This list, veganism, & honey (no recipes)

[Guest guest]

Hello,

---this list---

I read these messages online, and whilst the list is

called " " it says at the top of the page " A place to

exchange vegan and vegetarian recipes and links. This is not a list

on which to discuss animal abuse. "

 

Most of the recipes posted are vegan (and I think that's a good

thing), but that's not to say that the list is exclusively vegan. It

does suggest that we shouldn't be debating animal rights though, so

my apologies for adding to the debate on veganism & honey.

 

---veganism, choices and awareness---

I eat honey. I am not vegan, I'm a " fussy " vegetarian. I make my

choices based on my personal opinions, and everyone else is entitled

to do the same. The difficulties come when you start trying to

use " labels " - they mean different things to diferent people. This

is why some " vegetarians " eat (e.g.) fish, or chicken, or eggs, and

some don't. I think we should make our choices, and not worry so

much about what we call ourselves, or which " group " we belong to.

That's not to say that labels aren't good; sometimes it is useful to

describe myself as vegan for food-related purposes, because any food

that is vegan fits my personal criteria.

 

Veganism is a lifestyle choice and it is completely correct to only

say you're vegan if you have eliminated ALL animal products from

every aspect of your life, not just diet. That said, the reasons

people become " vegan " are diverse; a lifestyle is not a single

choice, it is a combination of many choices. I am not vegan,

because I evaluate each lifestyle choice on its own merits, and I

encompass a wider persective than only animal rights.

 

For many people becoming vegan is a gradual process, it often starts

with food, and then extends into other aspects of life. Partly this

is because as people become more aware of an issue, they find out

more about it. For example; did you know that many wines and beers

are clarified using animal products (fish bones, gelatin, eggs, and a

whole host of other things)? If you're vegan, but didn't know this,

it shouldn't mean that you're told " Pretender! You are not vegan! " ,

it should (in my opinion) mean that you can re-assess your choice

based on this new information. The same applies to honey.

 

Every piece of information you read is biased to some extent, the

trick is to recognise how and to filter it appropriately.

 

---honey & bees---

If you are concerned about how the honey you eat is made, I

thoroughly recommend buying it from a local source & checking whether

they fit your expectations.

 

This morning, I spoke to a lovely lady who makes the honey I eat

(it's locally produced; Denholme Gate Apiary, in Bradford,

Yorkshire). We had a very interesting chat about how they make the

honey, where the nectar comes from, and how they treat their bees.

My conclusion was that they are very careful with their bees;

* They don't kill them off over winter (although the queen lays fewer

eggs, and many of them die naturally),

* They leave them with honey in the hives (not sugar water),

* They don't get a new queen every year and artificially inseminate

her (that sounds like a tricky business), the queens live 3-5 years.

* They do transport some of them around the country; they are moved

seasonally so as to be near flowers for much of the year. In some

cases, the hives are placed near certain types of flowers to produce

a certain type of honey.

* They don't kill them all when removing honey from the combs, (but

I'm sure that it's inevitable that some die or are injured).

Apparently this has been standard practice in the past, but it is now

rarely used.

* They have been keeping bees for 25 years, and can distinguish the

different moods of their bees from the pitch of buzzing in the hives.

 

My personal evaluation of the things she told me and her attitude

means that I am happy to continue eating the honey from this

supplier.

 

Apologies again for the not-recipe-related content of this. I will

try to avoid this in future.

 

Naomi

[Guest guest]

I agree!

[Guest guest]

I guess that the reason a lot of people (including myself) get upset about

the " labels " being bent every which way is that when you go to someone's

house or to a restaurant for dinner, and they give you food they feel is

vegetarian or vegan, but include fish/poultry/whatever,usually in a form

not visible to your eye, such as in a broth, etc...it really causes

problems. It would be much easier if everyone would just stick to a set

of definitions for these purposes. I'm not concerned about a label for

myself so much as I am concerned that that label can honestly and clearly

be applied to foods/recipes that I am being served by

friends/family/restaurants...

 

 

 

 

 

 

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, naomi_kv wrote:

 

> Hello,

> ---this list---

> I read these messages online, and whilst the list is

> called " " it says at the top of the page " A place to

> exchange vegan and vegetarian recipes and links. This is not a list

> on which to discuss animal abuse. "

>

> Most of the recipes posted are vegan (and I think that's a good

> thing), but that's not to say that the list is exclusively vegan. It

> does suggest that we shouldn't be debating animal rights though, so

> my apologies for adding to the debate on veganism & honey.

>

> ---veganism, choices and awareness---

> I eat honey. I am not vegan, I'm a " fussy " vegetarian. I make my

> choices based on my personal opinions, and everyone else is entitled

> to do the same. The difficulties come when you start trying to

> use " labels " - they mean different things to diferent people. This

> is why some " vegetarians " eat (e.g.) fish, or chicken, or eggs, and

> some don't. I think we should make our choices, and not worry so

> much about what we call ourselves, or which " group " we belong to.

> That's not to say that labels aren't good; sometimes it is useful to

> describe myself as vegan for food-related purposes, because any food

> that is vegan fits my personal criteria.

>

> Veganism is a lifestyle choice and it is completely correct to only

> say you're vegan if you have eliminated ALL animal products from

> every aspect of your life, not just diet. That said, the reasons

> people become " vegan " are diverse; a lifestyle is not a single

> choice, it is a combination of many choices. I am not vegan,

> because I evaluate each lifestyle choice on its own merits, and I

> encompass a wider persective than only animal rights.

>

> For many people becoming vegan is a gradual process, it often starts

> with food, and then extends into other aspects of life. Partly this

> is because as people become more aware of an issue, they find out

> more about it. For example; did you know that many wines and beers

> are clarified using animal products (fish bones, gelatin, eggs, and a

> whole host of other things)? If you're vegan, but didn't know this,

> it shouldn't mean that you're told " Pretender! You are not vegan! " ,

> it should (in my opinion) mean that you can re-assess your choice

> based on this new information. The same applies to honey.

>

> Every piece of information you read is biased to some extent, the

> trick is to recognise how and to filter it appropriately.

>

> ---honey & bees---

> If you are concerned about how the honey you eat is made, I

> thoroughly recommend buying it from a local source & checking whether

> they fit your expectations.

>

> This morning, I spoke to a lovely lady who makes the honey I eat

> (it's locally produced; Denholme Gate Apiary, in Bradford,

> Yorkshire). We had a very interesting chat about how they make the

> honey, where the nectar comes from, and how they treat their bees.

> My conclusion was that they are very careful with their bees;

> * They don't kill them off over winter (although the queen lays fewer

> eggs, and many of them die naturally),

> * They leave them with honey in the hives (not sugar water),

> * They don't get a new queen every year and artificially inseminate

> her (that sounds like a tricky business), the queens live 3-5 years.

> * They do transport some of them around the country; they are moved

> seasonally so as to be near flowers for much of the year. In some

> cases, the hives are placed near certain types of flowers to produce

> a certain type of honey.

> * They don't kill them all when removing honey from the combs, (but

> I'm sure that it's inevitable that some die or are injured).

> Apparently this has been standard practice in the past, but it is now

> rarely used.

> * They have been keeping bees for 25 years, and can distinguish the

> different moods of their bees from the pitch of buzzing in the hives.

>

> My personal evaluation of the things she told me and her attitude

> means that I am happy to continue eating the honey from this

> supplier.

>

> Apologies again for the not-recipe-related content of this. I will

> try to avoid this in future.

>

> Naomi

 

[Guest guest]

I hope that you didn't mean to infer that someone who lives with an animal

rights perspective is narrow minded...

 

 

On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, naomi_kv wrote:

 

> because I evaluate each lifestyle choice on its own merits, and I

> encompass a wider persective than only animal rights.

[Guest guest]

My husband was in the hospital last week .The hospital is owned by seventh day Adventists ,who as most of you know are vegetarians. My husband was very careful to let the staff know that he was a "strict vegetarian" in fact a "Vegan" .

EVERY single meal they brought contained animal products !!!!! We complained and complained and Explained till we were blue in the face..... yet at each meal the nutritionist would send up a plate with chicken broth , gelatin , beef

bullion , milk , etc. .

As if the stress of being hospitalized for vomiting blood were not enough ,every tray he received with it's hand written "strict vegetarianNO meat, ,eggs ,dairy or other animal by products " in the 'special diet ' section of the meal ticket that accompanies each tray , caused my husband stress and distress To compound the problem further ,only

1 of all of his nurses had any idea what a vegan was .... the patient who shared the room with my husband stated that he thought that "vegetarians ate chicken " . The entire thing would have been drolly funny if it weren't so fundamentally upsetting .

Imagine being very ill and vomiting blood for days , hospitalized and hungry . When your tray arrives you immediately check the card to be certain your dietary needs are being met ; Great , its a go- so off comes the tray lid and out wafts the strong odor of animal fat !!!!!!

We tried to be firm but friendly about it to the staff and on a positive note we did educate over a dozen people directly in regard to veganism and answered the "whys" as well - all were very respectful and most stated that they too"loved " animals ( we came to veganism by way of founding /running an animal sanctuary and when speaking to omnivores I start by telling them that 20 years ago I bred exotic animals and became increasingly aware of their fundamental "sameness" to humans and how that recognition changed the way i saw the world and why i quit breeding - this approach works well for us as most people who've ever had any sort of a companion animal instictively KNOW this is true) but the problem continued . as his condition improved and he was able to eat solid food i prepared his food at home and brought it in to him daily . The nutritionist clearly had no idea what contstites sound nutrition for vegans .Though she tried very hard once he was off a liquid diet and on regular food .

the meals were vegan for the last day but they certainly were not decent nutrition. the centerpiece of each meal was a HUGE fruit tray accompanied by a small side of green beans or carrots or peas and soymilk ......The definition of veganism IS very clear ; Vegans DO NOT eat animal products or by products and this includes honey .While many people adjust their diets to fit their needs and belief system (as they SHOULD ) , t here in America , the need for educating the populace is HUGE.

IMHO On the vegan recipes list the recipes posted should be vegan . Those who choose to cook using non vegan options can change them to suit their dietary habits . Many new vegans join lists like this in order to learn how to cook within the dietary guidelines of veganism and posting recipes that do not,is confusing and counterproductive . 3 years ago I joined my first such group and doing so opened my life to an entirely new way of living . I learned a great deal from my fellow listmembers and continue to do so because of this list .

Though i know several vegetarians my husband is the only other vegan I know ... vegan groups give me a feeling of being understood without all of the politicking necessary in the rest of my life regarding my dietary choices .

Teresa

PS My husband is home .the culprit causing him trouble was a tear in his esophagus .He's doing well .

the Drs said his over all health was "outstanding"

 

----- I guess that the reason a lot of people (including myself) get upset aboutthe "labels" being bent every which way is that when you go to someone'shouse or to a restaurant for dinner, and they give you food they feel isvegetarian or vegan, but include fish/poultry/whatever,usually in a formnot visible to your eye, such as in a broth, etc...it really causesproblems. It would be much easier if everyone would just stick to a setof definitions for these purposes. I'm not concerned about a label formyself so much as I am concerned that that label can honestly and clearlybe applied to foods/recipes that I am being served byfriends/family/restaurants... :)On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, naomi_kv wrote:> Hello, > ---this list---> I read these messages online, and whilst the list is > called "" it says at the top of the page "A place to > exchange vegan and vegetarian recipes and links. This is not a list > on which to discuss animal abuse." > Veganism is a lifestyle choice and it is completely correct to only > say you're vegan if you have eliminated ALL animal products from > every aspect of your life, not just diet.

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I know. there is a local mexican restaurant that has , in their vegetarian section of the menus, rice that is made with chicken stock. sometimes it baffles me that people don't realize that kind of thing still isn't vegetarian, let alone vegan. but, it happens all the time. people get so grossed out when i tell them what gelatin REALLY is!!!

-Angela

Shawna Marie Schwalenberg <shawnam wrote:

I guess that the reason a lot of people (including myself) get upset aboutthe "labels" being bent every which way is that when you go to someone'shouse or to a restaurant for dinner, and they give you food they feel isvegetarian or vegan, but include fish/poultry/whatever,usually in a formnot visible to your eye, such as in a broth, etc...it really causesproblems. It would be much easier if everyone would just stick to a setof definitions for these purposes. I'm not concerned about a label formyself so much as I am concerned that that label can honestly and clearlybe applied to foods/recipes that I am being served byfriends/family/restaurants... :)On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, naomi_kv wrote:> Hello, > ---this list---> I read these messages online, and whilst the list is > called

"" it says at the top of the page "A place to > exchange vegan and vegetarian recipes and links. This is not a list > on which to discuss animal abuse." > > Most of the recipes posted are vegan (and I think that's a good > thing), but that's not to say that the list is exclusively vegan. It > does suggest that we shouldn't be debating animal rights though, so > my apologies for adding to the debate on veganism & honey.> > ---veganism, choices and awareness---> I eat honey. I am not vegan, I'm a "fussy" vegetarian. I make my > choices based on my personal opinions, and everyone else is entitled > to do the same. The difficulties come when you start trying to > use "labels" - they mean different things to diferent people. This > is why some "vegetarians" eat (e.g.) fish, or chicken, or eggs, and > some don't. I think we

should make our choices, and not worry so > much about what we call ourselves, or which "group" we belong to. > That's not to say that labels aren't good; sometimes it is useful to > describe myself as vegan for food-related purposes, because any food > that is vegan fits my personal criteria. > > Veganism is a lifestyle choice and it is completely correct to only > say you're vegan if you have eliminated ALL animal products from > every aspect of your life, not just diet. That said, the reasons > people become "vegan" are diverse; a lifestyle is not a single > choice, it is a combination of many choices. I am not vegan, > because I evaluate each lifestyle choice on its own merits, and I > encompass a wider persective than only animal rights. > > For many people becoming vegan is a gradual process, it often starts > with food, and then extends into

other aspects of life. Partly this > is because as people become more aware of an issue, they find out > more about it. For example; did you know that many wines and beers > are clarified using animal products (fish bones, gelatin, eggs, and a > whole host of other things)? If you're vegan, but didn't know this, > it shouldn't mean that you're told "Pretender! You are not vegan!", > it should (in my opinion) mean that you can re-assess your choice > based on this new information. The same applies to honey.> > Every piece of information you read is biased to some extent, the > trick is to recognise how and to filter it appropriately.> > ---honey & bees---> If you are concerned about how the honey you eat is made, I > thoroughly recommend buying it from a local source & checking whether > they fit your expectations. > > This morning, I

spoke to a lovely lady who makes the honey I eat > (it's locally produced; Denholme Gate Apiary, in Bradford, > Yorkshire). We had a very interesting chat about how they make the > honey, where the nectar comes from, and how they treat their bees. > My conclusion was that they are very careful with their bees; > * They don't kill them off over winter (although the queen lays fewer > eggs, and many of them die naturally), > * They leave them with honey in the hives (not sugar water), > * They don't get a new queen every year and artificially inseminate > her (that sounds like a tricky business), the queens live 3-5 years. > * They do transport some of them around the country; they are moved > seasonally so as to be near flowers for much of the year. In some > cases, the hives are placed near certain types of flowers to produce > a certain type of honey. > * They

don't kill them all when removing honey from the combs, (but > I'm sure that it's inevitable that some die or are injured). > Apparently this has been standard practice in the past, but it is now > rarely used.> * They have been keeping bees for 25 years, and can distinguish the > different moods of their bees from the pitch of buzzing in the hives.> > My personal evaluation of the things she told me and her attitude > means that I am happy to continue eating the honey from this > supplier. > > Apologies again for the not-recipe-related content of this. I will > try to avoid this in future. > > Naomi> > > > > > >

[Guest guest]

Absolutely not!

I'm really sorry if anyone took offence to that, it was not my

intent. I was simply trying to say that I prioritise differently,

such that animal rights is not _always_ my first concern in making a

decision. It is an extremely strong concern, and I have complete

respect for people who do always put it as their first priority. I

was just trying to explain why I'm not " vegan " per se.

 

I do appreciate that it can be difficult at times for other people to

understand what constitutes acceptable veggie/vegan food, and I have

been offered food that " only has a bit of meat in it " . I think it's

a learning process for everyone. I guess we're lucky in the UK; it's

taken a while, but there is a lot more understanding of what

veggie/vegan is now than even 10 years ago. Hopefully in another 10

years, it'll be better still (yay! more vegan restaurants!)... :-)

 

Thanks for the lovely not-honey recipe posted too :-)

 

Naomi

 

 

, Shawna Marie Schwalenberg

<shawnam@c...> wrote:

>

>

> I hope that you didn't mean to infer that someone who lives with an

animal

> rights perspective is narrow minded...

>

>

> On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, naomi_kv wrote:

>

> > because I evaluate each lifestyle choice on its own merits, and I

> > encompass a wider persective than only animal rights.

[Guest guest]

I assumed that wasn't what you meant...just had to clarify I know what

you mean...one time my future mother in law gave my sister and I this

potato dish...and we asked what was in it because it was so good and she

was like, well " chicken broth " ...and when she saw our faces, she said

" well, it has mushroom broth it too! " It wasn't until a month later at

christmas when she gave me a a leather coat that she got the idea after we

had a talk!

 

 

On Thu, 20 Nov 2003, naomi_kv wrote:

 

> Absolutely not!

> I'm really sorry if anyone took offence to that, it was not my

> intent. I was simply trying to say that I prioritise differently,

> such that animal rights is not _always_ my first concern in making a

> decision. It is an extremely strong concern, and I have complete

> respect for people who do always put it as their first priority. I

> was just trying to explain why I'm not " vegan " per se.

>

> I do appreciate that it can be difficult at times for other people to

> understand what constitutes acceptable veggie/vegan food, and I have

> been offered food that " only has a bit of meat in it " . I think it's

> a learning process for everyone. I guess we're lucky in the UK; it's

> taken a while, but there is a lot more understanding of what

> veggie/vegan is now than even 10 years ago. Hopefully in another 10

> years, it'll be better still (yay! more vegan restaurants!)... :-)

>

> Thanks for the lovely not-honey recipe posted too :-)

>

> Naomi

>

>

> , Shawna Marie Schwalenberg

> <shawnam@c...> wrote:

> >

> >

> > I hope that you didn't mean to infer that someone who lives with an

> animal

> > rights perspective is narrow minded...

> >

> >

> > On Tue, 18 Nov 2003, naomi_kv wrote:

> >

> > > because I evaluate each lifestyle choice on its own merits, and I

> > > encompass a wider persective than only animal rights.

>

>

>

>

>

>