs etc I don't think other kids will make an issue out of it. I can imagine Daniel or Alex in the future as teens going to 'Maccas' or Hungry Jacks (like Burger King, who also now have a veggie burger in Aus) with their mates and simply ordering their own type of burger (or whatever the rubbish is!) and it not even being noticed. It is true that some kids (and adults) may make an issue out of their diet, but as long as children understand the reasons for their lifestyle and are comfortable with that, they should be fine. It is more problematic if one parent is vegan and the other vegetarian (or meat eater even). I think it's easier if the main care-giver (usually the woman) is the vegan one, as she is most likely to be well informed about child rearing and proper nutrition, and be in a postition to provide sound vegan meals. As with people who have religious differences, this needs to be negotiated. If you're vegan and your child isn't always fed 100% vegan, don't beat yourself up about it too much. If you have a good relationship with your child(ren) and explain the reasons to them for your diet/lifestyle, chances are they will be influenced by you, even if it is somewhere down the track. If either of my kids don't continue being vegan, or even vegetarian, naturally I will be disappointed. Bottom line is though, it is their choice. I was raised a strict Catholic (went to mass every Sunday, was an altar boy etc) and ate (and enjoyed) meat, but am now a vegan atheist (atheist since 16, vegan since 18 yrs). However, I was given no choice in my religious upbringing, and was certainly never encouraged to question it (nuns are not, in my experience, the most free-thinking of people!). I (and my wife) will always explain (appropriately) to our children why we are vegan, and try to answer any questions they may have. Even if you believe in God, surely we were given a brain to think for ourselves, and education is the key. Most kids are never told where their animal foods comes from, until, maybe, it is too late and they already are 'hooked' on it. Such is the level of misinformation that even well educated adults have been amazed -and a little incredulous- when I've told them some unpalatable truths, like that dairy cows are artificially inseminated regularly to keep getting pregnant in order to lactate, have their babies snatched from them at a very young age for veal or more dairy production, and are eventually killed for meat when their milk yield drops. I believe that if most kids were told the truth (not the whole, gory truth mind you!) from a young age, they wouldn't want to kill and eat animals. Alex already understands that animals have to be killed to eat them, and she is even more strict with her veganism than her parents are! Education, providing a good example (including good food!), and encouraging personal choice is the best way to go to inspire your children (or anyone) to eat no, or at least less, animal products. If you do these things, it is very unlikely your offspring will grow up to be hunters or butchers! Best wishes, Tom Perry Vegecentric www.vegecentric.com.au Email: tom - " Suha Sleibi " <tafraneh Saturday, January 15, 2005 2:11 PM Re: Vegan pregnancy > > Dear Tom, > > I have some questions I've been pondering for so long and i thought I'll share them with you and others. > Of course, raising vegan kids will involve explaining to them why this life style was chosen in first place. They will not have problems when they grow up among their vegan parents, but how do you think they will feel when they go to school and be among the majority of carnivorous children? > Also, what if one parent is vegan and the other is vegetarian? > Lastly, how will you feel and what will you do if your girls change their minds and decided not to be vegans/vegetarians anymore? > > Thanking you in advance, > > Suha > > > Thomas Perry <vegecentric wrote: > Hi Suha, > My wife and I have (so far!) successfully raised two young vegan children, > Alexandra (4) and Daniel (16mths), who are very healthy and in the top range > for height and weight. For articles by my wife about having and feeding Alex > from when she was born, you may be interested to go to the page on my > website about my newsletter, Club Veg > http://www.vegecentric.com.au/clubveg.htm and s to the > 'Having My Vegan Baby' articles. > > Club Veg will soon be available as a free online newsletter, so if you're > interested in subscribing, email me at clubveg > > Regards, > Tom Perry > Vegecentric > www.vegecentric.com.au > Email: tom > > - > " Suha Sleibi " <tafraneh > > Friday, January 14, 2005 10:17 AM > Re: Vegan pregnancy > > > > > > Hello David, > > > > Thank you so much! I knew it was feasible to raise healthy vegan > children... and since I'm new to veganism ( I've only been a vegan for > almost ten months or so and a vegetarian for three years), I still need some > education on it because I'm very passionate about this cause. > > > > Thank you again! I appreciate the info. you provided. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Suha > > > > David Sztybel <sztybeld wrote: > > Hi Suha, > > > > Good for you for being so honest about your eggs confession, and for > > shoring up your determination to be done with them! > > > > I have helped raise a little vegan who is now 6 years old. He never > > encountered any serious health problems and is growing beautifully. I > > understand that Dr. Michael Klaper wrote a book, called Pregnancy, > > Children, and the Vegan Diet. Please see also: > > > > www.vegetarianstarterkit.com/preg.html > > > > I hope you enjoy the blessings of vegan parenthood as much I have! > > > > David Sztybel, PhD > > > > > > > > > > Post message: > > Subscribe: - > > Un: - > > List owner: -owner > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > /community/ > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Dear Tom, Thank you SO much for your input. I have one small comment. When I was a kid, I forgot how old exactly I was, I witnessed a sheep getting slaughtered. It was the Muslims celebration of Eid Al Adha and by the way, this Eid is comming soon , but anyway, ever since I saw that sad scene, I could not eat red meat anymore. No matter how well cooked the meat was, I would still taste it as raw and felt like i wanted to spew. Although that was a gory scence, but it sadly woke up some feelings of compasion inside of me towards that animal. So, i would not mind, as a parant, exposing my kid to the abuse and violence animals endear so their dead body would end up on someone's plate. BTW, I'm sure you will like this 15 minutes speech by Jefferey Masson, the author of the pig who sang to the moon, the emotions of farm animals. Have a good day and thanx again for your input, Suha. If you have DSL/Cable connection, : http://www.vegsource.com/video/masson_hi.htm If you have dialup connection, : http://www.vegsource.com/video/masson_lo.htm Thomas Perry <vegecentric wrote: Dear Suha, Thanks for your feedback. Re. children growing up around carnivores, my kids are too young for me to judge whether this will be a problem, although I suspect it won't be. I know of two vegetarian children (boy & girl) who went veg young or who were raised that way. They haven't had any problems being vegetarian. In the girl's case, she went vegetarian when she was 3 after watching the movie 'Babe' (no wonder the Irish banned it to protect their pork producers!), and all her family eats meat. She is now about 13, and the last I heard of her she is still proudly an ethical vegetarian. Her family accepts this and ensures she is catered for, whether at home or, for example, on school camp. Recently my daughter Alex was invited to her first McDonald's birthday party (shock, horror!). Luckily, recently in Australia McDonald's introduced a vegeburger supplied by health food company Sanitarium (a vegetarian Seventh Day Adventist organisation, similar to Loma Linda in the States). Alex had some vegeburger and chips (fries) (cooked in veg oil), and the McDonald's biscuits (cookies) were vegan (Aussies have a nasty habit of adding beef fat to most of their bikkies!). Alex enjoyed herself, and there were no problems. As much as I am not a fan of McDonald's and their ilk, I think it's fantastic they now see a market for veg foods and provide an alternative for kids and others. It is certainly a lot easier in Australia (although much better in the US and UK!) to be vegetarian/vegan than when I went veg 23 years (vegan 22 years) ago. I think as long as you don't make a big deal out of what your child eats, and provide them with culturally acceptable alternatives such as veggie burgers, pizza, hot dogs etc I don't think other kids will make an issue out of it. I can imagine Daniel or Alex in the future as teens going to 'Maccas' or Hungry Jacks (like Burger King, who also now have a veggie burger in Aus) with their mates and simply ordering their own type of burger (or whatever the rubbish is!) and it not even being noticed. It is true that some kids (and adults) may make an issue out of their diet, but as long as children understand the reasons for their lifestyle and are comfortable with that, they should be fine. It is more problematic if one parent is vegan and the other vegetarian (or meat eater even). I think it's easier if the main care-giver (usually the woman) is the vegan one, as she is most likely to be well informed about child rearing and proper nutrition, and be in a postition to provide sound vegan meals. As with people who have religious differences, this needs to be negotiated. If you're vegan and your child isn't always fed 100% vegan, don't beat yourself up about it too much. If you have a good relationship with your child(ren) and explain the reasons to them for your diet/lifestyle, chances are they will be influenced by you, even if it is somewhere down the track. If either of my kids don't continue being vegan, or even vegetarian, naturally I will be disappointed. Bottom line is though, it is their choice. I was raised a strict Catholic (went to mass every Sunday, was an altar boy etc) and ate (and enjoyed) meat, but am now a vegan atheist (atheist since 16, vegan since 18 yrs). However, I was given no choice in my religious upbringing, and was certainly never encouraged to question it (nuns are not, in my experience, the most free-thinking of people!). I (and my wife) will always explain (appropriately) to our children why we are vegan, and try to answer any questions they may have. Even if you believe in God, surely we were given a brain to think for ourselves, and education is the key. Most kids are never told where their animal foods comes from, until, maybe, it is too late and they already are 'hooked' on it. Such is the level of misinformation that even well educated adults have been amazed -and a little incredulous- when I've told them some unpalatable truths, like that dairy cows are artificially inseminated regularly to keep getting pregnant in order to lactate, have their babies snatched from them at a very young age for veal or more dairy production, and are eventually killed for meat when their milk yield drops. I believe that if most kids were told the truth (not the whole, gory truth mind you!) from a young age, they wouldn't want to kill and eat animals. Alex already understands that animals have to be killed to eat them, and she is even more strict with her veganism than her parents are! Education, providing a good example (including good food!), and encouraging personal choice is the best way to go to inspire your children (or anyone) to eat no, or at least less, animal products. If you do these things, it is very unlikely your offspring will grow up to be hunters or butchers! Best wishes, Tom Perry Vegecentric www.vegecentric.com.au Email: tom - " Suha Sleibi " <tafraneh Saturday, January 15, 2005 2:11 PM Re: Vegan pregnancy > > Dear Tom, > > I have some questions I've been pondering for so long and i thought I'll share them with you and others. > Of course, raising vegan kids will involve explaining to them why this life style was chosen in first place. They will not have problems when they grow up among their vegan parents, but how do you think they will feel when they go to school and be among the majority of carnivorous children? > Also, what if one parent is vegan and the other is vegetarian? > Lastly, how will you feel and what will you do if your girls change their minds and decided not to be vegans/vegetarians anymore? > > Thanking you in advance, > > Suha > > > Thomas Perry <vegecentric wrote: > Hi Suha, > My wife and I have (so far!) successfully raised two young vegan children, > Alexandra (4) and Daniel (16mths), who are very healthy and in the top range > for height and weight. For articles by my wife about having and feeding Alex > from when she was born, you may be interested to go to the page on my > website about my newsletter, Club Veg > http://www.vegecentric.com.au/clubveg.htm and s to the > 'Having My Vegan Baby' articles. > > Club Veg will soon be available as a free online newsletter, so if you're > interested in subscribing, email me at clubveg > > Regards, > Tom Perry > Vegecentric > www.vegecentric.com.au > Email: tom > > - > " Suha Sleibi " <tafraneh > > Friday, January 14, 2005 10:17 AM > Re: Vegan pregnancy > > > > > > Hello David, > > > > Thank you so much! I knew it was feasible to raise healthy vegan > children... and since I'm new to veganism ( I've only been a vegan for > almost ten months or so and a vegetarian for three years), I still need some > education on it because I'm very passionate about this cause. > > > > Thank you again! I appreciate the info. you provided. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Suha > > > > David Sztybel <sztybeld wrote: > > Hi Suha, > > > > Good for you for being so honest about your eggs confession, and for > > shoring up your determination to be done with them! > > > > I have helped raise a little vegan who is now 6 years old. He never > > encountered any serious health problems and is growing beautifully. I > > understand that Dr. Michael Klaper wrote a book, called Pregnancy, > > Children, and the Vegan Diet. Please see also: > > > > www.vegetarianstarterkit.com/preg.html > > > > I hope you enjoy the blessings of vegan parenthood as much I have! > > > > David Sztybel, PhD > > > > > > > > > > Post message: > > Subscribe: - > > Un: - > > List owner: -owner > > > > Shortcut URL to this page: > > /community/ > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 17, 2005 Report Share Posted January 17, 2005 Hi Suha, I too, witnessed a sheep have its throat slit when I visited a sheep farm as a young boy. Interestingly, myself and my older brothers were encouraged to go and have a look, something I suspect wouldn't have happened if we were girls - boys are meant to get used to killing animals in the country from a young age. We also went 'spotlighting' -hunting at night- for rabbits with this particular farmer, who enjoyed blowing away the odd bunny. I imagine that if young children today were exposed to such 'entertainments' it would be seen as child abuse by most city dwellers, but in the country people are much more matter-of-fact about killing, particularly as their livelihood often depends on their ability to do so. I told you how we used to chop our chooks' (chickens') heads off and watch in horrifed fascination as their bloody headless carcases flopped around the back yard. To quote the last words of our most famous bushranger (outlaw) Ned Kelly, " such is life " ...and death, for that matter. I didn't turn vegetarian after witnessing such sights, as such a thing did not exist as far as we knew (I have two other vegan brothers), living in a small country town. Mind you, I probably would have been lynched by the local rednecks if I did dare to do such a thing, but luckily it never occurred to me back then! Thanks for the link, Tom Perry Vegecentric www.vegecentric.com.au Email: tom - " Suha Sleibi " <tafraneh Monday, January 17, 2005 11:38 AM Re: Vegan kids > > Dear Tom, > > Thank you SO much for your input. I have one small comment. When I was a > kid, I forgot how old exactly I was, I witnessed a sheep getting > slaughtered. It was the Muslims celebration of Eid Al Adha and by the > way, this Eid is comming soon , but anyway, ever since I saw that sad > scene, I could not eat red meat anymore. No matter how well cooked the > meat was, I would still taste it as raw and felt like i wanted to spew. > Although that was a gory scence, but it sadly woke up some feelings of > compasion inside of me towards that animal. So, i would not mind, as a > parant, exposing my kid to the abuse and violence animals endear so their > dead body would end up on someone's plate. > > BTW, I'm sure you will like this 15 minutes speech by Jefferey Masson, the > author of the pig who sang to the moon, the emotions of farm animals. > Have a good day and thanx again for your input, Suha. > > If you have DSL/Cable connection, : > http://www.vegsource.com/video/masson_hi.htm > > If you have dialup connection, : > http://www.vegsource.com/video/masson_lo.htm > > Thomas Perry <vegecentric wrote: > > Dear Suha, > Thanks for your feedback. Re. children growing up around carnivores, my > kids > are too young for me to judge whether this will be a problem, although I > suspect it won't be. I know of two vegetarian children (boy & girl) who > went > veg young or who were raised that way. They haven't had any problems being > vegetarian. In the girl's case, she went vegetarian when she was 3 after > watching the movie 'Babe' (no wonder the Irish banned it to protect their > pork producers!), and all her family eats meat. She is now about 13, and > the > last I heard of her she is still proudly an ethical vegetarian. Her family > accepts this and ensures she is catered for, whether at home or, for > example, on school camp. > > Recently my daughter Alex was invited to her first McDonald's birthday > party > (shock, horror!). Luckily, recently in Australia McDonald's introduced a > vegeburger supplied by health food company Sanitarium (a vegetarian > Seventh > Day Adventist organisation, similar to Loma Linda in the States). Alex had > some vegeburger and chips (fries) (cooked in veg oil), and the McDonald's > biscuits (cookies) were vegan (Aussies have a nasty habit of adding beef > fat > to most of their bikkies!). Alex enjoyed herself, and there were no > problems. As much as I am not a fan of McDonald's and their ilk, I think > it's fantastic they now see a market for veg foods and provide an > alternative for kids and others. It is certainly a lot easier in Australia > (although much better in the US and UK!) to be vegetarian/vegan than when > I > went veg 23 years (vegan 22 years) ago. > > I think as long as you don't make a big deal out of what your child eats, > and provide them with culturally acceptable alternatives such as veggie > burgers, pizza, hot dogs etc I don't think other kids will make an issue > out > of it. I can imagine Daniel or Alex in the future as teens going to > 'Maccas' > or Hungry Jacks (like Burger King, who also now have a veggie burger in > Aus) > with their mates and simply ordering their own type of burger (or whatever > the rubbish is!) and it not even being noticed. It is true that some kids > (and adults) may make an issue out of their diet, but as long as children > understand the reasons for their lifestyle and are comfortable with that, > they should be fine. > > It is more problematic if one parent is vegan and the other vegetarian (or > meat eater even). I think it's easier if the main care-giver (usually the > woman) is the vegan one, as she is most likely to be well informed about > child rearing and proper nutrition, and be in a postition to provide sound > vegan meals. As with people who have religious differences, this needs to > be > negotiated. If you're vegan and your child isn't always fed 100% vegan, > don't beat yourself up about it too much. If you have a good relationship > with your child(ren) and explain the reasons to them for your > diet/lifestyle, chances are they will be influenced by you, even if it is > somewhere down the track. > > If either of my kids don't continue being vegan, or even vegetarian, > naturally I will be disappointed. Bottom line is though, it is their > choice. > I was raised a strict Catholic (went to mass every Sunday, was an altar > boy > etc) and ate (and enjoyed) meat, but am now a vegan atheist (atheist since > 16, vegan since 18 yrs). However, I was given no choice in my religious > upbringing, and was certainly never encouraged to question it (nuns are > not, > in my experience, the most free-thinking of people!). I (and my wife) will > always explain (appropriately) to our children why we are vegan, and try > to > answer any questions they may have. Even if you believe in God, surely we > were given a brain to think for ourselves, and education is the key. Most > kids are never told where their animal foods comes from, until, maybe, it > is > too late and they already are 'hooked' on it. Such is the level of > misinformation that even well educated adults have been amazed -and a > little > incredulous- when I've told them some unpalatable truths, like that dairy > cows are artificially inseminated regularly to keep getting pregnant in > order to lactate, have their babies snatched from them at a very young age > for veal or more dairy production, and are eventually killed for meat when > their milk yield drops. > > I believe that if most kids were told the truth (not the whole, gory truth > mind you!) from a young age, they wouldn't want to kill and eat animals. > Alex already understands that animals have to be killed to eat them, and > she > is even more strict with her veganism than her parents are! Education, > providing a good example (including good food!), and encouraging personal > choice is the best way to go to inspire your children (or anyone) to eat > no, > or at least less, animal products. If you do these things, it is very > unlikely your offspring will grow up to be hunters or butchers! > > Best wishes, > > Tom Perry > Vegecentric > www.vegecentric.com.au > Email: tom > - > " Suha Sleibi " <tafraneh > > Saturday, January 15, 2005 2:11 PM > Re: Vegan pregnancy > > >> >> Dear Tom, >> >> I have some questions I've been pondering for so long and i thought I'll > share them with you and others. >> Of course, raising vegan kids will involve explaining to them why this > life style was chosen in first place. They will not have problems when > they > grow up among their vegan parents, but how do you think they will feel > when > they go to school and be among the majority of carnivorous children? >> Also, what if one parent is vegan and the other is vegetarian? >> Lastly, how will you feel and what will you do if your girls change their > minds and decided not to be vegans/vegetarians anymore? >> >> Thanking you in advance, >> >> Suha >> >> >> Thomas Perry <vegecentric wrote: >> Hi Suha, >> My wife and I have (so far!) successfully raised two young vegan >> children, >> Alexandra (4) and Daniel (16mths), who are very healthy and in the top > range >> for height and weight. For articles by my wife about having and feeding > Alex >> from when she was born, you may be interested to go to the page on my >> website about my newsletter, Club Veg >> http://www.vegecentric.com.au/clubveg.htm and s to the >> 'Having My Vegan Baby' articles. >> >> Club Veg will soon be available as a free online newsletter, so if you're >> interested in subscribing, email me at clubveg >> >> Regards, >> Tom Perry >> Vegecentric >> www.vegecentric.com.au >> Email: tom >> >> - >> " Suha Sleibi " <tafraneh >> >> Friday, January 14, 2005 10:17 AM >> Re: Vegan pregnancy >> >> >> > >> > Hello David, >> > >> > Thank you so much! I knew it was feasible to raise healthy vegan >> children... and since I'm new to veganism ( I've only been a vegan for >> almost ten months or so and a vegetarian for three years), I still need > some >> education on it because I'm very passionate about this cause. >> > >> > Thank you again! I appreciate the info. you provided. >> > >> > Sincerely, >> > >> > Suha >> > >> > David Sztybel <sztybeld wrote: >> > Hi Suha, >> > >> > Good for you for being so honest about your eggs confession, and for >> > shoring up your determination to be done with them! >> > >> > I have helped raise a little vegan who is now 6 years old. He never >> > encountered any serious health problems and is growing beautifully. I >> > understand that Dr. Michael Klaper wrote a book, called Pregnancy, >> > Children, and the Vegan Diet. Please see also: >> > >> > www.vegetarianstarterkit.com/preg.html >> > >> > I hope you enjoy the blessings of vegan parenthood as much I have! >> > >> > David Sztybel, PhD >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Post message: >> > Subscribe: - >> > Un: - >> > List owner: -owner >> > >> > Shortcut URL to this page: >> > /community/ >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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