Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Lesley Ok, apologies, I know this message is from weeks ago, but only just got around to reading it (have been a bit busy, falling in love) - but just want to say that I take Edith seriously - I agree with what she says. In my opinion, your opinions are waaay too extreme Lesley and somebody definately needs to challenge them, and I reckon Edith does that very well, thank you very much. Joeann <Ediths number one fan> Lesley Dove <Lesley wrote: Like Angie says, we don't take Edith too seriously. Get personalised at My . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Well I will NOT apologise for being extremely in favour of respecting everyone's right to life, but not everyone's right to kill. I think vegans who kill their own offspring need to be challenged and from now on I shall not let it go unchallenged among vegan families. Most people would say we are too extreme as vegans, so how do you work out that I am extreme for extending that respect to the unborn? I don't see it as any more extreme than veganism itself. Lesley joeann cantillon [goosy_gander]27 March 2002 15:46 Subject: RE: Conflict of interests dilemma Lesley Ok, apologies, I know this message is from weeks ago, but only just got around to reading it (have been a bit busy, falling in love) - but just want to say that I take Edith seriously - I agree with what she says. In my opinion, your opinions are waaay too extreme Lesley and somebody definately needs to challenge them, and I reckon Edith does that very well, thank you very much. Joeann <Ediths number one fan> Lesley Dove <Lesley wrote: Like Angie says, we don't take Edith too seriously. Get personalised at My . ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 I don't think I'm being extreme in saying that in the case of being on the internet, you can either take everyone seriously or no-one at all seriously. Anything in between and you're being judgemental. , joeann cantillon <goosy_gander> wrote: > > Lesley > Ok, apologies, I know this message is from weeks ago, but only just got around to reading it (have been a bit busy, falling in love) - but just want to say that I take Edith seriously - I agree with what she says. In my opinion, your opinions are waaay too extreme Lesley and somebody definately needs to challenge them, and I reckon Edith does that very well, thank you very much. > Joeann > <Ediths number one fan> > Lesley Dove <Lesley@v...> wrote: Like Angie says, we don't take Edith too seriously. > > > > > Get personalised at My . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 ---I still can't fathon the standpoint of abortionist,{to polite s word}, anyway, I think it must be similiar to meat-eaters,war- excepters and so on, It has to be a kind of psychopathic reasoning in order to find it exceptable. Lesley seems to be one of the few that can see sense in regards to this subject on this list, SP, In , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > Well I will NOT apologise for being extremely in favour of respecting > everyone's right to life, but not everyone's right to kill. I think vegans > who kill their own offspring need to be challenged and from now on I shall > not let it go unchallenged among vegan families. Most people would say we > are too extreme as vegans, so how do you work out that I am extreme for > extending that respect to the unborn? I don't see it as any more extreme > than veganism itself. > > Lesley > > joeann cantillon [goosy_gander] > 27 March 2002 15:46 > > RE: Conflict of interests dilemma > > > Lesley > > Ok, apologies, I know this message is from weeks ago, but only just got > around to reading it (have been a bit busy, falling in love) - but just want > to say that I take Edith seriously - I agree with what she says. In my > opinion, your opinions are waaay too extreme Lesley and somebody definately > needs to challenge them, and I reckon Edith does that very well, thank you > very much. > > Joeann > > <Ediths number one fan> > > Lesley Dove <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > Like Angie says, we don't take Edith too seriously. > > > > > -- -------- > -- > > Get personalised at My . > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 There's nothing right or wrong about extremism. Speaking of which, does anyone know of any institutions that are vegan? I mean institutions such as the college I attend, where I seek " education " . Institutions where all the food is vegan, all the members of staff are vegan, and where everything possible has been done to avoid cruelty, oppression, inequality etc in the constitution of it? Like, right down to the very buildings that it is housed in? I'm only asking this because I was having a fag break with some pigeons just now. They were eating some scraps from off the floor, and I was standing among them smoking my roll-up. I felt like a pigeon, and was content for the duration of my cigarette. Then the guardsman of my college, who sometimes does his patrols, who checks ids and whatnot, walked past. He's a nice guy, black, gets on with most of the students here. He said, innocently enough, as a joke perhaps, " It'll be pigeon pie in the refectory tomorrow, know wadda mean? " in that dark, humorous way that I assume only black people can pull off (I'm not racist). I said, " what? " cause i hadn't heard him properly. He repeated what he'd said, he doesn't know I'm a vegan. I said, " euuurgh " , but didn't say anymore, for he'd already walked off on his rounds. No rights or wrongs, that was the scary bit. I am wondering whether I ought to leave this college. I'm at that point where I'm not scared, but should be. Looking back, I realise that I have been in this state for a long time, but now I think i know why. But where am I going to find education in a place that doesn't have the essence of death and torture pervading the air? Anyone? (Oh yeah, and I'm not studying poetry or storytelling, I study sciences: Mavreela, moderate me if you think this is unsuitable and shouldn't be allowed) , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > Well I will NOT apologise for being extremely in favour of respecting > everyone's right to life, but not everyone's right to kill. I think vegans > who kill their own offspring need to be challenged and from now on I shall > not let it go unchallenged among vegan families. Most people would say we > are too extreme as vegans, so how do you work out that I am extreme for > extending that respect to the unborn? I don't see it as any more extreme > than veganism itself. > > Lesley Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 > Speaking of which, does anyone know of any institutions that are > vegan? I mean institutions such as the college I attend, where I > seek " education " . Institutions where all the food is vegan, all the > members of staff are vegan, and where everything possible has been > done to avoid cruelty, oppression, inequality etc in the constitution > of it? Like, right down to the very buildings that it is housed in? there are some Jainist temples in India that might have some courses... but you have to wear just a bit of cloth and walk around slowly brushing insects from your path.... being a vegan at a vegan college sounds to me like being a monk in a monastery... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 I hope the person you have fallen in love with is vegan, or at least veggie! Lesley joeann cantillon [goosy_gander]27 March 2002 15:46 Subject: RE: Conflict of interests dilemma Lesley Ok, apologies, I know this message is from weeks ago, but only just got around to reading it (have been a bit busy, falling in love) - but just want to say that I take Edith seriously - I agree with what she says. In my opinion, your opinions are waaay too extreme Lesley and somebody definately needs to challenge them, and I reckon Edith does that very well, thank you very much. Joeann <Ediths number one fan> Lesley Dove <Lesley wrote: Like Angie says, we don't take Edith too seriously. Get personalised at My . ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard.---------------------------Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline>Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 The way I see the argument its not about abortionists, its about freedom of choice - and Lesley et. al. wants to deny women the freedom of choice. This is the 21st century, for some of us at least, and freedom of speech, choice etc. has been with us quite some time and denying anybody that hard-earned freedom is wrong. It is up to the individual then to deal with and live with their own conscience. You or I have no right to impose our beliefs and/or prejudices on anybody else - I have as much right to my life as anybody else and I will not tell anybody else how to live theirs. I believe that is what yourself and Lesley etc. are proposing - telling others how to live, and I'm sorry but I've got to disagree with that. So, again I reiterate, its not about abortion, its about the underlying fredoom to choose. Joeann vegicate1 <simonpjones wrote: ---I still can't fathon the standpoint of abortionist,{to polite s word}, anyway, I think it must be similiar to meat-eaters,war-excepters and so on, It has to be a kind of psychopathic reasoning in order to find it exceptable.Lesley seems to be one of the few that can see sense in regards to this subject on this list,SP,In , "Lesley Dove" wrote:> Well I will NOT apologise for being extremely in favour of respecting> everyone's right to life, but not everyone's right to kill. I think vegans> who kill their own offspring need to be challenged and from now on I shall> not let it go unchallenged among vegan families. Most people would say we> are too extreme as vegans, so how do you work out that I am extreme for> extending that respect to the unborn? I don't see it as any more extreme> than veganism itself.> > Lesley> > joeann cantillon [goosy_gander]> 27 March 2002 15:46> > RE: Conflict of interests dilemma> > > Lesley> > Ok, apologies, I know this message is from weeks ago, but only just got> around to reading it (have been a bit busy, falling in love) - but just want> to say that I take Edith seriously - I agree with what she says. In my> opinion, your opinions are waaay too extreme Lesley and somebody definately> needs to challenge them, and I reckon Edith does that very well, thank you> very much.> > Joeann> > > > Lesley Dove wrote:> > Like Angie says, we don't take Edith too seriously.> > > > > ----------> --> > Get personalised at My .> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 The issue is what/who deserves the right to live. What level of life has the right not to be killed by us? Do you believe that the unborn are lesser life forms than non-human animals, even though they are the same species as you? Freedom of speech is worlds apart from freedom to kill. You cannot seriously compare the two. You have no more or less right to your life than your own mother had, but she had the legal right to kill you if she had wanted to (depending on how old you are and whether abortion was legal at the time). It is definitely psychopathic reasoning to be defending the right to kill, you are a bit like an animal-eater who defends their right to choose what to eat, when in fact you are both defending the right to kill. Just remember exactly what you are defending the right to do here. Lesley joeann cantillon [goosy_gander]27 March 2002 22:23 Subject: Re: Re: Conflict of interests dilemma The way I see the argument its not about abortionists, its about freedom of choice - and Lesley et. al. wants to deny women the freedom of choice. This is the 21st century, for some of us at least, and freedom of speech, choice etc. has been with us quite some time and denying anybody that hard-earned freedom is wrong. It is up to the individual then to deal with and live with their own conscience. You or I have no right to impose our beliefs and/or prejudices on anybody else - I have as much right to my life as anybody else and I will not tell anybody else how to live theirs. I believe that is what yourself and Lesley etc. are proposing - telling others how to live, and I'm sorry but I've got to disagree with that. So, again I reiterate, its not about abortion, its about the underlying fredoom to choose. Joeann vegicate1 <simonpjones wrote: ---I still can't fathon the standpoint of abortionist,{to polite s word}, anyway, I think it must be similiar to meat-eaters,war-excepters and so on, It has to be a kind of psychopathic reasoning in order to find it exceptable.Lesley seems to be one of the few that can see sense in regards to this subject on this list,SP,In , "Lesley Dove" wrote:> Well I will NOT apologise for being extremely in favour of respecting> everyone's right to life, but not everyone's right to kill. I think vegans> who kill their own offspring need to be challenged and from now on I shall> not let it go unchallenged among vegan families. Most people would say we> are too extreme as vegans, so how do you work out that I am extreme for> extending that respect to the unborn? I don't see it as any more extreme> than veganism itself.> > Lesley> > joeann cantillon [goosy_gander]> 27 March 2002 15:46> > RE: Conflict of interests dilemma> > > Lesley> > Ok, apologies, I know this message is from weeks ago, but only just got> around to reading it (have been a bit busy, falling in love) - but just want> to say that I take Edith seriously - I agree with what she says. In my> opinion, your opinions are waaay too extreme Lesley and somebody definately> needs to challenge them, and I reckon Edith does that very well, thank you> very much.> > Joeann> > > > Lesley Dove wrote:> > Like Angie says, we don't take Edith too seriously.> > > > > ----------> --> > Get personalised at My .> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Its funny. I've been away for a fortnight I've come back to the abortion debate that was running long before I left (or the computer died on me more to the point!). Do vegans talk about anything else other than abortion. I sure hope so!!! Janey x - Lesley Dove Wednesday, March 27, 2002 10:39 PM RE: Re: Conflict of interests dilemma The issue is what/who deserves the right to live. What level of life has the right not to be killed by us? Do you believe that the unborn are lesser life forms than non-human animals, even though they are the same species as you? Freedom of speech is worlds apart from freedom to kill. You cannot seriously compare the two. You have no more or less right to your life than your own mother had, but she had the legal right to kill you if she had wanted to (depending on how old you are and whether abortion was legal at the time). It is definitely psychopathic reasoning to be defending the right to kill, you are a bit like an animal-eater who defends their right to choose what to eat, when in fact you are both defending the right to kill. Just remember exactly what you are defending the right to do here. Lesley joeann cantillon [goosy_gander]27 March 2002 22:23 Subject: Re: Re: Conflict of interests dilemma The way I see the argument its not about abortionists, its about freedom of choice - and Lesley et. al. wants to deny women the freedom of choice. This is the 21st century, for some of us at least, and freedom of speech, choice etc. has been with us quite some time and denying anybody that hard-earned freedom is wrong. It is up to the individual then to deal with and live with their own conscience. You or I have no right to impose our beliefs and/or prejudices on anybody else - I have as much right to my life as anybody else and I will not tell anybody else how to live theirs. I believe that is what yourself and Lesley etc. are proposing - telling others how to live, and I'm sorry but I've got to disagree with that. So, again I reiterate, its not about abortion, its about the underlying fredoom to choose. Joeann vegicate1 <simonpjones wrote: ---I still can't fathon the standpoint of abortionist,{to polite s word}, anyway, I think it must be similiar to meat-eaters,war-excepters and so on, It has to be a kind of psychopathic reasoning in order to find it exceptable.Lesley seems to be one of the few that can see sense in regards to this subject on this list,SP,In , "Lesley Dove" wrote:> Well I will NOT apologise for being extremely in favour of respecting> everyone's right to life, but not everyone's right to kill. I think vegans> who kill their own offspring need to be challenged and from now on I shall> not let it go unchallenged among vegan families. Most people would say we> are too extreme as vegans, so how do you work out that I am extreme for> extending that respect to the unborn? I don't see it as any more extreme> than veganism itself.> > Lesley> > joeann cantillon [goosy_gander]> 27 March 2002 15:46> > RE: Conflict of interests dilemma> > > Lesley> > Ok, apologies, I know this message is from weeks ago, but only just got> around to reading it (have been a bit busy, falling in love) - but just want> to say that I take Edith seriously - I agree with what she says. In my> opinion, your opinions are waaay too extreme Lesley and somebody definately> needs to challenge them, and I reckon Edith does that very well, thank you> very much.> > Joeann> > > > Lesley Dove wrote:> > Like Angie says, we don't take Edith too seriously.> > > > > ----------> --> > Get personalised at My .> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 I really feel for you, as someone who started nurse training and experienced a lot of anti-vegan discrimination, and ended up being bullied out. When we get our act together my whole story is going on our website, I know, manana, manana, sorry I don't know how to do the squiggly thing over the n! If anyone wants me to email the whole tale to them, let me know. I won't put it on this list as it's quite long. One example of what I had to cope with was that we had one nursing tutor who had a particular fondness for talking about animal experiments and what useful things these studies on animals had shown, in his opinion. I just kept quiet, because I felt certain that he was trying to goad me and I didn't want to cause a row. Every time he mentioned animal experiments, I could feel my face burning hot with the pent-up anger and humiliation that I was feeling, because I felt I was letting down the animals by not arguing with him, but I knew that he wanted to make me look bad and argumentative. I was determined that he would not succeed in this. I would have definitely stated my conscientious objection if the possibility of us dissecting had ever come up. I feared this sort of confrontation might come up, but fortunately it didn't. However, I was not especially secretive about my views, and I even tried hard to find other like-minded people working in the hospital. I felt very isolated most of the time as a vegan in a very vegan unfriendly area of the country. I was in North Wales and lots of my colleagues were married to, or daughters of, farmers and saw my veganism as a threat to their families' livelihood, so I suffered a lot of hatred for being into animal rights. I sought support from the Nurses Anti-Vivisection Movement against the discrimination and harassment, but they would do bugger all! Is there no veggie/AR student group where you are? Where are you? Lesley geouze [djules_75] 27 March 2002 17:27 Re: Conflict of interests dilemma There's nothing right or wrong about extremism. Speaking of which, does anyone know of any institutions that are vegan? I mean institutions such as the college I attend, where I seek " education " . Institutions where all the food is vegan, all the members of staff are vegan, and where everything possible has been done to avoid cruelty, oppression, inequality etc in the constitution of it? Like, right down to the very buildings that it is housed in? I'm only asking this because I was having a fag break with some pigeons just now. They were eating some scraps from off the floor, and I was standing among them smoking my roll-up. I felt like a pigeon, and was content for the duration of my cigarette. Then the guardsman of my college, who sometimes does his patrols, who checks ids and whatnot, walked past. He's a nice guy, black, gets on with most of the students here. He said, innocently enough, as a joke perhaps, " It'll be pigeon pie in the refectory tomorrow, know wadda mean? " in that dark, humorous way that I assume only black people can pull off (I'm not racist). I said, " what? " cause i hadn't heard him properly. He repeated what he'd said, he doesn't know I'm a vegan. I said, " euuurgh " , but didn't say anymore, for he'd already walked off on his rounds. No rights or wrongs, that was the scary bit. I am wondering whether I ought to leave this college. I'm at that point where I'm not scared, but should be. Looking back, I realise that I have been in this state for a long time, but now I think i know why. But where am I going to find education in a place that doesn't have the essence of death and torture pervading the air? Anyone? (Oh yeah, and I'm not studying poetry or storytelling, I study sciences: Mavreela, moderate me if you think this is unsuitable and shouldn't be allowed) , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > Well I will NOT apologise for being extremely in favour of respecting > everyone's right to life, but not everyone's right to kill. I think vegans > who kill their own offspring need to be challenged and from now on I shall > not let it go unchallenged among vegan families. Most people would say we > are too extreme as vegans, so how do you work out that I am extreme for > extending that respect to the unborn? I don't see it as any more extreme > than veganism itself. > > Lesley ~~ info ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Please remember that the above is only the opinion of the author, there may be another side to the story you have not heard. --------------------------- Was this message Off Topic? Did you know? Was it snipped? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Guidelines: visit <site temporarily offline> Un: send a blank message to - Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 27, 2002 Report Share Posted March 27, 2002 Yes we do, but I cannot understand such a glaring inconsistency in vegan thinking as to support abortion as a choice! Lesley Janey [janey]27 March 2002 22:48 Subject: Re: Re: Conflict of interests dilemma Its funny. I've been away for a fortnight I've come back to the abortion debate that was running long before I left (or the computer died on me more to the point!). Do vegans talk about anything else other than abortion. I sure hope so!!! Janey x - Lesley Dove Wednesday, March 27, 2002 10:39 PM RE: Re: Conflict of interests dilemma The issue is what/who deserves the right to live. What level of life has the right not to be killed by us? Do you believe that the unborn are lesser life forms than non-human animals, even though they are the same species as you? Freedom of speech is worlds apart from freedom to kill. You cannot seriously compare the two. You have no more or less right to your life than your own mother had, but she had the legal right to kill you if she had wanted to (depending on how old you are and whether abortion was legal at the time). It is definitely psychopathic reasoning to be defending the right to kill, you are a bit like an animal-eater who defends their right to choose what to eat, when in fact you are both defending the right to kill. Just remember exactly what you are defending the right to do here. Lesley joeann cantillon [goosy_gander]27 March 2002 22:23 Subject: Re: Re: Conflict of interests dilemma The way I see the argument its not about abortionists, its about freedom of choice - and Lesley et. al. wants to deny women the freedom of choice. This is the 21st century, for some of us at least, and freedom of speech, choice etc. has been with us quite some time and denying anybody that hard-earned freedom is wrong. It is up to the individual then to deal with and live with their own conscience. You or I have no right to impose our beliefs and/or prejudices on anybody else - I have as much right to my life as anybody else and I will not tell anybody else how to live theirs. I believe that is what yourself and Lesley etc. are proposing - telling others how to live, and I'm sorry but I've got to disagree with that. So, again I reiterate, its not about abortion, its about the underlying fredoom to choose. Joeann vegicate1 <simonpjones wrote: ---I still can't fathon the standpoint of abortionist,{to polite s word}, anyway, I think it must be similiar to meat-eaters,war-excepters and so on, It has to be a kind of psychopathic reasoning in order to find it exceptable.Lesley seems to be one of the few that can see sense in regards to this subject on this list,SP,In , "Lesley Dove" wrote:> Well I will NOT apologise for being extremely in favour of respecting> everyone's right to life, but not everyone's right to kill. I think vegans> who kill their own offspring need to be challenged and from now on I shall> not let it go unchallenged among vegan families. Most people would say we> are too extreme as vegans, so how do you work out that I am extreme for> extending that respect to the unborn? I don't see it as any more extreme> than veganism itself.> > Lesley> > joeann cantillon [goosy_gander]> 27 March 2002 15:46> > RE: Conflict of interests dilemma> > > Lesley> > Ok, apologies, I know this message is from weeks ago, but only just got> around to reading it (have been a bit busy, falling in love) - but just want> to say that I take Edith seriously - I agree with what she says. In my> opinion, your opinions are waaay too extreme Lesley and somebody definately> needs to challenge them, and I reckon Edith does that very well, thank you> very much.> > Joeann> > > > Lesley Dove wrote:> > Like Angie says, we don't take Edith too seriously.> > > > > ----------> --> > Get personalised at My .> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 > Its funny. I've been away for a fortnight I've come back to the abortion debate that was running long before I left Actually no, this is a brand new debate that only started when you returned. An omen maybe? >Do vegans talk about anything else other than abortion. Well they hardly ever talking about practical vegan stuff, that's for sure. Anyone have any recipes? I went to Neal's Yard for the first time last Friday, the salad bar place. Guess I should mention that on the travel list though. > I sure hope so!!! While you were gone the list went over all biblical for a bit. then Yesterday we debated the emotions. And I comlained and whined a lot. So something don't change. Michael (Hey does anyone know of any good websites that would give advice on tounge related medical issues, basic diagnosis or lists of problems, that kind of thing. A long shot but I haven't been able to find much mesen.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 , joeann cantillon <goosy_gander> wrote: > > The way I see the argument its not about abortionists, its about freedom of choice - and Lesley et. al. wants to deny women the freedom of choice. This is the 21st century, for some of us at least, and freedom of speech, choice etc. has been with us quite some time and denying anybody that hard-earned freedom is wrong. It is up to the individual then to deal with and live with their own conscience. You or I have no right to impose our beliefs and/or prejudices on anybody else - I have as much right to my life as anybody else and I will not tell anybody else how to live theirs. I believe that is what yourself and Lesley etc. are proposing - telling others how to live, and I'm sorry but I've got to disagree with that. So, again I reiterate, its not about abortion, its about the underlying fredoom to choose. > Joeann > vegicate1 <simonpjones@o...> wrote: ---I still can't fathon the standpoint of abortionist,{to polite a > word}, anyway, I think it must be similiar to meat-eaters,war- > excepters and so on, It has to be a kind of psychopathic reasoning in > order to find it exceptable. > Lesley seems to be one of the few that can see sense in regards to > this subject on this list, > SP, > > > > In , " Lesley Dove " wrote: > > Well I will NOT apologise for being extremely in favour of > respecting > > everyone's right to life, but not everyone's right to kill. I think > vegans > > who kill their own offspring need to be challenged and from now on > I shall > > not let it go unchallenged among vegan families. Most people would > say we > > are too extreme as vegans, so how do you work out that I am extreme > for > > extending that respect to the unborn? I don't see it as any more > extreme > > than veganism itself. > > > > Lesley > > > > joeann cantillon [goosy_gander] > > 27 March 2002 15:46 > > > > RE: Conflict of interests dilemma > > > > > > Lesley > > > > Ok, apologies, I know this message is from weeks ago, but only > just got > > around to reading it (have been a bit busy, falling in love) - but > just want > > to say that I take Edith seriously - I agree with what she says. In > my > > opinion, your opinions are waaay too extreme Lesley and somebody > definately > > needs to challenge them, and I reckon Edith does that very well, > thank you > > very much. > > > > Joeann > > > > > > > > Lesley Dove wrote: > > > > Like Angie says, we don't take Edith too seriously. > > > > > > > > > > -- > -------- > > -- > > > > Get personalised at My . > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 - that would give > advice on tounge related medical issues, basic diagnosis or > lists of problems, Such as getting stuck in your cheek, perhaps? Brave Sir Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 , " Janey " <janey@p...> wrote: Do vegans talk about anything else other than abortion. I sure hope so!!! > > Janey > x Yeah, this severe interest in arguing about abortion is leading me to believe that there are a larger proportion of vegans who are suicidal, depressed, intensely religious, or so gone that they wouldn't care if someone told them that god was going to turn back the clock and abort them from their mother's womb at their time of birth than in other groups of people, and that is why its so much more controversial here. I'm only saying this because I sometimes feel that way as well, I and I know its because of the meat-eating dominated society that I live in. I like what lesley is arguing for because it makes me feel I need to stay alive for some reason. Really I can't afford to be against abortion anymore, otherwise I should really kill myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 Incidentally, does anyone listen to CONFLICT? the band? they're vegans, I think. They're certainly pro animal rights. Perhaps I'll load some of their songs onto my computer to listen to while I'm reading the abortion debate. , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > Yes we do, but I cannot understand such a glaring inconsistency in vegan > thinking as to support abortion as a choice! > > Lesley > > > Janey [janey@p...] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: Every time he mentioned animal experiments, I > could feel my face burning hot with the pent-up anger and humiliation that I > was feeling, because I felt I was letting down the animals by not arguing > with him, but I knew that he wanted to make me look bad and argumentative. Yeah I have often felt that dilemma, I think the only thing to do in those situations is ask questions, as calmly as possible, even controversial ones, depending what the situation is, and not answering back. If the speaker/teacher/nurse/whatever isn't constitent, he/she will slip, and hopefully think about what he/she is promoting. I once had to watch a video that promoted animal experimentation, I was boiling up with anger inside and wanted to say a lot of stuff, but i kept silent untill the question time at the end, and asked why the video hadn't interviewed scientists who were against vivisection as well as for. I couldn't even listen to his reply, I thought I was going to faint with exhaustion. (I'd spent the whole video trying to block it out whilst at the same time trying to find anything that was wrong with it so I could ask any questions, I was having trouble breathing). To my surprise another student who I know is a meat eater, blurted out, " yeah its so blatantly one-sided " . I didn't know whether she was agreeing with me, or disagreeing with me, or what, but she was right. It was one-sided, but there was nothing that said it in clear, obvious words. >I felt very isolated most of the time as a vegan in a very vegan > unfriendly area of the country. I was in North Wales and lots of my > colleagues were married to, or daughters of, farmers and saw my >veganism as > a threat to their families' livelihood, so I suffered a lot of >hatred for > being into animal rights. That must have been terrible. Seeing as they rely on imprisoning, using and killing animals for their own survival things are bound to be black and white. Compared to the college I am at, where there is a wide spectrum of people, it sounds like it must have been hell. > Is there no veggie/AR student group where you are? Where are you? I think there is, but am having trouble finding it. I'm not very good at meeting people or integrating into groups, with people I always been more of a " sheep " , whatever, although am very independant when not with other people and am fine in my own company. The people I am used to knowing are people I meet in organised places, under the mighty shadow of the government, (school, college, work) or family. I know that I should really be trying to break away from all this and meeting different people. But I find it compelling to try to be like everyone else who tries to be like everyone else (precisely because i know its wrong, and its not the way people, or me, should be) because I have an interest in sociology and am an observer as well; and it is (sadly) what I am best at. I think there are very few vegans who are this way. Look, I " get on " on with the people who are going to be businessmen, scientists (some of which I bet will test on animals), policians, lawyers, etc. I can't help it. Its all superficial within those kind of circles anyway, and if I'm masking a hate for all of these people it makes no difference because many of them are corrupt to the core. I went to a public school, I know ! (euuurgh) But am also trying to escape, and am redoing education in a state funded college, not just for my conscience and politics, but for the plain old reason that at public school I did arts A-levels when really I wanted to study science at A-levels, and also to compare the two forms of education. You might find it difficult to understand how much a system like an enclosed boarding school that is finely and skillfully designed to 'better' its pupils can be damaging if the pupil who has been through it wants to reject it. I feel damaged by it: on a subconscious level I have been 'told' who to be, who I should be friends with, how to get away with being two faced, how to socialise with people whose prime motivation in life is themselves and making 'contacts' with people. I'm not saying all public school educated people are like what I've just said, there are many who are very good people and would be good 'examples' as 'citizens'. But I am one of those people who doesn't want to ignore all the evil (to put it bluntly) that is going on, and chooses to find out things I don't want to find out (as you're vegan you will know what I mean). Thus, the 'good' people at my public school would stick togethor, and I went and hung around with those who will be (when my age group are middle aged) the cigar smoking usurpers of the law but who never get sent to prison for it. I was quite popular among them, perhaps because I try to be a compassionate and trusting person, qualities many of them are alien to. I don't think I realised exactly what I was doing, and how it would affect me. Many of these rich, middle-classed white males who I shared five years of cushy imprisonment with are out there now, smoking pot, hiring prostitutes, excluding themselves from normal society (yes, an old classmate (when I say old classmate, I don't mean someone I am happy to know) at uni told me him and his friends only go out on weekdays to 'avoid the plebs'(their words) who generally go out on weekends, admittedly he also said it was because they was scared of being beaten up, which they probably wouldn't be, but probably deserve to be), all the time while doing their degrees, with which, and thanks to their network of contacts they will be making lots of money. I wanted to leave public school after the first year. I didn't because of a huge mixture of things, partly insecurity, partly addiction to what I didn't like and refusal to ignore, partly because of my mother, but mostly I think because of having played too many roleplaying games as a child and thinking I could somehow change the world for better (and I was a vegetarian at the time). It has taken me two years to break away from them and to judge for myself what is right and wrong for me, I am still reeling. Someone from this public school wants to meet up with me for easter, I am scared, because I am no longer willing to make any compromises and now say what I think, and people with lots of contacts, money and power to me are truly scary people. So how I am going join a sab group, which I really, really want to do (its the only form of activism I'd be completely happy with, saving the life of an individual animal is a small but important consolation of the atrocities), well, manana maybe I'll find the courage. But I am fucked because I see right through the system from the perspective of those who use power, and money, and who glide through it regardless of the consequences to others (simply because of the situation they were born in) , and yet I also hate the system, I know what the consequences of power and money are, I know what it would take to change everything for good or for bad (and also know that its not realistic), I know what goes on behind the scenes in big businesses and in the minds of the wealthy because I have lived with them, I am constantly facing a duality with myself on what to do with myself: I don't want to meet people because i think I am dangerous to them. I don't want to kill myself because... I think I'll define the reasons as pro-life. I don't want to burn my public school down because i think revenge is futile, and also, again, I am, I suppose, pro-life. God I'm so glad I've gotten this off my chest. Even though I've tried to explain it to other people, another vegan is the only person I can explain it to properly. (If you reply please delete all but what is relevant of what I have written, not only for Mavreela, but also because the contents of what I wrote may be harmful to some people and possibly to myself). , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: > > I really feel for you, as someone who started nurse training and experienced > a lot of anti-vegan discrimination, and ended up being bullied out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 , " Lesley Dove " <Lesley@v...> wrote: my whole story is going on our website, I know, > manana, manana, sorry I don't know how to do the squiggly thing over the n! > If anyone wants me to email the whole tale to them, let me know. If you email it to me, I will read it. I won't put > it on this list as it's quite long. Yeah, sorry about long emails. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 you sound like someone who is not content with their lot... and so that makes you just as thoughtless as many other public school derivatives.... you had it lucky ... and more lucky than most people .. and you spent your time feeling guilty? ... some don't get a chance to be so lucky... (i'm thinking, here, of Ben Affleck's speech to Matt Damon in the film 'Good Will Hunting' at the end... watch it again to catch it if you missed it... or never saw it... cos i can't remember the words...) what's worse than a public school person being all high and mighty and networky... is a public school person trying to lower himself to become a non-public school person with all their powerlessness and poverty that entails ...except you'll never get there... you'd probably get on with your school chum because he thinks the same way as you and because none of you could ever share your mutual concerns... you don't like sheep ... so you don't participate? ... what's different about that and people who don't go out on Friday nights because others going out are plebs? still at least you seem aware to some degree... and you're moving in the right direction... (away from public school... - but public school will never go away... ) are Steiner schools vegetarian? Z > > Is there no veggie/AR student group where you are? Where are you? > > I think there is, but am having trouble finding it. I'm not very > good at meeting people or integrating into groups, with people I > always been more of a " sheep " , whatever, although am very > independant when not with other people and am fine in my own > company. The people I am used to knowing are people I meet in > organised places, under the mighty shadow of the government, > (school, college, work) or family. > But am also trying to escape, and am redoing education in a state > funded college, not just for my conscience and politics, but for the > plain old reason that at public school I did arts A-levels when > really I wanted to study science at A-levels, and also to compare > the two forms of education. You might find it difficult to > society (yes, an old classmate (when I say old classmate, I don't > mean someone I am happy to know) at uni told me him and his friends > only go out on weekdays to 'avoid the plebs'(their words) who > generally go out on weekends, admittedly he also said it was because > they was scared of being beaten up, which they probably wouldn't be, > but probably deserve to be), all the time while doing their degrees, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 , Oliver Slay <oliver@l...> wrote: You're the first person who has said something of the sort to me. (I think I'm going to turn gay as a statement) > you sound like someone who is not content with their lot... and so that > makes you just as thoughtless as many other public school derivatives.... Thoughtless? I think all the time, but i know what you mean. And I want you to know that that thoughtlessness is never going to go away, however much i try, and I haTE it, I don't want it, and i don't want to be myself. Maybe I should go and do a Barry Horne. > > you had it lucky ... and more lucky than most people .. and you spent your > time feeling guilty? WHAT my mother was born into a very, very poor working class family in Birmingham. She had to give her first child (my half brother)to a social worker because she wasn't educated about contraception, still living at her parents home, and the family couldn't afford to keep him, now the child has grown up and doesn't want to know her. Her second child the same, only she managed to get her back, only for this second child (my half sister) to walk out for six years, become a vegan anarchist, come back into my life and form an intense emotional relationship with me. YOU GO TO A PUBLIC SCHOOL, AND BE GRATEFUL, BUT THEY'RE JUST AS CLASS CONSCIOUS AS YOU ARE, AND YOU END UP LIKE THIS you're never going to hear what some public school people talk about amomng themselves if you haven't been to one, so you 're going to find it difficult to understand ME. " plebs " , the " working class " , the jokes about " plebs " and " working class " , the inability to speak out against them (because of the hypocrisy of being there in the first place), the fucking humiliation of being the only one in the whole school to be vegetarian for ethical reasons, the pent-up anger only PROVING to the others that they don't want to be vegetarians, because it doesn't APPEAR to be very self advancing. >... some don't get a chance to be so lucky... (yeah well. lucky. ow. ) (i'm > thinking, here, of Ben Affleck's speech to Matt Damon in the film 'Good Will > Hunting' at the end... watch it again to catch it if you missed it... or > never saw it... cos i can't remember the words...) Yeah I saw it. Yeah I noticed everyone's talking about films. I'll try to watch it again, but I'm short on money at the moment (I want to die).Whats this speech got to do with anything? I've got nothing to do with Will Hunting, he's fictious, and beats people up at the beginning (perhaps he wouldn't have beaten people up if he were vegan, har.) which I don't. > > what's worse than a public school person being all high and mighty and > networky... is a public school person trying to lower himself to become a > non-public school person with all their powerlessness and poverty that > entails ...except you'll never get there... Lower himself? Do you wish you had gone to a public school? OH YEAH BECAUSE I WANT TO GET THERE ??????(wherever the ! " £$%^ & *()_) (* & ^%$£$%^ & *(* & ^%$££ " $%^ & *()(* & ^%$£$%^ & *()* & ^%$%^ & *()_)(* & ^%$£%^ & *() (* & ^%$%^ & *()_)(* & ^%$%^ & *()_+_)(* & ^ & *()%$%^%$ " there " is). I also said that the other reason I went to this state funded college was that I studied Arts at my previous school and would rather have studied sciences. So I'm doing just that. Otherwise I would be in a university right now. > you'd probably get on with your school chum because he thinks the same way > as you and because none of you could ever share your mutual concerns... WELL HE EATS A LOT OF MEAT DAILY. I WAS IN A BAND WITH HIM, I DON'T WANT TO PLAY MUSIC ANYMORE. I HAD A DREAM THAT HE WAS GOING TO kill ME (helllllllpppppp....). > > you don't like sheep ... so you don't participate? ... what's different > about that and people who don't go out on Friday nights because others going > out are plebs? Who said i don't like sheep? Did I? Perhaps I said something along the lines of: I am a sheep like person, I am easily " herded " . I don't mind being a " clone " or sacrificing my individuality for society sometimes (i don't mind wearing a suit FOR FIVE YEARS I WORE A STRICT UNIFORM IN A STRICT SCHOOL THAT I'M " LUCKY " TO HAVE GONE TO). And then later I said, on a different topic completely, that I hated myself (for entirely different reasons), not the sheep status. I don't hate sheep, the animals. I feel nothing towards them, except that I shouldn't eat them, or drink their milk, or herd them. This one's for George Orwell: Fuck off, your book Animal Farm was shit, I only saw the cartoon anyway. I believe like many people that we are a mixture of what we are genetically and everything we have been exposed to throughout our lives. > > still at least you seem aware to some degree... so do you >and you're moving in the > right direction... Whether its the right direction or the wrong direction, it is the direction I am going in, unless I decide to change my direction. (away from public school... - but public school >will > never go away... ) I was on the verge of tears, shivering, angry, and my cat was walking in front of my screen when I was writing some of this. It will go away (public school)... I hope it will be before everything else does (you know, end of the world and all that) GET OFF YOUR ARSES AND THE INTERNET AND SOLVE SOME PROBLEMS, PEOPLE (Oh no oh no oh no oh no oh no what am I doing please please please someone help me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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