Guest guest Posted March 28, 2002 Report Share Posted March 28, 2002 i'm siding here with edith ... i guess they've never been raped... and never had to think about how they feel towards the rapist ... who has seeded your body ... and the associations of nasty man / nasty sperm that go round one's head... (not that i've ever been raped... i have been out with two raped women tho... so i empathise with this...) the feeling of having been dirtied... the feeling of disgust... the body naturally thinks clean... i must get this thing out of me... to then have someone tell you that if you even try that ... then you will be locked up for 12 years ... (because that feeling of uncleanliness is like unGodliness... and therefore you are not fit to be in society )... what utter crap! it's kind of the 'my dog's been hit by a car and i can't do anything... i can't kill him because i cannot take a life... so i shall let him die slowly in pain ...' mentality... > > slg edith [slgedith] > Thursday, March 28, 2002 2:46 PM > > Re: Edith the unborn Christian [ot] > > > Spare me the religion shit and try to stop writing gibberish. > > Do you agree with Leslie and the anti-woman Government of > Ireland that EVEN > a woman who has been raped should be FORCED to term? > > Just who is the " extremist " around here, people? > > > > " vegicate1 " <simonpjones > > > > > > Edith the unborn Christian [ot] > >Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:24:36 -0000 > > > >---The way you carry on one would think that women only get pregnant > >through rape!or that pregnancies somehow come about by accident or > >surprise,your agruments for denying people the right to live their > >lives from beginning to end is so distored and futile because they > >are based on extreme exceptions, May I ask if you were abused by a > >man as a child which has made you so turn against human birth from a > >women, how would you like people to be born? > >SP, > > > > > _______________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 ---As I said before no women would be sent to prison for being raped in Ireland,if you haven't noticed the catholic church worships mary not Jesus,and if you listen to some older irishs women that say " holy mary mother of God " I hate to say this but as a women loses the egg every month anyway, if a women ever did get raped, taking the morning after pill after the rape must be better than allowing a persons life start, then to end it soon after,in what some call abortion! It seems you are taking the view an abortionist/scientist would take, I assume then you must also agree with vivisectors/scientist, obviously they know best in your view! SP, In , " slg edith " <slgedith@h...> wrote: > Spare me the religion shit and try to stop writing gibberish. > > Do you agree with Leslie and the anti-woman Government of Ireland that EVEN > a woman who has been raped should be FORCED to term? > > Just who is the " extremist " around here, people? > > > > " vegicate1 " <simonpjones@o...> > > > > > > Edith the unborn Christian [ot] > >Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:24:36 -0000 > > > >---The way you carry on one would think that women only get pregnant > >through rape!or that pregnancies somehow come about by accident or > >surprise,your agruments for denying people the right to live their > >lives from beginning to end is so distored and futile because they > >are based on extreme exceptions, May I ask if you were abused by a > >man as a child which has made you so turn against human birth from a > >women, how would you like people to be born? > >SP, > > > > > _______________ > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 29, 2002 Report Share Posted March 29, 2002 Seeing as the abortion debate is never going to go away from this list, let me tell you about a true story where abortion DIDN'T happen. I'd be interested to hear the opinions of pro and against abortionists on this, because as real life is, it has so many sides and facets to it that I don't see how any extremist can work their way around it constitently. A woman I know had her first child at the age of 17. She was still living at home (with her parents and immediate family). This was in the early 1960s. The family were very poor, the woman in question was one of 5 brothers and sisters (3 brothers, 2 sisters). Her parents hadn't been educated about contraception, and neither had any of the kids. They weren't (as far as I know) very good parents, they would go to the pub togethor every evening and spend most of their crap wages on beer and would sing songs with all of their work mates, and the woman (I'll call her WomanA, like the case on TV) and her older brothers would have to wait outside the pub and play marbles until their parents came out. So womanA had a boyfriend at the age of 17, and accidentally got pregnant. With next to no education (she had left school at the age of 14 to earn money for the family), no-one had explained to her that sexual intercourse is what makes people pregnant. Sex was taboo at the time, well it was among the working class in the place that she lived, from what I gather from what she has told me. Her parents had told her some lie that the doctor brings babies to families in his suitcase. She hid her pregnancy from everyone, I think right up until the last few weeks. Her boyfriend left her when he found out, and vanished. When her parents found out, they threatened to throw her out of the home (they were very poor, I think it was partly for money reasons). She was understandably depressed and confused, the social services came round, and told her she had to give the baby away to a foster home. This went through. She wasn't allowed to see the baby, I think, and I think she tried to commit suicide by eating lots of pills, which didn't work. Anyway womanA managed to get on with her life, finding different jobs etc. The rock n roll revolution came about with the mods and rockers etc. I think she was 21, when she met a new boyfriend. She was now aware of what makes babies I think, and you could call it naïve form the perspective of hindsight, but really she'd had no love during her upbringing and so she fell in love with this second bloke. But this second guy was young and crazy, and again neither of them were educated about or even knew about contraception, she got pregnant again, and he, like the first one, didn't want the responsibility of being a father. So he left her, and the almighty wannabe good doers who call themselves the social services (I am trying hard to keep my personal opinion out of this, its difficult) proclaimed that she was too poor, and being single not suitable to bring up a child. They gave her second child to a foster family, and told her that she could have her daughter back when she was deemed acceptable by them to bring up a child. So she worked more and more, she did night-time teacher training in her spare time. She would often visit her daughter, who was too young to understand anything at the time. But, so womanA tells me, the foster woman was very protective of the girl. The foster woman would make up all sorts of trash to try and put her daughter off her biological mother, saying that the woman who came round to visit was an evil witch, who wanted to steal her from home. WomanA in the meantime had managed to find a stable relationship, and was now using contraception, I think. She applied to the social services to get her daughter back and they refused, saying that the daughter had been too long in the new family. She went round to the foster parents' house, I'm not sure what happened, except that she didn't manage to get her child back. She didn't know what to do, she didn't know anything about court cases and red tape, (and was influenced by fear of the authorities?) and I think she felt she had no choice but to carry on and forget. More than a decade passed, and although she would send her daughter Christmas and birthday cards + presents, she never saw her, and carried a huge burden of guilt and sorrow with her. She didn't tell anyone about her first child, because she was scared about what people would think, and would tell very few people about her second child. She got into another relationship, and had a third child, this time her man stayed with her and they formed a relatively stable family. When daughter who had been fostered was sixteen, and had asked enough questions and found enough courage to think and find out for herself who her real mother was, she left the foster home, and went to live with womanA. This might have been one of the happiest times of womanA's life. She had spent most of her adult life deprived of fulfilling her maternal instincts, now she had a son, and her daughter had come back to her. But you might be able to imagine the situation: womanA had very little experience of bringing up children (her third child was only 3), and her daughter was in the prime of her teens, had just discovered that the woman she thought was her mother had been lying to her all her life (and her partner, who she still has, although faithful, is very lazy, and unauthoritarian). Basically womanA smothered her daughter with too much love, in a very inexperienced way, like treating her like a child, expecting her to look smart, well I won't go into it. And her daughter, being sixteen, wanted to go and have fun. Plus it was the mid-eighties and the punk movement was `flourishing' (if that's the way to put it), and scores of disillusioned youths with similar broken backgrounds would hit the streets and be chaotic and disorderly 24 hours a day. After just one and a half years, arguments in the home occurred, and the daughter left home, and broke contact with womanA. WomanA's partner and father of her child then inherited some money, and they moved away. Six years later womanA managed to find her daughter through the Good Samaritans, and the daughter decided to come back into contact with the family. (she didn't tell womanA, but it was only to see her brother again, who she had really loved when she'd been living with womanA's family). Now her daughter in six years had decided who and what she really wanted to be. She came back with pink hair, a tattoo, several ear piercings and lots of finger rings, vegan, talking feminism and anarchisms and rolling fags. She got on really well with her younger half-brother, they talked a lot, rediscovered the past, she bitched about her mother and the system a lot, he acted as a go-between. Things are slowly sorting themselves out. They got in contact with their older half-brother and went for a drink with him a couple of times. He's married, and has children, but doesn't want to meet his biological mother, his foster family are a really decent bunch of folk, as far as families go. His body is covered in tattoos. Here's the bit related to abortion and whatever all you ponses think about it: The sister, who doesn't mind about speaking her opinion as well, last time I spoke to her about it was totally against any laws on abortion (ie she says if anyone wants to have an abortion they can). She might have changed that opinion since I last spoke to her about it. If so, so what. She also said in an intimate meeting with womanA her biological mother, that she is glad that womanA didn't abort her (ie she enjoys life). The sister is a very decent person in that she is willing to accept her own hypocrisy on abortion, and other matters of which she is opinionated as well (eg she is anti-pollution and yet will still travel on planes, which cause a lot of damage to the atmosphere). No- one can avoid hypocrisy totally. The older brother, who I haven't spoken to about abortion with, would probably have been aborted if he were born under the same circumstances today. But I do know that now he has kids and he enjoys life. The mother, womanA, has never gotten over the whole thing, and never will. She's got an eating disorder, she's still got the guilt of the feeling of having let her children down, she still wishes she could change the past, and change her children into who she wants them to be, to have had some effect on their lives (she hates their tattoos). But she's still alive, and she is a very lonely person, her husband, although extremely kind and caring, is a solitary person, unsociable. The younger brother has severe problems coping with all of this, and although has tried to comfort his mother has to find some other way of dealing with it, he has not got a magic wand. He's devoted a lot of time to consoling her, and tries to be what his mother wants him to be, but fails. He won't seek help from social services because he really doesn't trust them, he won't seek help by paying for a counsellor because he doesn't think money is going to solve anything. He's also got problems of his own. One is his decision to become vegan. He is unusual as a vegan, because he is vegan for ethical reasons, but knows deep inside him that if his sister hadn't come back into his life, he wouldn't have become one. He knows this because he's got used to observing other people, and notices that everything possible is done to stop people thinking about things, and unless something out of the ordinary happens in their life, it is very unlikely that they will set their own " vegan snowball " rolling: He thinks he was the victim of a snowball effect, in that his sister set his " vegan snowball " rolling that would cause him to find out more and more of what he didn't know about the meat and dairy industry, ethics, religion, hypocrisy and health. Ok, I'm him, I'm the third child, and I'm using the anynomity of the internet to expose my problems to indulge in some self analysis, and to try to steal some help and counselling from you, I'm guilty. I don't care if its cheesy. I'd call it scheese. And I really don't have a problem with you arguing about abortion. If anything has come of it, it has been a reminder of things from my past that have been buried that will probably cause me to again try bringing it all up with my mother again, or maybe get her to see someone about it. It might cause some arguments, some pain and anguish, some more turmoil. It might have some beneficial effects. It won't solve everything, it'll probably make it less complicated. I don't know. Because I don't know, I'm telling you the whole thing, serves you damn well right. (of course there is the matter of exposing my family, but I trust you all as people who have dedicated a lot of their lives to being compassionate; and would rather post this than pay someone to analyse and listen to me, short of finding it sick, I don't think it would help, frankly) But if you are really opinionated on abortion, and were doing as much as you could to carry out those beliefs by taking actions, would you still be arguing over one case in Ireland to people whose views you know you are not going to change? Or are you of the belief that taking too much action in real life about things you believe in is wrong? , " vegicate1 " <simonpjones@o...> wrote: > ---As I said before no women would be sent to prison for being raped > in Ireland,if you haven't noticed the catholic church worships mary > not Jesus,and if you listen to some older irishs women that say " holy > mary mother of God " > I hate to say this but as a women loses the egg every month anyway, > if a women ever did get raped, taking the morning after pill after > the rape must be better than allowing a persons life start, then to > end it soon after,in what some call abortion! > It seems you are taking the view an abortionist/scientist would take, > I assume then you must also agree with vivisectors/scientist, > obviously they know best in your view! > SP, > > > > > In , " slg edith " <slgedith@h...> wrote: > > Spare me the religion shit and try to stop writing gibberish. > > > > Do you agree with Leslie and the anti-woman Government of Ireland > that EVEN > > a woman who has been raped should be FORCED to term? > > > > Just who is the " extremist " around here, people? > > > > > > > " vegicate1 " <simonpjones@o...> > > > > > > > > > Edith the unborn Christian [ot] > > >Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:24:36 -0000 > > > > > >---The way you carry on one would think that women only get > pregnant > > >through rape!or that pregnancies somehow come about by accident or > > >surprise,your agruments for denying people the right to live their > > >lives from beginning to end is so distored and futile because they > > >are based on extreme exceptions, May I ask if you were abused by a > > >man as a child which has made you so turn against human birth from > a > > >women, how would you like people to be born? > > >SP, > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: > http://messenger.msn.com Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2002 Report Share Posted March 30, 2002 Uh, hello Mr Christian but to the Church and Leslie the morning after pill IS ABORTION and not an option for a woman, even if she been raped and abortion in Ireland IS ILLEGAL, EVEN IF A WOMAN BEEN RAPED and she can sent to prison for up to twelve years if she attempts an illegal abortion. The only lawful abortion in Ireland is where the life of the woman is threatened, including by mental illness. The Government proposed excluding mental ill health so a woman who was suicidaly depressed after being raped would still have been forced to term with no lawful way out!!! You are ignorant of the facts, Mr Christian. Extremely ignorant. Please do not bother me with any more of your gibberish as I find it rather tiresome. Edith French " vegicate1 " <simonpjones > > > Re: Edith the unborn Christian [ot] >Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:30:16 -0000 > >---As I said before no women would be sent to prison for being raped >in Ireland,if you haven't noticed the catholic church worships mary >not Jesus,and if you listen to some older irishs women that say " holy >mary mother of God " >I hate to say this but as a women loses the egg every month anyway, >if a women ever did get raped, taking the morning after pill after >the rape must be better than allowing a persons life start, then to >end it soon after,in what some call abortion! >It seems you are taking the view an abortionist/scientist would take, >I assume then you must also agree with vivisectors/scientist, >obviously they know best in your view! >SP, > > > > >In , " slg edith " <slgedith@h...> wrote: > > Spare me the religion shit and try to stop writing gibberish. > > > > Do you agree with Leslie and the anti-woman Government of Ireland >that EVEN > > a woman who has been raped should be FORCED to term? > > > > Just who is the " extremist " around here, people? > > > > > > > " vegicate1 " <simonpjones@o...> > > > > > > > > > Edith the unborn Christian [ot] > > >Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:24:36 -0000 > > > > > >---The way you carry on one would think that women only get >pregnant > > >through rape!or that pregnancies somehow come about by accident or > > >surprise,your agruments for denying people the right to live their > > >lives from beginning to end is so distored and futile because they > > >are based on extreme exceptions, May I ask if you were abused by a > > >man as a child which has made you so turn against human birth from >a > > >women, how would you like people to be born? > > >SP, > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: >http://messenger.msn.com > _______________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted March 30, 2002 Report Share Posted March 30, 2002 ---MISS EDITH'S EDEN, LETS JUST SAY THIS ,IF A WOMAN GOT RAPED AND THERE WAS A BIG CHANCE THAT SHE WOULD BECOME PREGNANT AND SHE DIDN'T WANT THE BABY AND GIVING BIRTH TO THE BABY WOULD BE TO MUCH FOR HER,ALL I WAS SAYING WAS IN SUCH EXTREME, RARE CASES,AS A WOMAN LOSE'S THE EGG NATURALLY EVERY MONTH ANYWAY IT MIGHT BE THE LESSER OF TWO EVILS TO ALLOW THE EGG TO BE LOST SOONER, THAN TO WAIT UNTIL THE EGG HAS BEEN FERTIZED AND THE HUMAN BEINGS' LIFE SET IN MOTION,AND THAN TO KILL IT!!!BEFORE YOU RUN AWAY PLEASE ANSWER THE QUESTION " WHY WOULD YOU TAKE THE ADVICE OF A SCIENTIST/ABORTIONIST AND NOT THE ADVICE OF A SCIENTIST/VIVISECTIONIST " ? P.S THE DAY A WOMAN IS SENT TO PRISON FOR HAVING AN ABORTION AFTER BEING RAPED IN IRELAND IS THE DAY THE VATICAN AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH USE JESUS AS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH!!! SP, In , " slg edith " <slgedith@h...> wrote: > Uh, hello Mr Christian but to the Church and Leslie the morning after pill > IS ABORTION and not an option for a woman, even if she been raped and > abortion in Ireland IS ILLEGAL, EVEN IF A WOMAN BEEN RAPED and she can sent > to prison for up to twelve years if she attempts an illegal abortion. The > only lawful abortion in Ireland is where the life of the woman is > threatened, including by mental illness. The Government proposed excluding > mental ill health so a woman who was suicidaly depressed after being raped > would still have been forced to term with no lawful way out!!! You are > ignorant of the facts, Mr Christian. Extremely ignorant. Please do not > bother me with any more of your gibberish as I find it rather tiresome. > > Edith French > > " vegicate1 " <simonpjones@o...> > > > > > > Re: Edith the unborn Christian [ot] > >Fri, 29 Mar 2002 12:30:16 -0000 > > > >---As I said before no women would be sent to prison for being raped > >in Ireland,if you haven't noticed the catholic church worships mary > >not Jesus,and if you listen to some older irishs women that say " holy > >mary mother of God " > >I hate to say this but as a women loses the egg every month anyway, > >if a women ever did get raped, taking the morning after pill after > >the rape must be better than allowing a persons life start, then to > >end it soon after,in what some call abortion! > >It seems you are taking the view an abortionist/scientist would take, > >I assume then you must also agree with vivisectors/scientist, > >obviously they know best in your view! > >SP, > > > > > > > > > >In , " slg edith " <slgedith@h...> wrote: > > > Spare me the religion shit and try to stop writing gibberish. > > > > > > Do you agree with Leslie and the anti-woman Government of Ireland > >that EVEN > > > a woman who has been raped should be FORCED to term? > > > > > > Just who is the " extremist " around here, people? > > > > > > > > > > " vegicate1 " <simonpjones@o...> > > > > > > > > > > > > Edith the unborn Christian [ot] > > > >Thu, 28 Mar 2002 14:24:36 -0000 > > > > > > > >---The way you carry on one would think that women only get > >pregnant > > > >through rape!or that pregnancies somehow come about by accident or > > > >surprise,your agruments for denying people the right to live their > > > >lives from beginning to end is so distored and futile because they > > > >are based on extreme exceptions, May I ask if you were abused by a > > > >man as a child which has made you so turn against human birth from > >a > > > >women, how would you like people to be born? > > > >SP, > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________ > > > Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: > >http://messenger.msn.com > > > > > > > _______________ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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